searched and didn't find anything, so i have a theory

[Mew2King]

Azen sucks at escaping grabs compared to like Cort and PC, just rotate really fast, Cort says guess when you're going to get grabbed and struggle early, and mash buttons as well

 

[Vts]

My real reason for quitting is partially that my controller is going to break pretty soon. (It is already starting to go.) I'm assuming it's going to finally die at Event 52, and I don't feel like breaking in/getting used to a new controller.

But yeah, anyone going to Event 52: If you want to play me in friendlies, just find me at any point and I'll go to a TV with you for at least 5 or so matches, and I'll use whatever characters you want.

i wanna play you , i play ic's so be ready. your character doesn't matter to me.

u should get a new controller so if i do win no johns , but its doubtful.

hmm chinese chicken time.

 

[I.B]

Noooo, I won't get to play Cactus =(

 

[Banks]

End result? People randomly take matches from me and feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

ok johntuar

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Cort says guess when you're going to get grabbed and struggle early, and mash buttons as well

Wow that's really smart, never thought of that (there are situations where you know you're going to get grabbed and there's nothing you can do about it, so you might aswell start mashing)
Thanks for the advice

 

[full_95]

I came in just to say that I hate Cactuar and laugh about it, but this is an awesome thread, I really like your articulation of "complex analysis," well put.

It's a very long road to the top of competitive Smash, there has been much discussion about it because of how interesting it is that some people are THAT good, and it's def worth talking about.

Just to throw in my two cents, I think experience is probably one of the most important factors on the road to becoming a top smasher. It is, however, fairly clear that this particular list assumes players to have a lot of experience with the game.

In my opinion, though, a player's ability to effectively analyze the game comes very very much from past experiences, and ultimately from just how quickly that player learns from his experiences.

p.s. Cactuar is not quitting b/c he's going to give me intense spacie/marth practice and we're both going to reach the next level.

Well thanks mang, appreciate the props. I was feeling real philosophical when I first made the thread and kind of just made it up as I went (even though I had been wondering about it for a while).

Totally true that more experience means better analysis (assuming that you are one of the uber pros capable of making the step to the elite level). But I think it goes even deeper than experience. I've already said that I think the difference (for many of the elite players) is physiological. I think if you gain enough experience and are physically able to use it with maximum efficiency where analysis is concerned, you are going to be better than somebody who has exactly the same amount of experience, but can only analyze with medium efficiency because, for whatever reason, their brain is not capable of maximum efficiency(by maximum efficiency, I am obviously not talking about superdoodleman perfect control efficiency, but the highest efficiency possible to a human).

Basically the point of this thread is to argue that the elite smashers are physiologically better than the rest of the top pros. It doesn't have anything to do with experience, tech skill or (yes... I went there) mindgames, because at the top level of smash, these are nearly equal. I will substitute different terms for each of the previous three (which are undoubtedly the best technical terms to define the best smashers)

1. Tech Skill ----- Reactions and Ability to maintain during highly stressful situations with little to no loss in (or even attain better) execution.
2. Mindgames ----- Complex Analysis (both ability to create and see through mindgames)
3. Experience ----- Decision Making


While all of these factors are dependent on your ability to cope with highly stressful situations, I think the physical execution of button combinations is the first to suffer if you cannot handle the mental strain. Then, your analysis declines, followed by your decision making (in very short order). This is because, when your skill declines, you stop to think for a split second whether or not you should try a certain skill. This leads to less time to analyze with clarity (which causes you to miss subtle details), and ultimately less time to make decisions (which leads to rushed/wrong decisions). It happens in very short order, but I think it starts with a small decline in tech skill. Maybe I should add "confidence" as an important factor as some are more confident in their game than others just by their very nature and can handle stress better because they are confident in themselves.

PS: sorry it took me so long to respond, been very busy at school. And, as always, if you think I'm full of it, call me out, I've got thick skin.

 

[slartibartfast42]

I'm personally of the opinion that you're putting way too much stress on confidence/not cracking under pressure. I've always played better in tournament matches. Maybe it's because I'm usually not planning on winning. I'm nowhere near the best player, so when I start a tournament match, I'm not focusing on winning, but playing as well as I possibly can. Playing as well as I possibly can is what gets me the most satisfaction and fun out of my matches. I'm not expecting a victory, so when I go down stocks, I'm not shaken at all, I just step it up to get more satisfaction out of the match. Maybe I'll start feeling the pressure if I ever get good enough to get to the finals, but I think I could probably keep the same mindset of making the most important thing now winning but playing a good match.

