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Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

Zult

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Found an 0-death/combo for damage that works on floaties and most other characters. Finally

Edit: Already working lol. (There's only one part of this combo they can air dodge. If they miss that window then everything else is true)
 
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ElMoro995

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Found an 0-death/combo for damage that works on floaties and most other characters. Finally

Edit: Already working lol. (There's only one part of this combo they can air dodge. If they miss that window then everything else is true)
Can you write it here?
 

Zult

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Last edited:

ParanoidDrone

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https://www.twitch.tv/houstongameguys/v/61493155?t=01h52m31s

Side b > quick jump to up b (the jump is needed for the combo to kill I think, still need to test it more) > jump to fair 1 > side b > dive kick > fair 1 > up b > fair (if needed, they're usually dead before this)

The only time they can air dodge is between the side b and dive kick. If they miss that window then they're most likely dead
This is pretty similar to a combo I devised. The initial hits are the only real difference. Managed to pull it off online once too.

I think the divekick is the weak link, it's not a true combo at low %.
 

Otterz

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https://www.twitch.tv/houstongameguys/v/61493155?t=01h52m31s

Side b > quick jump to up b (the jump is needed for the combo to kill I think, still need to test it more) > jump to fair 1 > side b > dive kick > fair 1 > up b > fair (if needed, they're usually dead before this)

The only time they can air dodge is between the side b and dive kick. If they miss that window then they're most likely dead

edit: https://youtu.be/lXi9gTVs53s
Cool combo, but unfortunately a lot of people just spam air dodge and by a result never miss that window. Its worth going for though as I don't think many characters can get down and punish our lag after a whiffed dABK fast enough.

Also I'm pretty sure DI-ing Down and Away will get them out of the Fair 1 follow ups.
 
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Sonicninja115

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Cool combo, but unfortunately a lot of people just spam air dodge and by a result never miss that window. Its worth going for though as I don't think many characters can get down and punish our lag after a whiffed dABK fast enough.

Also I'm pretty sure DI-ing Down and Away will get them out of the Fair 1 follow ups.
You can always read their spamming of airdodge and go for something better.
 

Zult

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Cool combo, but unfortunately a lot of people just spam air dodge and by a result never miss that window. Its worth going for though as I don't think many characters can get down and punish our lag after a whiffed dABK fast enough.

Also I'm pretty sure DI-ing Down and Away will get them out of the Fair 1 follow ups.
For some reason, some players don't spam air dodge throughout the entire combo. And when you miss the only window to, you're kinda screwed. But you're right. I usually mold my combos around the way my opponent is playing.
 

Hickz

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https://www.twitch.tv/houstongameguys/v/61493155?t=01h52m31s

Side b > quick jump to up b (the jump is needed for the combo to kill I think, still need to test it more) > jump to fair 1 > side b > dive kick > fair 1 > up b > fair (if needed, they're usually dead before this)

The only time they can air dodge is between the side b and dive kick. If they miss that window then they're most likely dead

edit: https://youtu.be/lXi9gTVs53s
I actually watched the rest of the GF. That WT read on the get-up was niiice. And so was the salt at the end x)
 

Otterz

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That was a nice GF, definitely not a trash player lol. I feel like that guy will be leading the "Ban Bayo" movement in your region with that kind of salt.
 

Zult

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You guys have no idea lol. He already was a bit salty at my Pit before the release of Bayo, so of course Bayo would make him way more salty.

Edit: Saw Aerolink do the same combo I just posted (he may or may not have seen my post) but it didn't kill because he didn't do the fair-1 after the dive kick. That or because he up aired to finish off the combo instead of doing the fair combo.
 
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Buddhahobo

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Anyone else think people are going about playing against Bayonetta the wrong way?

From what I've seen the optimal place isn't far away. It's typically being done by players who don't seem to know anything about the character (as one deals with every character they don't know, basically) and as such they get ****ed up anyway in the end because they have no idea how side-b works on either the ground of the air. They're also typically the players who think they can score a free hit by airdodging and falling right next to Bayo, then pressing a button.

The best place seems to be mid range; far enough that WT can't hit or most of her normal attacks, still in her slow smash range.

Without some sort of constant pressuring, one's strategy becomes too predictable, like being known for only going in in a Poker game when you know you have a winning hand.
 

