Sheik patch 1.1.0 changes - CONFIRMED

[ArikadoSD]

*Claims Sakurai hates competitive gaming after he puts in the poster boy for competitive fighters in smash

Something doesnt add up.

"Mmm. Personally, I feel that if you want to play a fighting game seriously, there are other competitive fighting games that are more suited to that, and people like that could have fun playing those. If you play Smash Brothers seriously as a competitive game, the game itself has no future" - See more at: http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakura...to-be-a-competitive-game#sthash.tiWDle18.dpuf

 

[exnecross]

I'm getting mixed information here:

Did the frame data change on fair at all? Does it actually have X more landing lag?

Also, does she get to combo earlier now? I guess I should test this one out myself.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I'm getting mixed information here:

Did the frame data change on fair at all? Does it actually have X more landing lag?

Also, does she get to combo earlier now? I guess I should test this one out myself.

I don't believe the frame data was changed, but I'm not certain. It certainly didn't change enough to the point where you'd notice it.

Fair is pretty much the same outside of a 0.5% damage nerf and the sourspot is now more common than the sweetspot, meaning you're more likely to get 4.3% instead of 5% out of a fair.

You can probably pin down where the sour/sweetspot are too

 

[exnecross]

I don't believe the frame data was changed, but I'm not certain. It certainly didn't change enough to the point where you'd notice it.

Fair is pretty much the same outside of a 0.5% damage nerf and the sourspot is now more common than the sweetspot, meaning you're more likely to get 4.3% instead of 5% out of a fair.

You can probably pin down where the sour/sweetspot are too

I meant more along the lines of how the changes in KB effects her combo game. She should be able to do things like fair > BF at higher percents now, right? Since damage is directly related to KB.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I meant more along the lines of how the changes in KB effects her combo game. She should be able to do things like fair > BF at higher percents now, right? Since damage is directly related to KB.

They adjusted KBG to compensate for the reduced damage.

 

[exnecross]

They adjusted KBG to compensate for the reduced damage.

I saw that mentioned, just didn't know if the numbers ended up being the same as before or slightly different. I'll take your word for it.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I saw that mentioned, just didn't know if the numbers ended up being the same as before or slightly different. I'll take your word for it.

Well I mean it should be roughly the same. I have the percents on when the combo starts working and when it stops for mario so I could test it.

edit: yeah, around the same. Starts around ~25% and ends around 108-115%

 

[MOI-ARI]

Man... So this is our nerf huh.

I don't think its safe for me to still play this character yet...People still are complaining when I pull her out and win ,then **** on me super hard if i lose. Honestly i just wanna play as my modest Brawl main and have fun with playing spry ninja characters xD

I surely doubt this is the end of Sheik's nerfs. I was hoping this patch would set (the barely misaligned) Record straight. But apparently not. Even as a Sheik user i have no idea what is to become of this character. It's either she is barely 'chipped' like she is now, or like some of you mentioned, will end up 'Greninja'd' for a pretty dumb reason.

I just don't know what to do xD i guess i'll just enjoy her style as of now til' next patch. What a pointless rant of mine.

 

[ShinRamen]

This nerf hurts in quite a few ways;
-Fair to grab will not be guaranteed in as many situations as before
-Sweetspot fair to bouncing fish (or any follow up) will not be guaranteed at as many %s as before
-Killing with fair will be tougher as it is a lot harder to hit with the sweetspot
-Lower overall %s output due to both the 0.5% reduction on both hitboxes, and the fact that you'll be hitting with the hitbox that deals greater damage much less.

One way in which it does help is that killing luma takes a tad less, but again only if you're accurate enough to consistently hit with the sweetspot.

It seems that settling for f throw bouncing fish will be optimal in many more situations.

On the other hand, those who have gotten creative with nair/bair and are less reliant on fair will be able to set them selves apart a little further.

 

[exnecross]

This nerf hurts in quite a few ways;
-Fair to grab will not be guaranteed in as many situations as before
-Sweetspot fair to bouncing fish (or any follow up) will not be guaranteed at as many %s as before
-Killing with fair will be tougher as it is a lot harder to hit with the sweetspot
-Lower overall %s output due to both the 0.5% reduction on both hitboxes, and the fact that you'll be hitting with the hitbox that deals greater damage much less.

One way in which it does help is that killing luma takes a tad less, but again only if you're accurate enough to consistently hit with the sweetspot.

It seems that settling for f throw bouncing fish will be optimal in many more situations.

