Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[CyberZixx]

thanks, i'll certainly give all these stages a serious look and see what i like. it helps because all the stages listed are my favorites anyway. I don't like playing on FD at all. SV and SH i'm whatever about and i don't mind lylat so people will be seeing that haha

 

[Patriarachnid]

Been watching a lot of Pink Fresh tournament sets lately, and something interesting I've noticed is how sparingly he uses Witch Twist. Almost never uses it out of shield, and only sometimes uses it as a combo tool. Mostly just uses chains of her normals, with specials used a icing on the cake. Seeing as he's probably the most notable Bayo on the scene atm, perhaps there's something we can learn from this.

 

[CyberZixx]

I like that combo approach because its much less succiple to SDI. like with use of WT you can get more, but it relys on the opponents having poor DI. He was also getting a lot from throws which i found impressive.

 

[Flamegeyser]

So random thought, a lot of discussion and metagame recently has been about new combos and punishes, but have you ever realized the sheer number of frame traps we have? We can do things like airdodged utilt->dtilt for guaranteed combos, bair airdodges into uair. Hell, uair and nair BA are frametraps in themselves (although it's really more like they just have a lingering hitbox) but they're still near impossible to dodge.

 

[CyberZixx]

i'm a little confused on the use of frame trap there. i'm familar with the street fighter version of the term which is not really a thing in smash. I really like the uptilt/dtilt set up if they air dodge the uptilt too. works low percent off upthrow and heel slide. i never considered using bair in the same way.

I don't like using upai/nair in that way because the late hits don't give much reward, but its a good option in a pinch.

 

[Flamegeyser]

i'm a little confused on the use of frame trap there. i'm familar with the street fighter version of the term which is not really a thing in smash. I really like the uptilt/dtilt set up if they air dodge the uptilt too. works low percent off upthrow and heel slide. i never considered using bair in the same way.

I don't like using upai/nair in that way because the late hits don't give much reward, but its a good option in a pinch.

In the street fighter sense, bayo doesn't have a whole lot, especially since she's somewhat slow in general. However, I was referring to airdodge traps, which we have no shortage of, yes.

 

[Zalezus]

Been watching a lot of Pink Fresh tournament sets lately, and something interesting I've noticed is how sparingly he uses Witch Twist. Almost never uses it out of shield, and only sometimes uses it as a combo tool. Mostly just uses chains of her normals, with specials used a icing on the cake. Seeing as he's probably the most notable Bayo on the scene atm, perhaps there's something we can learn from this.

Light use of Twist conditions the opponent's DI and escape options toward not getting hit by the normals. Makes the occasional Twist much more impactful and very difficult to react to. It's good, but too much gives too many opportunities to "practice" and ends up ruining the moments that might really matter.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

 

[Waluigi is too big]

Saj's really cool edge gaurd at CEO is making me wonder...

What do you guys like to use with edge guarding?

How do you handle your oppents recovering high and low?


Edit: the edge gaurd I was talking about
https://clips.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/AdventurousDotterelArgieB8

 

[Flamegeyser]

Saj's really cool edge gaurd at CEO is making me wonder...

What do you guys like to use with edge guarding?

How do you handle your oppents recovering high and low?


Edit: the edge gaurd I was talking about
https://clips.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/AdventurousDotterelArgieB8

Our edgeguarding is pretty top tier, so I go for it as often as I can. Going low, I go for BA nair, since I can hold it, it's got a good hitbox, and I can go super deep. If they airdodge, they'd better be ready for WTw. Going high is actually much the same. Very few characters can contest the disjoint and lingering hitbox of BA nair, and if they try and airdodge, they get hit again, which makes them go low. Only time I go for dsmash is when they double grab. I've also been going for more trumps, since bair kills stupid early off of one (about 8% later than ZSS's). On stages with vertical walls, something few expect is a pivot sh dair to cover the wall with the heel spikebox, but the times to use that are few and far between. It's also come to my attention that fast falling the BA nair is not that great all the time, since they can airdodge that easily. A more practical option is regular falling with it, since even tho Bayo falls fast, you stay with them long enough to beat out the airdodge, and if they don't have a jump and don't have god tier recovery, they're dead.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

We have very good edgeguarding tools for any situation. Here's a list of moves to use while edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding:
Bayonetta's off-stage and recovery game is one of the strongest in the game. Her aerials are great at keeping your opponents away from the ledge, and she has one of the best recoveries in the game. You can get an opponent off-stage with an FThrow or BThrow, as well as a well-placed Smash attack. Once the opponent is off-stage, don't let the pressure up. You want to make your opponent's life as difficult as possible while recovering.

