SBR Weekly character Discussion: Ike

[comboking]

I'm gonna go with... no? If you werent talking about fludding a recovery what the hell were you talking about?

The matchup against Mario?

 

[Mith_]

You can DI upwards to give yourself more height to drift back towards the stage and aether instead of leaving yourself wide open for using quick draw. You don't wanna get into this discussion with me.

When your quick draw gets caped you go into fall special.
There's not anything to talk about really.
If I could Aether I'm sure I would have and I would have never posted.

edit: lemme clarify.

Me = Ike noob ( i always play with the character from weekly character discussion just to do it)
Opponent= Mario so he could cape me for lulz.

I QD Mario we are both still on the level.
I get caped.
Instead of going in the right direction I go right off of the level.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If I could Aether I'm sure I would have and I would have never posted.

Just push your control stick up and ten hit B. It takes lots of pratice I still can't do it but once you can you'll do much better.


What I think you meant was that aether wouldn't have reached but this isn't actually true. If you can reach the ledge with QD you can reach it with aether.

 

[Mith_]

I couldn't Aether because I was in fall special lol.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You where supposed to aether instead of using QD. I honestly can't believe you didn't figure that out from what we told you.

 

[comboking]

He does not play ike he did this for fun!!!!!!
The match was probably before we told him not to use QD

 

[Mith_]

I didn't use it for recovery i used it as a tech chase
knocked him down. he got up. i qd'd and got roflcaped.

 

[comboking]

LOL that sucks

 

[Rykoshet]

doesn't make sense, QD stops at the end of a stage when you're grounded...

 

[comboking]

QD Ryko QD not aether. you can techchase with it. You should know that.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

QD also stops at the edge of the stage are you stupid?

 

[Rykoshet]

wow I made a typo, but using half a ****ing brain would have told you that I obviously meant QD since aether doesnt travel horizontally and obviously would not stop at the end of the stage if you meant to go past it from a grounded position on activation.

 

[comboking]

he would not fly off if he was caped towards the center of the stage. What stage was it btw.

 

[Rykoshet]

he wont fly off regardless, doofus

 

[comboking]

If he did an aerial QD

 

[Rykoshet]

Who the hell would do that unless they were ********?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

then he wouldn't be tech chasing.

and that.

 

[comboking]

oh good point I over looked that

 

[mimic_king]

You haven’t mentioned his range at all. This is Ike lives and dies for: Spacing. His bad matchups aren’t bad just because he’s slower, but because his approaches even when perfectly spaced get easily punished.

Oh yeah. But on a positive side, he has a great range. With a super mushroom, he is god. Unfortunately, I banned items at my house. Sucks for those Ike players. I don't play Ike, so I am happy. I hate items.

 

[comboking]

Oh yeah. But on a positive side, he has a great range. With a super mushroom, he is god. Unfortunately, I banned items at my house. Sucks for those Ike players. I don't play Ike, so I am happy. I hate items.

Ike only
3 stock
FD only
AND MEGA MUSHROOMS

new tourney rules

 

[mimic_king]

Agreed .

 

[comboking]

pleasure doing business with you!

 

[Mith_]

Who the hell would do that unless they were ********?

lol yea ur right it was aerial.
I was thinking about Falco's over+B. IAP gets less landing lag so I did that with quick draw.
and no im not ******** 0.o

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

if your on the same train of thought at CK you are ******** sorry but its true. Maybe its just your Ike thats ******** rather than your brain like him.

 

[Mith_]

Yes sorry my Ike is ********.
I promise I will try to not be one of those people who choose Ike because they played Roy in Melee.
I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

[Sosuke]

Holy crap, combokig posts a lot.
And thats coming from me. >_>

So yeah...Ike....
fun stuff.

ike is the best in teams because he fights for his friends

IT'S SO OBVIOUS.

This had to be quoted.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Holy crap, combokig posts a lot.
And thats coming from me. >_>

So yeah...Ike....
fun stuff.

This had to be quoted.

1. Yeah, we kind of tend to ignore CK. He's the village idiot. Arturo's the resident inane ranter.
2. Yes, Ike is very fun.
3. Of course you had to. It's true, after all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol huh? You can actually throw an aerial on both jumps heading away from the stage and still aerial drift back close enough to throw aether and grab the ledge... the thing he's lacking is height, not distance. If you see an air dodge you have the option to wait it out and throw any aerial or to come back and make it back more than safely, even if they sweet spot the ledge. Counter's main and only use honestly comes up here to, countering someone out of their recovery. Ike's edgeguard game is anything but lacking, the only thing remotely annoying about it is that it's incredible diagonal knockback makes actually gimping someone with a weakass or sideways hit not much of an option aside from back air, which will probably flat out kill the mother ****er that close to the deathwall anyway.

I think you missed the point. The point is Ike can't chase **** offstage. Meaning that he has little to no ability to follow up on his opponent after he gets them offstage. It's almost impossible for Ike to capitalize on an opponent's disadvantaged position offstage because once he uses an attack, he has to commit to the entire lag on it offstage, and this reduces his options DRAMATICALLY.

