Sheik patch 1.1.0 changes - CONFIRMED

[W.A.C.]

The only move of Shiek's that I absolutely hate is her damn needles. They're so insanely fast that they just destroy a lot of characters at neutral. If her needles were reverted to her Brawl needles, I really wouldn't have any issues with this character at this point. Her grabs can be obnoxious as well, but they're not Luigi or Mario stupid, and the nerf to her fair will probably make her combos out of grabs seem less ridiculous. Luigi though, goddamn I hate how they handled that character with this balance patch. They nerf the one move of his I found interesting (the frame data to his fireball), but buff his kill power, his kill confirms, his edge guarding, and combo potential out of grabs with the reduced knockback to his forward air. The fact Luigi can now 0 to 101% Captain Falcon is the most disgusting true combo I've seen in the game, which says a lot considering how I main Diddy Kong and Meta Knight.

 

[Joaco]

When will you lot finally receive the nerfs you deserve??

Us honorable Dedede mains suffer so much at your hands.
Your stupid fAir chop hands.

When people like you stop complaining. First the hoohah, then our fairs, if Sheik gets nerfed then you will complain about Luma. Stop complaining, if you dislike top tiers then train to beat them, you achieve nothing complaining.

 

[J0A0B]

When people like you stop complaining. First the hoohah, then our fairs, if Sheik gets nerfed then you will complain about Luma. Stop complaining, if you dislike top tiers then train to beat them, you achieve nothing complaining.

Aw let the guy complain. A jerkish rant to pull, but I feel kind of sorry for him. It's not like these nerfs are crippling top tiers like Diddy, who is still good. He's probably disappointed the one character who got players placed in first and second at EVO didn't get the same big treatment the monkey got after APEX. Also his character not getting any noticeable buffs despite his low ranks according to the community. I can't help but think complaining played some part in buffs for characters like Greninja.

No disrespect to your post though, man. He SHOULD train to beat top tiers before making pointless rants.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Honestly I don't know how people who were disappointed expected Sheik to turn out to be. If they worsen the frame data on Sheik she'll get the Greninja treatment pretty hard. Straight to mid tier. I'm pretty sure that's not what everyone wants.

I'm happy they've gone around without majorly touching the top tiers, but Fox getting ruined is really sad and the Falcon nerf is unnecessary.

 

[W.A.C.]

Honestly I don't know how people who were disappointed expected Sheik to turn out to be. If they worsen the frame data on Sheik she'll get the Greninja treatment pretty hard. Straight to mid tier. I'm pretty sure that's not what everyone wants.

That's why there's very little I wanted to see get changed about her because what happened to Greninja and Diddy Kong was ridiculous. In 1.0.8, she pretty much had a positive matchup against the entire roster and a huge part of what was because of her frame data, needles, and amazing recovery, so I figured a nerf to her needles would be the best approach if one of those three things were nerfed.

I'm happy they've gone around without majorly touching the top tiers, but Fox getting ruined is really sad and the Falcon nerf is unnecessary.

I wouldn't say Fox is ruined, but he's definitely not a top ten character anymore. They really should give him (and Falco) the ability to auto-cancel his lasers to make up for that nerf. Falcon's nerfs in 1.0.8 and 1.10 were also stupid, though his jab's final hit previously had super deceptive range. Haven't tested out what was changed about it yet though. A lot of people get so bitter over certain matchups that many people just want to see characters they hate fighting or seeing get nerfed to the ground without any sympathy. It's so goddamn dumb. I especially notice this from King Dedede mains, many of whom seem to hate all the top tiers and are probably still bitter from 1.0.4 which nerfed Dedede hard for absolutely no reason.

 

[jam1garner]

Fix sheiks needles and she'll have good balance. It seems minor but it isn't.

 

[_Tree]

So people just came here to complain? Don't blame us. We're here to document. Go complain to Sakurai.

Get good or pick a better character. You signed up for this the moment you started playing this game competitively.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

In Putuk's defense, he didn't really seem hostile with his comment. I don't think he would have added the little gif of a dizzy DeDeDe otherwise, lol.. As for the rest, Iunno. People are going to complain about Sheik, it happens. Our needles are a very efficient and annoying tool and nobody likes being carried offstage by Fair strings, so I can understand where they're coming from. I'm willing to bet that all of us here have complained about characters such as Luigi at one point or another, so we don't really have much room to talk. That being said, let's try to keep it civil, folks. These threads are meant to help others and to add insight about the character that we use, so if you want to be goofy I suggest going to the general discussion page instead.