Spoiler: Edgeguarding

Edgeguarding High:
Back Air: This move takes people by surprise a lot. It's best used when the opponent is just trying to drift back on stage. A RAR Bair is decently fast, and has a lot of kill potential. You can also run the same direction they are falling, then jump backwards and Bair. This move is extremely potent when edgeguarding, so always keep it in mind.

Bullet Climax: A charged BC knocks the opponent a good distance away, and can even snipe an opponent recovering high at high enough percents. You can keep firing it after the charged shots have disappeared to create a wall that the opponent is forced to air dodge through, which leaves them open to being gimped down below.

Edgeguarding Sideways:
Down Smash: DSmash is primarily useful for interrupting telegraphed horizontal recoveries, such as Ike's or Ganondorf's Side B. This move is extremely good at getting low to mid percent gimps, as it always spikes-it has no sourspot! This is the move that your opponent should fear when off-stage. If they aren't using a move, make sure to wait for their inevitable air dodge of panic before releasing it.

Neutral Air: Nair is good for knocking opponents away from the ledge. Nair BA is especially good as it lasts for basically as long as you want. It's also good for interrupting quick horizontal recoveries, such as Fox's Side B. It's often your best option to edgeguard sideways.

Bullet Climax: A charged BC knocks the opponent a good distance away, and can even snipe an opponent recovering high at high enough percents. You can keep firing it after the charged shots have disappeared to create a wall that the opponent is forced to air dodge through, which leaves them open to being gimped down below.

Edgeguarding Low:
Down Smash: This should only really be used on opponents hanging on the ledge without any invincibility frames, as it nets an easy spike. It can also be used to interrupt an opponent's vertical or horizontal recovery, if it doesn't sweetspot the ledge. Other than that, it doesn't have much use, as the move is still mostly above stage.

Neutral Air: Down below the stage is where Nair really shines. It knocks the opponent at a very difficult angle to recover from, especially if they've burned their double jump. In addition, BA extends the hotbox of the move as long as necessary, while keeping the knickknack roughly the same. It's also good at interrupting recoveries with no hitboxes, such as Pit's or Rosalina's Up B. It's generally best not to FF, since that makes it easier to airdodge through. Nair is definitely one of your most useful moves for edgeguarding low.

Down Air: Dair is great at interrupting all sorts of recoveries, even those with hitboxes. Note that the move only spikes at her heel, so make sure to hit with that. The best way to recover after a Dair is with WT. It's often best to just rapidly press Up + B, even while the Dair is active (this is known as buffering). Finally, make sure to start the Dair above the stage. If you start it too low, you will go too far down and lose a stock before you can WT.

Though not always the best option, Witch Twist launches the opponent at an awkward angle to recover from, especially if they're below the ledge. Best used if they airdodge a Nair and you're below them. Also helps you recover!

Ledge trump Bair is a good option as well, though it may take practice to consistently hit.

Hope this helped!

 

[Zalezus]

Saj's really cool edge gaurd at CEO is making me wonder...

What do you guys like to use with edge guarding?

How do you handle your oppents recovering high and low?


Edit: the edge gaurd I was talking about
https://clips.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/AdventurousDotterelArgieB8

I BA nair like it's going out of style, the following WTw is so nice when it stuffs a double jump. Really exciting to see that as the set winner :3

I also get pretty fancy with my edge guards, opting to ABK toward the stage high to b-reversed charged or uncharged bullets.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Hey guys! I've created analyses for all tournament legal stages (for Wii U). I'd like to know if you guys agree or disagree with this information.

