Shaymin-S: let's break this thing

[Deleted member]

I am of the personal opinion that Shaymin-S aka Skymin is totally overpowered. However, I also think that it has MUCH more potential than is currently being used.

So far, here's the most common set being used (it hasn't been out long enough to have a "standard" set).

Skymin @ Leftovers/ Life Orb
Timid
Serene Grace
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Seed Flare
Air Slash
Earth Power
Substitute

So far I've seen honorable mentions for ditching any of the above moves sans Air Slash for HP Ice, Leech Seed, etc. among other sets. I want to break this particular set, that is a special attacker with no particular gimmicks. We also have to consider Wide Lens, Yache Berry, Expert Belt, Lum Berry, etc. No SD or growth sets for this. I'll post mine as an example:

Skymin @ Yache Berry
Timid
Serene Grace
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Seed Flare
Air Slash
Earth Power
Substitute

I think Skymin is so amazing that if you Sub as a counter switches in, it's not really a counter anymore. However, this requires Stealth Rock in place to void Focus Sash and to bring him in on the revenge turn (not really hard in either case) to hopefully force a switch.

Skymin uses Yache Berry the same way Garchomp does. Aside from LO/CB Mamoswine, it can take SR and still eat stab Ice Shard like a champ. Without SR, it takes those too. Also, while a Sub won't use your berry when it, being at 50% from both SR and 1 sub will severely knock down your chances of survival from an ice move. Skymin doesn't mind them nearly as much at 75% health.

What I'm looking for: expansion on this particular set. This ranges to new moves, natures, EV spreads, and holds items so long as they're not gimmick sets. Let's see how far we can take this thing.

 

[Nova X81]

My normal setup baton passes agility to Heatran. But, if they swap in something that can kill him, I just pass it to Skymin instead. In case Skymin wasn't scary enough, having 776 speed secures his ability to destroy anything that it comes in contact with.

Combine that with a Yache berry to live Ice Shard and you have what usually amounts to a full team sweep.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I guess I should look more into this thing. I've been out of the loop for a while now. It seems broken lol.

 

[jigglyppuff8]

Since this thing's going to ubers, I just want to throw out the idea of a Groudon/weather set. However, I suck at this so...
Skymin @ Leftovers
??? Nature
Serene Grace
???
~Seed Flare
~HP Fire
~Synthesis
~???

Maybe?

 

[Deleted member]

I hope it gets banned, but if it isn't, we'll be the first ones exploiting it fully.

 

[ozg82889]

my scizor could last a while with the common skymin set. skymin would most likely kill a poke giving me the chance to switch it in unharmed.
scizor @ leftovers
careful nature/ technition
evs: 252 hp/ 80def/ 178 sp. def
moves:
bullet punch
quick attack
roost/ might change it to something else
protect

switch it in when it can't get hurt. sandstorm should be active so protect first to take 1/16 hp from skymin. next turn bullet punch does 30-35% so it would break a sub if one is up. if skymin attacks it would lose 10% from LO dmg. seed flare would do 15.17-18.31% air slash 39.24-46.22% and earth power 31.4-37.21% (with my leftovers+protect thats 3hko with those moves). next turn i would protect and with the previous turn get back 1/8 HP due to leftovers.
with no SR up and you not using substitute you would have 41.25-36.25% left one more bullet punch+sand storm + life orb and its at 0%
with no SR and you subbing it would be at 51.87% or so bullet punch +sandstorm+ life orb should kill you.
SR+subbing you would be at 27.5% guarantieng a ko with bullet punch. with luck i should be at around 10-20% enough to protect+ bullet punch/quick attack at least once more.

i usually do this to finish off weakend pokemon. infernapes around 30% don't expect it and usually die with me or i survive with a low % of health left.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I really can't think of anything more useful than those two sets. This is sort of like Garchomp, it doesn't have a huge movepool or anything but the one set he had was ******** good. Slapping a choice item on it is meaningless as it loves the ability to 2HKO Salamence with Seed Flare-Air Slash. Substitute is almost a prerequisite on the thing, it's basically like Swords Dance for Garchomp. Threre's some moderately gimmicky sets you could use like this:

Skymin@Salac Berry
Modest/Serene Grace
252SpAtk/252Spe/4Hp
-Substitute
-Seed Flare/Energy Ball
-Earth Power
-Air Slash/HP Ice/Hp Fire

Essentially the old Sub+Salac strategy only abusing the fact that you'll often get a free sub just because its ****ing skymin everything is afraid of it. With a Salac Boost you out speed just about everything in the game including Scarfgar. Petaya Berry is always a choice but considering the added boost wont let you OHKO anything significant your better off with the speed boost. Because this set is mainly for late game when your opponents team has been weakened, Seed Bomb may not be the best choice for your main STAB as the shaky accuracy may hurt you in the long run. As such Energy Ball is an acceptable replacement. The last shot is up for grabs, Air Slash is wonderful with its 60% flinch rate where as HP Ice/Fire is for Salamence and Scizor respectfully.

 

[Sheik_Pwns]

how about this ? Shaymin-S @ king's rock
{modest/serene grace}
252SpAtk/252Spe/4Hp
Air Slash
Zen headbutt
Hp Fire
seed flare
Basically you utilize the serene/rock %tage boost to air slash and zen headbutt hp fire takes out ice, steel, and bug types, whilst seed flare handles water and rock etc. packed with STAB

 

[Chill]

Modest

This is really the best way to go. I don't know if I'd used Salac since most pokemon that counter Skymin are slower. The extra power of modest over timid is really worth it and the loss of speed hardly matters since you have such a high base to work with anyway.