 

[_Tree]

That being said, let's try to keep it civil, folks. These threads are meant to help others and to add insight about the character that we use, so if you want to be goofy I suggest going to the general discussion page instead.

This is why I don't want people coming here to vent. We hear more than enough complaints about Sheik. We don't need them where they're not needed.

But yea, back to discussing the patch...

 

[Zankoku]

Does anyone know the practical effects of switching around the strong and weak hitboxes of Sheik's fair? I just ran a tournament last night and overall it appeared functionally identical in all the relevant situations.

 

[verbatim]

When people like you stop complaining. First the hoohah, then our fairs, if Sheik gets nerfed then you will complain about Luma. Stop complaining, if you dislike top tiers then train to beat them, you achieve nothing complaining.

Idk, complaining's worked out pretty well for us so far.

Kidding aside, Sheik knocks a LOT of characters down into the unusable tier by virtue of being Sheik. I'm glad none of the nerf's change the way she plays, but I'd still call her the best.

 

[SR-71]

Aw let the guy complain. A jerkish rant to pull, but I feel kind of sorry for him. It's not like these nerfs are crippling top tiers like Diddy, who is still good. He's probably disappointed the one character who got players placed in first and second at EVO didn't get the same big treatment the monkey got after APEX. Also his character not getting any noticeable buffs despite his low ranks according to the community. I can't help but think complaining played some part in buffs for characters like Greninja.

No disrespect to your post though, man. He SHOULD train to beat top tiers before making pointless rants.

Sheik didn't get 1st and 2nd at EVO. ZeRo and Mr R did. Zero didnt even have to use Sheik in GFs. He would be there even without Sheik, I bet, because he is a great player. No one wants to admit this. Plenty of bad players used Sheik and didn't get out of pools. Zero can't even do some of the advanced tech skills with Sheik. The character matters little if the player knows the game and has talent.

 

[Deleted member]

Idk, complaining's worked out pretty well for us so far.

Kidding aside, Sheik knocks a LOT of characters down into the unusable tier by virtue of being Sheik. I'm glad none of the nerf's change the way she plays, but I'd still call her the best.

^ Pretty much this. Pika main, came to see what people were saying about how Sheik was changed. Looks like she's still the top character, indisputably. I have tools to help against her, but some characters don't have much of a chance against a Sheik who knows what they're doing. She could use a needle nerf. I understand there has to be a best character, but her needles are kinda dumb. But this is probably more for general discussion.

Anyways, all I want to know is, will Cacogen still be able to Fair me across the stage? I don't wanna end up as his next gifycat.

I'm asking this because I'm seeing a lot of dispute on this thread as to whether her Fair's damage just got nerfed, or whether she has more landing lag... I don't know much about Sheik's "autocancelling", I just know she never stops Fairing, so I guess what I'm trying to say is, help this Simpleton understand what changed.

 

[rm88]

What's pretty unfair is that she seems to be the only top character that hasn't been nerfed considerably. I do think she shouldn't be better than the following "group" of top characters.

 

[ArikadoSD]

The top 5 remains unchanged. Sheik, Rosalina, Pikachu, ZSS, Sonic. Luigi is 6th or interchangeable with 3rd, 4th, or 5th.

What's pretty unfair is that she seems to be the only top character that hasn't been nerfed considerably. I do think she shouldn't be better than the following "group" of top characters.

Sheik is the most nerfed character so far, it's just that the nerfs didn't affect her as much as say, diddy's nerfs affected him.

Stop being selfish with nerfs. Please. They've never done us any good so far and Nintendo showed with each patch that they're incompetent when it comes to balancing the game.

^ Pretty much this. Pika main, came to see what people were saying about how Sheik was changed. Looks like she's still the top character, indisputably. I have tools to help against her, but some characters don't have much of a chance against a Sheik who knows what they're doing. She could use a needle nerf. I understand there has to be a best character, but her needles are kinda dumb. But this is probably more for general discussion.