Silvera

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Anyone else think people are going about playing against Bayonetta the wrong way?

From what I've seen the optimal place isn't far away. It's typically being done by players who don't seem to know anything about the character (as one deals with every character they don't know, basically) and as such they get ****ed up anyway in the end because they have no idea how side-b works on either the ground of the air. They're also typically the players who think they can score a free hit by airdodging and falling right next to Bayo, then pressing a button.

The best place seems to be mid range; far enough that WT can't hit or most of her normal attacks, still in her slow smash range.

Without some sort of constant pressuring, one's strategy becomes too predictable, like being known for only going in in a Poker game when you know you have a winning hand.
No doubt that this is what I had thought as well.
The way the (constant) WT spamming to attempt to counterattack other players (from what I've seen), I think imo that it's just a bit lazy and, as said, predictable.
 

Flamegeyser

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No doubt that this is what I had thought as well.
The way the (constant) WT spamming to attempt to counterattack other players (from what I've seen), I think imo that it's just a bit lazy and, as said, predictable.
What I find funny is that most people don't seem to realize that you can WT Bullet Arts. Sometimes I'll start spamming dtilt BA until they do it too and get a free punish.

Other than that I actually WT very little. The only times I do it are on Stall-Then-Falls because they're easy to see coming. I don't give myself enough credit to correctly predict when someone's gonna attack, but at the very least I should probably learn how to punish if I do land it.
 

ParanoidDrone

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What I find funny is that most people don't seem to realize that you can WT Bullet Arts. Sometimes I'll start spamming dtilt BA until they do it too and get a free punish.

Other than that I actually WT very little. The only times I do it are on Stall-Then-Falls because they're easy to see coming. I don't give myself enough credit to correctly predict when someone's gonna attack, but at the very least I should probably learn how to punish if I do land it.
Right now my favorite Witch Time punish is getting them offstage and charging dsmash. (Really, her dsmash is basically my favorite kill in the game.) Unfortunately this is almost impossible to do unless they're already near the ledge.

EDIT: Also, I encountered something odd earlier. I tried to Witch Time against Peach, and her Peach Bomber went right through me. I believe it uses something other than a normal hitbox at first to detect if it should initiate the actual hit -- is it possible Witch Time ignores this? Raptor Boost works similarly, I think, if someone wants to test.

It's also possible something else is going on and I'm just crazy...
 
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Ghidorah14

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Right now my favorite Witch Time punish is getting them offstage and charging dsmash. (Really, her dsmash is basically my favorite kill in the game.) Unfortunately this is almost impossible to do unless they're already near the ledge.
You can use grounded SideB (no kick) to send them horizontal, and then time a downsmash at the ledge to catch them when they exit witch time.

Personally, my favorite witch time punish is dtilt, uptilt, upsmash. This is usually because I'm no good at ladder combos.
 

meleebrawler

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Personally, when I need to raise damage in Witch Time I dribble the opponent with alternating dsmashes/dairs and usmashes.
 

TheColorfulOrca

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Hey, I was wondering if I'd be able to use the images provided for Bayo's attacks in my guide. I'd really appreciate it. Credit would be given, of course.
 

Dre89

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Hey guys I was just wondering if there's any reason to use jab.

I know it does 21% (16% if stale) but dtilt is quicker by 2 frames and has the same FAF. I don't really know what you can get off dtilt (I'm new to the character) so I'm not sure if dtilt follow ups will net more damage. I've normally been able to to link jab1 into dtilt but that's only an extra 1.5%.

I'm also unsure if jab combo and BA unstales moves. If so a jab combo would be really good for refreshing uair or bair.
 
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meleebrawler

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Hey guys I was just wondering if there's any reason to use jab.

I know it does 21% (16% if stale) but dtilt is quicker by 2 frames and has the same FAF. I don't really know what you can get off dtilt (I'm new to the character) so I'm not sure if dtilt follow ups will net more damage. I've normally been able to to link jab1 into dtilt but that's only an extra 1.5%.

I'm also unsure if jab combo and BA unstales moves. If so a jab combo would be really good for refreshing uair or bair.
By not going through with the multihit (stopping at jab 3), you leave the opponent right in front of you, confused. Something to consider when the opponent is at higher percents and stuff like Witch Twist and Heel Slide stop comboing.

