Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[LouisLeGros]

Yes but they should be. In stead of all the, "Whats your favorite Song" threads, Pro-Brawlers should be addressing the fact that their game may not in fact be good enough to take over for Melee. In stead of just saying "Just get over it and move on" you should take the time to prove that we SHOULD move on, that Brawl is actually worth it.

especially since this forum is sort of the center of competitive smash

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I don't see why the pro-Brawl crowd should hold themselves back just because a few people want to keep playing Melee...

 

[LouisLeGros]

It seems like the pro-brawl crowd is trying to hijack the competitive scene.

Most competitive players agree that melee is a better competitive game and want it to remain the focus of competitive play.

This creates a conflict of interests which looks like it will harm the competitive smash scene either way it goes.

 

[thesage]

It seems like the pro-brawl crowd is trying to hijack the competitive scene.

Most competitive players agree that melee is a better competitive game and want it to remain the focus of competitive play.

This creates a conflict of interests which looks like it will harm the competitive smash scene either way it goes.

I think it's more like everybody wants to be able to play brawl so that when it becomes competitive after some interesting stuff is discovered about it they can be good at it. People just have hope that it'll happen. If it doesn't by the end of the year, ssbm will be at tournaments.

Honestly, I would've preferred melee without wd and l-cancel and online with the new characters (but the melee physics) so we could combo more. Brawl matches are very boring to watch.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Melee looks pretty **** un-competitive next to games like Street Fighter, but we still went ahead and did it... how is Brawl any different?

Can we focus on tactics yet?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lol, there is no "trying to hijack" the competitive scene. Brawl swiped the competitive scene from Melee when the game was released.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I think it's more like everybody wants to be able to play brawl so that when it becomes competitive after some interesting stuff is discovered about it they can be good at it. People just have hope that it'll happen. If it doesn't by the end of the year, ssbm will be at tournaments.

Honestly, I would've preferred melee without wd and l-cancel and online with the new characters (but the melee physics) so we could combo more. Brawl matches are very boring to watch.

I hope you are right because so far it doesn't look too good for Brawl.

I don't have anything against Wavedashing though, and I'm huge supporter of L canceling.
I don't see lowering the skill ceiling as a good move for competitive play.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

More like, it doesn't look too good for Melee.

*cue dramatic music*

 

[LouisLeGros]

lol, there is no "trying to hijack" the competitive scene. Brawl swiped the competitive scene from Melee when the game was released.

I'd like to see it last. Brawl's online play is too limited to allow competitive play to prosper there like it has in games like Counter-Strike & Starcraft.

High level play is just so limited, the number of options for success and the amount of mind games is laughable when compared to melee.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I think everyone is aware that it's impossible to play at full potential online, mostly due to lag. Online's for fun mostly, unless you live in the same city as the people you wi-fi with. lol

High level play isn't limited at all, not sure where you're getting that from. If you're referring to advanced techs, it's already been acknowledged that most of Brawl's advanced techs are character-specific.

And mindgames aren't really something that can be measured...but the concept remains the same in Brawl.

 

[Geist]

What I think everyone is overlooking is that melee was not intended to be played how it is being played now. It was not intended for the competitive audience that it has accumulated over the years it has been out. After around seven years of melee, it has become a custom, almost religiously for players, and any transition from it can be extremely difficult. After playing melee for so long, we havn't realized the complete evolution it has undertook while it was out.

This is the main problem that most people are having. They are expecting Brawl to be that final product that melee was after all the years it took to become what it is. Now that melee's progress is completely cut short to make way for Brawl, people are still expecting Brawl to continue melee's legacy from exactly where it left off.
Brawl was not made with only competitive players in mind, and thinking that "sakurai has betrayed us" or any related thought concerning the apparent lack of competitiveness is Brawl is just selfish. It was intended for the general audience, so that everyone could enjoy it. Forcing brawl to be completely competitive will completely ruin what it should be( or should have been, assuming we havn't destroyed that already). The game has been out for less than a month, and already people are constantly, persistantly, almost pathetically trying to make it melee, or more like melee, all for the sake of "competitiveness", something Brawl may not have the potential to stand up to in the first place.