Spoiler: Stage Analyses

Stages:

Battlefield:

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Notes:
+ Can SH aerials through lower platforms, as well as UTIlt through (second hit)
+ Platforms can extend combos
+ Good movement through and around platforms
+ Easier to avoid projectiles
+ Large blastzones
- Grounded moves less effective

Analysis: Good
Easily one of the better stages for Bayonetta. The shorter platforms are just the right height to SH an aerial (such as Nair or Bair), hit an opponent, and not land on the platform. The second hit of UTilt also reaches opponents atop the smaller platforms. In addition, the platforms can extend combos through tech chases, as well as preserving your DJ. The platforms allow for some very useful movement options, as you can WT below a platform, and land on top of it, instead of falling where your opponent is. Finally, the platforms provide a means to evade projectiles, and even to close in on the enemy. This is great against characters such as Mega Man and Toon Link, who have great zoning games.

BF also has decently big blast zones, which means you can survive longer. In addition, you can wall-jump off the side of the stage for extra vertical height. However, the same applies to the opponent, so be prepared to edge guard after they are sent flying off-stage.

The only bad thing about BF is that the platforms, combined with how much time the opponent should be in the air, make your grounded moves a bit less effective. In particular, DTilt and HSK see noticeably less usage.

Generally, you want to keep the opponent on or above the platforms. You can get them up there with UThrow or a combo, and pressure then with aerials, UTilt, and WT. If they are conditioned to airdodge, you can bait it with an empty hop, and punish hard with an aerial or WT.

Final Destination:

​

Notes:
+ Can utilize grounded moves well
+ Decently large blastzones
- No platforms
- Harder to deal with projectiles

Analysis: Decent
FD is a decent stage, but usually Bayonetta has better options. The large, flat space allows Bayonetta to use her important ground attacks to good effect. DTilt and HSK are great options, as the opponent no longer has platforms to escape to. The large blastzones also help Bayonetta to stay alive longer.

Unfortunately, the lack of platforms makes characters with projectiles much harder to deal with, especially since dABK isn't of much help now. Bayonetta's crouch is quite low, and can duck under several notable projectiles, such as Falco's lasers and Toon Link's fully charged arrow. However, this isn't nearly as useful as a platform is.

The absence of platforms also hinder's Bayonetta's ability to pressure an aerial opponent. While you still have UTilt and Uair, it is much easier for the opponent to land back on stage. Your movement options are also reduced, and moves such as WT become more unsafe to use OoS.

Omega Stages:

​

Notes:
+ Can utilize grounded moves well
+ Decently large blastzones
+ Possibility of walls
- No platforms
- Harder to deal with projectiles

Analysis: Pretty Good
Omega stages are quite similar to FD, with there only being one major difference: the possibility of walls. Picking an Omega stage that has walls greatly benefits Bayonetta's off-stage and recovery game. This lets you go deeper during edgeguards and removes the fear of not reaching the ledge.

Apart from that, it has the same benefits and drawbacks of FD. If you do choose to do an Omega stage, make sure it has walls!

Omega Stages with Walls:
Here is a list of all Omega stages that have walls that Bayonetta can wall jump and wall cling on.

• 
  
  • Wooly World
  • Yoshi's Island
  • Onett
  • Gamer
  • Garden of Hope
  • Wii Fit Studio
  • Duck Hunt
  • Wrecking Crew
  • Windy Hill Zone
  • Wily's Castle
  • Luigi's Mansion
  • Jungle Hijinxs
  • Kalos Pokemon League
  • Boxing Ring
  • [DLC] Hyrule Castle 64

Smashville:

​

Notes:
+ Large platform
+ Mix of ground and air attack usefulness
- Platform is moving
- No wall jump

Analysis: Decent
SV is sort of in between FD and BF in terms of helpfulness. What's good about SV is that is has a very large platform, which you can easily apply pressure to. It also provides a nice blend between grounded moves and aerial moves, as both can play a role in the match.

The silver lining is that the platform moves, which makes it much more difficult to utilize as effectively. Since it extends beyond the stage, it is a great recovery tool for opponents, especially when recovering high. It also doesn't help much against heavy zoners, as it is generally too far away from you or the opponent to make a difference. While wall jumping is possible, there is a much smaller area to be touching to execute it when compared to stages like FD.

Town & City

​

Notes:
+ Platforms
+ Low ceiling
- Platforms are high

Analysis: Pretty Good
Similar to BF, T&C has multiple platforms that Bayonetta can use to her advantage. The low ceiling also allows Bayonetta to kill earlier off the top with moves such as Uair. The downside to this is that the platforms are placed decently high, so that moves like UTilt won't hit an opponent on the platform, leaving Uair and WT as your best options. This also means that it is quite easy for Bayonetta to die, as the high platforms combined with the low ceiling make it very dangerous for her to be there for long.