Anyways, all I want to know is, will Cacogen still be able to Fair me across the stage? I don't wanna end up as his next gifycat.

I'm asking this because I'm seeing a lot of dispute on this thread as to whether her Fair's damage just got nerfed, or whether she has more landing lag... I don't know much about Sheik's "autocancelling", I just know she never stops Fairing, so I guess what I'm trying to say is, help this Simpleton understand what changed.

Yes, Cacogen will still fair you across the stage as far as I'm aware. I haven't tested this on actual human players yet though.

 

[J0A0B]

Sheik didn't get 1st and 2nd at EVO. ZeRo and Mr R did. Zero didnt even have to use Sheik in GFs. He would be there even without Sheik, I bet, because he is a great player. No one wants to admit this. Plenty of bad players used Sheik and didn't get out of pools. Zero can't even do some of the advanced tech skills with Sheik. The character matters little if the player knows the game and has talent.

Um, dude. When did I say Sheik got first place? I said she got PLAYERS moved to first and second. In fact, to be more accurate, she got them both to Grand Finals. Not sure where the whole ZeRo excuse comes in play, but Diddy got nerfed hard after he moved people to top places at APEX regardless of who used him. So it surprises me and others that Sheik didn't get much of the same treatment after doing pretty much the same thing.

 

[Project Crysis]

Idk how I feel about at 5 anymore, but with the change in kbg on fair when does fair into bouncing fish start working?

 

[Snackss]

Pretty sure Greninja was the most nerfed character, but because they finally buffed his shuriken I suppose I have to start forgiving them. A little bit. The Rosalina buffs just took her from "basically broken" (you couldn't even grab her without getting punished) to "still top tier" and took Diddy from "brainlessly winning 80% of tournaments" to frankly, a more interesting character. I definitely wouldn't say nerfs haven't done us any good. The problem is that they keep nerfing Sheik in ways that don't remotely address how strong she is. If they had nerfed needles and Vanish from the start, we wouldn't be in the situation where an overnerf will send Sheik straight to mid-tier. Now we have a Sheik who has a bit of trouble KO'ing but still completely and utterly dominates the neutral.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Um, dude. When did I say Sheik got first place? I said she got PLAYERS moved to first and second. In fact, to be more accurate, she got them both to Grand Finals. Not sure where the whole ZeRo excuse comes in play, but Diddy got nerfed hard after he moved people to top places at APEX regardless of who used him. So it surprises me and others that Sheik didn't get much of the same treatment after doing pretty much the same thing.

If you really wanna analyze it and go deeper, then it would be obvious Diddy would win most of the matchups that Zero fought. In top 32, I remember him fighting against john numbers, nairo, and ally (probably forgetting 1 or 2 more), and his Diddy can easily beat all of them, especially because Diddy has an advantageous MU vs. ZSS and if Nairo went Pit or Dark Pit Zero would probably still win cuz he's the better player.

Mr. R has mained Sheik day 1.

Idk how I feel about at 5 anymore, but with the change in kbg on fair when does fair into bouncing fish start working?

Should still work like normal.

 

[W.A.C.]

Sheik is the most nerfed character so far, it's just that the nerfs didn't affect her as much as say, diddy's nerfs affected him.

Diddy received 1 nerf in 1.0.4, 8 nerfs in 1.0.6, and 9 nerfs in 1.0.8., making for a total of 18 nerfs in the entire lifespan on this game. Shiek received 8 nerfs in 1.0.4, 2 nerfs in 1.0.6, and 2 nerfs in 1.10, making for a total of 12 nerfs. The worst frame data nerf to any of her aerials was her forward air, which only received about one or two extra frames of lag where as Diddy's up air gained a whopping 12 additional frames of end lag. I'm not a fan of how balance patches have been handled for this game and ideally, I would've much rather have seen the goal to just bring everyone up to 1.0.4 Diddy and Shiek's level. But there is no way Shiek was the most over nerfed character in the game, especially when Rosalina received 16 nerfs in the first balance patch and Greninja received at least a dozen nerfs in 1.0.4.

Stop being selfish with nerfs. Please. They've never done us any good so far and Nintendo showed with each patch that they're incompetent when it comes to balancing the game.

