Social SGD: The hedgehogs are back in town.

[Browny]

a 1 stock tie breaker is not biased against Lucario lol?

also susa I have debated Sonics use of HA as a legal tactic rather extensively while you were gone... If you want to see how it all went down, check for the dozens of pages discussing it in the tier list 3.1 thread, why fix what isnt broken, when banning is illegitimate and fix the stalling rule please. I CBF linking it all because its been done to death and the only result is that yes, HA stalling is legal. Unfortunately, TO's are allowed to disqualify a player because of it. Arguing about it here is pointless, it only matters in-person if someone happens to get called out for it since ultimately its their tournament, they make their own rules and you paid to enter so you accepted that agreement :/

 

[Espy Rose]

You wanna know something funny?

Earlier, much earlier, when people uproared for a MK ban, one argument against that was "There hasn't been enough time passed to make an educated decision on what to do with him". That's fine, I understand and can agree with collecting tournament data and looking at matches for a bit before making a large decision like that.

Not too long ago, it was brought up again, and one of the arguments against it was that "It's been too long, MK is already too intertwined with the metagame/community and banning him will make too many people quit/upset".

Lol.

Seriously.
God. Every time I hear about this, DMG, I get angry.
Legitimately, and with absolute certainty, angry.

What the **** is wrong with people?
It pisses me off to no end that people constantly hide behind these absurd remarks concerning Meta Knight's behavior within the game's competitive mechanisms.

It's never too late to change something. I mean, we just got rid of Bowsercides after, what, 2+ rulesets?

a 1 stock tie breaker is not biased against Lucario lol?

<HA Stuff>

A 1-Stock tie breaker is totally biased when it comes to Lucario. But that's a character dependent trait, much like how Ganondorf sucks versus...well...anyone.

And yeah, it's a shame about the HA. I'm too scared to use it down here because TO nuts like Xyro will DQ me for doing it, rationality be ****ed.

 

[SuSa]

You wanna know something funny?

Earlier, much earlier, when people uproared for a MK ban, one argument against that was "There hasn't been enough time passed to make an educated decision on what to do with him". That's fine, I understand and can agree with collecting tournament data and looking at matches for a bit before making a large decision like that.

Not too long ago, it was brought up again, and one of the arguments against it was that "It's been too long, MK is already too intertwined with the metagame/community and banning him will make too many people quit/upset".

Lol.

May I may spend the next 5 years laughing at this? I think I will.

Now how about this:

There have been a large amount of people that have actually quit because of Meta Knight. Banning him could possibly bring them back, and a large number of people who "main" Meta Knight have only switched to him to try and prove how broken he is to the BBR. (Please see: Overswarm) Or they've just started giving up on their main (Please see: Ally)

Banning him would actually do more overall good in the community than it would do bad... I do see people being pissed (see: Tyrant), but if they are truly good enough, competitive players... wouldn't they be placing near the top regardless?

It adds more diversity (now that your best option isn't "Pick MK".. due to everyone else in the game having a counter =|)

Also I'm only against him in singles.... I feel he's perfectly fine in doubles (Even if it's still MK+MK... )

Also people holding side tournaments banning him just isn't enough. This needs to be a more widespread thing that brings results. Just banning him at a tourney here or there doesn't allow the metagame to grow and prosper without him. Maybe without everyone focusing on "how to win the MK matchup" players and their characters can actually grow and expand to a point where other characters' metagame can actually catch up to MK's.

I do see the issue of saying "Oh he's banned... well...now he's not" - but this can be the players choice... if enough people feel he is no longer warranted for the ban (due to no longer being able to overcentralize the developed metagame) than that's it? Right? (It's doubtful he'd be able to advance further to centralize it again.... comparing him to other characters, I'd say other characters' metagames are nowhere near as developed...)

Let it be known I don't usually advocate for his ban, I just ***** and moan about him.

@espy

Hmm... I'll speak to TO's about it.

No one will ban it because of how many people are too scared to stray from BBR's ruleset

 

[Espy Rose]

The opposite, SuSa.
Very few TOs follow the BBR Ruleset exactly as is.
Very few.

You should really go read the 3.0 Ruleset update. People got so angry over almost zero changes to the rule set.

Also, how about this, for you specifically:

Banning Meta Knight would free up the time that you ***** and moan about him, giving you opportunities to do more productive things.

~

 

[SuSa]

I see plenty of TO's following the BBR's ruleset down to a very fine point.

