Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Would there be any reason to use up tilt out of grounded side b instead of extending it into the kick? A few bayos I have played against have done this and I'm wondering whether it's good or not.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Would there be any reason to use up tilt out of grounded side b instead of extending it into the kick? A few bayos I have played against have done this and I'm wondering whether it's good or not.

It probably does a bit more damage. Other then that, side b combos into Twist without the kick, so at higher Percents were the kick won't hit this is a good idea.

 

[Rezialn]

Chicago Smash players are ******** that Bayonetta is OP. It's driving me crazy.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Chicago Smash players are ******** that Bayonetta is OP. It's driving me crazy.

Point at them and laugh
Also tell random people on the street to Git Gud

 

[Tafari]

Which frames do the invicibility frames on witch time start and end?

 

[Diogo Rivers]

oh man i'm buying the dlc tomorrow i can't wait to try her out B)))) from what i've seen i'm going to play her for a REALLY BIG WHILE

 

[Tythaeus]

oh man i'm buying the dlc tomorrow i can't wait to try her out B)))) from what i've seen i'm going to play her for a REALLY BIG WHILE

For future reference, try posting in the social thread for general discussion not pertaining to metagame discussion.

RE SideB UpTlt:

It doesn't seem worthwhile doing at the percents that the kick will connect.

I'm just theorycrafting here, but when the kick can't connect I don't think the UpTilt will even combo unless it's a fast faller. Also, are you able to react out of SideB quicker if you perform the kick?

 

[Sonicninja115]

For future reference, try posting in the social thread for general discussion not pertaining to metagame discussion.

RE SideB UpTlt:

It doesn't seem worthwhile doing at the percents that the kick will connect.

I'm just theorycrafting here, but when the kick can't connect I don't think the UpTilt will even combo unless it's a fast faller. Also, are you able to react out of SideB quicker if you perform the kick?

Somewhat. I am pretty sure Twist will beat the kick as Twist comes out frame 4, and it looks like the FAF of heel slide is the same for Twist and the kick. (Does this make sense?) Utilt comes out pretty late, frame 8+ or something. Plus, it doesn't have nearly as much range as Twist and Utilt. I will try to make a video or something on it.

 

[Ghidorah14]

SideB-kick-uptilt does 21%, but is inconsistent and only one of uptilts hitboxes lands. DI and sweetspot vs sourspot of sideB factors in, too.

SideB-uptilt does 20% but is much more consistent (I'd say almost guaranteed). Plus sideB without the kick is safer.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

so, i knew bayos wall jumps were good at helping her recover, but i didnt knew that you can recover using only the wall jumps.

i pretty much got knocked out of my specials and jump and i was falling to my dead, just as i entered the 'lense' zone i clung to the wall and in a salty attempt to get back i started wall jumping which let me back onstage in only 2 jumps. i dont think that falco was expecting that.

ive been having troube trying to replicate this as i cannot inmediatly cling out of a wall jump usually, but i did in that match. is there something i should know about how to do this?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Since you guys pretty much never have to worry about the advantage state, the neutral should be by far the most important place to develop bayonetta

 

[Sonicninja115]

Since you guys pretty much never have to worry about the advantage state, the neutral should be by far the most important place to develop bayonetta

I think that it would be best to tone down improvement of advantage, as there is so much in that area already. I definitely agree. Recovery tactics, disadvantage, approaching, neutral. All these are barely touched. To the point that there is an over saturation of combos, so no one really knows anything else. I decided to learn how to win as Bayonetta without relying on combos. After a bit, I added in combos to supplement her game, and now I don't just keel over if I miss a kill combo. Focus on the character. Not the combos. The combos can come later, learn how to play Bayonetta first.

 

[Spirst]

so, i knew bayos wall jumps were good at helping her recover, but i didnt knew that you can recover using only the wall jumps.

i pretty much got knocked out of my specials and jump and i was falling to my dead, just as i entered the 'lense' zone i clung to the wall and in a salty attempt to get back i started wall jumping which let me back onstage in only 2 jumps. i dont think that falco was expecting that.

ive been having troube trying to replicate this as i cannot inmediatly cling out of a wall jump usually, but i did in that match. is there something i should know about how to do this?

It's really simple actually. Wall cling, jump off and direct yourself back to the wall, then jump off again and go back to the wall but cling this time. Repeat. You can make it from the bottom blastzone all the time if you do it right on walled stages.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

I assume no one really knows about this, because it's not edited into the original post, but DJCWT is way better than everyone thinks. For one, it gives witch twist a massive distance boost. from my testing on battlefield doing witch twist just before I land, regular witch twist has her feet way below the top platform, but with DJCWT, her feet are way above it. It gives witch twist roughly more than 1.5x the distance, which is massive when talking about a recovery move. Not to mention, you can do this with both witch twists, essentially giving you 3 double jumps.

Not only does this make her recovery amazing, but also, if you use it right she loses practically all her gimpability, as you can do 2 DJCWTs with crazy distance, and an afterburner kick in any order. With this, she can make it back from the bottom left corner of FD, BF, Umbra Clock Tower, Duck Hunt, Dreamland and probably every other stage (in the blastzone, offscreen, right before you die) EASILY, while KEEPING HER DOUBLE JUMP(this is insane, Sheik and Rosalina can't even come CLOSE to doing this!!!). You can even do a Witch Time during your recovery and still make it back while keeping your double jump!