The gameplan on this stage is similar to that on BF; keep the opponent in the air. UAir combos nicely into all sorts of moves at low-mid percents, and only adds to its usefulness on this stage. T&C is overall a pretty good pick, especially against lighter characters.

Dreamland:

​

Notes: Good
+ Can SH aerials through lower platforms
+ Platforms can extend combos
+ Good movement through and around platforms
+ Easier to avoid projectiles
+ Large blastzones
- Windbox
- Grounded moves less effective

Analysis:
DL is quite similar to BF. The platform layout is the same, and the blastzones are similar. The platforms are slightly higher than those on Battlefield, which makes it easier to kill off the top. Unfortunately, UTilt doesn't reach an opponent standing on the lower platform. You can still SH aerials through the lower platforms, and they still help with combos and movement.

Just like BF, the presence of platforms makes your grounded moves less effective. In addition, Whispy Woods will occasionally blow wind at you, which can mess up your recovery if you aren't careful. However, you can use this to your advantage by punishing opponents who are pushed away from the ledge with, say, a DSmash.

Duck Hunt:

​

Notes:
+ Walls
+ Platforms
- Large stage
- Awkwardly spaced platforms

Analysis: Meh
As a CP stage, DH isn't generally a top pick. It does have its uses, however. It is one of the longest competitive stages, which makes surviving easier. However, this makes it difficult to apply pressure to the opponent, since they can just run away. It even has walls, which Bayonetta is able to utilize her wall cling on. The platforms, especially the shrub, are good for avoiding projectiles. Unfortunately, they can't really assist in combos, as a result of the awkward placement of the platforms.

Try not to end up on the tree, as you don't really have much to punish an opponent attacking from above. This stage is especially good for zoning characters due to its length, which can make approaching very difficult. You can afford to be a bit more ambitious while edgeguarding, as you can easily ABK back to the wall and wall cling. There are generally better CP stages for you, but DH isn't bad.

Lylat Cruise:

​

Notes:
+ Good platform layout
+ Tilting stage
+ Good edgeguarding
- Die earlier

Analysis: Good
As far as CP stages go, LC is one of the best. The platforms are nicely laid out, so SH aerials and UTilt will hit an opponent atop them. None of the platforms are too high either, which makes it harder for an opponent to escape platform pressure. The tilting stage, while generally harmful to other characters, can actually benefit Bayonetta. Her amazing recovery makes getting to the ledge pretty easy, even if the stage is tilting. It also makes BC more useful, as it either shoots parallel to the ground or right through a platform, which makes hitting an opponent with it much easier. LC is quite good for edgeguarding as well, as the tilting stage makes it even more difficult for an opponent to make it back to the stage.

The only notable downside to LC is that the blast zones are on the small side. This causes Bayonetta to die earlier, which is never a good thing. Despite that, LC is a great CP stage overall and should generally be your first CP choice.

Castle Siege:

​

Notes:
+ Platforms (stages 1 and 2)
+ Wall (stage 1)
- Walk-offs (stage 2 and transitions)

Analysis: Meh
There isn't really a particular reason for you to pick this stage as a CP stage, unless the opponent fares worse on it than us. I'll break this up into three sections, as each transformation provides different dynamics to the match.

Transformation 1: Good
Overall the best stage for Bayonetta. It has two platforms of similar sizes, which help Bayonetta quite a bit. The wall on the side also helps when off-stage. If this was the whole stage, then it would be pretty good. Unfortunately, it's not.

Transformation 2: Meh
Stage 2 is radically different from the other two transformations, for several reasons. It has a lot of platforms to maneuver around, but the ones being held up by the statues will go away if they are broken. The statues themselves provide a nice shield against projectiles, so try not to break then too quickly. It also has a walk-off, in addition to very small blastzones. Neither benefit Bayonetta in any way, except that she can kill opponents faster.

Transformation 3: Decent
Transformation 3 is basically FD with a lava background. The only notably interesting thing about this transformation is that lava eruptions will periodically strike the end of the stage, tilting it. However, it doesn't have the same impact as it does on LC, mainly because it lasts for so short of a time.