Most will ignore the non-existant ban on DDD's small-step CG, perhaps his infinites on 4 characters (I don't see this very often), and the reccommended stage list.

I can see them ignoring the Bowser/Ganoncide rulings nowadays.

But otherwise I see plenty of people following the BBR ruleset very closely... they just change things for certain mains to increase attendance. (Seeing as how DDD's small-step CG on Wolf isn't totally needed for the DDD to win.. but it makes Wolf unviable)

Of course the BBR wouldn't support a ban on that, but most TO's do from what I see.. because again... increases attendance. =P

The thing with completely banning a CHARACTER however is tricky, and most anti-ban groups use the results of these tourneys to try and prove MK isn't over-centralizing... even though the # of MK/Non-MK tourneys is scewed to such epic proportions, and with MK to strong in the scene - we wouldn't see any change in the metagame for non-mk tourneys anyways.....

 

[Espy Rose]

Hypothetically, a Meta Knight-less tournament environment could potentially be the craziest thing in the world.

So many counters, so little time~

Sonic could actually get WORSE, since his tougher match ups (Falco, Lucario) may become more viable without Meta Knight, but that's hard to tell since Falco and Lucario's tough matches (ICs/Pika/Kirby/Marth/ROB and Dedede/Olimar/Snake) may become more active, but THAT'S hard to tell because...

...holy ****, you have a dynamic meta-game!

 

[SuSa]

You mean we'd have a game that relies on counterpicking your opponent again?

The only large buff I see is from Martha... but more and more of his matchups I hear are getting harder for him, even disadvantageous... so it's not just Mk countering him anymore.

I think the slippery-slope argument and the "lol then we'd just ***** and moan about Snake" is bull****.

1) Just because we ban one doesn't mean we'll need to again. NOBODY is even CLOSE to filling MK's shoes.

2) Snake has counters/stupidly even matchups: Martha, Failco, DDD, Diddy Kong, LOLImar....

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah. Marth doesn't do so hot vs. King Dedede, from what I hear. And Diddy Kong is an annoying match up as well.

 

[Browny]

Sonic could actually get WORSE, since his tougher match ups (Falco, Lucario) may become more viable without Meta Knight, but that's hard to tell since Falco and Lucario's tough matches (ICs/Pika/Kirby/Marth/ROB and Dedede/Olimar/Snake) may become more active, but THAT'S hard to tell because...

...holy ****, you have a dynamic meta-game!

Lmao espy wins this thread and everything else regarding banning metaknight.

 

[SuSa]

I'm going to go tarnish any reputation I have, and be the center of many a flames...

Goodbye, cruel world.

 

[Kinzer]

*Sniff*

He just got back too. ;_;

And I didn't even get to tell him that I heard somewhere that Tyrant may not be all that against a MK main, despite being a MK player himself.

R.I.P.

 

[SuSa]

Posted the thread, goodbye any rep I had.

I'm not going to quit if nothing happens, I don't even expect anything to happen - but the general public needs to realize that something needs to happen or nothing will change.

I left for 9 months, and absolutely. nothing. changed. NOTHING.

No metagame development, people just got smarter and started using things WE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT. Meaning the general public improved, but not the metagame... just the players.

 

[Kinzer]

I know you weren't going to quit (or at least, I assumed you weren't, you really did only just get back afterall), I was just poking fun at how your rep would be kind of tarnished, but screw that, others will still respect you (if only because they share the same opinion of "ban MK").

Hmm~, the next couple of days may play out quite well if I can do the last Pre-Calc assignment and the chapter exam tomorrow... If not, I'll be in kind of thin ice...

Sleepy timez nao?

Edit: Not before I post this stuff though:

Bombs count in the same way as any other projectile.

neither the reflector nor the projectile get on the stale list not even if the reflected projectile hit a third one.

If a move gets countered it counts as hitting an invincible enemy so it doesn't count for the stale list.

1. Upon exploding, or coming into contact?

No wait, I'm thinking Snake's grenades, which are on a timer, or explode if hit by a hitbox, so that will have its own thing. Bombs... are weird, but as a general rule for me; if they come into contact with a hurtbox, then they explode. I think me asking a question about this will fall into the next paragraph, so:

I'm just trying to think whether or not if the bomb is caught (or perhaps in this case isn't thrown at all and Link/T.Link just hold on to it and let the fuse burn) if it will refresh the stale list of the person holding on to it, or the person who spawned it regardless of current ownership.