Not too sure on specifics, but any multihit that requires you to mash to keep the combo going does add mutiple uses to stale queue.
 

Ghidorah14

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Bayo's jab isnt reliant on mashing. Once you initiate the 4th hit, you just hold the button to maximize damage. Releasing early it lets you end jab early, which is useful against opponents who can DI out before the finisher.

Stopping at the 3rd hit isnt a good idea in general, though, as people mashing their combo breakers or jumping can escape.
 

Flamegeyser

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Jab is good to build%, and the fact that it's multi-hit and that you take steps forward makes it more useful in some circumstances. At late%s when combos basically don't work, it's a good way to rack up damage, and no matter when you hit it, it puts you in a good position.
 

Ghidorah14

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Not to mention that its super easy to bait people with BA jab 1 and then hit them with the full combo when/if they rush in thinking it's an easy opening.
 

Dre89

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Thanks for the info

I know it's % specific, but I'd like to know what the best follow ups are out of dtilt. I'm curious to know if you can get more damage out of a dtilt on average than a jab combo.
 

Flamegeyser

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Thanks for the info

I know it's % specific, but I'd like to know what the best follow ups are out of dtilt. I'm curious to know if you can get more damage out of a dtilt on average than a jab combo.
Well at low%s, pretty much anything. The easiest to land is fair1, since it's our fastest aerial and hits in front of us. Fair1 can lead into naturally fair23, but also uair with some tight timing, which you can do a couple of times at low %s, and if you can land it will link into just about anything else. This'll work up until about 90%(the fair1, not fair1->uair), then you might have to dj to reach the fair1. Other than fair1, there's also utilt (if they're super close) RAR bair and uair (difficult, and sometimes won't work until 30%), or nair (which links into fair1 at less than 50% in general, or ABK almost always). Post 100%, our dtilt options are mostly relegated to fh fair (if you can land it), uair, or RAR bair. You can land ABK too, but at that % don't expect much. dtilt->uair kills at about 130% stage and character depending, it's one of our easiest kill confirms but it's hard to land if they DI correctly our you don't hit with the base. dtilt->bair is somewhat hard to land since you have to be sure that your dtilt hit, then immediately turn around and jump or dj into it, but DI is less important for landing it, and it kills earlier off the side (120%, or even less with rage). I'll also remind everyone that utilt at 110%+ also true combos into uair, and kill confirms in just the same way (it also does more damage than dtilt, making starting %s earlier). The angle is also 90 I think, so DI is almost moot for the opponent.
 

TheColorfulOrca

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Here is a list of possible DTilt combos. Most of the time, DTilt combos do more than Jab, but DI an SDI can mess up those combos. Jab always does a consistent 20%.

The combos are organized primarily by what move they start with. Then, they will be categorized by what percent they work at, and color-coded based on this chart:

Green - True
Yellow - Reliable Link/Followup
Orange - Situational/Read
Magenta - Air Dodge Read/Frame Trap

If a combo looks like this:
DTilt > Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair

Then it means that Dtilt > Fair2 is true, but Fair2 > WT is not. However, it is still a reliable option and is difficult to escape. WT > ABK is true, but the second ABK can be airdodged out of with good DI. Finally, ABK > Uair is true.

-If a combo is underlined, then it is a B&B combo and should be used more often (coming soon).
-If there are two percents listed at the end of a combo, the first percent corresponds to the first slashed move. The second percent corresponds to the latter slashed move.
-If Fair is in a combo, assume it is all three hits unless otherwise specified.

-If (Death) is listed at the end of a combo, but there are two options for the final hit, assume only the latter move causes death.
-If there is an asterisk at the end of a move, it means to go to that move combo section for further followup information.
-All combos are tested in Training Mode against Mario. Rage, DI, and SDI may affect combo results.
-(Low Percent - 0-30%, Mid Percent - 31-70%, High Percent - 71-120%, Very High Percent - 121-170%)

Down Tilt (Close): The close hit of DTilt is generally the better hit for combos, as it knocks the opponent a bit closer to you, making it easier to follow up with a move. However, it is best used as a punish, as it is quite hard to get close enough to your opponent for this hit in the neutral.