With this, I think it's safe to say she has the best recovery in the game(villager doesn't have hitboxes on his recovery and has very limited mixups). So basically, you should always be doing DJCWT for all of your recovery witch twists. Also, she can EASILY make it back from directly underneath FD, BF and Dreamland while keeping her double jump(no more getting pineappled!). She can also go right under FD and BF and grab the ledge on the other side easily with her double jump. Basically with this, she is completely ungimpable. Unless you get launched or spiked directly into the blastzone and are unable to act before you die, no edgeguarding will work on you, as you can easily recover from literally anywhere on the screen, as many times as you want, while keeping your double jump, since each time you get hit it will refresh both witch twists and your afterburner kick.

You should also pretty much never double jump when offstage too. Even if they stage spike you, most stage spikes don't directly kill but send you to the bottom corner where even most top tiers can't make it back, however Bayonetta can easily survive this. We should also be able to go super deep and as far from the stage as we want with edgeguards, so long as we don't burn our double jump. Also, if you ever find yourself out of witch twists and just a little below the ledge after doing something like an edgeguard or risky mixup, you can afterburner kick into the stage and hold towards the stage, which will make you bounce off the stage and go up quite high towards the ledge. She also has wall jumps, and can climb walls on flat stage sides without any recovery moves left if that wasn't enough.

Not only does this make her recovery broken, it also has massive implications for her combo game. With this she can carry the opponent way higher, making her vertical kill combos kill way earlier. Also, after the complete combo and both witch twists and an aerial, she can still doublejump after them to finish with another aerial! Sorry for being so overly hyped, but I just discovered this stuff and wanted to share it with you guys.

 

[Ijuka]

Than everyone thinks? I at least use it constantly for recovery as well as in combos, trying to incorporate it into neutral and mindgames as well. One thing in combos I really like is when I'm starting with a fair -> up B combo, doing the double jump before the up B. After that, it's very easy to kill them off the top. I also utilize this during some forward B -> second up B combos. But well, after hearing about commentators saying that Bayonetta has awful vertical recovery last night it truly makes you wonder what people in general think.

Usually I lower myself to the bottom corner into the magnifying glass, then forward B -> double jump up B and that generally grabs the ledge. What's especially good however is if the opponent is jumping at you at a bad time and you catch them with an up B, as you can safely begin comboing them even while off stage as you still have your second jump, it's pretty insane. If you play your cards right, Bayonetta can be a true offstage terror, especially after people learn how to utilize this properly. It can also help with just juggling and following up outside of combos.

I also feel like people go "wtf" when I've used 2 up Bs and afterwards double jump and punch them in the face, that shouldn't be possible after all. Still, I don't think that she has the best recovery in the game as in the end it still is quite predictable and possible to edgeguard and isn't invulnerable. I think that Sheik has the best recovery in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think that it would be best to tone down improvement of advantage, as there is so much in that area already. I definitely agree. Recovery tactics, disadvantage, approaching, neutral. All these are barely touched. To the point that there is an over saturation of combos, so no one really knows anything else. I decided to learn how to win as Bayonetta without relying on combos. After a bit, I added in combos to supplement her game, and now I don't just keel over if I miss a kill combo. Focus on the character. Not the combos. The combos can come later, learn how to play Bayonetta first.

This post almost brought me to tears of joy.

Well said.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I assume no one really knows about this, because it's not edited into the original post, but DJCWT is way better than everyone thinks. For one, it gives witch twist a massive distance boost. from my testing on battlefield doing witch twist just before I land, regular witch twist has her feet way below the top platform, but with DJCWT, her feet are way above it. It gives witch twist roughly more than 1.5x the distance, which is massive when talking about a recovery move. Not to mention, you can do this with both witch twists, essentially giving you 3 double jumps.

Not only does this make her recovery amazing, but also, if you use it right she loses practically all her gimpability, as you can do 2 DJCWTs with crazy distance, and an afterburner kick in any order. With this, she can make it back from the bottom left corner of FD, BF, Umbra Clock Tower, Duck Hunt, Dreamland and probably every other stage (in the blastzone, offscreen, right before you die) EASILY, while KEEPING HER DOUBLE JUMP(this is insane, Sheik and Rosalina can't even come CLOSE to doing this!!!). You can even do a Witch Time during your recovery and still make it back while keeping your double jump!

With this, I think it's safe to say she has the best recovery in the game(villager doesn't have hitboxes on his recovery and has very limited mixups). So basically, you should always be doing DJCWT for all of your recovery witch twists. Also, she can EASILY make it back from directly underneath FD, BF and Dreamland while keeping her double jump(no more getting pineappled!). She can also go right under FD and BF and grab the ledge on the other side easily with her double jump. Basically with this, she is completely ungimpable. Unless you get launched or spiked directly into the blastzone and are unable to act before you die, no edgeguarding will work on you, as you can easily recover from literally anywhere on the screen, as many times as you want, while keeping your double jump, since each time you get hit it will refresh both witch twists and your afterburner kick.

You should also pretty much never double jump when offstage too. Even if they stage spike you, most stage spikes don't directly kill but send you to the bottom corner where even most top tiers can't make it back, however Bayonetta can easily survive this. We should also be able to go super deep and as far from the stage as we want with edgeguards, so long as we don't burn our double jump. Also, if you ever find yourself out of witch twists and just a little below the ledge after doing something like an edgeguard or risky mixup, you can afterburner kick into the stage and hold towards the stage, which will make you bounce off the stage and go up quite high towards the ledge. She also has wall jumps, and can climb walls on flat stage sides without any recovery moves left if that wasn't enough.

