Sheik patch 1.1.0 changes - CONFIRMED

[WondrousMoose]

Holy crap, it's a string of Pokemon avatars. I don't actually have anything to contribute.

 

[Project Crysis]

So far the change in sheik's fair doesn't seem to have changed much off her combos. Though on Mario, Sheik's fair to bouncing fish connects at 30% and up idk if that worked before, if it did someone let me know so I can avoid looking stupid in the future.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So far the change in sheik's fair doesn't seem to have changed much off her combos. Though on Mario, Sheik's fair to bouncing fish connects at 30% and up idk if that worked before, if it did someone let me know so I can avoid looking stupid in the future.

I checked post-patch and the combo started as early as 16%; it all depends on the hit and positioning.

 

[Project Crysis]

I checked post-patch and the combo started as early as 16%; it all depends on the hit and positioning.

That's great since it deals more than f-throw to bouncing and is slightly easier to land.

 

[W.A.C.]

I've tried think of how Shiek could be nerfed to where she no longer invalidates about 70% of the roster, but would still be an extremely strong top ten character that's still very much Shiek.

-Revert her needles to her Brawl needles. From what I've heard, it sounds like it was a decent projectile in Brawl, but not some move that trashed a ton of characters at neutral. As of right now, her needles are a nightmare for most of the roster to deal with. Adding more end lag probably would be a lousy way of changing her needles since that move already has a lot of end lag.
-Add more landing lag to bouncing fish. Wouldn't affect her combo potential as it's a finisher move, but makes her best kill option more punishable. A good comparison is Meta knight's best two kill moves, his forward smash and up special. His forward smash was designed to be both a great kill move and a combo starter, so adding end lag to it would hurt its versatility. His up special on the other hand is designed to be a finisher that has a great reward if you hit with it, but is super punishable if you fail to do so. Bouncing fish essentially falls in the latter category, except it can be a difficult move to punish. Both moves are designed to true combo from grabs and their best aerial combo tools (MK's up air and Shiek's fair).
-Reduce the distance of her up special. Very few characters have the ability to edge guard Shiek effectively because her two recovery moves are some of her best kill moves. They're extremely safe recovery moves that allow her to recover from practically anything. If they reduced the distance her up special could travel by about 25%, she would still have one of the safest recovery moves in the game that doesn't affect its kill power AND would still allow her to recovery well in most off stage situations.

Nerfs absolutely suck and if I had it my way, balance patches would've been handled in a way where the roster was just buffed to be near Diddy's and Shiek's level in 1.04., but they didn't go that route so this is the best I could come up with.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Do you mean landing lag, or the fair itself has 11

Her landing lag with Fair is 11 now instead of 10, however you can auto-cancel it so you have no lag

 

[S_B]

Sheik is fine. You have to work for your kills and she dies easily. Yeah, you rack up tons of damage, but it takes forever to kill someone when most of the roster has easier kill moves overall.

Of course, Shiek is fine. She's doing GREAT.

It's the characters she invalidates that aren't doing so hot.

The problem is not that Shiek has to work for kills (though that 50/50 down throw makes it easier). The problem is that EVERYONE ELSE has to work for kills against Shiek. Shiek is both a highly offensive AND defensive character at the same time.

She has excellent evasion, some of the only moves in the game that are safe on shield, does amazing in neutral, and can force opponents to approach with needles (or at the very least, you cannot camp Shiek). That, plus her crazy speed and AMAZING frame data (the best defense in this game can be a good offense, after all) makes her incredibly hard to kill, especially for heavyweights who are often lucky if they can land any hits at all.

Hell, the first thing it says about Bowser in the Shiek matchup thread is "I love Bowser but he can't be played almost for this matchup alone."

I'm not trying to say that every low-mid tier would rise if Shiek weren't in the game, but a LOT of them actually would.

Again, I don't know what could fix it, though, as the thing I love about SSB4 more than any other game is how unique all of the characters play (except for clones, of course), and if we took away some of the things that make Shiek unique, she'd basically become Captain Falcon.