A good opponent will almost always wait for Ike to attempt an edgeguard, then go for a dodge. None of his aerials except B-air are fast enough in terms of startup, and his B-air doesn't have particularly good range, and telegraphs itself simply by the fact that Ike has to face backwards to use it.

See, Ganondorf is a character with worse recovery than Ike, but he clearly has better edgeguarding because he has some ability to chase his opponent offstage. All of Ganon's aerials start and end quickly in the air, meaning that if his opponent tries to air dodge one aerial, he still has a chance to use a jump and try to hit them with another attack after they come out of the dodge. The lower lag on his aerials means he can use them farther away from the stage and still make it back (not to mention using Wizard's Foot to get offstage helps).

 

[Salvo Fenris]

But what you seem to neglect is that if his teammate messes up, he won't give them any sympathy.

 

[metroid1117]

I think you missed the point. The point is Ike can't chase **** offstage. Meaning that he has little to no ability to follow up on his opponent after he gets them offstage. It's almost impossible for Ike to capitalize on an opponent's disadvantaged position offstage because once he uses an attack, he has to commit to the entire lag on it offstage, and this reduces his options DRAMATICALLY.

A good opponent will almost always wait for Ike to attempt an edgeguard, then go for a dodge. None of his aerials except B-air are fast enough in terms of startup, and his B-air doesn't have particularly good range, and telegraphs itself simply by the fact that Ike has to face backwards to use it.

See, Ganondorf is a character with worse recovery than Ike, but he clearly has better edgeguarding because he has some ability to chase his opponent offstage. All of Ganon's aerials start and end quickly in the air, meaning that if his opponent tries to air dodge one aerial, he still has a chance to use a jump and try to hit them with another attack after they come out of the dodge. The lower lag on his aerials means he can use them farther away from the stage and still make it back (not to mention using Wizard's Foot to get offstage helps).

Ike's edgeguarding game is limited compared to characters like MK and Marth; however, Ike doesn't have to go far from the stage in order to gimp some recoveries. Against Ganondorf and Falcon, for example, walk-off FAir is an easy kill. Walk-off DAirs also put a stop to anyone who tries to recover low from the edge; against unsuspecting opponents, BThrow -> walk-off DAir can net you some easy kills (2:49 - end). Even without walk-off DAirs, just jumping out to bait and airdodge before spiking also works, depending on where your opponent is coming from (1:04).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anyone can gimp Ganondorf, Link, Falcon, or a tether fairly easily. Those are bad recoveries. I don't care that you can gimp them easily with Ike. Ike's limited edgeguarding doesn't work 95% of the time on the better recoveries which actually have options outside of that narrow zone in which Ike can edgeguard. I mean seriously, you're not going to actually get many edgeguard KOs or for that matter any hits on the recoveries of characters like Marth or Falco when you are using Ike.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

not edge guard falco? lmao his recovery is like barely better than Ike's. It's very easy to edge guard him he can't even aim for the ledge because he will die from a half charged eruption or spike.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, Falco's SideB goes REALLY fast, and has a huge sweetspot range. You're not going to hit him easily unless you have a good lingering hitbox.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Well, Falco's SideB goes REALLY fast, and has a huge sweetspot range. You're not going to hit him easily unless you have a good lingering hitbox.

You mean like Ike's attacks?

 

[metroid1117]

Anyone can gimp Ganondorf, Link, Falcon, or a tether fairly easily. Those are bad recoveries. I don't care that you can gimp them easily with Ike. Ike's limited edgeguarding doesn't work 95% of the time on the better recoveries which actually have options outside of that narrow zone in which Ike can edgeguard. I mean seriously, you're not going to actually get many edgeguard KOs or for that matter any hits on the recoveries of characters like Marth or Falco when you are using Ike.

Okay, Ganondorf, Link, and Falcon are gimped easily by many characters. However, did you read the rest of my post? It seems as though you are underestimating the power of a walk-off DAir. If an opponent tries to recover from under the stage, they are open for a gimp spike.

Examples of Walk-off DAir gimps:
1:47 (Ness)
2:08 (Lucas)
2:44 (ROB)
0:28 (Marth)
2:24 (Ike)
1:36 (Charizard)
2:52 - end (Bowser)

Those are just some examples that I have performed; I'm sure that Rykoshet (who first proposed walk-off DAir spiking) and others have many more examples that can be shown as well. Yes, smart opponents will catch on and adjust accordingly, but if they try to recover from a predictable angle you can just edgehog them. I'm not denying that Ike's edgeguarding game is limited, but from your first post...

I think you missed the point. The point is Ike can't chase **** offstage. Meaning that he has little to no ability to follow up on his opponent after he gets them offstage. It's almost impossible for Ike to capitalize on an opponent's disadvantaged position offstage because once he uses an attack, he has to commit to the entire lag on it offstage, and this reduces his options DRAMATICALLY.