Not only does this make her recovery broken, it also has massive implications for her combo game. With this she can carry the opponent way higher, making her vertical kill combos kill way earlier. Also, after the complete combo and both witch twists and an aerial, she can still doublejump after them to finish with another aerial! Sorry for being so overly hyped, but I just discovered this stuff and wanted to share it with you guys.

.......it's in the AT section... If you don't mind I might want to use some of your explanation on it. This tech is vital for Bayonetta, so it would make sense to expound upon it in the OP.

This post almost brought me to tears of joy.

Well said.

I just made a man cry... should I be happy or sad? kappa

That is in part a reason I made the metagame thread. You may notice but combos are not up for discussion in this thread. Eventually, I might add a section. But if I do, it is mainly going to be on when to use combos, and other things, not the combos themselves.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

It's really simple actually. Wall cling, jump off and direct yourself back to the wall, then jump off again and go back to the wall but cling this time. Repeat. You can make it from the bottom blastzone all the time if you do it right on walled stages.

yeah, figured it out. wall cling > cling jump > wall jump > wall cling > cling jump

 

[Squiiidzoid]

.......it's in the AT section... If you don't mind I might want to use some of your explanation on it. This tech is vital for Bayonetta, so it would make sense to expound upon it in the OP.

Sure thing, you can use it, that's why I wrote it. Also I know you already had it listed, I said that in the post, but it didn't say anything about the extra distance or utility, so I wanted to say that stuff incase it wasn't known widely. Also just to add something, the double DJCWT recovery goes much further if you have very little delay between them, because bayo starts to fall quite quickly pretty much instantly after witch twist, so it does make a big difference.

Oh and btw, me and a skype chat of bayos have been working hard to progress her meta super fast, testing and discovering stuff. Some of the stuff is powerful shield breaker combos, ledge camping, ledge camping/getup shield breakers, the best ways to deal with pikmin and luma, platform prattack/footstool jab locks, character item shield break combos, item regular combos and ones using z drops, etc. When I fully collect and complete the data I'll post it here.

Than everyone thinks? I at least use it constantly for recovery as well as in combos, trying to incorporate it into neutral and mindgames as well. One thing in combos I really like is when I'm starting with a fair -> up B combo, doing the double jump before the up B. After that, it's very easy to kill them off the top. I also utilize this during some forward B -> second up B combos. But well, after hearing about commentators saying that Bayonetta has awful vertical recovery last night it truly makes you wonder what people in general think.

Usually I lower myself to the bottom corner into the magnifying glass, then forward B -> double jump up B and that generally grabs the ledge. What's especially good however is if the opponent is jumping at you at a bad time and you catch them with an up B, as you can safely begin comboing them even while off stage as you still have your second jump, it's pretty insane. If you play your cards right, Bayonetta can be a true offstage terror, especially after people learn how to utilize this properly. It can also help with just juggling and following up outside of combos.

I also feel like people go "wtf" when I've used 2 up Bs and afterwards double jump and punch them in the face, that shouldn't be possible after all. Still, I don't think that she has the best recovery in the game as in the end it still is quite predictable and possible to edgeguard and isn't invulnerable. I think that Sheik has the best recovery in the game.

Well I thought everyone thought that from my general experience, just means the majority of people, not totally everyone necessarily. Also you said you still recover with double jump, the whole reason this tech is so crazy is because you can recover without needing to use double jump, so you can't be gimped. But yea it is an awesome technique. And also I disagree, bayo's recovery is actually a lot better than sheik's. Sheik's recovery totally sucks without a double jump, so she totally needs her double jump. Also sheik's recovery can be intercepted and gimped, and if she gets hit away or stage spiked after she uses her double jump, she's pretty much dead. And sheik has very few ways of mixing up her recovery, especially from down low.

However, bayo has tons of ways to mixup her recovery. She can do both DJCWTs and ABK in any order, she can witch time, she can airdodge, she can use one of her fast high priority aerials, and when high up she can dair or divekick to the ledge. She can also use bullet climax to shoot to cover herself from opponents edgeguarding. She also has wall jumps for mixups. Also, she has high priority active hitboxes around her on pretty much all of her recovery. Also with DJCWT she recovers back to the stage suuper fast, so they'll barely even have time to edgeguard her. And she can get hit away as many times as she wants, and still always easily make it back, but sheik cannot do this because of how badly she recovers without a double jump. Also sheik's vanish got nerfed this patch.

And the community has also gotten used to dealing with sheik's recovery, with tons of "2 frame" deadly punishes, which are untechable iirc. I'm not saying sheik's recovery is bad, but bayo's is much better, the best in the game in fact. And when bayo is at the ledge she has a large variety of ledge camping options to pressure the opponent and their shield, and if the opponent refuses to back off you can get a shield break.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sure thing, you can use it, that's why I wrote it. Also I know you already had it listed, I said that in the post, but it didn't say anything about the extra distance or utility, so I wanted to say that stuff incase it wasn't known widely. Also just to add something, the double DJCWT recovery goes much further if you have very little delay between them, because bayo starts to fall quite quickly pretty much instantly after witch twist, so it does make a big difference.

Oh and btw, me and a skype chat of bayos have been working hard to progress her meta super fast, testing and discovering stuff. Some of the stuff is powerful shield breaker combos, ledge camping, ledge camping/getup shield breakers, the best ways to deal with pikmin and luma, platform prattack/footstool jab locks, character item shield break combos, item regular combos and ones using z drops, etc. When I fully collect and complete the data I'll post it here.