2. Thank you.

3. Oh, I didn't know that. Cool.

He hasn't gotten back to my response about the first one yet. Time difference, my post just being posted like 5 minutes ago and him needing to actually look at it, think about it, yada yada yada. I'm going to sleep before he may (if he does) respond to it, and if he doesn't get back to me on that before I wake up and finish my schoolwork I'll gladly get it. If he does, you'll have to wait for me to let you know either way, so~...

I'll still look into the specific details. With all due honesty the explanation for the second query wasn't clear, but I don't want to admit that in the thread back at the SL, so I'll just investigate that myself. :S Plus maybe detailed data hasn't been collected yet, so why not?

 

[SuSa]

3:30am and I have an interview at 11:30, I need to be up by 9 to shower, press my clothes, eat, and drive over to my job interview.

I should REALLY get to bed as well....

 

[infomon]

I'm all for more transparency, and so seems to be the case with a majority of the researchers. We're pretty much just getting most/all of the data before it's released to the public it seems, afterall incomplete/inaccurate information does nobody much good, or in the case of the latter is counterproductive.

This is exactly what any secretive group claims when its lack of transparency is challenged.

Smash Labbers are just as falliable as anyone. If you want to keep n00b posts out of serious threads, then moderate them for content. But allow everyone to see partial progress, so that anyone can point out mistakes, challenge assertions or theories, and most importantly: contribute.

But it's not as "cool" that way, people don't get their elitism and colourful names and such.

BBR's secrecy is the reason why the past five pages of this thread have described many mistakes of the BBR, and yet nobody can be held accountable for any of these errors. There's no justice for all the non-BBR people who had argued, correctly, why many of the "official rules" were just plain backwards, formed by "pros" with wrong, ignorant ideas about the game.

 

[Sonic_King]

I don't know about you, Browny, but from what I've seen, there's virtually nothing that is known in the BBR that hasn't been released to the public in some way, shape, or form.

I just think it's ridiculous that you have to point a finger at the entire organization, when it's really only an individual or two that's really causing the problem.

And if it seriously bothers you so much, you could always apply yourself, and fix the problem from the inside-out, just like Kewkky suggested to the public several times already. Influencing those in higher places WILL have an effect, I guarantee you that much.

All in all, the BBR only knows the conglomeration of information given by each individual character main. Again, blaming the entire group because of the inaction of a few (which you assume) just sounds completely silly.

@Turbo: You've never seen a speed-run. That's the only explanation that makes sense.
Not to mention you can't get all 7 Chaos Emeralds in Emerald Hill Zone Act 1.

u can debug lol

 

[Espy Rose]

You can't debug for speed runs, Turbo.
Not even TAS use debug mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82B8uHgrCIA&feature=related

Suddenly, 18 seconds seems reasonable, no?

@infzy: Why are you LOOKING for someone to blame? All that can be done is for the BBR to learn and fix any mistakes that are made.

Again, you're only proving that the public just wants to blame the BBR instead of actually helping them out, since that's all your post really did. Did you even see the Ruleset 3.0? The regular users tore it apart like sharks. Moderators had a difficult time doing their job because of the volume of flamers and whatnot.

It's not as simple as "moderate the topic". Just look at the Tactical Discussion, and all of the locked threads that it spawned. It's difficult to seek out all of the insightful information when you have to weed out all of the fruitless posts/threads first.

 

[Suspect]

Yeah. Marth doesn't do so hot vs. King Dedede, from what I hear. And Diddy Kong is an annoying match up as well.

marth players over react

 

[infomon]

I'm not looking for someone to blame, it's more like this: when people are actually held accountable, they stop saying as much ignorant nonsense (particularly, self-motivated nonsense regarding what's good for their own character, etc.).

Also, it's not about criticizing them when they're wrong. The purpose is to simply know what the reasons are for decisions, so that later we can re-evaluate those choices when we've gained more experience.

Think back to what happened with Brawl. The game came out, and the BBR BANNED LOTS OF STAGES. We were all told that their "superior wisdom" suggested stuff should be "obviously banned" when in fact many of these people were just total SCRUBS. But "regular" people weren't even given reasons for the vast majority of bans. This is dumb. To this day, most Brawlers don't know the *actual* reasons why a lot of the stages are gone; they just have to accept that the BBR came to a decision, because we aren't allowed to know the real reasons. There are small quips here and there, but we can't view or take part in the actual debate that brought about the decisions.

 

[Browny]

Everything in the above post is 100% perfect fact.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's true. From what I understand, the BBR was very unorganized and all that jazz back in the day. You can see the difference in the forms of released information in the Ruleset 3.1 thread, Tier List thread, etc etc.