The other problem is that Sheik shines in competitive play but is probably middling at best in casual play, meaning any nerfs would have to be in places where competitive players would feel it but not casuals.

Maybe a bit less distance traveled on aerial vanish or to have the initial startup of the move take longer, thus making Shiek a bit more gimpable off stage (and it's already plenty hard to just get Shiek off the stage to start with for many characters).

As I said, they could add 5 frames of lag to most of Shiek's moves and then make all of those moves kill 50% earlier, but then she'd basically be Cpt. Falcon. :\

 

[Zankoku]

Unless you're European, it's not spelled Shiek.

 

[Project Crysis]

Why are we still on the topic of nerfing Sheik, we understand stand she didn't really get nerfed and some of you don't like that but get over it.

 

[Bujuhh]

Of course, Shiek is fine. She's doing GREAT.

It's the characters she invalidates that aren't doing so hot.

The problem is not that Shiek has to work for kills (though that 50/50 down throw makes it easier). The problem is that EVERYONE ELSE has to work for kills against Shiek. Shiek is both a highly offensive AND defensive character at the same time.

:\

Hate to burst your bubble but there HAS to be a best character in the game, theres no avoiding it. If they nerf sheik into oblivion then another character will step up into her spot and dominate the rest of the cast. Its just the way things work. Sure it sucks that characters are invalidated because of a certain best character, and it would be great if every character was viable but that is not the case. There will always be characters that arent really usable and thats just how things are :/ What we really need is not nerfs, but buffs to the lower tiers instead. That would help the game much more than just "OmG shEiK is OP nerfffff!!!!!!!!" (and Im not talking about you, im talking about the community in general )

Also had to point this out because its bothing me... its Sheik not Shiek <.<

 

[S_B]

Hate to burst your bubble but there HAS to be a best character in the game, theres no avoiding it. If they nerf sheik into oblivion then another character will step up into her spot and dominate the rest of the cast. Its just the way things work.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

If Shiek were removed from the game, Diddy's frame data isn't going to magically improve itself. Might more players flock to Diddy? Sure, but if he's not the one invalidating a large chunk of the cast, those cast members will become more viable (probably not massively so, but still more viable).

Not saying that Sheik is to blame for everything: many of the lower tiers are there because they need tweaks and buffs of their own and we're slowly seeing them receive those tweaks.

But in the end, it'd be easier to nerf the best characters down to mid tier than it would be to try to bring the 30+ other characters up to high tier, especially when doing so would very likely result in overpowering those characters in casual play.

But truth be told, I'd be surprised if we actually saw any more Sheik nerfs. Sakurai has made it clear that he's balancing the game for group play more than competitive play (even though it IS possible to do both) and the fact that Shiek dominates at the high end probably means very little to him in the long run.

 

[Absol]

Why would you add more lag to bouncing fish when you can easily get a huge punish by spotdodging it. You had the reaction time to shield it, now start spotdodging it. I'm waiting for the day people start doing this because bouncing fish is NOT safe unless your opponent is shielding it. Like stated above buff the lower characters to bring them up instead of just nerfing good characters. In any competive fighter its the high tiers that strive the most. Be thankful this tier list isn't like brawl where it was strictly based on how well you did against meta knight. But you know whatever. This thread was about sheiks changes and I think it served its purpose.

 

[ArikadoSD]

The thing is, the characters that Sheik 'invalidates' also do terrible against all other top tiers..

@ S_B you mentioned Bowser, but Bowser eats **** against all of: Rosalina, Luigi, ZSS, and probably Pikachu. It just so happens that Sheik is another bad matchup and she's also the #1.. I don't get the point there.

All other heavies are also eaten alive by Luigi and ZSS.

 

[S_B]

Why would you add more lag to bouncing fish when you can easily get a huge punish by spotdodging it.

I'm unclear: was this aimed at me? I never said anything about bouncing fish so I'm assuming not...

BF is actually a very well balanced move: most of the time, you can see it coming so Sheik players need to pick the right time to use it and, as you said, a spotdodge means it can be HEAVILY punished.