I completely agree that Nintendo has proven to be really incompetent with the balance patches. However, at this point, Shiek pretty much has a positive matchup against the entire roster. Unless Nintendo completely changes their approach to balance patches (which they won't), I don't know how else that issue can be resolved without at least some kind of major nerf. That's why I suggested the idea of them reverting her needles back to her Brawl needles because of how her current needles are a nightmare for at least half the roster. It certainly would hurt Shiek, but at least that would only affect a single move as opposed to any of her neutrals or recovery options.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Speaking of needles, let's try to get back on topic and discuss the actual changes.

The data dump didn't include projectiles or stuff like Luma, so we actually don't know if needles have been tampered with, but I don't think anyone really noticed much of a difference. If there is, then it's really minimal (like Luigi's 3 added frames of lag on fireballs which does nada). Pretty sure all of her other specials are also untouched, but i can't know for certain.

 

[verbatim]

Did anyone check if they changed the Vanish/Bucket interaction?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Did anyone check if they changed the Vanish/Bucket interaction?

I believe G&W mains checked this and it seems untouched.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Diddy received 1 nerf in 1.0.4, 8 nerfs in 1.0.6, and 9 nerfs in 1.0.8., making for a total of 18 nerfs in the entire lifespan on this game. Shiek received 8 nerfs in 1.0.4, 2 nerfs in 1.0.6, and 2 nerfs in 1.10, making for a total of 12 nerfs. The worst frame data nerf to any of her aerials was her forward air, which only received about one or two extra frames of lag where as Diddy's up air gained a whopping 12 additional frames of end lag. I'm not a fan of how balance patches have been handled for this game and ideally, I would've much rather have seen the goal to just bring everyone up to 1.0.4 Diddy and Shiek's level. But there is no way Shiek was the most over nerfed character in the game, especially when Rosalina received 16 nerfs in the first balance patch and Greninja received at least a dozen nerfs in 1.0.4.


I completely agree that Nintendo has proven to be really incompetent with the balance patches. However, at this point, Shiek pretty much has a positive matchup against the entire roster. Unless Nintendo completely changes their approach to balance patches (which they won't), I don't know how else that issue can be resolved without at least some kind of major nerf. That's why I suggested the idea of them reverting her needles back to her Brawl needles because of how her current needles are a nightmare for at least half the roster. It certainly would hurt Shiek, but at least that would only affect a single move as opposed to any of her neutrals or recovery options.

"Most nerfed" isn't merely a count of the number of nerfs. Diddy's biggest nerf came to Hoo Ha, which was a stupid-easy kill setup at stupid-low percents. Sheik has never had such a kill setup, though her original Bouncing Fish was pretty crazy and was (in my opinion) rightfully nerfed hard early on, along with a couple other attacks.
I believe that Arikado's meaning is that 1.0.0 Sheik would be running circles around the whole cast had she not fallen. Basically, rather than simply counting the nerfs, look at the contents. Some mean far more than others.

 

[rm88]

Stop being selfish with nerfs. Please. They've never done us any good so far and Nintendo showed with each patch that they're incompetent when it comes to balancing the game.

I actually agree with most/all the nerfs done so far (to the top characters at least), really. Anything that removes dominance from one character or a small group of characters is absolutely always a good thing, IMO. Some nerfs are indeed pretty dumb, like Wii Fit Trainer's initial nerf, but I don't think they have been terrible at targetting the more dominant characters. And the truth is, it will always be more realistic to re-balance a handful of characters (nerfs) than re-balancing the entire game (buffs).

Either way, I just think Sheik needs a slight toning down so she's not clearly the best character in the game - I don't want her to cease being a top character or whatever. Again, all in my opinion!

 

[W.A.C.]

"Most nerfed" isn't merely a count of the number of nerfs. Diddy's biggest nerf came to Hoo Ha, which was a stupid-easy kill setup at stupid-low percents. Sheik has never had such a kill setup, though her original Bouncing Fish was pretty crazy and was (in my opinion) rightfully nerfed hard early on, along with a couple other attacks.
I believe that Arikado's meaning is that 1.0.0 Sheik would be running circles around the whole cast had she not fallen. Basically, rather than simply counting the nerfs, look at the contents. Some mean far more than others.