Low Percents:
DTilt > UTilt* (Both hits) - 14%

DTilt > Charged USmash - 23%


DTilt > SH Nair > ABK > WT > ABK > Uair - 43%
DTilt > SH Nair > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 39%/36%
DTilt > SH Nair > Grab* - 9%

DTilt > SH Fair - 17%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > Bair - 28%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 33%/30%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 38%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair - 49%/45%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK/Fair1 > WT > Uair - 50%/47%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 47%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 39%/36%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 33%/31%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJCWT > ABK > Bair - 41%

DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > Bair - 31%
DTilt > SH ABK > WT > ABK > Bair/Uair - 39%/36%

DTilt > WT > DJ Fair - 21%
DTilt > WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > Fair - 32%
DTilt > WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 42%
DTIlt > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 36%
DTilt > WT > DJ ABK > WT > ABK > Uair - 37%
DTilt > WT > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 27%/25%
DTilt > WT > DJCWT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 37%

Mid Percents:
DTilt > FH Nair > DJ ABK > WT > ABK - 31%
DTilt > FH Nair > DJ ABK > ABK > Uair - 36%
DTilt > FH Nair > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 50%/48%

DTilt > SH Fair - 17%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Uair - 30%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 36%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 45%/43%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > ABK > DJCWT > Uair - 43%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > Uair - 36%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 42%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > WT > ABK > Uair (Death) - 39%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > Uair - 37%

DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 31%/27%
DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > WT > Fair1 > WT > Uair (Death) - 41%

DTilt > SH WT > DJ Fair - 21%
DTIlt > SH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 40%
DTilt > SH WT > DJ Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 38%/34%
DTilt > SH WT > DJ ABK > WT > ABK > Uair - 36%
DTilt > SH WT > ABK > ABK > DJCWT > Uair - 38%

High Percents:

DTilt > FH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Uair (Death) - 41%
DTilt > FH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > WT > Uair (Death) - 41%

DTilt > FH Uair > DJ Bair/Uair - 25%/21%
DTilt > FH Uair > DJ WT > ABK - 24%

DTilt > FH ABK > ABK > Uair - 27%

DTilt > FH WT > DJ Fair - 21%
DTilt > FH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 29%/27%

Very High Percents:
DTilt > FH Uair - 15%

Down Tilt (Tip): The tip of DTilt has identical kcockback to that of the close hit. However, it isn't as good in combos because you just aren't as close to the opponent, making followups at certain percents more difficult. It is easier to hit with the tip in the neutral, though, and still has good combos. The best way to follow up with an aerial after hitting with the tip is to run on the ground a bit, then jump up. Bayonetta's run speed is faster than her air speed, so she reaches the opponent more quickly. Interestingly, the tip does 1% more than the close hit.

Low Percents:
DTilt > SH Nair > ABK > WT > ABK > Uair - 44%
DTilt > SH Nair > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 40%/37%
DTilt > SH Nair > Grab* - 10%

DTilt > SH Fair - 18%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > Bair - 29%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 35%/32%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 39%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair - 48%/46%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > WT > Uair - 43%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 48%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > Bair - 43%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 33%/31%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJCWT > ABK > Bair - 41%

DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > Bair - 32%
DTilt > SH ABK > WT > ABK > Bair/Uair - 40%/37%


DTIlt > WT > ABK > ABK > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 41%/39%
DTilt > WT > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 31%/29%
DTilt > WT > DJCWT > ABK > Bair - 39%

Mid Percents:
DTilt > FH Nair > DJ ABK > WT > ABK - 32%
DTilt > FH Nair > DJ ABK > ABK > Uair - 35%
DTilt > FH Nair > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Uair (Death) - 50%

DTilt > SH Fair - 18%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 31%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 39%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Uair (Death) - 45%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > WT > Uair - 41%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > Uair - 35%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 44%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > WT > ABK > Uair (Death) - 42%
DTilt > SH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > Uair - 37%

DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 33%/29%
DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 35%
DTilt > SH ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 44%/42%

DTilt > SH WT > DJ Fair - 22%
DTilt > SH WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 40%
DTilt > SH WT > DJ Fair1 > ABK > ABK > Uair - 35%
DTilt > SH WT > DJ ABK > WT > ABK > Uair - 39%
DTilt > SH WT > ABK > ABK > DJCWT > Fair/Uair - 40%/38%
High Percents:
DTilt > FH Fair1 > WT > DJ ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 38%
DTilt > FH Fair1 > ABK > WT > DJ ABK > WT > Uair (Death) - 42%