On the other hand, those who have gotten creative with nair/bair and are less reliant on fair will be able to set them selves apart a little further.

Why is fair to grab not as guaranteed? There shouldn't be any difference.
Why wouldn't SS fair to BF be as guaranteed at as many %s as before? Provided you hit the SS, there should be no difference.

The SS change is just going to take some getting used to. And as for the lower damage.. this doesn't really hurt Sheik that much. If anything, it will keep her opponent in the desirable kill % for a little longer, it will just take a tad bit more effort to get them there.

If there is more landing lag on fair, then that definitely sucks. Hoping http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4)/1.1.0_changelog#Sheik is wrong.

 

[ShinRamen]

SS fair to BF is less guaranteed because to hit with the sweetspot, you have to be at a further distance from your opponent. Fair to grab I need to think about again, there was definitely some logic to it but I've forgotten it, dammit lol
The wiki is wrong about the sweet/sour spots being swapped; I think what happens is that if you hit with both, the sour spots now takes priority whereas it was the sweetspot before. It could be something slightly different but it's definitely not as the wiki says, so wouldn't be surprised if they were wrong about endlag too. I myself have noticed no difference in that regard fwiw.

 

[Jaxas]

SS fair to BF is less guaranteed because to hit with the sweetspot, you have to be at a further distance from your opponent. Fair to grab I need to think about again, there was definitely some logic to it but I've forgotten it, dammit lol
The wiki is wrong about the sweet/sour spots being swapped; I think what happens is that if you hit with both, the sour spots now takes priority whereas it was the sweetspot before. It could be something slightly different but it's definitely not as the wiki says, so wouldn't be surprised if they were wrong about endlag too. I myself have noticed no difference in that regard fwiw.

Yeah, according to Dantarion's data dump the only changes appear to be which one takes priority and the damage; no hitbox size/placement changes

 

[Deleted member 189823]

When people like you stop complaining. First the hoohah, then our fairs, if Sheik gets nerfed then you will complain about Luma. Stop complaining, if you dislike top tiers then train to beat them, you achieve nothing complaining.

Le gano con Ganondorf [?

 

[Absol]

Sheiks KBG on her fair has increased by 7, making it a clean kill move now if tippered. Sakurai wants us to space, then we shall space.

Prepatch fthrow->fair (old sweetspot) kills pikachu at 130-40% with 100% rage

this patch fthrow->fair (tipper sweespot) kills pikachu at 100% with 100% rage

once again sheik got a buff under the table. This does not affect our combo game too much since we will be using the sourspot when stringing which does less knockback. Sadly...there are old strings that I will miss with those 2 frames of landing.

Start killing with tipper fairs now my loves. We ninja marth now.

 

[exnecross]

Sadly...there are old strings that I will miss with those 2 frames of landing.

Which strings are those? I tried out fair strings in training mode today and I've noticed no difference, still able to carry them the full length of FD at the same % as before.

Also I'm still not sure there has been increased landing lag, can you post a reliable source? Maybe I missed it.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

The way I see it, people are always going to complain about characters one way or another, no matter what the skill level OR the character. But this is, by far, the most balanced game out of the four in the Smash series (I'm excluding PM specifically because it is constantly modded by a fan community and actually very well balanced for what it is.) Infinites no longer exist, remember when those were a thing? Or how about shine in Melee? We have a lot less to complain about now than we did back then, and there's potential for more balancing out. But again, people will never truly be satisfied with what they have.

 

[[Deuce]]

The big problem people are having is that they keep framing these buffs and nerfs in the context of EVO, APEX etc when Sakurai and Co are NOT simply balancing for 1v1, they're balancing for the entirety of gameplay, including 1v1, 4 player, ffa, etc.

Do you guys think shiek would easily get the most points in a 5 minute 4 man free-for-all? Nope I'm gonna wager one of the heavies who lands a meaty a$$ hit while two others are grabbing each other is gonna score a lot.

 

[exnecross]

The big problem people are having is that they keep framing these buffs and nerfs in the context of EVO, APEX etc when Sakurai and Co are NOT simply balancing for 1v1, they're balancing for the entirety of gameplay, including 1v1, 4 player, ffa, etc.

Do you guys think shiek would easily get the most points in a 5 minute 4 man free-for-all? Nope I'm gonna wager one of the heavies who lands a meaty a$$ hit while two others are grabbing each other is gonna score a lot.

