Meta Set Ph1r3 To The Rain - Roy Matchup Discussion [Zelda, Mario, Sheik 7.26.15-8.6.15]

[Solutionme]

I stopped reading after that. Short-hop F-air, N-air, and F-tilt are all relatively safe if executed well. On top of this, Roy's throws are better than Marth's and can juggle the **** out of him with his weight thanks to down throw into up-tilt/up-b.

If we're talking about landing lag, Roy wins with the N-air (15 vs 16) and F-air (16 vs 18) landing lag games for sure. Check the actual data, though it doesn't seem like much with a few frames,combine it with his mobility and it gives much more life to these attacks.

Marth does win in verticle recovery, though his horizontal is lacking with side-b being risky as **** and customs not the in the picture. Roy's up-b is not only a kill move and follow up, but can imitate a the customs of Marth with directional input alone. And in a no-customs match, that ****'s cash (though I admit your right that Marth win's with recovery options especially with customs in the picture).

In terms of play style, Roy shouldn't be high risk really. His combo options from his grabs are in the same vein of reliability as mario with the down throw options. His kill options both early and later are much more vast than Marth's, and they both have the ~157% up throw kill for cheese.

When fighting, Marth has to rely on spacing and punishing poor smashes/tilts/etc. with tipers and other moves. Most of the other options Marth has lack follow-up on their own, and can be read for days. Roy doesn't need to rely on that against Marth or anyone else thanks to his speed and combo potential.

If Marth wasn't garbage, I would be agreeing with you. But times have changed, and Roy is the boy now

Still wrong about Marth's nair though, got reduced to 12 frames I believe. Roy can't really combo with the end of his blade either due to poor hitstun, so he can only space with it, which ends up being more ineffective than Marth due to the lower shieldstun and hitstun, not to mention like EmblemLord stated, most moves that Roy uses in the same fashion as Marth to space tend to have slightly less range( though tbh that never is too much of an issue ). Also you mean neutral b as a recovery, which isn't risky if you mix it up by releasing it before it fully charges, which btw still gives some distance, or just charging it completely. So in the end, to actually get results with Roy, you need to be able to get in there, which just so happens what Marth counters effectively, especially now that utilt and nair got less ending and landing lag respectively. Also due to Roy's fall speed, Marth has an easier time comboing him compared to other characters, Marth is known for having bad MUs against Floaties such as Dedede, though tbh his range, weight and recovery adds to the difficulty. Roy isn't a floaty, and once he is in the air, expect having a hard time getting back on stage since you could get air dodge landing lag if you try to air dodge an attack from Marth. Btw, because Marth has safer moves and slightly superior range in moves you use to space, Roy is forced to half the time be conditioned by shielding despite being quick. This is such a huge issue for Roy because Marth could easily just whip out a shield breaker and due to the increased frames one is forced to sit inside their shield in smash 4, break it and get an early kill, just because he conditioned you. Btw good luck not getting stuck in frame traps that lead into to easy f-smash tippers, that fall speed means you better be good at teching, otherwise you're put into tech roll or frame trap situations with very low lag moves Marth has such as d-tilt and f-tilt around high to mid percents respectively. Also I don't want to say Marth's jab is better than Roy's, but against fast fallers it is since there is less space to move around, making the mindgame it offers easier to use, since half the time you'll be jumping out or trying to land with an attack, which isn't safe at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Solutionme laying down that science like a true Fire Emblem warrior.

Fire Emblem lab work too stronk

 

[WakerofWinds]

I see the tipper advantage here on paper, and it seems solid, but I haven't seen it play out in a match yet. Anybody feel like destroying me with Marth (I'm really not that great) so I can get a better handle on his strengths? So far I'm still feeling as though the matchup is 50-50.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly I did over exaggerate. It's prolly like 55/45 Marth. Virtually even.

The stronger player will always win.

 

[2L8]

When I fight zoners or just projectile based characters, I n-air to get past a lot of the stuff they throw out, seems to work well in hard MU's

 

[Deatheggx56]

I feel like helping with our boy here, so if anyone wants to give me a hand, that would be sweet.
Ill be doing roy vs robin, like what i posted in the ryu thred, just to make things easier.
So after some testing will do kill percentages and what not.