Comparing brawl to melee is mandatory. It has to be done. After all, Melee and Brawl are one of the same series. It's only natural for them to be compared. What's happening though, is people are trying to compare the two as if they were the same entity; comparing things like competitiveness and competition, technical aspects, when Brawl was not made for those aspects in the first place, just like melee wasn't. What is happening is that people are trying to pull competitiveness out of a game that was not made for the intent of it. Look at it as desperately attempting to take maple syrup from an oak tree.

Brawl is a great game, and it may or may not have untaped potential to satisfy all of those upset melee veterans. If this untapped potential exists though, it will surely make the game played unlike it was originally created for, exactly what happened to melee.
If I sounded as if I was completely dismissing Brawl for being uncompetitive, or having no chance of being competitive, I wasn't. I'm trying to say that neither melee or brawl was created for competitiveness. We are very fortunate that melee tourned out the way it did. Trying to force Brawl to be something it isn't intended to be, or may not be able to be is ridiculous.

I've gone off on a huge tangent from the original debet topic. Also, I've just realized that above is related to what card said about this whole debate. Instead of looking at what isn't in brawl in retrospect to melee, we should be making Brawl into what it should be, or can be.

Oddly enough, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if all 3 games were hypothetically released in a different order, but still being the exact same games. Do you really think that if brawl came out before melee, that people would just trot over to melee, without a word of complaint, and not do exactly what is happening here, right now? I think everyone would be desperately trying to desperately delve into melee for more ways to make it more like brawl. If you think about it, it all comes down to unwillingness to change.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I think everyone is aware that it's impossible to play at full potential online, mostly due to lag. Online's for fun mostly, unless you live in the same city as the people you wi-fi with. lol

High level play isn't limited at all, not sure where you're getting that from. If you're referring to advanced techs, it's already been acknowledged that most of Brawl's advanced techs are character-specific.

And mindgames aren't really something that can be measured...but the concept remains the same in Brawl.

yes mindgames can't be measured, but you can measure factors that effect mind games.
The options that a player has available to them has a huge effect on mindgames.

The number of effective options in Brawl seems to be very limited. There really aren't many options to do in a spam and camp dominated game.

It isn't 100% certain that the competitive scene will be like that, but a lot of professional smashers see that outcome has happening.

 

[House M.D.]

as this thread degenerates, it reminds of the lack of nuance preponderant in modern politics. when faced with a binary choice such as democrat or republican (in our case melee or brawl), people go crazy. perhaps the answer is

"there is brawl, brawl is like x and there is melee, and melee is like y, and their differences are z, and in passing moral judgments we are careful to specify our criteria and more than anything, to be open to the possibility that we are wrong"

 

[MajinSweet]

I'd like to see it last. Brawl's online play is too limited to allow competitive play to prosper there like it has in games like Counter-Strike & Starcraft.

You can do 1v1, 2v2, FFA, with what ever setting, stages, items, rules you want. What the hell more could you ask for? Voice chat? Oh yeah, voice chat isn't required for competitive play, or even needed really.

High level play is just so limited, the number of options for success and the amount of mind games is laughable when compared to melee.

Could this be any more vague? Do you truly know how "limited" Brawl is? Does anyone really know for sure? Some people have played it at most, what a month? From my experience the game offers a lot of depth, and quite a bit of promise on a competitive scale. The truth is (as most down to earth people have realized) Brawl is going to take Melee's place as the competitive smash game. Many top pros are playing it because its new, fresh and something different than Melee. Tons of new people are going to pour in simply because its a new game, some may like it and will want to play it competitively. If you don't want to play Brawl but, want something competitive to play--stay with Melee. It will probably have its niche of people that don't want to let it go.