Delfino Plaza:

​

Notes:
+ Low Ceiling
+ Platforms (usually)
- Transformations
- Walk-offs

Analysis: Meh
Nothing too helpful for Bayonetta is in this stage, except for a low ceiling (some of the time). DP is similar to CS, except with a central "area" (for lack of a better word) that it returns to after every transformation. The platform layout changes each time you return, but SH aerials are still good to use. Uir kills quite early here, so combos such as DTilt > Uair are great at high percents for getting the kill. The transformations themselves generally don't contain many helpful platforms, and some are walk-offs. They aren't very helpful overall, but at least they don't last a long time.

The best place to take a stock is when on the main "area", as the low ceiling benefits Bayonetta greatly. When on one of the many transformations, rack up as much damage as possible so that you can hopefully land a kill on the main "area". BA are a good way to put pressure on the opponent to approach, though the terrain may get in the way sometimes.

Note that this information does not include who to take and who not to take on each stage, so feedback on that is much appreciated. This information came from my Bayonetta guide, which you can check out here, if you'd like.

If I were to make a list of her top 4 best stages, then it would probably be something like this:

- Battlefield/Dreamland
- Lylat Cruise
- Town and City
- Omega stages with walls

I strongly believe that Bayonetta benefits more from having platforms than not having platforms. However, having a wall to wall jump and wall cling on is very beneficial.

So after a couple brackets I think I came to a conclusion (Key Words: I think).

Battlefield, Dreamland, and Lylat are really her best stages. It adds a few more options than as if you were on Omega or Smashville. BUT. She is one of those characters where she can fit with any stage (Except Duck Hunt since it has a large size which doesn't fit Bayonetta well) I tested if it was a better idea to pick a stage that was bad against my opponent, and I did MUCH better than my other placings.

I agree with this. I definitely think that while there are stages that Bayonetta prefers, she can do pretty well on all stages, and doesn't really have any stages that shut her down. If you want to ban a stage, I would ban one where your opponent has more of an advantage than you do.

Hope this helps!

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

They've finally noticed this guy loooool

 

[Ghidorah14]

Hey, remember when we had that conversation about bullet climax and how it didnt really go anywhere? I feel like we should revisit it now that the local party pooper is seemingly done with smash.

I think this is our most slept on move, despite being one of the better projectiles in the game. Just say that out loud; "bayonetta has a projectile." A lot of people just straight-up forget about it. I think we should try camping out certain characters with it, and see what comes of it. I know that it's made the ROB matchup that much more do-able for me.

Here's a match against a DK.

 

[Fenny]

Hey, remember when we had that conversation about bullet climax and how it didnt really go anywhere? I feel like we should revisit it now that the local party pooper is seemingly done with smash.

I think this is our most slept on move, despite being one of the better projectiles in the game. Just say that out loud; "bayonetta has a projectile." A lot of people just straight-up forget about it. I think we should try camping out certain characters with it, and see what comes of it. I know that it's made the ROB matchup that much more do-able for me.

Here's a match against a DK.

BC is the reason why Corrin is a winning MU for her imo. Shuts down his neutral B, punishes him for using his Dragon Lunge instapin because he's propped up in the air, and its obvious gimping potential.

 

[Fenny]

Okay I've decided to play way more bayo in bracket from now on. My bayo did better than my sheik in friendlies vs a few japanese players

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) August 21, 2016

:eyes:

 

[Flamegeyser]

Mr. R's bayo was kind of trash lol.

We have very good edgeguarding tools for any situation. Here's a list of moves to use while edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding:
Bayonetta's off-stage and recovery game is one of the strongest in the game. Her aerials are great at keeping your opponents away from the ledge, and she has one of the best recoveries in the game. You can get an opponent off-stage with an FThrow or BThrow, as well as a well-placed Smash attack. Once the opponent is off-stage, don't let the pressure up. You want to make your opponent's life as difficult as possible while recovering.

Spoiler: Edgeguarding

Edgeguarding High:
Back Air: This move takes people by surprise a lot. It's best used when the opponent is just trying to drift back on stage. A RAR Bair is decently fast, and has a lot of kill potential. You can also run the same direction they are falling, then jump backwards and Bair. This move is extremely potent when edgeguarding, so always keep it in mind.