-Diddy's down throw is now a bad throw.
-His up throw to up air combo no longer kills unless he's on an platform or on a stage with a tiny blastzone.
-Diddy's up air now has poor knockback, it's considerably laggier, and has worse range.
-His forward air's kill power is super minimal unless he goes super deep off stage with his opponent at like 130% or more. Above stage, good luck ever killing under 180% with it unless you're playing on Halberd or a walk off.
-His side special received a ton of damage and knockback nerfs.
-Down tilt has noticiably less hit stun now, where hurt a lot of his setups and previous true combos.
-His forward smash has increased end lag, making it a far more punishable kill move.

I'd say nerfs affected Diddy harder than Shiek. Shiek has always been better than Diddy though.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I actually agree with most/all the nerfs done so far (to the top characters at least), really. Anything that removes dominance from one character or a small group of characters is absolutely always a good thing, IMO. Some nerfs are indeed pretty dumb, like Wii Fit Trainer's initial nerf, but I don't think they have been terrible at targetting the more dominant characters. And the truth is, it will always be more realistic to re-balance a handful of characters (nerfs) than re-balancing the entire game (buffs).

Either way, I just think Sheik needs a slight toning down so she's not clearly the best character in the game - I don't want her to cease being a top character or whatever. Again, all in my opinion!

Seeing as you're a mega man main and I'm a sheik main, both our opinions are very biased, but I'm trying to stay as objective as I can when I say I really disagree. A lot of the nerfs are over-done. Diddy didn't need a nerf on his entire kit, all they had to do was slightly weaken uair (not as much as they did in the mm2 patch...) and give dthrow more knockback so that it doesn't combo so easily. Tweak Luma a bit, Sheik's nerfs were fine (maybe a bit more lag on needles), tweak Luigi's damage output/put lag on fireball, remove Sonic from the game... and that's it, that's all the balancing they had to do in terms of nerfing top characters.

But nope. Luigi/Rosa are untouched, Diddy and Fox got **** on, and Sheik was barely touched but still pretty touched.

And Sonic remains in the game.

 

[rm88]

Seeing as you're a mega man main and I'm a sheik main, both our opinions are very biased, but I'm trying to stay as objective as I can when I say I really disagree. A lot of the nerfs are over-done. Diddy didn't need a nerf on his entire kit, all they had to do was slightly weaken uair (not as much as they did in the mm2 patch...) and give dthrow more knockback so that it doesn't combo so easily. Tweak Luma a bit, Sheik's nerfs were fine (maybe a bit more lag on needles), tweak Luigi's damage output/put lag on fireball, remove Sonic from the game... and that's it, that's all the balancing they had to do in terms of nerfing top characters.

But nope. Luigi/Rosa are untouched, Diddy and Fox got **** on, and Sheik was barely touched but still pretty touched.

And Sonic remains in the game.

Diddy is not the dominant force he was before, but isn't he still a great character? If anything that shows the nerfs were adequate IMO. I don't think Diddy or Fox have been Greninja'd, and I wouldn't wish that on any top character, I guess. It'd just better if it wasn't so easy to decide who's the best character in the game, it'd be cool if Sheik / Fox / Rosalina / Luigi / Diddy / Falcon / Pikachu / etc. were all reasonable candidates. Not the entire cast, obviously, but at least the top characters.

We agree that Sonic is beyond annoying, though

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Honestly, the only other nerf that I could think of that would be viable on Sheik was one that I discussed in a thread prior to this one, and that would be to nerf the range of her needles. One of the biggest complaints that I constantly hear from people is how OP needles are, which, again, they're really fast, transcendent, and overall redic. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf on the range or even a little bit more ending lag added to them. Other than that, I can't really name anything off the top of my head that wouldn't utterly destroy her. Well, except for a pointless nerf to 'nades.

 

[rm88]

Sheik is terrifying as a Kirby main, but the needles are actually pretty painless for us, since we can just crouch below them. Or steal them and out-needle you with our cool multiple jumps

 

[Thor]

Honestly, the only other nerf that I could think of that would be viable on Sheik was one that I discussed in a thread prior to this one, and that would be to nerf the range of her needles. One of the biggest complaints that I constantly hear from people is how OP needles are, which, again, they're really fast, transcendent, and overall redic. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf on the range or even a little bit more ending lag added to them. Other than that, I can't really name anything off the top of my head that wouldn't utterly destroy her. Well, except for a pointless nerf to 'nades.