 

[Spellman]

"Leave Brawl Alone: Brawl Supporters Never Make Any Good Points Ever"

Now in the 51 65 pages of posts that have accumulated, I have yet to read the entire thing, so I don't know if you're opinions have changed on this, but seriously. There may be a few people who throw the Melee 2.0 bomb, even some who say it's Melee 0.5, but they are not an accurate reflection of the debate, that's more of like a person on the sidelines cheering on the team that they agree with if they don't have anything else to contribute to the debate.

It's fine to feel like competitiveness is not as strong in Melee, but to say no Brawl supporter makes any good points ever is pointless.

That being said, I'd like to think of it this way. Not everyone who plays Melee will like the changes Brawl has made. Many will say that it's less competitive even. The random element that is tripping may be the most controversial element in the game. It may even result in the best players losing a few matches in their careers because of it. However, if you're a much better player (rather than just a little bit better than the next guy), you will win matches anyways. That means taking less hits and making more, and avoiding the possibility of tripping whenever possible.

I think tripping will be one of the most unwelcomed parts of the game for all time, but that doesn't make it less competitive. That means you just don't like it. For good reason, it's just more to think and stress about. In Melee, tournaments are as close to being sports as video games can be. As many of the random elements have been removed as possible, and arguably the most neutral stages are played. In Brawl, the same measures will be taken, but obviously not all of them can be, so what you get is a different type of game. It's not quite a game of luck but it's not quite a sport if there is random elements. What you get is a new type of game that still can be as competitive as Melee, in different ways. The game has been simplified so some options have been removed, although new ones have been implemented. Stringing together long combos is unusual so that means you have to succeed in breaking your opponent again and again rather than only a few times a match. It's not less or more competitive, it's just different. Remember that there exists a game based solely on odds and probability exists called Poker, and there is a competitive line of it, and there even exists a champion. He's not champ because he's the luckiest guy in the world, he consistently wins because he knows how to play the odds, and that is a skill in itself. It's not something I'm particularity into, but I do hold a certain amount of respect for it because it's something that I can't quite do myself.

Negative Brawl debaters may just be "people who don't enjoy Brawl", and that's fine. But people are going to compete in this game no matter what so each and every one of us is either in or out. The game is still grapes anyways, it's going to take a while before it develops into a fine wine. But, everyone has different tastes, so maybe that will never matter.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You can do 1v1, 2v2, FFA, with what ever setting, stages, items, rules you want. What the hell more could you ask for? Voice chat? Oh yeah, voice chat isn't required for competitive play, or even needed really.

How about less lag? The lag makes competitive play impossible.

Edit: Also, I'll give an example of why Brawl is broken if someone correctly answers this question. Why was Temple banned in Melee? Anyone?

 

[LouisLeGros]

You can do 1v1, 2v2, FFA, with what ever setting, stages, items, rules you want. What the hell more could you ask for? Voice chat? Oh yeah, voice chat isn't required for competitive play, or even needed really.

There is no ladder, there is no communication, there is no match making, a lot of options are limited to people who have wii friend codes for each other, and the online play still can't compare to local play.

Could this be any more vague? Do you truly know how "limited" Brawl is? Does anyone really know for sure? Some people have played it at most, what a month? From my experience the game offers a lot of depth, and quite a bit of promise on a competitive scale. The truth is (as most down to earth people have realized) Brawl is going to take Melee's place as the competitive smash game. Many top pros are playing it because its new, fresh and something different than Melee. Tons of new people are going to pour in simply because its a new game, some may like it and will want to play it competitively. If you don't want to play Brawl but, want something competitive to play--stay with Melee. It will probably have its niche of people that don't want to let it go.

Brawl is limited for many reason, many of which have been discussed at great length in this very thread.

The approach game has been horribly gimped and has fewer options then in melee.
The defender has been buffed and is now allowed to spam more effectively then ever.