 

[Solutionme]

Solutionme laying down that science like a true Fire Emblem warrior.

Fire Emblem lab work too stronk

Thanks for the compliment! <insert flustered emoticon>
Btw I did my first tournament and The compliments for my gameplay with Marth was nice. Although I lost pretty quick to two peeps whose matches with me were damn close, I saw my mistakes. I was playing a little to much with the tourny nerves and didn't get too aggressive and used my shield a bit. Twas fun though.

 

[Narshen]

Any thoughts on the Pikachu matchup? I feel like I have a mountain to climb every time I have to face this character. Pikachu's projectile and overall dominance in the neutral do an effective job of keeping Roy out while any unsafe move could be met with nasty aerial combos, followed by a potential gimp thanks to Roy's underwhelming recovery. So far the only way I've been able to keep this matchup halfway honest is through hard F-smash reads...

 

[mmkzer0]

Some thoughts on Roy vs. Marth
So me and my Bro played this game for a very Long time now, with him maining Marth (being a decent one) and me Lucina. After a short time playing Roy I decided to main him and play a bunch of games against my Bro and noticed some things:
1) Marth's outrange over Roy can be a thing
A good Marth switches between defensive Spacing and Offensive pressure with edgeguarding. Marth has good Struggles and Edgeguards to make it hard for Roy to get back on the Stage. Your only option is to recover really low, otherwise Marth will outrange you when trying get on Stage by throwing out Attacks, and even a dodge is not Safe when your opponent got a good read. Finally, he can jump into his Recovery with a Counter (what Roy can do as well, but Marth's UpB is faster than Roy's, 5F against 9F)
As his Range goes, he can be devistating for Roy in the air. NAir and Fair will outrange, and if they do, hit with the Tipper.
His Tilts will do the same as everything mentioned before, same goes for his Smashes.
So, how to deal with this? The best answere is Roy's mobility over Marth. Dancing around and not giving him space can work out very well. Grabing can interrupt his plays and set up combos pretty well
2) The Kill-Power
As we all know, Roy got no problem killing people: his utilt/ftilt, bair/dair, FSmash/USmash and NeutralB/UpB. He can kill with ease at around 60% at the Ledge.
However, a good Marth is using his Tipper consistently. This means allmost as much Kill-Power for Marth, killing people with his SideSmash at 60% (at the Ledge). UpSmash is a good Anti-Air Tool. Due to his range and the Tipper he can gimp people by far easier than Roy. But then again, Roy just got more Options.
3) The Tipper
As said before, due to his spacing, a good Marth will consistently hit with his Tipper when trying to go for a hit. At this Point Roy can't go with the Space-Game for two Reasons. First, he's going to get outtanged and being hit by a Tipper. Second, if he trys to space as well Roy will most likely hit Marth with the tip of his Sword which deals less damage. This IS a Double-Advantage for Marth: Roy deals less damage when he get's hit (which won't happen that much), but at the same time he deals more damage when Roy get's hit (which is more likely)
This is just my opinion and experience so far (sorry for any grammatical issues)

 

[Breadloaf]

Does Roy or Marth have the better grab? Im not referring to combos out of grab just the physical act of landing one.

 

[mmkzer0]

I think Marth's Normal/Dash-Grab got a higher Range than Roy's, but he got the better Pivot one

 

[Dr. Snakes]

Honestly, the Grabs feel about even to me, just from playing both characters for a while. Don't have any actual data on it though. Roy's speed seems to just make grabbing with him a better option than with Marth.

 

[DunnoBro]

One thing I like doing against chars with combo breaker aerials, is fthrow > shield > blazer at kill percents. Covers the aerial, landing, AND potential jump away.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I dont know if this is huge or anything, but I was labbing just now, comparing Marth and Roys damage outputs per strike with their sweetspots and sourspots and it seems like Roy out damages Marth on the per strike basis with everything but dtilt, up air, DB forward combo, and flare blade when charged for anything equal or less than the duration of shieldbreakers full charge. Most of Roys attacks do between 1-4 damage more than Marths, depending on which attack. Roys sweetspot is stronger than marths sweetspot and Roys sourspot is stronger than marths sourspot. Please correct me if I'm wrong but thats what it seems from testing.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Marth can't roll behind Roy's Fsmash on reaction and land his own Fsmash; Roy can to Marth, though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly I feel like blaze sword is more versatile than the standard "let me charge this while landing/you're landing and hope you fall into it" kind of move it looks like.