Bullet Climax: A charged BC knocks the opponent a good distance away, and can even snipe an opponent recovering high at high enough percents. You can keep firing it after the charged shots have disappeared to create a wall that the opponent is forced to air dodge through, which leaves them open to being gimped down below.

Edgeguarding Sideways:
Down Smash: DSmash is primarily useful for interrupting telegraphed horizontal recoveries, such as Ike's or Ganondorf's Side B. This move is extremely good at getting low to mid percent gimps, as it always spikes-it has no sourspot! This is the move that your opponent should fear when off-stage. If they aren't using a move, make sure to wait for their inevitable air dodge of panic before releasing it.

Neutral Air: Nair is good for knocking opponents away from the ledge. Nair BA is especially good as it lasts for basically as long as you want. It's also good for interrupting quick horizontal recoveries, such as Fox's Side B. It's often your best option to edgeguard sideways.

Bullet Climax: A charged BC knocks the opponent a good distance away, and can even snipe an opponent recovering high at high enough percents. You can keep firing it after the charged shots have disappeared to create a wall that the opponent is forced to air dodge through, which leaves them open to being gimped down below.

Edgeguarding Low:
Down Smash: This should only really be used on opponents hanging on the ledge without any invincibility frames, as it nets an easy spike. It can also be used to interrupt an opponent's vertical or horizontal recovery, if it doesn't sweetspot the ledge. Other than that, it doesn't have much use, as the move is still mostly above stage.

Neutral Air: Down below the stage is where Nair really shines. It knocks the opponent at a very difficult angle to recover from, especially if they've burned their double jump. In addition, BA extends the hotbox of the move as long as necessary, while keeping the knickknack roughly the same. It's also good at interrupting recoveries with no hitboxes, such as Pit's or Rosalina's Up B. It's generally best not to FF, since that makes it easier to airdodge through. Nair is definitely one of your most useful moves for edgeguarding low.

Down Air: Dair is great at interrupting all sorts of recoveries, even those with hitboxes. Note that the move only spikes at her heel, so make sure to hit with that. The best way to recover after a Dair is with WT. It's often best to just rapidly press Up + B, even while the Dair is active (this is known as buffering). Finally, make sure to start the Dair above the stage. If you start it too low, you will go too far down and lose a stock before you can WT.

Though not always the best option, Witch Twist launches the opponent at an awkward angle to recover from, especially if they're below the ledge. Best used if they airdodge a Nair and you're below them. Also helps you recover!

Ledge trump Bair is a good option as well, though it may take practice to consistently hit.

Hope this helped!

Witch Twist is actually one of the better options, as most characters have inferior options with dealing from below edgeguards, it's disjoint and high priority allow it to challenge more moves, such as Marcina's up b, and it true combos into both fair and nair to kill at ridiculously low%s off the side even with SDI.

 

[Zult]

Is there any place where I can find post Bayo combos to try out? Just got back into the scene after a 4 month break (summer vacation)

 

[Flamegeyser]

Is there any place where I can find post Bayo combos to try out? Just got back into the scene after a 4 month break (summer vacation)

The bayo discord has a spreadsheet that lists a few of em, and the rest can either be figured out by asking questions on the same place, watching top players, and labbing yourself.

 

[Fenny]

Salem was goddamn SICKENING at Collision last night.

He scatters SDI like dropped paperwork with his mix-ups.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Salem was goddamn SICKENING at Collision last night.

He scatters SDI like dropped paperwork with his mix-ups.

He's the most patient bayo I've ever seen, which is probably closer to how we should be played. He wasn't quite as powerful or consistent on the conversions as Pink Fresh, or even as good in the neutral as Saj, but his staggering willpower was able to take the night.

 

[Fenny]

He wasn't quite as powerful or consistent on the conversions as Pink Fresh

I dunno, when he did get in he was making it look like SDI was irrelevant half the time.

 

[Lakuto]

"I still have 25% of Bayo that I haven't showed yet" - Salem
I still don't know how half of the things Salem did worked. I might actually study those matches. Shout out to people dying even with SDI. Salem really got something he has yet to share about it, we'll figure it out.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I dunno, when he did get in he was making it look like SDI was irrelevant half the time.