Question for you [or anyone else]... would changing the FAF on ftilt from 25 -> 28 [i.e. adding 3 frames of endlag] be a substantial nerf/destroy her? Ftilt seems to be an issue for a lot of characters due to its anti-air applications, extremely low endlag, and great chainability, and as a former Sheik main [now a backup], I always figured if they should nerf two things it's ftilt and fair (although after reading things here I'll add needles to that list). Would a slight endlag increase on Sheik's ftilt be more damaging than I credit?

As far as patch changes go, I already enjoy playing the Pikachu vs Sheik MU from both sides, so it doesn't terribly affect me, but I'm glad for the sake of the rest of the cast that fair was nerfed slightly. I think bigger steps should be taken at some point [either more Sheik nerfs or more relevant rest-of-cast buffs], but making small steps in the right direction is better than nothing.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Question for you [or anyone else]... would changing the FAF on ftilt from 25 -> 28 [i.e. adding 3 frames of endlag] be a substantial nerf/destroy her? Ftilt seems to be an issue for a lot of characters due to its anti-air applications, extremely low endlag, and great chainability, and as a former Sheik main [now a backup], I always figured if they should nerf two things it's ftilt and fair (although after reading things here I'll add needles to that list). Would a slight endlag increase on Sheik's ftilt be more damaging than I credit?

As far as patch changes go, I already enjoy playing the Pikachu vs Sheik MU from both sides, so it doesn't terribly affect me, but I'm glad for the sake of the rest of the cast that fair was nerfed slightly. I think bigger steps should be taken at some point [either more Sheik nerfs or more relevant rest-of-cast buffs], but making small steps in the right direction is better than nothing.

Yes, I'd say an ftilt nerf would be terrible. Right now Ftilt acts as a combo starter and a quick move that's hard to punish. The combos it starts rack up damage and ftilt > uair is one of Sheik's best kill set ups.

Nerfing Sheik isn't easy, she's very sensitive in that regard. I've always said that removing windbox and 2nd hitbox of Vanish and a slight addition of lag to needles would be the only nerf she'd need. Anymore and she's gonna get greninja'd.

 

[Project Crysis]

I agree she seems quite frail when it comes to getting nerfed, because you can't just nerf what every you want she like still can't kill but mess with her aerials a bit too much and she will just get worse you have to really pick and choose what to nerf without making the character awful #SheikahWarriors

 

[W.A.C.]

>Nerfing Shiek's Forward Tilt

101 on how to ruin a character. Sakurai nerfed all of Diddy's best moves hard except his bananas and it threw him into high tier status. Nerfing the hell out of every amazing move a character has can hurt them horribly, especially when you have a character as fragile as Shiek. Rosalina was able to take additional nerfs yet still fare strong at the #2 or 3 spot because she's designed to be such a strong character. A character like her could have her up air moderately nerfed in knockback and it won't trash her. You have a character like Shiek with a lot of super quick moves with weak knockback and you have quite a challenge on how to nerf a character like that without breaking what makes her such a fundamentally solid character. You can't really nerf her kill power much further without making her a character that frequently has to rely on timing out opponents to win and touching the frame data on anyone can make a character drop a tier. The fact balance patches nerfing kill power have made it common for Shiek and Sonic players to time out other players when that almost never happened in 1.0.4 is a sign Sakurai already went too far. 1.0.8 was also the first time I started seeing Diddy Kong players (including myself) do that as well. These patches have really messed with the flow and pace of the game. It's unfortunate. I would love to see this game going back to the pacing it had with the original 3DS version where 3 stocks is something TO's could actually tolerate.

 

[SR-71]

Um, dude. When did I say Sheik got first place? I said she got PLAYERS moved to first and second. In fact, to be more accurate, she got them both to Grand Finals. Not sure where the whole ZeRo excuse comes in play, but Diddy got nerfed hard after he moved people to top places at APEX regardless of who used him. So it surprises me and others that Sheik didn't get much of the same treatment after doing pretty much the same thing.

Sheik didn't get any players to GFs. The players got themselves there. You evidently forgot to read my post. You are sating that when a character gets to GFs, Sakurai should auto nerf them? I hope you're joking. Good players will always find a way, poor players say the game is unfair.

