Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I hate to toot your own horn, Scar, but this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8rQ_0zNIg
Too good of an example to pass up.
Smooth Criminal
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
- Status
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8rQ_0zNIg
Too good of an example to pass up.
Smooth Criminal
lmao your an idiot i never said that i said if the games no fun who the hell cares if the game is competetive or not it needs to be fun before competetive genius. read again illiterate person.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
THAT **** IS WHY WE NEED SOME FRIGGEN HITSTUN!
-Orders USB Gecko-
Literacy rates tend to improve when one's posts have good spelling and grammar.
Also, if the game can be made competitive, it will be fun to begin with. Like melee was.
-DD
wow you ignorant little bich, i not once got on YOU for whatever YOU said, i like melee aswell you **** so stop tryna make it seem as if im directing my statements at you and who the fuhck are you to call me a n00b? you dont know shiet about me, so stop judging others before you know where they are coming from. jeez you act like a little child jumping at complaining about something that they dont like here ill put it in caps and bold for you so you can read just like a 12 year old child <b>"IF YOU DONT LIKE BRAWL, GTFO AND GO BACK TO MELEE DUMB FUHCK"</b> can you read that? if not then theres no hopes for you. ive lost all respect for you and from what i read there was some although i didnt know who you were as a person. this is the type of shiet im talking about, your bashing your own community and for what? because i have an oppinion just like you? i say your the n00b for being a little girl about a game that we all play and love get over yourself and once you do that maybe you'll understand something about other people and life aswell, you WILL NOT always get what YOU want
Aesir
Smash Master
http://palmerpolitics.ytmnd.com/
Anyhow despite the fact that you're resorting to ad hominem, you really haven't backed up your reasoning whats so ever.
Just thought I'd tell you, when you resort to Ad Hominem you really open yourself up to flame bait and you really don't want that LOL.
actually your wrong i dont care. internet beef is just dumb, he needs to get over himself and it backs itself fine if you guys would get your head out of your a$$es and actually try to listen to what others are saying instead of just turning it off imediately after you hear something you dont like then you'd understand but thats just something children tend to do, maybe he should hit puberty before he tries to start things without understanding where a person is coming from.
Aesir
Smash Master
See this is why you're not being taken seriously, you're resorting to Ad hominem.
Even in this post you're just throwing out insults rather then attack their argument you're attacking the person. Thats not how you argue when you're trying to make a claim, if I came in here saying "All people who play brawl are ***ots and are defects to society you ****ers" I wouldn't be taken seriously I wouldn't even expect to be taken seriously.
If you think we're wrong, attack the argument and not the person. You have yet to do that, and I feel you can't simply because you've resorted to personal attacks.
Sorry, but... asking me to read over your failure of a paragraph again and again to find some hidden meaning is similar to torture. I'll indulge you one more time, but that's it.
I learned Brawl, and it's really a game that just doesn't get much more fun for me now than it did before. Sorry if I can't love it. As for Melee... aren't we already?
If I wanted to play a stupid little fun game I have Mario Party (seriously, I have it). It's fun, there's only light competition among the minigames and there's really not much drive to improve.
Playing Melee, it's fun, it's fast, and there's so many things to learn in order to get better... At least half the fun I get is in learning how to improve my game. Brawl is still fun, I suppose. It's slower. But the big problem is that I don't feel like there's anything for me to develop in at all. Where's the fun in doing the same thing over and over, because anything new I find out just isn't as good of a plan as what I already knew? The competitive aspect of Smash is where I get my fun, I don't care if you like doing free-for-alls all the time, but don't expect me to share your likes and dislikes for no reason.
While this really isn't on the topic of the thread... if there isn't as love for the game I'm playing, yet it's being forced over the game I prefer, shouldn't I be a little upset? People keep saying "if you don't like Brawl, go back to Melee." But they know that's an empty little taunt, because Smash is no fun on your own.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
LMAO Aesir, that was hilarious.