The only time I've really had a loss in performance due to my mental state was one time I had 2 stocks and 0% and my opponent had 1 stock and 60%, when I had already won the first match and I was on my best stage against a mid tier character. I got overconfident and ended up losing the match. I made sure that didn't happen again and won the next match solidly though.

Also, I've always had this problem where when I'm really focused on something, I can't hear anything else. I always got yelled at at the end of silent reading in elementary school because I would never hear it when the teacher said "everyone put your books away." Someone would have to say my name, or put their hand over the page, or flicker the lights or something to get my attention, otherwise the teacher would begin the lesson, and I'd still be reading, completely oblivious to what was going on. Eventually, I had to get into the habit of checking my surroundings at the end of every page. Likewise, during tournament matches, I can't hear any talking in the background at all, or even the background music for that matter, except between stocks when nothing is happening. All I hear is my opponent's controller and the sound effects.

 

[IrArby]

Has anyone ever felt that practicing by yourself against the CPU has been slightly detrimental to your real match play (against something intelligent)?

Also, does anyone feel that learning more characters helps you be more fluid and unpredictable with your main. Granted, sometimes I'll switch and still be in Falco mode so my Falcon is trying to waveshine but certain aspects that might be bread and butter for one char sometimes translate quite nicely to my more played chars IMO.

 

[IrArby]

sorry double post*

Did I just kill a thread . . . or was this already dead?

On second thought this isn't really the right place for these questions please ignore them.

 

[full_95]

I'm personally of the opinion that you're putting way too much stress on confidence/not cracking under pressure. I've always played better in tournament matches. Maybe it's because I'm usually not planning on winning. I'm nowhere near the best player, so when I start a tournament match, I'm not focusing on winning, but playing as well as I possibly can. Playing as well as I possibly can is what gets me the most satisfaction and fun out of my matches. I'm not expecting a victory, so when I go down stocks, I'm not shaken at all, I just step it up to get more satisfaction out of the match. Maybe I'll start feeling the pressure if I ever get good enough to get to the finals, but I think I could probably keep the same mindset of making the most important thing now winning but playing a good match.

That's what I'm saying though dudeman. You are one of those guys who's brain, for whatever reason, is not daunted by tournament or high pressure matches. I, like I've said, have always played much worse in those types of matches just because my brain gets in the way of my mind, haha. I, unlike you, cannot play nearly as well in high pressure situations. I am constantly afraid of making mistakes, which tightens me up considerably. It's wierd though, because I play tailback for my college football team and I actually play just as well in those situations because I play with 100% intensity every play. So the plays that are in high pressure situations are no different to me than any other play. Smash, though, is a completely different story.

Also, I've always had this problem where when I'm really focused on something, I can't hear anything else. I always got yelled at at the end of silent reading in elementary school because I would never hear it when the teacher said "everyone put your books away." Someone would have to say my name, or put their hand over the page, or flicker the lights or something to get my attention, otherwise the teacher would begin the lesson, and I'd still be reading, completely oblivious to what was going on. Eventually, I had to get into the habit of checking my surroundings at the end of every page. Likewise, during tournament matches, I can't hear any talking in the background at all, or even the background music for that matter, except between stocks when nothing is happening. All I hear is my opponent's controller and the sound effects.

Hahaha, the same thing happens to me! Especially when I'm reading or playing a 1P game. I totally get in the zone and block out most things around me. Next time you are in that zone and people around you are talking, try to slightly focus on that noise while still focusing 95% on the game. I swear to God, this is what you hear, "Blah blah blah... Blahblahblahblah, Dooohhhblagblahbhahgh, GAAAHHHHBLAHHblahhdoohhhh." It's kind of hard to explain, but absolutely hilarious if you can hear it.

 

[IrArby]

Going with full 95's guitar analogy I find a lot of guitarist who focus to much on being techinical are often very confined imiginatively to only do what they've practiced. The people who are best at this game have put a lot of time in but in a fun setting. As EVHalen would say he never practiced but he played constantly. People like Ken are awesome at sorting out the bull**** on the screen and breaking a match down into simpler objectives to win. These people practices less and win more for this ability I think. They have more of a freedom to their less rehearsed gameplay and thus throw out wierd **** (like Bum or KDJ) that'll throw you for a loop and totally throw off your gameplan.
I win more matches when I come back to Melee after a day or two off even if I flub some tech stuff. Overthink leads to hesitation which leads to KOs.