DTilt > FH Uair > DJ Bair/Uair - 29%/25%
DTilt > FH Uair > DJ WT > ABK - 25%

DTilt > FH ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair - 35%
DTilt > FH ABK > ABK > WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 42%

DTilt > FH WT > DJ Fair - 18%
DTilt > FH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 26%
DTilt > FH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 37%

Very High Percents:

DTilt > FH Uair - 16%

Note that at low percents, Fair1 > WT is true, but very difficult to consistently land (usually the Fair1 pops the opponent too far away for WT). While Fair2 > WT isn't true, it is generally more consistent, so you can substitute Fair1 for Fair2 at low percents where you see fit. Starting at mid percents, Fair1 > WT becomes consistently true.

If you would like to learn more about Bayonetta, or just look at her combos, you can check out my guide here. Hope this helped!
 

Dre89

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That's some really good stuff, but I think some of it is no longer guaranteed since the patch.

On another note, I was wondering if dash attack has more property than HS. It seems like it does to me. If it has high priority it might give it a niche for punishing landings through aerials or bursting through projectiles.
 

TheColorfulOrca

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I believe that all the combos listed are true as of the 1.1.6 patch, but only with no DI or SDI. Since it became much easier to SDI ABK and WT, some of those combos might not be reliable. If the opponent doesn't SDI, you'll have a much better time. I'll edit the post later and underline the most reliable combos.

As for DA vs. HS, personally, I believe DA is quite outclassed by HS. Both are very unsafe on shield, but at least you can cancel the kick if they shielded the slide. It also has a bit of a delay at the beginning. But what really makes HS so good for me is that it has much, much more combo potential. At low percents, the kick is guaranteed from the slide, and combos into WT. At very high percents, when the kick won't reach, you can actually true combo the early hit of the slide into a Fair. DA, meanwhile, has no potential followups, and the start-up delay means it doesn't combo from anything. You are right in the fact that it is good to punish landings, but it isn't the most effective way to deal with projectiles. HS can even go under some projectiles, such as Link's fully charged arrow. While DA has some use, overall I use HS much more.

Here is a list of HS/HSK combos, if you're interested.


Heel Slide/Heel Slide Kick: While horribly unsafe on shield, both HS and HSK are great combo starters. At low percents, HSK is more useful, as it is more reliable and does more damage. At higher percents, when the kick won't connect, you can use regular HS to bait an air dodge and punish accordingly. It's best to hit with at the beginning of the slide, as it places opponents more directly above you, and also makes the kick easier to land.

Low Percents:
HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair - 30%
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 51%
HSK > SH WT > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 45%/41%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair - 48%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > Fair - 36%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 46%

Mid Percents:
HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair
- 30%
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 49%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 47%45%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > Uair - 34%

High Percents:

HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > FH WT > DJ Fair - 30%
HSK > FH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 36%/34%
HSK > FH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 47%/45%

Very High Percents:
HS > FH Fair - 20%

Hope this helped!
 

Patriarachnid

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No doubt that this is what I had thought as well.
The way the (constant) WT spamming to attempt to counterattack other players (from what I've seen), I think imo that it's just a bit lazy and, as said, predictable.
I actually watched the rest of the GF. That WT read on the get-up was niiice. And so was the salt at the end x)
What I find funny is that most people don't seem to realize that you can WT Bullet Arts. Sometimes I'll start spamming dtilt BA until they do it too and get a free punish.
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair - 30%
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 51%
HSK > SH WT > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 45%/41%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair - 48%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > Fair - 36%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 46%
(Oh, geez. I think we need some consensus over our acronyms, because things get confusing when WT can mean either Witch Twist or Witch Time.

How about we use 'WT' for Witch Time, and 'WTw' or 'upB' for Witch Twist.)
 

Flamegeyser

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Messages
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(Oh, geez. I think we need some consensus over our acronyms, because things get confusing when WT can mean either Witch Twist or Witch Time.

How about we use 'WT' for Witch Time, and 'WTw' or 'upB' for Witch Twist.)
Apologies, I meant WTi for Witch Time. WTw is Witch Twist as well. Sorry!