Now in Brawl if the approacher even manages to succeed it is to little avail. They can't do much more combos.

With edge guarding auto sweat spotting has taken away a lot from the game when compared to melee. Throw in the new air dodging, buffed recoveries and floaty characters then there really aren't even many reason to attempt to edge guard anymore with some characters.

Your opponent messes up? Well you can't really do much to punish them. If a player screwed up in melee at a high level of play then they were guaranteed to regret it.

 

[MajinSweet]

How about less lag? The lag makes competitive play impossible.

Impossible? No. I've done it, its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I've already played games where it feels lagless. Of course there is lag, but you can almost not even tell.

Edit: Also, I'll give an example of why Brawl is broken if someone correctly answers this question. Why was Temple banned in Melee? Anyone?

Camping isn't broken in Brawl.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Impossible? No. I've done it, its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I've already played games where it feels lagless. Of course there is lag, but you can almost not even tell.



Camping isn't broken in Brawl.

Yeah but every match isn't going to be "nearly lagless" and even the ones that are can't be played at top level.

And you didn't answer my question.

 

[MajinSweet]

There is no ladder, there is no communication, there is no match making, a lot of options are limited to people who have wii friend codes for each other, and the online play still can't compare to local play.

If there was an online ladder no one actually serious about competitive play would bother using it. Nintendo simply can't be a watch dog and stop every person from abusing it. People always find a way to "rank up" or cheat the system.

Brawl is limited for many reason, many of which have been discussed at great length in this very thread.

The approach game has been horribly gimped and has fewer options then in melee.
The defender has been buffed and is now allowed to spam more effectively then ever.

Some characters have an even better approach game than some Melee characters did, and the new air dodging makes projectile spam not nearly as effective, especially at long range.

Now in Brawl if the approacher even manages to succeed it is to little avail. They can't do much more combos.

Just because it isn't a "combo" doesn't mean you can't hit them. There are plenty of ways to follow up on a hit, put your opponent into a bad situation and punish.

With edge guarding auto sweat spotting has taken away a lot from the game when compared to melee. Throw in the new air dodging, buffed recoveries and floaty characters then there really aren't even many reason to attempt to edge guard anymore with some characters.

Wow, is this a joke? Edge guarding game is simply different than Melee and I find it has much more depth than Melee's.

Your opponent messes up? Well you can't really do much to punish them. If a player screwed up in melee at a high level of play then they were guaranteed to regret it.

Exactly, at a "high level of play", that doesn't exist yet for Brawl, but it will.

 

[Leth]

Woah, 66 pages. Has anyone tried to demonstrate this 'gimped approach game' thing in video form? As in, an offensive player trying again and again with every possible approach to get a hit in on a defensive one, who just stands still and owns him every time? I've watched a lot of 'high level' brawl matches and, while I can see where you're coming from, it never seems to actually work like that.

 

[MajinSweet]

Yeah but every match isn't going to be "nearly lagless" and even the ones that are can't be played at top level.

Your point? People have to deal with it. If you didn't know, other games have had online tourneys--with money on the line. Each opposing side has to deal with the exact same lag. Is in real life tourney superior? Of course, but not everyone can travel so much. Online is very helpful in that case.

And you didn't answer my question.

I may as well have, I already know what your trying to say.

 

[Spellman]

Woah, 66 pages. Has anyone tried to demonstrate this 'gimped approach game' thing in video form? As in, an offensive player trying again and again with every possible approach to get a hit in on a defensive one, who just stands still and owns him every time? I've watched a lot of 'high level' brawl matches and, while I can see where you're coming from, it never seems to actually work like that.

Yeah, I really gotta see this to believe it, I've gotta say I have zero problem with this anymore. Once you find ways around a defensive player, it just feels natural to do it to them again and again. Split second defensive timing is the only way that it works, and that's just part of the game flow. You can't just stand there and defend, that's for sure, not if you're playing with a good offensive player.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I may as well have, I already know what your trying to say.