The thing is, the characters that Sheik 'invalidates' also do terrible against all other top tiers..

@ S_B you mentioned Bowser, but Bowser eats **** against all of: Rosalina, Luigi, ZSS, and probably Pikachu. It just so happens that Sheik is another bad matchup and she's also the #1.. I don't get the point there.

All other heavies are also eaten alive by Luigi and ZSS.

Oh, I know. As I said, it's not JUST Sheik that's the issue here. Just making a point about how some characters can heavily invalidate large parts of the roster.

But more to the point (like I also said), I think this mild nerf (and some are saying it's a buff when sweetspotted) means that we're probably not going to see (m)any future Sheik nerfs. Sakurai doesn't balance around the highest levels but at the levels where the most players are playing.

So be happy, Sheik mains, it coulda been a lot worse...

 

[ArikadoSD]

With the minimal changes in this patch (other than Fox's sad nerf) i'm hoping that it indicates it's the last balance patch or one of the last at least.

 

[S_B]

With the minimal changes in this patch (other than Fox's sad nerf) i'm hoping that it indicates it's the last balance patch or one of the last at least.

Wellllll..... I wouldn't call this patch minimal.

Have you seen the full list of changes?

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

I'd say balancing (of the lower tiers especially) is still ongoing. I mean, DK has a hoo-haa kill ~67% on many of the fastfallers now (including Sheik)... 0_0

I'd say that evidence points to Sakurai and co being mostly happy with where the higher tiers are right now (Diddy's Dsmash was buffed after all). Who knows? Maybe they really WILL try to buff the lower tiers instead of nerfing higher tiers...

And with the continued addition of DLC characters, I doubt we'll stop seeing balance patches until SSB5 appears on the horizon, but I think this means they're mostly happy with where Sheik is now.

 

[Absol]

Everyone is happy when a low tier gets a buff, and not everyone is happy when a high tier gets a nerf. Knowing sakurais motives despite his trolly endeavors, understands this.

 

[Bujuhh]

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

If Shiek were removed from the game, Diddy's frame data isn't going to magically improve itself. Might more players flock to Diddy? Sure, but if he's not the one invalidating a large chunk of the cast, those cast members will become more viable (probably not massively so, but still more viable).

Not saying that Sheik is to blame for everything: many of the lower tiers are there because they need tweaks and buffs of their own and we're slowly seeing them receive those tweaks.

But in the end, it'd be easier to nerf the best characters down to mid tier than it would be to try to bring the 30+ other characters up to high tier, especially when doing so would very likely result in overpowering those characters in casual play.

But truth be told, I'd be surprised if we actually saw any more Sheik nerfs. Sakurai has made it clear that he's balancing the game for group play more than competitive play (even though it IS possible to do both) and the fact that Shiek dominates at the high end probably means very little to him in the long run.

You say that but it just doesnt make any sense. If sheik is removed from the game, Rosa would be the best character in the game as of now. Then what would low tier players do? They would complain about rosa. "omg nerf rosa shes too strong" Then say you remove rosa. Then you have luigi and pikachu and low tier character players complaing "omg nerf them they are too strong". Its just an endless cycle of complaining and demanding nerfs because that player is too lazy to adapt and git gud to be able to beat that character or just switch to a better character. Again, it would be awesome if every character in the game was viable but thats not the case. Some characters are just inferior to other characters unfortunately and you just have to deal with that.

 

[W.A.C.]

Both Rosalina and Shiek invalidate a lot of characters. The big difference is Rosalina has actual bad matchups.

 

[S_B]

You say that but it just doesnt make any sense. If sheik is removed from the game, Rosa would be the best character in the game as of now.

First of all, I'm not actually suggesting the removal of any characters from the game. I feel the need to clarify that.

Second, I'm also not saying that there aren't characters that still give lower tiers a whole pile of trouble (I mentioned this earlier, in fact).

What I AM saying is that, if Diddy's matchup with DK is 70:30 and Rosalina's matchup with DK is 60:40, removing Diddy from the game doesn't suddenly make Rosa's matchup with DK 70:30.