Well I thought everyone thought that from my general experience, just means the majority of people, not totally everyone necessarily. Also you said you still recover with double jump, the whole reason this tech is so crazy is because you can recover without needing to use double jump, so you can't be gimped. But yea it is an awesome technique. And also I disagree, bayo's recovery is actually a lot better than sheik's. Sheik's recovery totally sucks without a double jump, so she totally needs her double jump. Also sheik's recovery can be intercepted and gimped, and if she gets hit away or stage spiked after she uses her double jump, she's pretty much dead. And sheik has very few ways of mixing up her recovery, especially from down low.

However, bayo has tons of ways to mixup her recovery. She can do both DJCWTs and ABK in any order, she can witch time, she can airdodge, she can use one of her fast high priority aerials, and when high up she can dair or divekick to the ledge. She can also use bullet climax to shoot to cover herself from opponents edgeguarding. She also has wall jumps for mixups. Also, she has high priority active hitboxes around her on pretty much all of her recovery. Also with DJCWT she recovers back to the stage suuper fast, so they'll barely even have time to edgeguard her. And she can get hit away as many times as she wants, and still always easily make it back, but sheik cannot do this because of how badly she recovers without a double jump. Also sheik's vanish got nerfed this patch.

And the community has also gotten used to dealing with sheik's recovery, with tons of "2 frame" deadly punishes, which are untechable iirc. I'm not saying sheik's recovery is bad, but bayo's is much better, the best in the game in fact. And when bayo is at the ledge she has a large variety of ledge camping options to pressure the opponent and their shield, and if the opponent refuses to back off you can get a shield break.

Skype chats are great, but they do have huge downsides. If you could post all findings or relevant posts in the metagame or other threads that would be great. Skype doesn't save chat info and makes it rather hard to find it. If you could copy/paste the stuff for everyone to see then it would be great, but without that, the info is broken into too many parts and some is undoubtably going to be lost or forgotten. Please tell me the Sbreak combos aren't Fsmash-BA? And that they are unavoidable to some extent.

 

[Ffamran]

Since I only own a 3DS and I don't have any of the DLC characters, someone else is going to have to do this for me; could anyone test this out: have Falco do a regular jab combo, so no pauses, just straight up jab combo and during that, have Bayonetta mash Witch Twist and for another test, mash Witch Time / Bat Within. Falco's jab 2 to rapid jab does not true combo and in some cases, characters with fast moves - invincibility also helps -, like frame 5 below, they can interrupt his jab 2 to rapid jab. In the cases of when he tries for jab mixups e.g. Falco only does jab 1 or jab 2 to try for a tilt or grab, anything frame 7 and below can punish him. Once again, I-frames help. Witch Twist is frame 4 and Witch Time is frame 5.

Although it's not advised to ever button mash, there are characters with fast, low committal moves who can mash like Luigi and Yoshi can get free hard punishes on Falco during his jab with Nair, Dr. Mario, Mario, Sheik, and Villager can escape with Nair, Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, Luigi, and Mario can jab back, Lucina and Marth can escape with Dolphin Slash, Little Mac can escape with Rising Uppercut, and Jigglypuff and Ryu can kill Falco with Rest and Shoryuken during his jab. All of those moves are around frame 3. There are worse case scenarios where Ganondorf can use his frame 6 Uair during his rapid jab.

Bottom line is this: if this works, Bayonetta should be able to escape his jab like anyone else can with her jump, but also add the ability to hard punish him like Ryu can with Shoryuken, but hers involves a "counter" through Witch Time. If that fails, she can just escape with Bat Within. Basically, you just removed one of Falco's tools from play leaving Falco reliant on Ftilt (frame 6) and Dtilt (frame 7) for ground close-range game and Nair (frame 9; frame 6 jump + frame 3 startup), Uair (frame 13; frame 6 jump + frame 7 startup) and Bair (frame 10; frame 6 jump + frame 4 startup), for aerial close-range game. That more or less puts Falco on par with Bayonetta's frame data while being completely out-ranged and out-sped mobility-wise by her.

Also, evidence of it working: https://youtu.be/xSfVTIwubh8?t=305.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Since I only own a 3DS and I don't have any of the DLC characters, someone else is going to have to do this for me; could anyone test this out: have Falco do a regular jab combo, so no pauses, just straight up jab combo and during that, have Bayonetta mash Witch Twist and for another test, mash Witch Time / Bat Within. Falco's jab 2 to rapid jab does not true combo and in some cases, characters with fast moves - invincibility also helps -, like frame 5 below, they can interrupt his jab 2 to rapid jab. In the cases of when he tries for jab mixups e.g. Falco only does jab 1 or jab 2 to try for a tilt or grab, anything frame 7 and below can punish him. Once again, I-frames help. Witch Twist is frame 4 and Witch Time is frame 5.

Although it's not advised to ever button mash, there are characters with fast, low committal moves who can mash like Luigi and Yoshi can get free hard punishes on Falco during his jab with Nair, Dr. Mario, Mario, Sheik, and Villager can escape with Nair, Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, Luigi, and Mario can jab back, Lucina and Marth can escape with Dolphin Slash, Little Mac can escape with Rising Uppercut, and Jigglypuff and Ryu can kill Falco with Rest and Shoryuken during his jab. All of those moves are around frame 3. There are worse case scenarios where Ganondorf can use his frame 6 Uair during his rapid jab.

Bottom line is this: if this works, Bayonetta should be able to escape his jab like anyone else can with her jump, but also add the ability to hard punish him like Ryu can with Shoryuken, but hers involves a "counter" through Witch Time. If that fails, she can just escape with Bat Within. Basically, you just removed one of Falco's tools from play leaving Falco reliant on Ftilt (frame 6) and Dtilt (frame 7) for ground close-range game and Nair (frame 9; frame 6 jump + frame 3 startup), Uair (frame 13; frame 6 jump + frame 7 startup) and Bair (frame 10; frame 6 jump + frame 4 startup), for aerial close-range game. That more or less puts Falco on par with Bayonetta's frame data while being completely out-ranged and out-sped mobility-wise by her.