Lastly, I find the pressure actually helps me alot if I'm feeling confident (meaning my opponent isn't very good because I'm not great myself) but gets to me if I don't have enough faith in my skill. My belief in my abitlity to perform said techs in mathces is probably the most important element IMO.

(btw I'm a pretty proficent guitarist so I'm not knocking other very technically sound guitarist in general or anything but too many people are using the same arpeggios in the same order if you follow what I'm getting at. Thats what I mean really.)

 

[full_95]

Going with full 95's guitar analogy I find a lot of guitarist who focus to much on being techinical are often very confined imiginatively to only do what they've practiced. The people who are best at this game have put a lot of time in but in a fun setting. As EVHalen would say he never practiced but he played constantly. People like Ken are awesome at sorting out the bull**** on the screen and breaking a match down into simpler objectives to win. These people practices less and win more for this ability I think. They have more of a freedom to their less rehearsed gameplay and thus throw out wierd **** (like Bum or KDJ) that'll throw you for a loop and totally throw off your gameplan.
I win more matches when I come back to Melee after a day or two off even if I flub some tech stuff. Overthink leads to hesitation which leads to KOs.

Lastly, I find the pressure actually helps me alot if I'm feeling confident (meaning my opponent isn't very good because I'm not great myself) but gets to me if I don't have enough faith in my skill. My belief in my abitlity to perform said techs in mathces is probably the most important element IMO.

(btw I'm a pretty proficent guitarist so I'm not knocking other very technically sound guitarist in general or anything but too many people are using the same arpeggios in the same order if you follow what I'm getting at. Thats what I mean really.)

Well put my man. I totally agree with the creativity part. This is why people who have rediculously sick nasty technical skill, but lack the depth of analysis to use it efficiently (against somebody who is not flaberghasted at the sheer absurdity of what they can do) cannot make the leap to elite. Now if somebody like that (ie: M2k) does have the physical/mental capacity to use those techniques with little effort while focusing mostly on the abstract aspects of the game, then they can and probably will be an elite player.

And as for the guitar stuff, I was just using that to note how to most efficiently press buttons. Van Halen might not practice, per se, but there is no doubt he has amazing technical prowess. Like you say though, it's all about using those technical skills in a creative way. That's how I play too (not nearly as good as Van Halen obviously), I hate sitting there and doing exercises all day. I just play and work on technique as I learn new songs or make up new licks. That's probably the best way to do it with smash too. Know how to use the techniques, but don't sit there and do them against a lvl 1 comp all day, go find somebody and try to incorporate the techniques into your game in an actual match setting.

 

[Brainjack]

haha 1 comment....

BUM?!?!?

but haha yea i def agree with pressure play and MINDGAMES

 

[IrArby]

Bum is an awesome DK player thats defeated great players like Isai and similarly made more than a few spacies cry or at least want to. He was never a huge tourney goer though by what I've heard.

I may have some more thoughts to edit into this later so everyone should totally be on the edge of your seats as soon as you read this.

 

[Ethan.]

I think there are some things that people just excel at, it was born into their genes regardless if they ever find their own gift or not. Having the technical capacity and the mental capacity to perform at top levels is extremely hard to attain if you are not born with it. No amount of practice can bring you to the level of someone naturally gifted because that is just how the naturally gifted brain works.

In other words, all of the truly great players of this game have something that they were born with - and have exercised - that makes them great at smash. Whether it is extreme mental multi-tasking, or being able to notice movement patterns with little to no effort, incorporating their gifts is what its about.

Being technically sound is an absolutely necessary requirement. You need to be able to notice opponents' flaws, and capitalize instantly without making mistakes of your own. This is where experience walks through the door as a helper. Experience will tell you the best way to capitalize on certain mistakes. Ideally, you want every mistake that the opponent makes to cost them a stock. However we are all human, and it is neigh short of impossible to play a perfect game of smash.

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I'd just thought to throw a few ideas out there to keep the discussion up. This is a great thread and I want to see it kept on the first page atleast.