The shield push, lack of endlag, and coverage (ability to challenge ledge grabs and get-ups) makes it seem like a move you really can just throw out and gain advantage/remain neutral more often than lose advantage. The main benefit though, is just how little endlag it has. A disadvantaged opponent is often forced to jump to avoid it, and roy is great at juggling and catching opponents without jumps, especially with blazer making most normally safe aerial landings death OoS.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Marth has to play extremely defensie against Roy. Roy out combos him easily.

I fought a marth friendly the other day and he had a very tough time staying in the defensive. I was able to keep a lot of pressure.

However I noticed I had to be much more careful in the air against him... Especially offstage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Marth has to play extremely defensie against Roy. Roy out combos him easily.

I fought a marth friendly the other day and he had a very tough time staying in the defensive. I was able to keep a lot of pressure.

However I noticed I had to be much more careful in the air against him... Especially offstage.

I think most characters need to play defensive v roy. His rewards for being aggressive are top tier, and his shield is particularly strong due to throw combos and blazer.

 

[Beach]

Just a thought as I haven't played the matchup at all but Rosalina (Especially with customs) looks to be an incredibly difficult matchup as she can basically ignore our spacing so killing Luma asap is a must.

 

[Solutionme]

Just a thought as I haven't played the matchup at all but Rosalina (Especially with customs) looks to be an incredibly difficult matchup as she can basically ignore our spacing so killing Luma asap is a must.

Shouldn't really be too hard imo, Roy kills pretty quick and if you suspect the teleport, just counter. I believe Rosa can't run up after it due to the animation lag and the fact that there is no way outside of desynching for her to walk up to you while luma combos you, or at least tries to. Plus Rosalina has a very light weight, I wouldn't be surprised if you kill her of an air dodge read or even a back air at 90 to 100%.

 

[sparkaura]

You can short hop fair and if Rosa shields Lima gets swatted away and you and jump away to reset neutral. The Mu doesn't seem hard, having disjoints on all our moves help kill Lima pretty easily.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ness seems like an ass MU. Combos Roy super hard, kills with backthrow early due to fast falling, every grab is huge for ness. Either fair strings or gets us off stage for a free PKT which we can't even begin to avoid.

And roy can't combo/follow-up on him well due to the ridiculous air dodge.

Considering Roy's stage preferences, and general matchup issues, I'd say sonic is his best secondary. Roy is better against Yoshi, ZSS, and perhaps falcon. Which are either bad or awkward matchups for sonic according to Seagull Joe. Sonic also likes spacious and safe stages like FD, Duck Hunt, and smashville whereas Roy likes Aggressively paced stages like BF, Dreamland, and Halberd.

And sonic is in much better against projectile users, and chars with good edgeguards on Roy like ness.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Is Pikachu Roy's worst matchup?

 

[Solutionme]

Is Pikachu Roy's worst matchup?

Probably not, Sheik looks worse since she doesn't die as early and gimps better. Pika is probably an even MU just cause Roy kills stupidly early despite getting hurt easily.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik is nowhere near as bad as ness. The neutral game is worse, but every other aspect is worse vs ness. Can't combo him like sheik, he edgeguards you better and more consistently sets up for said edgeguards...

In general I think roy is fine against floaties, especially ones hitting your shield more often than they grab it so they die early to blazer... But ness is just unbearable.

 

[Solutionme]

Sheik is nowhere near as bad as ness. The neutral game is worse, but every other aspect is worse vs ness. Can't combo him like sheik, he edgeguards you better and more consistently sets up for said edgeguards...

In general I think roy is fine against floaties, especially ones hitting your shield more often than they grab it so they die early to blazer... But ness is just unbearable.