Also, evidence of it working: https://youtu.be/xSfVTIwubh8?t=305.

Yesterday someone jabbed my shield with a rapid jab (Corrin) I spotdodged and was able to bat within.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

has anyone made videos or someting about playing bayonetta in the neutral? i kind of understand what im supposed to do but i cant get anything concrete. maybe someone playing for glory to showcase the neutral play or something?

also, is there a copilation of her grab follow ups? we should really start archiving her true combos and strings.

 

[Disgaea D2]

Anyone's opinion on G&W vs Bayonetta?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Anyone's opinion on G&W vs Bayonetta?

It's really stupid.

Mostly because of bucket.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Skype chats are great, but they do have huge downsides. If you could post all findings or relevant posts in the metagame or other threads that would be great. Skype doesn't save chat info and makes it rather hard to find it. If you could copy/paste the stuff for everyone to see then it would be great, but without that, the info is broken into too many parts and some is undoubtably going to be lost or forgotten. Please tell me the Sbreak combos aren't Fsmash-BA? And that they are unavoidable to some extent.

Yea don't worry, for the skype chat I have a notepad where I'm writing down anything important, and we also have a google doc. And lol don't worry, the shield breaker combos aren't anything dumb like fsmash or ending with bullet arts, they're proper, fast, mostly unavoidable, unpunishable, and very powerful shield breaker combos. Should I wait before posting the data until I have all of it? Or post things bit by bit? Also here are a some things you should put in the OP:

Bayo's crouch is amazing. She can crouch under any high hitting attacks such as aerials, and can crouch under a load of projectiles(fox and falco lasers, sheik uncharged needles, etc). She also has an amazing Fuzzy Shield. Fuzzy Shielding is a tech where you crouch and then shield a projectile or move, giving you way easier and more reliable perfect shields, because the window in which to perfect shield is much larger, because your shield extends way beyond your hurtbox(when the shield first comes out it isn't tilted in the direction you are holding) because shields come out instantly, so she goes straight from being crouched to having her shield up with no delay. The reason bayo's is so good, is because she is so low to the ground when she crouches, and her shield is massive because she's so tall.

Also I have the data for dealing with pikmin, and for the angles on the bullet arts explosions(for jab locks and prattacks, and also some combos), should I post that stuff here?

Anyone's opinion on G&W vs Bayonetta?

I think we beat him, he's light and dies early, but you need to remember that its almost never safe to do vertical kill combos on him, because he can upair or up b in like 1 frame during your combo which will make you fly offscreen combined with your up b momentum and die. So it's better just to go for damage combos or horizontal kill combos.

 

[Ffamran]

Yesterday someone jabbed my shield with a rapid jab (Corrin) I spotdodged and was able to bat within.

Followup to this, I think the transition from Fox's rapid jab to rapid jab finisher can be escaped with Bat Within. The problem is that Fox could just jab again and you start a cycle where you let Fox continually jab you. I do have a replay of this, but it's on 3DS... Anyway, assuming so, maybe you all should lab Bat Within with all rapid jabs. Considering some characters have no choice between a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab like Falco, Fox, and Sheik, this might be useful. Granted, if they read it, they could go for jab mixups like infamously, Fox. That being said, slower jabs, or jabs with noticeably slow transitions like I believe Cloud and Shulk's jab 3 transitions pretty slowly from their jab 2, it might work on them too.

 

[Mothman]

I have question, so Im testing that jump glitch that goes like: jump, witch twist, witch twist, jump, side burner, but it doesnt work when you are off stage, does she not have double jump when she goes off stage? or am I missing something? or do all characters not have that once they go off stage? because I tried walking off stage and then trying, and getting knocked off stage and then trying? (Im really confused but I feel like this is a dumb question cus theres prolly an obvious answer)

update: I tried just doing witch twist x 2, and then jump and after burner off stage and it worked in that way....so I guess you cant do one jump, 2 witch twists and then jump again if youre already off stage? is that right?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yea don't worry, for the skype chat I have a notepad where I'm writing down anything important, and we also have a google doc. And lol don't worry, the shield breaker combos aren't anything dumb like fsmash or ending with bullet arts, they're proper, fast, mostly unavoidable, unpunishable, and very powerful shield breaker combos. Should I wait before posting the data until I have all of it? Or post things bit by bit? Also here are a some things you should put in the OP:

Bayo's crouch is amazing. She can crouch under any high hitting attacks such as aerials, and can crouch under a load of projectiles(fox and falco lasers, sheik uncharged needles, etc). She also has an amazing Fuzzy Shield. Fuzzy Shielding is a tech where you crouch and then shield a projectile or move, giving you way easier and more reliable perfect shields, because the window in which to perfect shield is much larger, because your shield extends way beyond your hurtbox(when the shield first comes out it isn't tilted in the direction you are holding) because shields come out instantly, so she goes straight from being crouched to having her shield up with no delay. The reason bayo's is so good, is because she is so low to the ground when she crouches, and her shield is massive because she's so tall.

Also I have the data for dealing with pikmin, and for the angles on the bullet arts explosions(for jab locks and prattacks, and also some combos), should I post that stuff here?