We've been more open to give out information than before, I would think. Reasons for banning or unbanning things have been posted in either thread. By all means, as of the last BBR admittance, the BBR on the whole has been more open with their information, haven't they?

It's an improvement, but there's still more to do, of course.
I don't know completely how the BBR functioned back then, but there's gotta be a reason why some of the older members are saying that the current BBR is better than what they've ever had before.

 

[Trent]

You wanna know something funny?

Earlier, much earlier, when people uproared for a MK ban, one argument against that was "There hasn't been enough time passed to make an educated decision on what to do with him". That's fine, I understand and can agree with collecting tournament data and looking at matches for a bit before making a large decision like that.

Not too long ago, it was brought up again, and one of the arguments against it was that "It's been too long, MK is already too intertwined with the metagame/community and banning him will make too many people quit/upset".

Lol.

This angered the crap outa me when I heard this.

Real reason MK isn't banned: MK mains make too much money.

 

[Espy Rose]

Then Omni locked SuSa's topic.
This is the first time in SWF history that I've been furious about anything.

Absolutely furious.

 

[Trent]

Where's the link?

 

[Espy Rose]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288442

 

[Trent]

That's do dumb.

They're only done discussing it because they don't wanna hear about it anymore, even though its CLEAR tons of people are still unhappy about it.

Considering making a thread and just quoting everything in Su's OP to be a ****.

 

[Browny]

Pity thats only half the problem solved.

Posting your reasoning is good to get an idea on why certain changes are made, the question that remains is why should the public respect those decisions.

By keeping the public ignorant about the thought processes as they happen, the BBR is completely unnacountable. Once the changes are made, thats it. The BBR is absolved of a lack of intelligence and the only people who ARE held accountable for their actions are the ones who actually let themselves be and willingly front the public and argue their case. pity by then its too late, and you get things like ruleset 3.0 existing.

omfg @ locking thread. THE CONSPIRACY IS REAL.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Didn't Omni start that Social Group for TOs who would continue to make MK legal in their tournaments even if MK was banned?

It doesn't mean anything at all, but it's kinda amusing.

 

[Trent]

Omni's a biased little..

w/e, I hope he namesearches this like a champ.

 

[SuSa]

Then Omni locked SuSa's topic.
This is the first time in SWF history that I've been furious about anything.

Absolutely furious.

You weren't in the middle of writing a 3 page essay, hitting submit, only to find you can't post it.

THAT PISSED ME OFF.

Waste of 30 minutes of my morning, and in 15 minutes I have to get ready for my job interview.

 

[Sonic_King]

You can't debug for speed runs, Turbo.
Not even TAS use debug mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82B8uHgrCIA&feature=related

Suddenly, 18 seconds seems reasonable, no?

@infzy: Why are you LOOKING for someone to blame? All that can be done is for the BBR to learn and fix any mistakes that are made.

Again, you're only proving that the public just wants to blame the BBR instead of actually helping them out, since that's all your post really did. Did you even see the Ruleset 3.0? The regular users tore it apart like sharks. Moderators had a difficult time doing their job because of the volume of flamers and whatnot.

It's not as simple as "moderate the topic". Just look at the Tactical Discussion, and all of the locked threads that it spawned. It's difficult to seek out all of the insightful information when you have to weed out all of the fruitless posts/threads first.

so i take it u took the high route all the way towards the end.. or i must watch it for myself

 

[SuSa]

Loooopholllesss [**** I love being ex staff and knowing the rules... forgot about the MK ban discussion rule though]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11356602#post11356602

 

[Trent]

I think I might be a troll.

 

[SuSa]

And why do you think that? XD

 

[Trent]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288455

lul

 

[SuSa]

Not going to respond to the thread, just to keep my neck out of the water.

But I brought up the issue of dissallowing Metaknight/Metagame discussions.

 

[Trent]

Eh, I don't expect people to respond anyways.

 

[Coney]

don't worry fellas, the MKs have found a character they go even with, for REAL this time, and his name is yoshi bowser snake falco wario ice climbers diddy FOX.

 

[Trent]

<3<3 Coney.

 

[SuSa]

And yea, that was trolling.

Really direct trolling. =/ Expect an infraction if any mod sees it...

I keep my trolling hidden, secretive, and filled with loopholes to avoid infractions and the like to avoid any amount of trouble or being called out for trolling, when it's oh so obvious I'm not...

EDIT:
LOLOLOL CONEY... <3 that made my morning