Sheik's matchups are what they are, and it's entirely possible that tweaking a top tier character in the right way will change matchups around a great deal and push some lower characters toward viability.

...Which is why we cannot simply resign ourselves to the idea of, "Well, there will always be a best character in the game, so whatevs!"

The best character in the game can still be the best in the game while having only 55:45 matchups across the board instead of many of them being 70:30 or better (and no, I've not looked up the actual matchup ratios in a while, just making a point).

Some characters are just inferior to other characters unfortunately and you just have to deal with that.

...Or look forward to balance patches working to change this fact (which they slowly but surely are).

Ultimately, "perfect" balance in a fighting game is impossible by definition, but the developer can work to close the matchup gaps a bit more and it SEEMS like Sakurai and co are at least trying to do that.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Both Rosalina and Shiek invalidate a lot of characters. The big difference is Rosalina has actual bad matchups.

This talk about "invalidating" characters needs to stop. By virtue of being a high-tier character, Sheik "invalidates" low-tier characters. That's just how it works. To complain about Sheik's lack of bad matchups is irrelevant, as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.
Do you want to beat Sheik? Learn Lucario. Learn Mario. Get good. If you were using a living turd with 300-frame attacks against her and complaining about Sheik, I'd be only slightly more annoyed.
If you want to talk about invalidating characters, look at Melee Sheik, whose chain grab literally made half the cast useless.

 

[S_B]

This talk about "invalidating" characters needs to stop. By virtue of being a high-tier character, Sheik "invalidates" low-tier characters. That's just how it works. To complain about Sheik's lack of bad matchups is irrelevant, as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.
Do you want to beat Sheik? Learn Lucario. Learn Mario. Get good. If you were using a living turd with 300-frame attacks against her and complaining about Sheik, I'd be only slightly more annoyed.
If you want to talk about invalidating characters, look at Melee Sheik, whose chain grab literally made half the cast useless.

I'm sorry, but "invalidate" is still very much the correct term. You don't need to have a 0-death combo on a character in order to make labbing with that character a general exercise in futility. If the skill gap needed to beat one character with another character is THAT much higher, there's no point to attempting to main that character (at least not with any real expectations of taking tournaments).

No, the character balance in this game isn't anywhere near as bad as it was in Melee and Brawl, but that doesn't mean that a Shulk main can realistically hope to get into top 8 at Evo.

as a character who has poor matchups against bad characters is then not high-tier and is certainly not the best in the game.

This actually isn't strictly true, either.

A character can have great matchups against all but one other character and still be the best in the game, by far, unless that one other character also has lots of great matchups.

I'm not sure if a situation like that has ever actually existed, but if Sheik got trounced by, say, Ganondorf (which certainly isn't true), it doesn't magically make Ganon #1, just a good counterpick against Sheik and ONLY Sheik.

 

[Absol]

Can we lock this thread already lol

 

[Bujuhh]

First of all, I'm not actually suggesting the removal of any characters from the game. I feel the need to clarify that.

Second, I'm also not saying that there aren't characters that still give lower tiers a whole pile of trouble (I mentioned this earlier, in fact).

What I AM saying is that, if Diddy's matchup with DK is 70:30 and Rosalina's matchup with DK is 60:40, removing Diddy from the game doesn't suddenly make Rosa's matchup with DK 70:30.

Nono I think you misunderstood me heh. I was saying "if you remove ___" in theory referring to when you said "if sheik is removed from the game people flock to diddy..etc"

And also they are getting slightly better with buffing the low tier characters who need buffs which is a good sign. We need more of that and less nerfs. If something is just stupidly broken, then yes nerf it but there arent many, if any at all, stupidly broken things right now and the more low tier buffs we get and people gradually getting better will make people realize that what they previously thought was broken isnt actually broken, they just had to learn how to adapt to it.

 

[S_B]

Nono I think you misunderstood me heh. I was saying "if you remove ___" in theory referring to when you said "if sheik is removed from the game people flock to diddy..etc"

Ah, I understand now.

Yes, that will DEFINITELY happen. Whether or not there's any real merit to the complaining is...generally well handled by the competitive community (generally).