I think we beat him, he's light and dies early, but you need to remember that its almost never safe to do vertical kill combos on him, because he can upair or up b in like 1 frame during your combo which will make you fly offscreen combined with your up b momentum and die. So it's better just to go for damage combos or horizontal kill combos.

That is comforting, you can never tell with Sbreak stuff.

Post your info once it is complete, or for big findings, immediately. If you guys want help labbing them post them immediately as well.

I believe the pikmin info would belong here. I might make a miscellaneous section and have stuff like, Crouch, Dealing With Pikmin, Shieldbreak Set-ups etc.

has anyone made videos or someting about playing bayonetta in the neutral? i kind of understand what im supposed to do but i cant get anything concrete. maybe someone playing for glory to showcase the neutral play or something?

also, is there a copilation of her grab follow ups? we should really start archiving her true combos and strings.

There is a section in the OP that EL made.

I believe there are some in the combo threads OP.

Followup to this, I think the transition from Fox's rapid jab to rapid jab finisher can be escaped with Bat Within. The problem is that Fox could just jab again and you start a cycle where you let Fox continually jab you. I do have a replay of this, but it's on 3DS... Anyway, assuming so, maybe you all should lab Bat Within with all rapid jabs. Considering some characters have no choice between a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab like Falco, Fox, and Sheik, this might be useful. Granted, if they read it, they could go for jab mixups like infamously, Fox. That being said, slower jabs, or jabs with noticeably slow transitions like I believe Cloud and Shulk's jab 3 transitions pretty slowly from their jab 2, it might work on them too.

Airdodge would need 3 open frames, while spot dodge only needs one. Small fact that I am adding on.

Doesn't BW send you behind the opponent?

I have question, so Im testing that jump glitch that goes like: jump, witch twist, witch twist, jump, side burner, but it doesnt work when you are off stage, does she not have double jump when she goes off stage? or am I missing something? or do all characters not have that once they go off stage? because I tried walking off stage and then trying, and getting knocked off stage and then trying? (Im really confused but I feel like this is a dumb question cus theres prolly an obvious answer)

update: I tried just doing witch twist x 2, and then jump and after burner off stage and it worked in that way....so I guess you cant do one jump, 2 witch twists and then jump again if youre already off stage? is that right?

You have to DJC the second twist. Did you already know this? I am finding it a bit hard to understand exactly what is going on...

 

[Ffamran]

Doesn't BW send you behind the opponent?

When I fought the Bayonetta player, they used Bat Within they went towards the ground as they were in the air during rapid jab... I'm guessing you can pick where you go during Bat Within?

 

[Mothman]

That is comforting, you can never tell with Sbreak stuff.

Post your info once it is complete, or for big findings, immediately. If you guys want help labbing them post them immediately as well.

I believe the pikmin info would belong here. I might make a miscellaneous section and have stuff like, Crouch, Dealing With Pikmin, Shieldbreak Set-ups etc.

There is a section in the OP that EL made.

I believe there are some in the combo threads OP.

Airdodge would need 3 open frames, while spot dodge only needs one. Small fact that I am adding on.

Doesn't BW send you behind the opponent?

You have to DJC the second twist. Did you already know this? I am finding it a bit hard to understand exactly what is going on...

sorry I think it's mostly the term double jump cancel that's confusing me >.< , so is djcwt just jump, witch twist witch twist, and then jump again? because if that's what it is then I think Im doing it right >.< (I was having trouble reading the controls attached to the main post as well because I have double tap on)

 

[Squiiidzoid]

That is comforting, you can never tell with Sbreak stuff.

Post your info once it is complete, or for big findings, immediately. If you guys want help labbing them post them immediately as well.

I believe the pikmin info would belong here. I might make a miscellaneous section and have stuff like, Crouch, Dealing With Pikmin, Shieldbreak Set-ups etc.

There is a section in the OP that EL made.

I believe there are some in the combo threads OP.

Airdodge would need 3 open frames, while spot dodge only needs one. Small fact that I am adding on.

Doesn't BW send you behind the opponent?

You have to DJC the second twist. Did you already know this? I am finding it a bit hard to understand exactly what is going on...

Btw airdodge and spotdodge bat within are both frame 1 and invincible on I think frame 3, and rolls are I think bat within on frames 3-5. Also here's some data and stuff:

Jumping offstage and holding upair and nair for the bullet arts extension is amazing for gimping recoveries.
Also, when the opponent is descending onstage after being launched up, you can jump up and hold upair, which turns what would be a 50/50 of airdodging or being hit for any other character, into a guaranteed hit/frametrap, because if they airdodge upair still hits them, and if they wait then upaid still hits them. Upair also has amazing range and priority, with a massive hitbox all around you. Being able to do this means that at pretty much any % you can do an upthrow > hold upair, and you can follow up with another aerial afterwards. This esentially gives her a great combo throw, and this should be used as much as possible in the neutral because of how powerful grabs are in this game. It also kills Mario on FD at 125% with no rage if you land the first hit of upair. And here are my notes for dealing with Pikmin:

Bat within makes all pikmin fall off you instantly. Bat within is triggered by latched pikmin hitting you.
Witch time can be triggered by latched pikmin hitting you, but you must be close enough to olimar for the witch time hitbox to hit him(it extends a bit beyond the purple aura) just like with other projectiles.
Shorthop hold upair is good for getting rid of most pikmin on you, but can miss some on your head.
Doing full heel slide gets rid of all pikmin on you and kills retreating ones.
Dtilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your lower half and killing retreating ones.
Uptilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your front and upper half, and killing incoming ones.
All bullet arts and all other moves are pretty much useless.
Be wary that while pikmin are on you they constantly cause hitstun, essentially giving you terrible framedata on everything you do. This can mess up combos and timings, and make you much more punishable.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Btw airdodge and spotdodge bat within are both frame 1 and invincible on I think frame 3, and rolls are I think bat within on frames 3-5. Also here's some data and stuff:

Jumping offstage and holding upair and nair for the bullet arts extension is amazing for gimping recoveries.
Also, when the opponent is descending onstage after being launched up, you can jump up and hold upair, which turns what would be a 50/50 of airdodging or being hit for any other character, into a guaranteed hit/frametrap, because if they airdodge upair still hits them, and if they wait then upaid still hits them. Upair also has amazing range and priority, with a massive hitbox all around you. Being able to do this means that at pretty much any % you can do an upthrow > hold upair, and you can follow up with another aerial afterwards. This esentially gives her a great combo throw, and this should be used as much as possible in the neutral because of how powerful grabs are in this game. And here are my notes for dealing with Pikmin:

Bat within makes all pikmin fall off you instantly. Bat within is triggered by latched pikmin hitting you.
Witch time can be triggered by latched pikmin hitting you, but you must be close enough to olimar for the witch time hitbox to hit him(it extends a bit beyond the purple aura) just like with other projectiles.
Shorthop hold upair is good for getting rid of most pikmin on you, but can miss some on your head.
Doing full heel slide gets rid of all pikmin on you and kills retreating ones.
Dtilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your lower half and killing retreating ones.
Uptilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your front and upper half, and killing incoming ones.
All bullet arts and all other moves are pretty much useless.
Be wary that while pikmin are on you they constantly cause hitstun, essentially giving you terrible framedata on everything you do. This can mess up combos and timings, and make you much more punishable.

Thereflexwonder did frame data for BW, so I believe that airdodge is frame 3. I could be wrong though.

This info is ... questionably good... This is crazy amazing. Imagine a olimar throwing his pikmin to recover, and then Bayo purposely getting hit so she can kill him with an off-stage Time! This is crazy.

sorry I think it's mostly the term double jump cancel that's confusing me >.< , so is djcwt just jump, witch twist witch twist, and then jump again? because if that's what it is then I think Im doing it right >.< (I was having trouble reading the controls attached to the main post as well because I have double tap on)

So, you Jump-Twist. At this point, you have to Jump again, but cancel the jump ASAP with another Twist. After the second Twist, you should be able to jump again. The jump should be cancelled within 10 frames probably.

When I fought the Bayonetta player, they used Bat Within they went towards the ground as they were in the air during rapid jab... I'm guessing you can pick where you go during Bat Within?

this is interesting. I will definitely need to look into BW tomorrow. This seems kinda broken at times, and useless at others. I am sure we just don't know enough yet though.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Thereflexwonder did frame data for BW, so I believe that airdodge is frame 3. I could be wrong though.

This info is ... questionably good... This is crazy amazing. Imagine a olimar throwing his pikmin to recover, and then Bayo purposely getting hit so she can kill him with an off-stage Time! This is crazy.


So, you Jump-Twist. At this point, you have to Jump again, but cancel the jump ASAP with another Twist. After the second Twist, you should be able to jump again. The jump should be cancelled within 10 frames probably.


this is interesting. I will definitely need to look into BW tomorrow. This seems kinda broken at times, and useless at others. I am sure we just don't know enough yet though.

I was just getting the framedata from kuroganehammer http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta where both spotdodge and airdodge have bat within within frames 1-4. And yea, the pikmin stuff is crazily good, not only can you just time an airdodge or spotdodge to trigger bat within and get all pikmin off you, you can also use it to trigger witch time which is kinda broken lol. And the thing with upthrow hold upair thing is crazily good too, it gives her a great combo throw which is amazing in this game, and it kills mario at 125% on FD (no rage, so in an actual match it's more like 90-100%, and even earlier for lighter characters like sheik or kirby). Also please add all this data I'm giving you to the OP(you may want to edit it go make it more compact though, so it doesn't take up too much space).

 

[Lakuto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTWy88ytUGc&feature=youtu.be&t=17
0:17 "Side-b > Uair > Up-b" is it a frame trap if the opponent airdodge?

 

[Zalezus]

Hey guys,

RosuLuma/Cloud main here wanting to pitch in on the discussion!

There's a lot of great stuff here about what to do once you get a hit confirm but someone mentioned other areas being a bit less explored. I've done some sparring with some really cool peeps here in Pittsburgh and have been thinking about some safe approaches.

Has anyone noticed some success in an applied scenario where SH Nair > ABK (before you land) is somewhat safe on shield? I've played with the distance a bit:

Close up or after Dash > SH can bait a response, and can punish a late OOS response; the first ABK hit on shield confirms a second in the opposite direction (which can then link to a Bair, Nair or WT if they DI toward you)

At mid range the Nair will barely bump shield but will trade with some aerials, clip slower/unsafe aerials, and the following ABK is safe for you if you cover your landing with Nair, Bair, second ABK or WT depending on DI.

I've just been looking for a different way in rather than the tried and already tired HSK on the ground, with or without the kick follow-up. I sympathized when Pink Fresh said most of the stuff he used in Xanadu shouldn't have worked. HSK is great especially when that first one nets 40-60% or better on a good punish, but I think it can only be relied on as a snap-judgement punish.

 

[ElMoro995]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTWy88ytUGc&feature=youtu.be&t=17
0:17 "Side-b > Uair > Up-b" is it a frame trap if the opponent airdodge?