Then tell me what I mean.

 

[LouisLeGros]

If there was an online ladder no one actually serious about competitive play would bother using it. Nintendo simply can't be a watch dog and stop every person from abusing it. People always find a way to "rank up" or cheat the system.

The most important point there was communication.
Communication leads to organization and it is organization that allows for competitive play to prosper. This forum is proof of that.


edit:
I'm going to bed, I hope Pink continues on with the discussion because I enjoy reading his posts and his contributions to this thread.

 

[MajinSweet]

Then tell me what I mean.

Ok.

Also, I'll give an example of why Brawl is broken if someone correctly answers this question. Why was Temple banned in Melee? Anyone?

Because Fox can run away and Laser and the only way to beat him is to use Fox, or maybe a good Captain Falcon.

What I believe your response will be something like...

A few characters in Brawl can camp really well, and those that can't will be unplayable and the whole game will degenerate into projectile spam camping vs projectile spam camping.

What I respond with...

Camping isn't broken in Brawl.

The most important point there was communication. Communication leads to organization and it is organization that allows for competitive play to prosper. This forum is proof of that.

Yeah, and this forum can be used in conjunction with the online, and unless you didn't notice it already has. Seems to be working just fine. And even without this site, jeez you could just use AIM or something.

 

[Leth]

Yeah, I really gotta see this to believe it, I've gotta say I have zero problem with this anymore. Once you find ways around a defensive player, it just feels natural to do it to them again and again. Split second defensive timing is the only way that it works, and that's just part of the game flow. You can't just stand there and defend, that's for sure, not if you're playing with a good offensive player.

But isn't that what [main] argument against brawl is? That campy, projectile spammy players can just stand there and defend?

To be honest, I've had less problems with campy players in brawl than in melee. We don't have anything as nasty the old falco laser storm.

Some characters have an even better approach game than some Melee characters did, and the new air dodging makes projectile spam not nearly as effective, especially at long range.

QFT. After playing the game, I'm kinda confused at what all the fuss is about. I'd really like to see some vids that clearly demonstrate the competitive flaws people are talking about.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ok.



Because Fox can run away and Laser and the only way to beat him is to use Fox, or maybe a good Captain Falcon.

What I believe your response will be something like...

A few characters in Brawl can camp really well, and those that can't will be unplayable and the whole game will degenerate into projectile spam camping vs projectile spam camping.

What I respond with...

Camping isn't broken in Brawl.



Yeah, and this forum can be used in conjunction with the online, and unless you didn't notice it already has. Seems to be working just fine. And even without this site, jeez you could just use AIM or something.

Ooooh, so close. No, the game can't completely degenerate into spam camping, but a huge supply of the neutral stages in Brawl make it far too easy for characters to spam, most notably with Toon Link.

 

[MajinSweet]

QFT. After playing the game, I'm kinda confused at what all the fuss is about. I'd really like to see some vids that clearly demonstrate the competitive flaws people are talking about.

To be frank, I think a lot of people are still playing Brawl like Melee and getting punished for it. Like fast falling aerials only to get shield grabbed. Not using the increased floatyness to space better. Or simply not knowing what characters and attacks are good against campers.

 

[MajinSweet]

Ooooh, so close. No, the game can't completely degenerate into spam camping, but a huge supply of the neutral stages in Brawl make it far too easy for characters to spam, most notably with Toon Link.

Then they shouldn't be a "neutral stage", ya know--if they give one type of character a large and distinct advantage.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Then they shouldn't be a "neutral stage", ya know--if they give one type of character a large and distinct advantage.

Got it. Only FD then.

 

[MajinSweet]

Got it. Only FD then.