 

[Snackss]

The state of the game at launch really isn't relevant. People thought Greninja was top tier, Diddy was mid tier, and Luigi was bottom tier. The neutral game was running back and forth spamming short hop neutral air. Nobody knew what they were doing, really.

Sheik didn't get any players to GFs. The players got themselves there. You evidently forgot to read my post. You are sating that when a character gets to GFs, Sakurai should auto nerf them? I hope you're joking. Good players will always find a way, poor players say the game is unfair.

I don't doubt that Mr. R and obviously ZeRo still would have made top 8 even with a nerfed Sheik, but we can't kid ourselves and say the game isn't unfair because of her. Sheik just screws over too many characters.

 

[Euklyd]

Doesnt the 11 in the data dump signify the landing frames? So it went up by one frame correct?

I doubt it.
Assuming you're talking about the:
@@ -1,11 +1,11 @@
Looking at past patch data, in 1.0.4 that line read:
@@ -5,8 +5,8 @@
so I really doubt that it signifies landing frames.

I think the only frame counting is done by the various timers; if I had to guess (and this matches up with the frame data we have):

AsynchronousTimer(4.0f)   // I think this is the autocancel window, since it matches up with what we know
AsynchronousTimer(5.0f)   // hitboxes appear on frame 5
SynchronousTimer(3.0f)    // 3 frames AFTER the previous timer, hitboxes disappear
SynchronousTimer(3.0f)    // animation ends 3 frames after hitboxes disappear

Someone who's more knowledgeable should correct me if I'm wrong, of course. Who do we know that actually knows this stuff?


Would still like confirmation as to whether fair actually hits further, or if the calcs I ran that show the effective knockback is nearly unchanged are correct.

 

[J0A0B]

Sheik didn't get any players to GFs. The players got themselves there. You evidently forgot to read my post. You are sating that when a character gets to GFs, Sakurai should auto nerf them? I hope you're joking. Good players will always find a way, poor players say the game is unfair.

Look, I get it. They're very very good players. And Sheik wins because experts know how to play. But so are all the other players that use different characters, and they try hard to figure out how to beat the match up. Seeing two Sheik players reach the top may be a coincidence, but a questionable coincidence that can't just be answered with something like, "they weren't good enough". It's not just about who wins the tournaments though. It's also how often they win or the way they control the stage or even how they lose. From what I've researched, Sheik was still the most seen throughout the tournament, and I can't help but remember how many times I've seen "The winner is...Sheik" along with Diddy back at APEX streams. And it still seems obvious that Sheik controls a lot on the field due to having a higher advantage than most others in neutral.

So I am gonna say you're right that they shouldn't be auto-nerfed just because they win of get to GF. But honestly, Nintendo needs to do a better job at researching these fights if they're gonna balance this game to even out the matchups. They should at least take the community's advice and put some effort to actual changes like making needles less annoying or reducing the range of F-air a bit (I've seen plenty mention this earlier and that would probably help give others more advantage without crippling Sheik's combo potential).

Man, I don't know why I put so much into these posts sometimes. Maybe I'm just tired of hearing "ZeRo is very good" when I already know that's true, or I feel people are twisting my words to make it seem I'm being sore about the situation. For instance, I said it surprises me about the minimal nerfs, but I didn't say it like she deserved more nerfs.

Going back to the topic though, has anyone checked if Sheik's custom moves have changed in any way? Like the custom needles or custom grenade?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Smash as a series has always been like this. There is always that one or two polarizing characters that shape the metagame around them. 64 had Pikachu and Kirby, Melee had Fox, Brawl had MK and Snake, now Sm4sh had Diddy previously and Sheik now. Smash was always unbalanced. The only thing that changed now is that Nintendo can patch the game.

But Nintendo doesn't listen to feedback. Nintendo is incompetent at balancing the game. Sakurai cares not for the competitive scene but for the party aspect of the game, and he's told competitive players to literally **** off and play other 2D fighter games that would suit them better.

Bottom line is, complaining about the top tier does nothing. Another character will come and polarize the meta around them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Claims Sakurai hates competitive gaming after he puts in the poster boy for competitive fighters in smash

Something doesnt add up.