Even if the game was actually 100% balanced, we'd still see complaints. I think tournament results ultimately give the real lay of the land, though.

And also they are getting slightly better with buffing the low tier characters who need buffs which is a good sign. We need more of that and less nerfs. If something is just stupidly broken, then yes nerf it but there arent many, if any at all, stupidly broken things right now and the more low tier buffs we get and people gradually getting better will make people realize that what they previously thought was broken isnt actually broken, they just had to learn how to adapt to it.

This is true, and frankly, I once was of the opinion that we had to let the meta have more time to develop, but these days, players are AMAZING at figuring out where the potential a character lies and exploiting it.

For example, they found DK's new guaranteed hoo-haa kill at 67% day 1, I believe...

 

[Aquatics]

the patch notes are so good!

 

[ArikadoSD]

Can we lock this thread already lol

@Tristan_win save us pls

 

[Cyn]

@Tristan_win save us pls

You're doomed!!!

 

[ShinRamen]

stay strong guys

 

[S_B]

@Tristan_win save us pls

Save you from WHAT, exactly? Discussing Sheik's changes and whether or not Sheik needs further changes, as well as the overall scope of changes to other characters that will directly affect Sheik?

I mean, I'd want to know about it if another character just got a 67% hoo-haa kill on my main, but okay...

 

[Cyn]

What needs to be done is that a patch thread needs to be created that catalogues all the patch changes per update. This hypothetical thread would be stickied.

 

[Absol]

This thread turned from patch notes and how sheik should adapt to match up/tier speculations and "what ifs"

 

[ArikadoSD]

Okay if we really wanna discuss new matchups, how is Robin shaping up?

The mu against robin used to be pretty damn bad for Robin if the Sheik player is smart not to approach in neutral, because otherwise Levin Sword just eats us alive, and now it's probably scarier than ever with the new buffs.

I haven't really looked in-detail at the buffs or played a Robin/seen one play but I've seen a few clips and heard about the buffs and apparently she can do stuff like dthrow uair at kill percents and dthrow jab, and arcthunder > arcfire > uair or usmash is a true combo and it is extremely scary because that racks up a lot of damage AND kills ridiculously early, 80% range.

 

[Absol]

We have a match up thread that would beneficial to all if we kept it there instead of s thread that will get pushed under

 

[Cyn]

This thread turned from patch notes and how sheik should adapt to match up/tier speculations and "what ifs"

I suppose you are correct, the discussion should stay along the lines of patch notes. Any other discussion needs to be taken to the appropriate threads.

Okay if we really wanna discuss new matchups, how is Robin shaping up?

The mu against robin used to be pretty damn bad for Robin if the Sheik player is smart not to approach in neutral, because otherwise Levin Sword just eats us alive, and now it's probably scarier than ever with the new buffs.

I haven't really looked in-detail at the buffs or played a Robin/seen one play but I've seen a few clips and heard about the buffs and apparently she can do stuff like dthrow uair at kill percents and dthrow jab, and arcthunder > arcfire > uair or usmash is a true combo and it is extremely scary because that racks up a lot of damage AND kills ridiculously early, 80% range.

No!!!! MU thread!!

 

[Illuminose]

can we get a new matchup thread

I'll do it, idc, or someone else do it, but we should actually have an organized thread with discussion periods to go over specific matchups

I'm also up for doing the patch notes thread sticky thing, I'll do what @ Cyn said for that

 

[Cyn]

I'm all for organization, but all of these tips, ideas, and general comments should be in the social thread.

Patch discussion.....GO!!

 

[WondrousMoose]

What needs to be done is that a patch thread needs to be created that catalogues all the patch changes per update. This hypothetical thread would be stickied.

I'll make one. I'm posting here so that no one else starts one and we end up with two.

 

[Cyn]

I'll make one. I'm posting here so that no one else starts one and we end up with two.

Thank you moose.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm closing this thread as it has long deviated from discussion about the (minor) changes to Sheik in this patch and since gone into tier theory, which is never a fun direction to derail a topic into.