Probably, but I don't think it is as hard as you say it is. When I go against Ness as Roy, I usually just play more like Marth since PK fire is probably death for me. The only moves Ness really has to challenge Roy with while staying safe is PK fire, thunder if Roy is offstage and a SH fair into the shield and finishing the animation behind him. I think the goal is to not get grabbed or get hit by a dash attack which has good range. Pk fire isn't too much of an issue since at low percent you can DI out. I haven't tried countering when i get caught inside of it yet since I usually don't get hit by PK fire. Honestly I'd treat PK fire the same way I do with Marth, up-b or down-b if you are caught in it or just SHFF over it. Perfect shielding it works too. Ness has to be careful approaching you since using either of the two specials pretty much means he can get punished for trapping you. I do have to argue that because Roy doesn't have a tipper, it is harder for him to keep neutral and keep Ness out. Since Roy is a fast faller he could die to an easy read off of pk thunder 2, which means Roy can get hurt bad even if he jumps out since most of the time you will. Along with him being a fast faller, he is just easier to combo

So to sum up how I feel the MU should be played, play it like Marth, and when the opportunity comes at low percents, concentrate on being aggressive, especially if you have the stock lead, cause one good sweetspot f-smash means Ness is offstage and the gimp is there.

I feel the MU is even, if it was Marth, he would have the advantage just because he can keep Ness out better and gimp him easier, and when you have that much range and safe moves, you really shouldn't be shielding much.
I just so happens Roy has slightly less range, the lack of a tipper and maybe 1 to 2 frames of more lag on average(correct me if i am wrong, I know some moves have more lag) than Marth, making it harder for him to rack up damage while at the same time keeping himself safe. I pretty much have to say this, concentrate on just using the grab combos and strings until you hit higher percents, then just throw Ness offstage, don't try baiting him at low percents since you can't push him far and any smart player would use their safest moves when approaching or inside the neutral.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hi Roy mains!

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-roy.407886/

The Charizard boards are discussing the Charizard vs Roy matchup.

So head on over and tell us what you think! :D

vs

 

[Solutionme]

Hi Roy mains!

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-roy.407886/

The Charizard boards are discussing the Charizard vs Roy matchup.

So head on over and tell us what you think! :D

vs

Charizard got some buffs, don't mind reminding me about it?

 

[H-O-G]

D-tilt is def safe. Nair is now safe. Full jump fair is definitely safe. Marth does more shield pushback when he tippers. So when you fast fall a nair he gives his opponent more shield stun and shield push back. His tippers also give him more hitlag but the landing will nullify that allowing to maximize the effect of the tipper. Thats why its safe. Before it wasnt as it had alot of cooldown. This is no longer the case. Just so we are clear Sheiks fair has 10 frames of cooldown and that is safe. When you consider Marths range and the extra pushback, no one can get free damage off a blocked nair.

Also remember that marth, can kill roy's approach from the air and the ground with jab alone. Marth can easily slow roy's momentum of offense. Also marth can dthrow roy into up air reliably, so if run comes 2 close and whiffs smelting he can end up in the juggle trap of his life

 

[Solutionme]

Also remember that marth, can kill roy's approach from the air and the ground with jab alone. Marth can easily slow roy's momentum of offense. Also marth can dthrow roy into up air reliably, so if run comes 2 close and whiffs smelting he can end up in the juggle trap of his life

How is jab not our best move as Marth mains honestly? I'm about to start using it with heavy dancing blade for some stupid kills around 40% or 30% combos.

Speaking of which does EVO plan to change the custom moves list? Some moves due to character changes are better, while others are wose.

 

[Project Crysis]

I feel like in the vs MU Roy shouldn't really be trying to approach and should focus on just stopping approaches, but even then it might not be the best strat still

 

[DunnoBro]

How is jab not our best move as Marth mains honestly? I'm about to start using it with heavy dancing blade for some stupid kills around 40% or 30% combos.

Speaking of which does EVO plan to change the custom moves list? Some moves due to character changes are better, while others are wose.

After august. Post-evo and presumably the next update comes with customs patches

 

[Solutionme]

So, a MU I want an opinion on for is the Samus MU. Can Roy get past Custom Samus and not get frame trapped with his fast fall speed? Samus is known for being very good with customs since she can literally lay out a wall of projectiles that you have to be forced to hit to try and get in. However she is floaty so Ry can fast fall to regain a jump quickly. What can Roy do to kill her and safely get past her zair, slow missiles, and charge shot spam? In return, what will Samus do if we are in her face, and please don't say dodge, Samus dodging is a funny joke.

 

[FlAlex]

Samus dodging is a funny joke.

You don't know about SHAD then (SHAD= Short Hop Air Dodge).