HP fire doesn't do anything for you though. Between Air slash and Earth Power you're already hitting grass and steel types for SE damage anyways.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It helps for Scizor how's a pain in Skymins side.

 

[Itakio]

Secret Power could be of use, 60% paralysis rate might help set up something...

 

[jigglyppuff8]

Secret Power could be of use, 60% paralysis rate might help set up something...

No, Skymin's fast enough already without a paralysis. It's role should be more of a sweeper than a status. Also, Air Slash = flinchax so paralysis isn't really needed and Secret Power sucks.

 

[ss118]

Specs can be found tearing **** up also. While it may not SEEM as practicle in theory, in practice you find even the "correct" switch-ins can't take a hit before going down(zapdos goes down against Seed flare w/ sp. defense drop, among others), and I find it trapping the opponent more than any other pokemon. It also doesn't need to worry as much about SR damage and it's HP at all really

 

[Chris is me]

The general consensus around upper Pokémon is that he's a perfectly managable threat.

Heatran is one of the most common Pokemon today, as with a Scarf and/or good prediction he beats every single Shaymin-S ever. Scizor is in a similar boat as well.

Stuff like Zapdos (if it's running Specs, then you'll need some SDef), Togekiss, Registeel, and the like are all "paper counters" if you must use them.

Seed Flare is somewhat overrated with its 8 PP and tendency to miss....

I mean, he's not a nonthreat, but he's not Garchomp either. It's very easy to prepare a team to handle him. From Heatran to Scizor to DX-S to Mamoswine to Togekiss to Zapdos to Calm Blissey, there is some room for stopping him on all kinds of teams. Before you go "x can't switch in to y", keep in mind that you could predict a different move, or force it out after a kill...

Also, it's a good habit when making claims (specs seed flare beats zapdos) to supply damage calcs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The general consensus around upper Pokémon is that he's a perfectly managable threat.

Heatran is one of the most common Pokemon today, as with a Scarf and/or good prediction he beats every single Shaymin-S ever.

Stuff like Zapdos (if it's running Specs, then you'll need some SDef), Togekiss, Registeel, and the like are all "paper counters" if you must use them.

Seed Flare is somewhat overrated with its 8 PP and tendency to miss....

I mean, he's not a nonthreat, but he's not Garchomp either. It's very easy to prepare a team to handle him.

Lol. Its a good thing Scarftran is the most popular pokemon ever or else I could make the statement: "Garchomp is a perfectly manageable threat. Weavile, with a Choice Band, beats every single Garchomp ever."

There's still the problem of you might not be immediately ready to counter a Skymin. What if it comes in on something like ANY pokemon's Earthquake(lets saaaaaaay, Swampert, something you just can't leave in) If it subs as you switch you can't counter it with Scarftran anymore. Its actually very similar to Garchomp in that it causes a switch when it comes in, then whatever switches into it can't immediately KO it, but Skymin has the added bonus of a 60% chance that you wont hit it as opposed to Garchomps 20% in sandstorm.

 

[Chill]

But in Shaymin's case (assuming SR) if he subs he's already at %50. That doesn't mean he can't still hurt your team but he is more manageable than Garchomp in that sense.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Not really. That just means it takes two hits to KO him, one for the sub, one to take him out, roughly the same thing as Chomp.

 

[Chris is me]

Weavile with a Choice Band doesn't beat Scarf Garchomp, nor can Weavile switch in on 75% of Garchomp's moveset...

Where did you get this "60%" number from? Huh? I honestly dont have the slightest clue what you are referring to here.

Subbing Skymin is a problem for some Pokémon (overly eager Heatrans mostly), but not for others (Zapdos). Sub Skymin isn't, you know, broken in the same sense as Grass resists can attempt to sponge attacks. Also, SR + Sub eats half of his health, another problem. Sub Skymin by no means guaranteees a kill as several Pokémon exist that he can't 2HKO.

Another point not often emphasized is that you don't always need to switch in something and immediately threaten it. What if you predicted the Sub and Ice Beamed with Swampert? A risky move, yes, but if it switched into SR (which it will), you'll see the Leftovers, meaning it's a Sub variant. Since any smart SubSkymin player isn't going to just risk wasting Seed Flare PP at random on switches when it could put up a Sub, you could end up eating its health with an Ice Beam, then switching to Zapdos or Heatran or whomever as it hopefully Seed Flares.

The "Shaymin == Chomp" comparison isn't really that fair. Not a lot can threaten Garchomp, only powerful Ice Beams from very bulky Pokémon, which is what made Yache Berry so great. Skymin, on the other hand, is dealt horrible offensive and defensive typing, giving it many weaknesses, as well as much much less bulk. Skymin also has no annoying hax trait nor a lack of "paper counters"... I think you're oversimplifying a bit.

 

[Chill]

Yes but one of the things that made Garchomp a bigjerkface was that if things didn't look good (say you outpredict the user) he could always come back in and try again. Skymin has that option but not to the extent that Garchomp did. And he doesn't have sand veil turning those 2 hits to kill into 3 or more. Skymin is force to be reckoned (and he will possibly find his way to ubers) but in terms of resistance he doesn't match Garchomp. Lower defense, more weakness, SR weak, etc.

edit: Chris is me, you're in my way! >:-( That post is directed to pink reaver.

 

[ss118]

I don't think that Skymin has horrible offensive typing considering that it gets dual STAB that works off its higher attack stat and has incredible side effects to go along with it. Of course it doesn't hold the similar defensive capabilities that made Chomp uber(only two weaknesses, one only used on pokemon with STAB, and only two pokemon even resisted both STAB, not to mention SS immunity and SR resistance). Not to mention Chomp is versatile and predicting the wrong set costs you a pokemon(but in DP, any pokemon can pull that off ;P).