Actually, I was suggesting FD NOT be a neutral stage. Yeah you heard that right. We shouldn't call it neutral just because its plain and it was neutral in Melee. Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, and Pokemon Stadium all look okay to me though,

 

[Mikezor]

I wasn't going to say this originally, but I'm in a bad mood anyway, and I feel it's right. Lemme apologize beforehand if I'm taking it out on you.

If you have no patience for reading on the internet, I'm gonna get this out of the way now, so that you can leave and get back to brawl. If you want the short version, just read this-

GET-OVER-IT

Think back to all of the melee vs brawl threads you've read. Notice anything? They're almost all created by pro melee people right? Why do you think that is? Well, let me let you in on a little secret that none of the melee elitists seem to get.

NO ONE WHO IS PRO BRAWL WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
THAT, my friend, is why you rarely get a good point from brawl supporters. I mean, look around at the brawl boards. Do you see us making threads like "Brawl is 10 times better than Melee ever was"? NO. We're talking about brawl. That's what the Brawl boards are for. But the Melee elitists seem to want to come onto the boards and whine about "Brawl isn't as competitive as melee!" and, "What was Sakurai thinking?"

And that's what it is- whining. I don't care if it's from a random casual or a genuine pro, it's still whining. And that is what you are doing, whining. Very intelligent whining, but whining. You claim to have started this topic to (is this right?) define the difference between competitive and competition? Yeah, I don't believe that for a second. I think you're just another guy who had their unrealistic expectations for brawl failed and wants to complain.

And how long are you going to keep this up? Are you still going to be talking about how much more competitive melee was 1 year from now? 3 years? 5 years? It's better to just bring this to a stop now.

Now, what I want you to do is forget about melee momentarily and ask yourselves this question- "Will I enjoy playing brawl competitively?"

If you answered yes, well there you go. It's time to move on for you. You can start training right now. Hell, help with the search for AT's, if you want more depth.

If you answered no, well, the melee boards are still up, and I'm assuming your copy still works? Go to it!

Just keep you whining off this board.

This post was good.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Actually, I was suggesting FD NOT be a neutral stage. Yeah you heard that right. We shouldn't call it neutral just because its plain and it was neutral in Melee. Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, and Pokemon Stadium all look okay to me though,

Well, all those stages give just as much advantage as FD, if not more. FD is actually less spam friendly than it was in Melee due to the reduced size. Platforms now have to be taken into account as well as Toon Link is not restricted from spamming from directly above and his high jumps, good air control and the new air dodge system combined with the extra hight of platforms can make it far more difficult for the few characters who CAN deal with him.

 

[DRaGZ]

as this thread degenerates, it reminds of the lack of nuance preponderant in modern politics. when faced with a binary choice such as democrat or republican (in our case melee or brawl), people go crazy. perhaps the answer is

"there is brawl, brawl is like x and there is melee, and melee is like y, and their differences are z, and in passing moral judgments we are careful to specify our criteria and more than anything, to be open to the possibility that we are wrong"

I see this all too often...both in real life and on the Internet.

 

[MajinSweet]

Well, all those stages give just as much advantage as FD, if not more. FD is actually less spam friendly than it was in Melee due to the reduced size. Platforms now have to be taken into account as well as Toon Link is not restricted from spamming from directly above and his high jumps, good air control and the new air dodge system combined with the extra hight of platforms can make it far more difficult for the few characters who CAN deal with him.

It may be smaller, but due to Brawls physics it feels larger, and thats where the problem arises from. And personally, I see a few good characters being able to abuse FD's long plain and many characters that can abuse platforms. A neutral stage is supposed to be as fair as it can to the whole roster.

 

[DRaGZ]

Ok.



Because Fox can run away and Laser and the only way to beat him is to use Fox, or maybe a good Captain Falcon.

What I believe your response will be something like...

A few characters in Brawl can camp really well, and those that can't will be unplayable and the whole game will degenerate into projectile spam camping vs projectile spam camping.

What I respond with...

Camping isn't broken in Brawl.