i dont do FFA's at all o_o and i understand your arguement although if you find mario party fun... then... id have to say thats pretty odd.. >__> and actually it is not an empty taunt because i still play melee as well, i too have my fair share of issues with brawl but i made up my mind i will continue playing both. you can call it a failure of a paragraph but i guess its just something you wouldnt understand ah? seems like 2 people have there must be some reason why you havent. because your being closed minded... now about your "i dont believe theres anything for me to develop in" in that your pretty much saying your as good as you can get and your perfect. lastly nobody is forcing you to play brawl o_o i dunno where you got that idea. you have 3 choices in you sitch, 1. find a way to regain melee's popularity, 2. get over it and play brawl, and 3. you can just quit smash all together? make up your mind.
ehh i have attacked the arguement go back a few pages, if you disagree then tough? and i didnt attack anyone until i was attacked so.. maybe you should check yourself?
this has nothing to do with my personal choices either... because i love both games (so if we all went backt o melee i wouldnt care id be fine.), just seems like too many people are stuck in the past and ruining brawl for many of the new comers or even some of the old due to it not being the "cool" thing to do.
What, you don't find doing completely random things fun sometimes?
I can only play the game if someone else is playing it. I don't know about Florida, but there's a rather noticeable lack of a competitive Melee scene over here in Michigan.
Your paragraph failing has barely anything to do with the content and everything to do with the readability. But yes, I suppose I am close-minded for being unable to effectively read Internet speak, lack of grammar and misspellings and all.
Technically, I pretty much am. The only things I'm learning in Brawl are "stop making stupid mistakes" and... well, yeah.
1. Except that pointing out why Melee is better in my opinion gets me labeled as a complainer and nothing else happens >_>
2. Already did that
3. Considering doing this given the current state of MI's Smash community and Smashboards community in general
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Shengnu, stop triple posting and learn to multiquote.
bleh... dude dont quit smash -__- lol no i dont find completely random things fun all the time, i feel theres a time and a place for it (like playing with friends who dunno how to play) and sorry i didnt know we were in a grammar class if i did i may have watched my spelling aswell as my grammar? o_o and id have to disagree if you think your perfect at brawl.. >_> you can always improve and you would be the best if you were perfect and iono i guess i dont think you are :/ and i feel you on the gaming alone thats why i said we needed to get creative so EVERYONE isnt converted to brawl.. but bashing brawl is the wrong way of going about it IMO o_o
yeahh well thats why i want the fighting over brawl/melee to stop because our community is like segregated its melee fans vs brawl fans im like stuck in the middle... tired of seeing the forum fights :/
uh, im lazy and i dont really care what you want atm?
Moderators WILL care. Don't double post.
...Way to change your mind?
Tell me how I can improve in Tic-Tac-Toe. Tell me if Chinook can improve any more in checkers.
Nobody's bashing Brawl, you're just hating on anyone who finds fault with it.
i dont hate on anyone who finds fault on it o_o cause i find many things wrong with it myself... and im not telling you TO quit im telling you those are basically your 3 options at this stage of the game. and let a moderator do their job, she doesnt need to get into it :3
and i guess you cant get better at tic-tac-toe but the games still in the early stages it may change :/ and iono i feel tic-tac-toe is under rating brawl a lot x_x
I hope ShengNu feels like a man now that he misspelled curse words on the internet. Did your balls drop in that post, or did someone do it for you? Also, when I make fun of someone, I at least make sure I have sentence structure instead of babbling incoherent AIM-type insults, especially on a forum. You know how many people saw you explode? You know how many people see me not? It should be apparent who is the 12 year old, shouldn't it?
I would say I lost respect for you, but I don't reserve any for new people.
BTW, no matter what you or anyone says, it won't stop me from tripping, Samus from sucking, campers from winning, spammers from dominating, and casuals from ruling. Brawl sucks. You can play it if you want, but everyone, EVERYONE, needs to recognize Melee as the better game.
I would say I lost respect for you, but I don't reserve any for new people.
BTW, no matter what you or anyone says, it won't stop me from tripping, Samus from sucking, campers from winning, spammers from dominating, and casuals from ruling. Brawl sucks. You can play it if you want, but everyone, EVERYONE, needs to recognize Melee as the better game.
Competitive means you trash talk everyone and say you know the most, even if you don't. Also, if you are honestly calling Melee better, you're a sad case, unless you're the kind of person who like show boating your glitching skills, which is why you cannot adapt to Brawl, as it's too different.
Also what's with all the hate guys? Jeez. Flames everywhere!
Also what's with all the hate guys? Jeez. Flames everywhere!