A good opponent will almost always wait for Ike to attempt an edgeguard, then go for a dodge. None of his aerials except B-air are fast enough in terms of startup, and his B-air doesn't have particularly good range, and telegraphs itself simply by the fact that Ike has to face backwards to use it.

See, Ganondorf is a character with worse recovery than Ike, but he clearly has better edgeguarding because he has some ability to chase his opponent offstage. All of Ganon's aerials start and end quickly in the air, meaning that if his opponent tries to air dodge one aerial, he still has a chance to use a jump and try to hit them with another attack after they come out of the dodge. The lower lag on his aerials means he can use them farther away from the stage and still make it back (not to mention using Wizard's Foot to get offstage helps).

you make it seem as though Ike's only edgeguarding option is BAir, which is clearly not the case.

At Arturito and SaltyKracka: unless you support your statements of "Falco's Illusion is easily edgeguarded" with video examples, I still refuse to believe that Ike, whose hitboxes take a relatively long time to come out, can easily intercept his recovery. If it really is that easy, there should be plenty of evidence.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

don't believe not like I care lol. I've done it and thats all that matters to me if people choose to go on believing I can't gimp them then hurrah for me.

edit: I probably sound like an *** as always in this post but not trying to be one.

edit2: ryko does it in the last stock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdEa39YZBM

ninja link does it right at the start too and at 2 minutes then at 3:20 then with a jab at 4:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syu8DB_bb5c


was going to look for more but I think ninjalink covered it for me.

 

[san.]

Most of the time, Ike can use two aerials offstage before coming back with aether. It's his choice of anything but nair offstage, really. If the opponent dodges, what's stopping the Ike from using another aerial like up air, back air, dair, etc?

On more risky characters, Ike can still attempt to edgeguard close to the edge, along with what metroid1117 Arturito a tried to explain before. Drop down Aether and ledgehop could still be effective if used properly.

 

[mimic_king]

Aether alone make Ike for god tier.

 

[RedPeppers]

Ike and Zelda would have ridiculously good looking kids

amirite?

Most assuredly!

 

[metroid1117]

don't believe not like I care lol. I've done it and thats all that matters to me if people choose to go on believing I can't gimp them then hurrah for me.

edit: I probably sound like an *** as always in this post but not trying to be one.

edit2: ryko does it in the last stock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdEa39YZBM

ninja link does it right at the start too and at 2 minutes then at 3:20 then with a jab at 4:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syu8DB_bb5c


was going to look for more but I think ninjalink covered it for me.

The original demand for video evidence was to show that Falco's Illusion could be easily edgeguarded; in my opinion, "easily edgeguarded" means that every time they are off-stage, it's an opportunity for a gimp (low %) kill, since edgeguarding is defined as keeping your opponent off the stage and edge.

Keeping this in mind, I saw nothing of that sort in Rykoshet's match; when you meant "last stock," did you mean when Rykoshet had 2 stocks and Falco had 1, or when both players had 1 stock? The only time where I saw that he was able to take advantage of Illusion on Falco's last stock was at 3:00 - Falco was DAir'd when he landed from Illusion; it didn't lead to a gimp kill, but rather massive pressure with jabs.

Looking at NinjaLink's matches, I didn't find anything either. In the very beginning, the only thing noticeable was Falco being DAir'd out of Illusion while on-stage; it can hardly be considered a successful edgeguard. 2:00 is indeed an edgeguard, but it doesn't fit my personal definition of "easily edgeguarded"; as stated above, I believe that if someone is easily edgeguarded, they should be killed at low %s; the UAir edgeguard at 2:04 only kills at high %s and serves as a "just go die" edgeguard, not a "die early and cry about it" edgeguard. 3:20 was a great gimp on NinjaLink's part, that is a good example. The jab at 4:05 was good as well, but the jab itself failed to lead to a kill; it does, however, show some potential.

Your original statement, however, is that

not edge guard falco? lmao his recovery is like barely better than Ike's. It's very easy to edge guard him he can't even aim for the ledge because he will die from a half charged eruption or spike.

If it's "very easy" to get Falco with Eruption or spike (DTilt, I presume?), then why didn't you show any examples of people using those attacks, rather than finding examples where the Falco went for the stage and got punished (except for the edgehog example)? I have my doubts on Eruption's viability for an edgeguard, but I know that DTilt just seems unreasonable; when the Falco boards say that side+B's hitbox comes out on frame 17 (and if Sakurai kept Falco+Fox's hitbox properties for side+B the same, then the hitbox should be trailing them while they move), it's very likely that he starts moving before frame 17. DTilt's hitbox, according to Kirk, comes out on frame 16 and stays out until frame 17; you have a leighway of two frames if you want to hit Falco. Unless you can guess where Falco will be (going for the stage vs the edge) and get the timing down to accurate within 1/30th of a second, DTilt probably isn't going to cut it regardless of it's range.