I'm not so sure about this. They seem to be pretty consistently nerfing the characters that excel in 1v1 tournaments but aren't the best in FFA, while consistently buffing characters that should do very well in FFA but aren't so great 1v1. I'm sure they keep FFA, For Fun etc in mind while making balance changes, but the balance changes have, thus far, been very much related to the characters' viability in the 1v1 scene.

I would argue that, based on the changes up to this point, competitive 1v1 is absolutely the main focus of balance changes.

 

[Illuminose]

Has anyone done needles side-by-side? Start-up + end lag.

 

[leesinger]

So all in all sheik was buffed huh? Glad Sakurai has his ear close to what the competitive community thinks on balance....

But seriously all she needs changed is her F-air to no longer be disjointed and give needles a non-scaling knockback.

Lets see what sheik has shall we?

-Best recovery in the game
-Best neutral game (via least laggy moves)
-Best Roll in the game
-Great combo game
-50/50 kill setups off of a grab
-Unpredictable movement
-The most tech options of any charachter in the game

But lets keep buffing her amirite?

Edit: I guess I'm an idiot for expecting anyone to agree with me in this subforum. But I don't think the nerfs I mentioned would even really be a detriment to her and if they were I wouldn't mind if they supplemented them with giving her moves a bit more kill power. But right now she's just too safe and the myth that she struggles to get a kill is just that, a myth.

 

[smashPony]

So all in all sheik was buffed huh? Glad Sakurai has his ear close to what the competitive community thinks on balance....

But seriously all she needs changed is her F-air to no longer be disjointed and give needles a non-scaling knockback.

Lets see what sheik has shall we?

-Best recovery in the game
-Best neutral game (via least laggy moves)
-Best Roll in the game
-Great combo game
-50/50 kill setups off of a grab
-Unpredictable movement
-The most tech options of any charachter in the game

But lets keep buffing her amirite?

Edit: I guess I'm an idiot for expecting anyone to agree with me in this subforum. But I don't think the nerfs I mentioned would even really be a detriment to her and if they were I wouldn't mind if they supplemented them with giving her moves a bit more kill power. But right now she's just too safe and the myth that she struggles to get a kill is just that, a myth.

uhh.. there were no buffs.

 

[leesinger]

uhh.. there were no buffs.

Her F-air kills around 30% give or take 5% ealier than pre-patch when hit with the sweetspot. How is that not a buff? Her gameplay remains unchanged as does her combo game. Once people get used to the new hitboxes, it will be a buff, sure right now people are getting used to it, but overally the changes made her better not worse.

 

[tronfox64]

@ leesinger She accumulates less damage overall per each string involving Fair. Sour spot now also takes priority too if any of the hitbox overlaps, meaning only a perfect tipper will kill 5-10% earlier than previously (not 30). Anything less than perfect kills later. However, keep in mind that killing slightly earlier with a tipper fair still won't make up for everything else, tipper Fair included, killing later due to the opponent being lower at %s. Sheik involves lots of Fairs, and often ends up with the opponent at around 140%+ to KO. if 10+ of you hits on that stock were Fair, as is very common, then you start to lose out on kill opportunity.

Essentially, a Sweetspot Fair can still kill roughly around the same %s, maybe ever so marginally better, but overall she is racking up less damage, meaning it's harder to get to those same %s. It's definitely a light nerf though, that's for sure.

 

[Absol]

Sheik will have no problem racking up damage, and as a sheik main myself I constantly keep track of decay. I kept track of decay with ftilt in brawl, and i keep track of decay with uair in this game, with a new inclusion to fair. when you're opponent is past 100% you dont really need to do fair much anymore, only as a gtfo me move. when you get that grab pumble a couple of times to make fair fresh. Besides fair always did bad damage. If anything this will just teach us to use ftilt and dtilt more to get that early fair kill. A lot of light weight characters are amazing in this game, so it works out well for us.

Edit: not to mention that fair is affected by rage by 18 and uair is affected by 25. This numbers are huge compared how you can get a follow up from them. A fair may not seem like it does more knockback, but due to the growth rate and that rage growth rate, its going to be there for you when you need that tip. I've been killing people way easier now. It hardly matters that we do less damage due to the fact that were so safe anyway.

 

[Axel311]

Yeah, looks like Sheik got off really easy this patch. I honestly was expecting something more significant considering she's dominating tourneys all over the place. Like others said, if they nerfed needles I'd be OK with where the character is at. I know we're always going to have a best character but she makes so many characters not tourney viable that I think that more changes to her would be an overall positive for the competitive scene. If her camping game wasn't so amazing she'd probably be in a good spot.