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
I'm sorry I just came here and don't feel like lurking. How is Melee better than Brawl?
Awesomasaur
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2008
- Messages
- 14
All this topic tells me is that Brawl players are ******* and Melee players are ***** who take everything too seriously.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
We love you too, man.
Don't blame me, I just joined and that's the image I've received!
Well that, and my friend just IMed me as soon as I registered saying it's good to learn about basics from, but the community itself isn't worth it.
Aesir
Smash Master
Actually we're all pretty nice easy going guys, who are very well accepting of new players who want to learn generally.
But being told we're ******* is a fine and good way of being flamed and really being treated like crap.
and your friend sounds like a 4chaner which isn't the best place to be getting accurate information on anything at all.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
I don't know why you hate smashboards. It's a great place.
I also learned that people assume too much, considering my friend hates 4chan, which people from here seem to refer to quite a bit! Assumptions, flames, what a great place. It's a mix of 4chan and Newgrounds. We got people acting highly immature about stupid things, and we got nice images to be linked to randomly, as well as old jokes that are no longer funny.
Aesir
Smash Master
I assumed it was 4chan because it happens quite a bit, you get flamed because you act like you know what you're talking about but you don't this has become evident every time you post, which is why you get treated like you do.
Think before you post, it's a great asset in any online community.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
What's that supposed to mean. I'm ready to defend at any time. SEE ME.
It allows the person who is better to win, through any means necessary. This is not true in Brawl.
Simplified enough, or should I post my 1 page essay on why?
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Could you please?
Fisticuffs! Right now!
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Maaaaan, that's so old.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Stop spamming.
Reasons why Melee is better: (A discussion that should not be in this thread, but has been building towards this post anyway...)
Character balance: (or the lack there of)
In melee, there was this kind of "rock, paper scissors,"thing going on. Someone who played Marth well could be beaten by someone who plays Fox well, someone who played Falco well could beat someone who played Fox well, someone who played Sheik well could beat someone who played Falco well, and so on. Characters countered one another without countering the entire character list. I played Samus and I found that the matchup against Marth, Sheik, Falcon, and Peach were harder than most others. This isn't true for Falco or Jigglypuff. Almost everyone was the same way.
In Brawl, as it appears now, there is a specific lacking in character balance. A character on the current "tier list," cannot beat someone higher than them. Even if you are better than the other person, you are not likely to beat my Pit with Sonic, Mario, Toon Link, or anyone except those who are better. Then, when you get into that field, I feel like I don't stand a chance! I cannot beat a Meta 1 v 1, I just can't do it. The match-up is so bad for Pit, that I might as well call it quits if they choose him. That's it. I've beaten many foxes, even the ones on my and higher levels. It can be done, but if someone is slightly lower or on my level, let alone better then me, in Brawl with a better character... nice try.
There are serious balance issues in Brawl compared to melee. Yes, Fox was good, but he was still stoppable by several characters. Not true for Snake in Brawl.
(Evidence as sited by tournaments ranging from Brawls release to today and videos on youtube and other places)
Combos:(Where are they?)
In melee, there was a fair amount of what we call, hitstun. Hitstun is the time where you cannot break your tumble animation and can only DI. When you get hit, you could smash DI to set your path and then regular DI the rest of the time. So, when you got hit, you could use DI to work your way out, DI tech in order to quickly escape, or you may mess up and DI yourself into more of the combo. So, the proper use of DI could hurt or hinder you, and it was hard to figure out where you needed to DI on some attacks because of the direction they sent you OR the subsequent move that might follow.
On the giving end, you needed to keep hitting the person. By adding a hit you, of course, add more hitstun. By keeping the person trapped in the stun of your moves, you could keep racking up damage or keep them off the stage. This is key for many people. In order to do that though, it was helpful to use some of the games own engine against itself as well as things programmed in. One of these is L-canceling. Just before you hit the ground, you could tap the shield button to remove half the lag of the move you are doing so that you could get back to move again. Simple, efficient.
One of the most popular exploits of the game was Wavedashing. The game gave physics to each character. All of them had there own fall speed, friction, and weight. Some characters were floaty, sticky, and heavy while others were fast, slippery, and light. Each character was very unique, even the "clones," as they are called. So, by air dodging into the ground, you could slide across the ground from a standing position and could do any attack from there. Very good move. By combining things like L-canceling and wavedashing, it allowed a lot of characters to speed up attacks so that they could effectively combo. Through use of proper DI, you could escape them, but you had to learn how to do it right.