 

[IrArby]

Sorry really long post not for the feint of heart:

But the really are no hard and fast rules for being great at smash just like everything else. As far as naturally talented goes I'd wouldn't completely agree if nothing else because of guys like M2K.

He's not THE most technical player but he is sorta known as the player with the most familiarity with the game's engine. He is very affluent with the game itself and every chars everything: frame data hitstun, you name it, all from practice. Even Cactuar who plays him more regularly has said M2K has slightly above average reactions but he knows the game inside and out. I would wager that someone as good as him wouldn't say he was naturally talented to be great at smash since that would overlook the hours of practice that he's put in on his own.

@full 95: The more I think about it I like the guitar smash analogy. In general, I hate analogys as they are very limited in what you can compare. Life is like a box of chocalates is very limited in that respect whereas between guitar smash there are alot of workable comparissions. With both, you can many times do very standard kind of things and its passable and it'll get the job done where better players might not find your play very difficult to decipher or interesting.

However, Smash is objective. Music or more specifically guitar is subjective and opinionated. To say EVHalen is better than Rusty Cooley (I agree btw) is subjective whereas Ken is better than me or fill in almost any smasher here is unbiased.

My opinion is talent takes you very far but LEARNING from experience not experience itself, is the determening factor moreso than any other one thing.

 

[Zodiac]

Very well written, but I disagree with one thing in the "handling pressure" section, about not being able to learn to play well under pressure.
An obstacle such as that can be overcome by facing the situation repeatedly. The more experience in tournaments you have, the less stressful they are going to seem. One can work through it in time.
I am certainly aware that it is not easy, however.

I think "Performing well under pressure" should be reworked.

This can be due to a great many things, for myself its that my mind wanders and the amount of focus I have on the actual fight is near zilch. for some its that get nervous, some get angry. in anycase being able to tune out of the real world and tune into the smash world is the key to performing well under pressure.

Trick - Arrive before hand at the tournament and/or gathering and mingle with everyone, don't be afraid to get to know people and friends, because the more you know them the more comfortable you will be playing smash against them or playing in a tournament while everyone is watching you. its better to have a bunch of your friends watching you rather than a bunch of strangers. If your ant-social, then get over it because this will most certainly help your performance under pressure. And its not bad at all once you get to know everyone.

Example - I went to Socal about a month and a half ago, I was very uncomfortable with my surroundings and a TON of people I had never met before. Even so I decided to push on and get to know everyone instead of being the quiet kid from Oregon. Only by the end of the second day was I comfortable enough and knew everyone well enough (Which wasn't terribly well) to perform at a somewhat competent level. this was also the only time I stood a chance against anyone there.[Except mike haze who saw fit to **** me to death with fox on dreamland ,And probably mango,Silent wolf, festizzio and emarican had I played them at that time, and when I say chance I mean two-three stocked instead of 4]

Lets say I had been there for a week, by the end of that week I would have been about 80-90% comfortable around everyone and would have been able to play worlds better. Most people are not as socially uncomfortable as I am. most people it would only take till the end of the day to be best buds. therefore. show up early, make friends, **** with confidence.

 

[IrArby]

I keep referencing famous smashers to make points since I'm no one of importance. Zodiac I think you make a good point. Only, some players at the top (lets say Ken) are so confident in their play that I would just be another noob to pick apart. Its almost impersonal at that level for them I think especially if they're cocky since getting to know me wouldn't would be a waste of their time since I'm still nobody.

For people like myself and to an extent alot of people up to the really Pro level I totally agree though. I'm from SOVA but I got into Competitive Melee while at school in Lyncburg. The first person I contacted on the boards in SOVA is the only person that I've played in what I consider to be a decent set. Everyone else I was very nervous against. It helps alot that he was an outgoing kinda person to say he aided my confidence there. Yay for supporting fellow smashers.

 

[slartibartfast42]

**** with confidence.

O.o

Anyway, I normally get nervous around random people, but I feel really comfortable around groups of smashers because I'm with people who share my interests, so I easily have stuff to talk about. With most people, I can't talk about competitive smash because to the average person, melee is a decent party game that came out 7 years ago and is long old, not a continually evolving game of intense skill and mental prowess, so with most people I feel really confined because I can't talk about one of my main hobbies. But at a smash event I feel REALLY comfortable, probably more comfortable than at any other type of event.