 

[Absol]

they already did nerf needles lol

 

[leesinger]

they already did nerf needles lol

Give me one good reason why needles needs to have scaling knockback?

 

[Bujuhh]

Edit: not to mention that fair is affected by rage by 18 and uair is affected by 25. This numbers are huge compared how you can get a follow up from them. A fair may not seem like it does more knockback, but due to the growth rate and that rage growth rate, its going to be there for you when you need that tip. I've been killing people way easier now. It hardly matters that we do less damage due to the fact that were so safe anyway.

When you say fair is affected by rage by 18 and uair by 25, what do you mean?

 

[Absol]

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-true-ninja-never-lose-their-cool-sheik-rage-research-thread.385409/

 

[S_B]

The only move of Shiek's that I absolutely hate is her damn needles. They're so insanely fast that they just destroy a lot of characters at neutral. If her needles were reverted to her Brawl needles, I really wouldn't have any issues with this character at this point.

I agree.

At the very least, Shiek should be the one who has to approach opponents, not the other way around.

Maybe halving the distance traveled by needles would make it more bearable for other characters.

 

[Absol]

If sheik got no kb scale on needles then they would have to take away the extra lag they gave her to make them usable. She wouldn't gain momentum from them anymore, but at least put some damage on. There would be no reward for using them if they kept extra lag and no kb growth. The issue lies with the fact that she gains momentum from needles, not to make her projectile utterly useless

Edit: personally I think sheik is fine as she is. If she got gutted people will only find another thing to complain about

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Which strings are those? I tried out fair strings in training mode today and I've noticed no difference, still able to carry them the full length of FD at the same % as before.

Also I'm still not sure there has been increased landing lag, can you post a reliable source? Maybe I missed it.

The reason why you never noticed is because you probably auto-cancel the fair, also the increased lag is like 1 frame I believe so her fair has 11 frames of lag instead of 10, which is very minor and weird since they didn't change her auto-cancel window.

 

[Absol]

The reason why you never noticed is because you probably auto-cancel the fair, also the increased lag is like 1 frame I believe so her fair has 11 frames of lag instead of 10, which is very minor and weird since they didn't change her auto-cancel window.

Do you mean landing lag, or the fair itself has 11

 

[S_B]

Edit: personally I think sheik is fine as she is. If she got gutted people will only find another thing to complain about

The big problem is that Shiek is personally negating a huge portion of the cast right now. There are a number of characters that are literally just hosed by anyone counterpicking Shiek.

Now, the problem is that I don't even have any suggestions for how to fix it really, as I don't want to ruin Shiek's uniqueness, but the fact remains that a lot of characters would become at least viable if Shiek were toned down somehow.

 

[Deleted member]

The big problem is that Shiek is personally negating a huge portion of the cast right now. There are a number of characters that are literally just hosed by anyone counterpicking Shiek.

Now, the problem is that I don't even have any suggestions for how to fix it really, as I don't want to ruin Shiek's uniqueness, but the fact remains that a lot of characters would become at least viable if Shiek were toned down somehow.

Sheik is fine. You have to work for your kills and she dies easily. Yeah, you rack up tons of damage, but it takes forever to kill someone when most of the roster has easier kill moves overall.

 

[PhlipDarkRiot]

Do we know for sure if hitstun is directly related to knockback?

Like, I hear that changing damage affects knockback and hitstun by extension, but is it possible that the change from KBG doesn't affect hitstun, so combos become marginally more difficult in this case? I'm just curious.

Otherwise, it's just a minor damage nerf. I think that's fine though. If the devs nerf Sheik, someone else will probably take the top spot and we'll be back to square one. If there has to be one "best character", I'm glad it's someone who lacks a lot of raw KO power and has probably the worst damage-per-hit in the game, afaik.

 

[ShinRamen]

Ah, I believe that was my reason for saying that fair to grab would not be guaranteed in as many situations. I'm also not sure if hitsun is calculated before or after damage in smash 4, could anyone fill me in on that?

 

[Absol]

I did fair to grab literally 10 minutes ago

 

[ShinRamen]

Of course it works, but like I said, if the change negatively affects hitsun, it just won't be guaranteed in quite as many situations as before.

 

[Absol]

As far as I can tell with what I've tested hitstun is the same amount on both sour and sweet.