In Brawl, however, there are very little techniques you can use to increase your mobility and, therefore, combo-ability. Most characters don't stand a chance at doing any more than three hits in a row, even with the person breaking out of their hitstun. The only way to continuously hit someone is to have them DI right back to you every time. You can even air dodge out of your hitstun now, making it even harder to land a hit on anyone, usually leading to your own punishment for attempting. The lack of mobility, slowness, and low hitstun in this game makes it near impossible to do any kind of combo, ever. The only semblance to a combo that you can get is a chain grab, which there seems to be way too much of in this game. Impossible to break out of, and incredibly easy to pull off. That's not a good mechanic.
Speed:(evidentially important for exciting games...)
As everyone can tell, Melee is a much faster game. Just the movement speed of the characters alone is enough to show that. Then, on top of that, there are those physics engine exploits that increase the speed and agility of many characters. By allowing people to advance quickly and react fast makes the game not only interesting to watch, but amazing to play. The fast characters had an obvious advantage over the others, but, at least, the exploits allowed slower or mid-speed characters to keep up with the faster ones, even if the faster ones used the exploits too. Going as fast as you could was a great mind-game, a way to keep yourself on your toes, and, in general, was good for dodging.
Obviously, Brawl is much slower. They reduced the speed of character movement and it shows. Games take longer now, just because of that. On top of the general movement speed lowered, there are practically no tactics that you can employ to make your character go faster. There may be a few impractical ones (Like wingdashing, or using the crawl animation quickly), but nothing notable. This means that slow characters are slow, and that's the final word. There is now way to reduce your lag, so your slow moves are slow. You cannot change that in Brawl.
Items: (still suck)
Just like in melee, items are either overpowered, or worthless. The only difference in Brawl is the inclusion of Final Smashes. This was a cool and captivating idea at first, but, after seeing the application, it is horribly unbalanced. Certain characters have utterly worthless finals while others are instant win buttons. While it may not matter in competitive play, it still irks me.
Infinites: (dividing by zero is NOT fun, trust me)
In melee, the only real infinite combo was Wobbling, discovered and implemented by Wobbles, by timing the ice climbers grab attack and tilts in proper rhythm to achieve an infinite stun lock with damage. That's it. There was the freeze glitch, black hole, and other things, but Wobbling was the only tournament legal one.
In Brawl, they somehow managed to include a variety of infinite moves all over the place. Dedede chain grabbing is probably the most popular. All you need to do is down throw and grab again. There's the grab/release move on Ness and Lucas with a few characters. You can stun lock someone with Diddy's Bananas. And the list goes on. If you play on the wrong levels, you will find yourself overpowered by some moves faster than you can wish you had wavedashing to move away. It's a problem that is going to cripple a lot of characters and will alienate those slow characters even further.
Marth: (six years of development and he's still broken)
I hate him, still.
Samus: (Intergalactic bounty hunter and hero)
Severely nerfed and has problems killing anything now. Great >_>
New: (It's shiny and new and everyone loves it)
Brawl is currently the more popular game. It's nearly impossible to find a melee tournament anywhere, especially one that's not running Brawl mainly or in the background. While there are a lot of people who still want to play melee, (even before the wave of new people yelled at us, "Shut up and go back to melee then.") no tournament holder seems interested in running one because there aren't enough people locally who support it. I'm organizing one myself, but am catching a bit of anger from people in my area for not running Brawl. It's not fair to people who don't recognize Brawl as their game.
Its also new that there aren't a lot of things that we can call "advanced." There really isn't a way to separate pros from scrubs anymore. The only people you are assured to beat are absolutely new to the game, after they learn who a good character is, you can beat anyone who isn't playing a better character than you. It's very limiting and it may be due in part to the lack of experience by anyone. It may get better, but I highly doubt it based off of what I've seen so far.
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Hopefully that's everything I can think of, but I doubt it. I'm hungry, so I'm going to go get something to eat and come back. if I think more things, someone responds to this, or w/e, then I'll post more.
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tl;dr
In melee, the better person wins; this is not true in Brawl.
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