If ya wanna, I can play vanilla Samus. I can't do customs though cuz I don't have any of her good ones, and I don't play customs.
As a Samus main, I have no idea how Roy would cope with Samus, other than play like sonic (bait, bait, dance, and bait some more before you can close in on her.) To get past her Zair, either SHAD into her or walk underneath her. It depends on how high she jumps. I cannot speak on slow missiles. Charge shot spam? Just bait it, force her to waste it, and charge again. IF the Samus smart enough to fire CS at random charge-levels, then you just gotta jump over it or anticipate a SH>CS (though that is rare do to Samus' fall speed). You can obviously shield most of these projectiles safely since Samus's grab is slow. Just be careful not to shield against a fully charged CS, cuz that thing can break shields. What Samus would do when Roy got in finally, would try to escape his combos and re-start the match into neutral. How she would accomplish this is unknown to me. If my Samus was above Roy and the stage, I would try to lie some bombs down, air dodge, fall to the edge, and/or rarely challenge Roy with Dair. If I am right ontop of Roy, definitely Screw attack or jab 1. And yes I would spot-dodge and roll every so often cuz her dodges aren't THAT bad.

 

[Solutionme]

You don't know about SHAD then (SHAD= Short Hop Air Dodge).

If ya wanna, I can play vanilla Samus. I can't do customs though cuz I don't have any of her good ones, and I don't play customs.
As a Samus main, I have no idea how Roy would cope with Samus, other than play like sonic (bait, bait, dance, and bait some more before you can close in on her.) To get past her Zair, either SHAD into her or walk underneath her. It depends on how high she jumps. I cannot speak on slow missiles. Charge shot spam? Just bait it, force her to waste it, and charge again. IF the Samus smart enough to fire CS at random charge-levels, then you just gotta jump over it or anticipate a SH>CS (though that is rare do to Samus' fall speed). You can obviously shield most of these projectiles safely since Samus's grab is slow. Just be careful not to shield against a fully charged CS, cuz that thing can break shields. What Samus would do when Roy got in finally, would try to escape his combos and re-start the match into neutral. How she would accomplish this is unknown to me. If my Samus was above Roy and the stage, I would try to lie some bombs down, air dodge, fall to the edge, and/or rarely challenge Roy with Dair. If I am right ontop of Roy, definitely Screw attack or jab 1. And yes I would spot-dodge and roll every so often cuz her dodges aren't THAT bad.

Marth does that too, what I meant to say is rolling, but i practically mix it all in together at this point because For Glory. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[FlAlex]

Marth does that too, what I meant to say is rolling, but i practically mix it all in together at this point because For Glory. Sorry about the confusion.

I've played MArth. I don't think he can jump as low as Samus can and still AD without any landing lag. Then there's the fact that Samus can go straight from AD to UpAir, which can pop opponents up for a combo.

NP about the confusion.

 

[Solutionme]

I've played MArth. I don't think he can jump as low as Samus can and still AD without any landing lag. Then there's the fact that Samus can go straight from AD to UpAir, which can pop opponents up for a combo.

NP about the confusion.

I mean it is as long as you can act in the air after the animation ends right? Characters who can't lose an approach option that existed in brawl whether or not you could still do an aerial after it. Ty for understanding btw.

 

[FlAlex]

I mean it is as long as you can act in the air after the animation ends right? Characters who can't lose an approach option that existed in brawl whether or not you could still do an aerial after it. Ty for understanding btw.

Technically, SHAD simply means to short hop and then air dodge. Whether or not the character suffers from landing-lag just determines how good a characters' SHAD is. Having a good SHAD (IMO) means the character lands RIGHT after the animation/ receives no landing lag after performing a SHAD.

NP.

 

[Flukey]

Is Pikachu Roy's worst matchup?

I think it's one of the worst, pikachu's thunderjolt spamming (which is a very common pikachu strategy) is a really nuisance, specially when roy tries to recover, if you try to recover low and get hit by that, most probably is that you're not gonna make it if another thunderjolt comes along.

At the same time up close, pikachu has little too no lag on most of his tilts, you must lure the opponent to make a mistake and punish him, after the punish keep pressure, at least that's the strategy that worked for me against some pikachus.

 

[Macchiato]

We'll start character discussion on Tuesday. K? K