In an attempt to actually contribute, Lima on the Bayo Discord found a potential frame trap off of uthrow at about 30%. He did it on another Bayo, and he went for a uair, which the other Bayo airdodged, and then a bair (which landed, and also allowed an autocancel which went into a grab, but that's sorta unrelated). Apparently this even catches jump.

I found a similar(ish) one that can force the opponent to always try and jump after HS. HS can combo into utilt, but at low%s, they can airdodge. If they do that, then we can dtilt, either of which start a combo. This means that they have to either throw out a quick aerial option (which not everyone can do and stops working at mid%s) or jump, which is a good spot for us (WTw, uair, or a landing punish). Furthermore, we can condition them to be forced to do that, which can lead to all sorts of craziness.
 

Dre89

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I believe that all the combos listed are true as of the 1.1.6 patch, but only with no DI or SDI. Since it became much easier to SDI ABK and WT, some of those combos might not be reliable. If the opponent doesn't SDI, you'll have a much better time. I'll edit the post later and underline the most reliable combos.

As for DA vs. HS, personally, I believe DA is quite outclassed by HS. Both are very unsafe on shield, but at least you can cancel the kick if they shielded the slide. It also has a bit of a delay at the beginning. But what really makes HS so good for me is that it has much, much more combo potential. At low percents, the kick is guaranteed from the slide, and combos into WT. At very high percents, when the kick won't reach, you can actually true combo the early hit of the slide into a Fair. DA, meanwhile, has no potential followups, and the start-up delay means it doesn't combo from anything. You are right in the fact that it is good to punish landings, but it isn't the most effective way to deal with projectiles. HS can even go under some projectiles, such as Link's fully charged arrow. While DA has some use, overall I use HS much more.

Here is a list of HS/HSK combos, if you're interested.


Heel Slide/Heel Slide Kick: While horribly unsafe on shield, both HS and HSK are great combo starters. At low percents, HSK is more useful, as it is more reliable and does more damage. At higher percents, when the kick won't connect, you can use regular HS to bait an air dodge and punish accordingly. It's best to hit with at the beginning of the slide, as it places opponents more directly above you, and also makes the kick easier to land.

Low Percents:
HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair - 30%
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair2 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 51%
HSK > SH WT > ABK > ABK > Bair/Uair - 45%/41%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair - 48%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > Fair - 36%
HSK > SH WT > DJCWT > ABK > ABK > Uair - 46%

Mid Percents:
HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair
- 30%
HSK > SH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > ABK > ABK > Uair (Death) - 49%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 47%45%
HSK > SH WT > DJ ABK > Uair - 34%

High Percents:

HS > UTilt (Second Hit)* > Jab*/FTilt* - 20% OR 14%/12%

HSK > FH WT > DJ Fair - 30%
HSK > FH WT > DJ Fair1 > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 36%/34%
HSK > FH WT > DJ ABK > ABK > WT > Fair/Uair (Death) - 47%/45%

Very High Percents:
HS > FH Fair - 20%

Hope this helped!
I thought you could no longer hit aerials like uair after WT unless you jumped, but even then that's not guaranteed. Your list has several combos that entail WT-aerial so I'm pretty sure they're no longer guaranteed.

I know HS is generally better than DA, I was just curious if DA had more priority for plowinh through hitboxes. If it did then it might actually have a niche, as opposed to being outclassed by HD in every scenario.
 

Flamegeyser

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I thought you could no longer hit aerials like uair after WT unless you jumped, but even then that's not guaranteed. Your list has several combos that entail WT-aerial so I'm pretty sure they're no longer guaranteed.

I know HS is generally better than DA, I was just curious if DA had more priority for plowinh through hitboxes. If it did then it might actually have a niche, as opposed to being outclassed by HD in every scenario.
DA does have a couple different uses. It's got faster startup, meaning that it can do long ranged punishes with greater ease. If the opponent is at the ledge, holding BA can also make it so that they get pushed off, making it safe even on shield. Other than those, there's not a whole lot of reason to use DA over HS.
 
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Zalezus

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HS does have a couple different uses. It's got faster startup, meaning that it can do long ranged punishes with greater ease. If the opponent is at the ledge, holding BA can also make it so that they get pushed off, making it safe even on shield. Other than those, there's not a whole lot of reason to use DA over HS.
HS may have faster startup on the attack, but the slide itself is quite slow. Useful as a long-range punish? Yes, but can still be read pretty easy. Useful as an escape option? You bet.