It felt like inconsistency on ZeRo's part to be honest, and even still he rarely got kill combos (at least compared to as many times as he went for it).

 

[Fenny]

It felt like inconsistency on ZeRo's part to be honest, and even still he rarely got kill combos (at least compared to as many times as he went for it).

I was more talking in general. ZeRo was doing a (relatively) good job getting out of things. Then you look at Tweek who Salem went out of his way to mix up in every way possible and he just couldn't handle.

 

[ElMoro995]

I think ZeRo could have done better in order to escape the combos: he DI'd upwards every single time from WTw1, then Salem proceeded to do 2nd jump>abk to catch him. I remember seeing Mr.R the first days of Bayonetta, he did mixup his DI after the first WTw1 and was harder to catch even with no SDI

 

[Y2Kay]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...ead-session-5-ness-bayonetta-9-5-9-12.438657/
Come discuss~
◥θ┴θ◤

 

[blackghost]

there is another thing i wanted us to look at and thats recording what situation leads to and where witch times are most frequent.
i was thinking that we divide the senarios into basically this: bayo landing, neutral, oppoent landing, offstage,
as for the where i was thinking just on which stages and which platforms. I really beleive that we have looked at all the consequences of witch time and optimizing it but we havent looked at where in tournament it is actually occurring. I believe the results of such data could help a lot.

 

[MagicSchlong]

Besides Pink Fresh and Salem is there any other Bayonetta worth watching? 9B not a pure Bayo main anymore, Ive heard of ikep, Saj, and Captain Jack but not sure how they compare in level of Bayo. A few days ago Leo was playing Bayo so itd be interesting to see how he takes her and had anyone watched the Bayonetta Wonf?

 

[Fenny]

Besides Pink Fresh and Salem is there any other Bayonetta worth watching? 9B not a pure Bayo main anymore, Ive heard of ikep, Saj, and Captain Jack but not sure how they compare in level of Bayo. A few days ago Leo was playing Bayo so itd be interesting to see how he takes her and had anyone watched the Bayonetta Wonf?

9B basically is at this point - M2 wasn't working for him at all.

ikep's the best Bayo in Japan currently. Saj and Salem are probably the ones to watch when it comes to playing Bayo's neutral, while Pink Fresh is basically the king of conversions. Captain Zack's an all-rounder imo. No clue about Wonf or Leo, but Wonf's beaten Leo's Cloud with Bayo so there's that.

 

[MagicSchlong]

9B basically is at this point - M2 wasn't working for him at all.

ikep's the best Bayo in Japan currently. Saj and Salem are probably the ones to watch when it comes to playing Bayo's neutral, while Pink Fresh is basically the king of conversions. Captain Zack's an all-rounder imo. No clue about Wonf or Leo, but Wonf's beaten Leo's Cloud with Bayo so there's that.

Ok thank u for response. I think Mexican players not watched much other than Leo. Im try watch Wonf and Ill check out Saj and CapZack too.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Oh yeah, CaptainZack is great. That ******'s beat M2K, and he does insane things that shouldn't work and makes them. Defo worth a watch. (he's also the best bayo on the bayo discord).

 

[MagicSchlong]

Im have to check out discord soon, I joined but havent looked around.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Im have to check out discord soon, I joined but havent looked around.

Knock yourself out, far as I know the only people developing the meta are us and top players.

 

[MagicSchlong]

Knock yourself out, far as I know the only people developing the meta are us and top players.

Im not to surprised. Social groups are more active most time.

 

[Fenny]

Zack is secretly godlike if he's capable of conversions like these

 

[Flamegeyser]

Zack is secretly godlike if he's capable of conversions like these

I was more impressed by the reads (and the Witch Time stuff).

 

[OllieWG♪]

I'm impressed by Zack in general, I think he's a great player and a great dude.

 

[Zult]

Does this work on anyone besides Fox? https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrOOzXnOOxMr6W2k2gk5mR4

 

[pikazz]

Does this work on anyone besides Fox? https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrOOzXnOOxMr6W2k2gk5mR4

thats not a true combo. he would survive better if he DI away from Bayo and down but fox DIed to the stage, but it looks like it works best on fox