Sideb uair isn't air-dodgeable if done fast

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Hey, so in my testing I've been labbing a bit with this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVDvfzcvXU

Not the shield break (I am thinking about a version for us, but that's not what I need help with), but the combo. Specifically, the second one. What he does, is z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, wait, z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, and repeat. When the jump eventually gets too small he goes to the side and then shorthops back, with a z-drop to footstool, z-catch, then repeats the whole combo. I don't think the hydrant is necessary at all, as he demonstrates.

Basically, I'm trying to get this to work for bayo. She seems to have the perfect jump height and fall speed to be able to do this. But I'm having trouble doing it with either her or pac-man. The best way to lab it I've found, is vs Mario in training mode, 1/4x speed, 999%, using star rods(bouncy items that behave just like pac-man's items), and then before the combo footstool Mario to get perfect positioning. These combos wouldn't only annihilate pac-man in our MU with him, but would also be possible and practically identical with any other bouncy non-explosive item(peach'es turnips and items, sheik's grenades, robin's tomes and sword, rob's gyro, any of pac-man's items, and villager's wood chip), and could be ended with a dair for the kill.

So the problem with I'm having, is with both pac-man and bayo, I get as far as z-drop, item hits, footstool, but then I either z-drop too late and Mario stands up first during invincibility frames, or I z-drop too early and he gets launched before I can fastfall and get the footstool. So it's a tight window, but it feels slightly easier for bayo. I just wanted to see if any of you guys could get it, and also to share it with you, it's sort of like wobbling, a strict input timing infinite combo, and I think it may eventually be a staple in top level play, after all, some random player in Japan was able to do it consistently so top players should be able to too. Also, I don't think it requires a shield break to start, shorthop z-drops really aren't hard to land in the neutral or as a punish, and are extremely safe. Also if I find some good shield breaker combos with items they're gonna be way too scared to shield them.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was just getting the framedata from kuroganehammer http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta where both spotdodge and airdodge have bat within within frames 1-4. And yea, the pikmin stuff is crazily good, not only can you just time an airdodge or spotdodge to trigger bat within and get all pikmin off you, you can also use it to trigger witch time which is kinda broken lol. And the thing with upthrow hold upair thing is crazily good too, it gives her a great combo throw which is amazing in this game, and it kills mario at 125% on FD (no rage, so in an actual match it's more like 90-100%, and even earlier for lighter characters like sheik or kirby). Also please add all this data I'm giving you to the OP(you may want to edit it go make it more compact though, so it doesn't take up too much space).

Does the weak hitbox kill then? I know it is a frame tight true combo, so does the weak hit kill or is it just a consolation prize?

I created a spoiler at the bottom for all useful posts. I have three of yours as of now.

Hey guys,

RosuLuma/Cloud main here wanting to pitch in on the discussion!

There's a lot of great stuff here about what to do once you get a hit confirm but someone mentioned other areas being a bit less explored. I've done some sparring with some really cool peeps here in Pittsburgh and have been thinking about some safe approaches.

Has anyone noticed some success in an applied scenario where SH Nair > ABK (before you land) is somewhat safe on shield? I've played with the distance a bit:

Close up or after Dash > SH can bait a response, and can punish a late OOS response; the first ABK hit on shield confirms a second in the opposite direction (which can then link to a Bair, Nair or WT if they DI toward you)

At mid range the Nair will barely bump shield but will trade with some aerials, clip slower/unsafe aerials, and the following ABK is safe for you if you cover your landing with Nair, Bair, second ABK or WT depending on DI.

I've just been looking for a different way in rather than the tried and already tired HSK on the ground, with or without the kick follow-up. I sympathized when Pink Fresh said most of the stuff he used in Xanadu shouldn't have worked. HSK is great especially when that first one nets 40-60% or better on a good punish, but I think it can only be relied on as a snap-judgement punish.

Nair is a great combo move BTW. It brings the height of the combos up, and starts with ABK.

Nair is +2/+3 on shield so using it into ABK without landing should by fine, it might even true combo. And the air would keep the opponents in shield, and then you could cross-up as necessary. Even a dABK for a possible shieldpoke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTWy88ytUGc&feature=youtu.be&t=17
0:17 "Side-b > Uair > Up-b" is it a frame trap if the opponent airdodge?

This is a good frame trap. Did you post it in the Combo thread? It would be great there and thanks for sharing it here!

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Does the weak hitbox kill then? I know it is a frame tight true combo, so does the weak hit kill or is it just a consolation prize?

I created a spoiler at the bottom for all useful posts. I have three of yours as of now.


Nair is a great combo move BTW. It brings the height of the combos up, and starts with ABK.

Nair is +2/+3 on shield so using it into ABK without landing should by fine, it might even true combo. And the air would keep the opponents in shield, and then you could cross-up as necessary. Even a dABK for a possible shieldpoke.


This is a good frame trap. Did you post it in the Combo thread? It would be great there and thanks for sharing it here!

The strong hitbox kills, but the weak hitbox still does good damage, and knocks them up and away a short distance, letting you pretty much repeatedly combo upairs again and again until they get knocked offstage, and then you're in the perfect spot for an edgeguard. And when the strong hit doesn't kill it also combos into more upairs, as it hits them mostly straight up. And when they're low-ish to the ground and try to airdodge through you, you can easily fastfall and punish with a regrab or an upsmash. And if they doublejump or use a special to get away, you can easily folllow it and punish, and they just put themself in an even worse spot. And I tested even on lvl 9 marios with their broken ability to frame perfectly airdodge everything they can't escape this lol. So basically whatever hits is great for you.