DA's active hitbox may come out later, but the thrust travels the same distance in a shorter amount of time, with a quicker FAF frame.

Another way to maybe look at that is HS covers roughly the same distance in 24 frames that DA covers in 5. It may have better combo potential and may ultimately be the more preferred on hit, but DA is definitely not a bad mix up.
 
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Flamegeyser

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HS may have faster startup on the attack, but the slide itself is quite slow. Useful as a long-range punish? Yes, but can still be read pretty easy. Useful as an escape option? You bet.

DA's active hitbox may come out later, but the thrust travels the same distance in a shorter amount of time, with a quicker FAF frame.

Another way to maybe look at that is HS covers roughly the same distance in 24 frames that DA covers in 5. It may have better combo potential and may ultimately be the more preferred on hit, but DA is definitely not a bad mix up.
****, I switched those around. I meant DA in place of HS.

Other than that (in an effort to actually contribute) I find myself going for nair strings now. **** like dtilt->utilt->nair->ABK->ABK->uair/bair at low%s, because I still gotta work on fair->uair and sour bair->uair.
 

Zalezus

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WTw1 (strong SDI up, "good DI") can lead to a frame trap for either DJUair or DJ[C]WTw2 > ABK > ABK > Uair, both of which can kill at high percent.

If you wanted to cut the combo short, ABK1 (early) > Uair is for real and can kill, but strong SDI up can sometimes escape (haven't checked exact percent but it seems reliable from like 0-80) By extension, you can use a sour spot ACNair to set up ABK instead of landing for dtilt/utilt. Both are good combo options :)

Not sure how much of this has already been discussed, but here it is!
 

CyberZixx

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what do ya'll think are her best stages? i'm assuming T&C and FD are good for us while I dislike duck hunt but.
 

Flamegeyser

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what do ya'll think are her best stages? i'm assuming T&C and FD are good for us while I dislike duck hunt but.
Lylat is her best IMO because A. the platforms are low enough for utilt and sh aerials, B. the blast zones are somewhat small, so killing is easier, C. The ledge can give others trouble but almost certainly not us, and D. the tilt can make BC not suck.
 

TheColorfulOrca

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From my experience, Battlefield is a good pick.

- You can short hop an aerial, say, Nair or Bair, and it can hit opponents on a platform, while you won't land on the platform.
- UTilt hits opponents on a platform as well.
- The platforms can help to extend combos by preserving her double jump. It also gives you a safe place to land after using Witch Twist.
- It's much easier to land an aerial ABK on an opponent on a platform.

Overall, the platforms are great for us, as we are great at pressuring opponents above us with our aerials and Witch Twist. T&C and Lylat Cruise are good for the same reasons, but I generally prefer Battlefield.

On a side note, I really like omega stages with walls all the way down, as it allows her to utilize her wall cling to great effect.

Hope this helped!
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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Messages
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From my experience, Battlefield is a good pick.

- You can short hop an aerial, say, Nair or Bair, and it can hit opponents on a platform, while you won't land on the platform.
- UTilt hits opponents on a platform as well.
- The platforms can help to extend combos by preserving her double jump. It also gives you a safe place to land after using Witch Twist.
- It's much easier to land an aerial ABK on an opponent on a platform.

Overall, the platforms are great for us, as we are great at pressuring opponents above us with our aerials and Witch Twist. T&C and Lylat Cruise are good for the same reasons, but I generally prefer Battlefield.

On a side note, I really like omega stages with walls all the way down, as it allows her to utilize her wall cling to great effect.

Hope this helped!
makes sense. I'm curious why you prefer BF over DL?
 

TheColorfulOrca

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One reason I like BF more is because of the wind on DL. I know that Bayo has a great recovery, but it can easily mess me up if I'm on my second Witch Twist or something like that.
Also, I don't have DL downloaded, so I sort of forgot about it... :facepalm::facepalm:

Either would be fine for Bayo really, the smaller vertical blast zone on DL is quite helpful for Bayo. I haven't had many chances to play on DL, so BF is just more natural to me.

Hope this helped!
 
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