Yeah, and this forum can be used in conjunction with the online, and unless you didn't notice it already has. Seems to be working just fine. And even without this site, jeez you could just use AIM or something.

I agree. Camping certainly is not broken in Brawl. I've found that R.O.B. or Fox is a good counterpick against Toon Link for camping, and once they're in and they keep enough pressure it's difficult for Toon Link to start camping again (then, of course, you must deal with his absurdly powerful offensive game, but R.O.B. handles that jut fine ^_^).

If my own anecdotes are worth anything, I've found that aggressive Toon Links (I've been playing a really good one, he told me he goes by the name EDKT on these boards, I dunno) at least kill much FASTER than campy Toon Links. And when he reverted to a campy style, he won far less often against my R.O.B. But when he remained aggressive, I found it much more difficult to fight back.

I'll admit, camping definitely is a powerful tactic, and a lot of characters can revert to it. In particular, I know R.O.B. works very well against DeDeDe by being very campy. It most certainly isn't the most reliable way of winning, though. An extremely offensive Toon Link works as well, if not better, than a campy Toon Link simply because it's so easy to apply a great deal of pressure with his absurdly fast and powerful aerials. Plus, a purely campy R.O.B. fares very poorly against any kind of Toon Link; it requires camping and waiting for an opening with a careful projectile and tilt game and then pursuing like crazy once Toon Link is spiraling out of control.

Also, the friend code system is ********, but I've found at least two reliable ways of finding people to play: the Friend Finder on these boards and the Brawl application on facebook. They're not exactly the greatest players on facebook, but the people I've been playing on these boards tend to at least have really tight gameplay.

 

[Konuk]

Is it becuase all the "techinques" where cut out in this game cuase i see it kinda pointless brawl is just a slower melee and more equal in fighting. Melee's old just play brawl and forget about what was left out once that happens everythng will be cool.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I agree. Camping certainly is not broken in Brawl. I've found that R.O.B. or Fox is a good counterpick against Toon Link for camping, and once they're in and they keep enough pressure it's difficult for Toon Link to start camping again (then, of course, you must deal with his absurdly powerful offensive game, but R.O.B. handles that jut fine ^_^).

But camping definitely is a powerful tactic, and a lot of characters can revert to it. It most certainly isn't the most reliable way of winning, though. An extremely offensive Toon Link works as well, if not better, than a campy Toon Link simply because it's so easy to apply a great deal of pressure with his absurdly fast and powerful aerials.

But how do you deal with a Toon Link who knows when to spam AND when to be offensive?

Toon Link has the potential to be unbeatable if played properly and that wouldn't be true if it weren't for the broken game mechanics. Toon Links defensive/spam game is no better than Y. Link's in Melee, but all the changes made to Brawl just made him a monster in the spam game. However he was also designed to be one of the best offensive characters, and as such makes him one of the most over powered characters in the history of smash. Now, its not like other games don't have broken characters(Akuma says hi) however this is one of the first times ever that the game mechanics make a character too good rather than just poor character design(seriously, someone at capcom knew what they were doing when they made Akuma, they just did it anyways)

 

[MajinSweet]

But how do you deal with a Toon Link who knows when to spam AND when to be offensive?

Toon Link has the potential to be unbeatable if played properly and that wouldn't be true if it weren't for the broken game mechanics. Toon Links defensive/spam game is no better than Y. Link's in Melee, but all the changes made to Brawl just made him a monster in the spam game. However he was also designed to be one of the best offensive characters, and as such makes him one of the most over powered characters in the history of smash. Now, its not like other games don't have broken characters(Akuma says hi) however this is one of the first times ever that the game mechanics make a character too good rather than just poor character design(seriously, someone at capcom knew what they were doing when they made Akuma, they just did it anyways)

Toon Links good, but he isn't that good. And from what I can tell, most people don't even think he is the best character let alone potentially "unbeatable".