SBR Rules and Ganoncide

[Alopex]

So the SBR official ruleset states that a Bowsercide using the claw will count as a win for Bowser even if it results in a Sudden Death.

I believe we all know that the result of a Bowsercide is decided on the port number.

Bowser wins if his number is lower, they go to sudden death if his number is higher.


So what about Ganon's? It's effected in a similar way.

They go to sudden death if Ganon's number is lower, and Ganon loses if his number is higher.


So Bowser is Win/Draw, and they made it so that it's always Win.

Ganon is Draw/Lose, so does that mean it's always Lose? Or will the sudden death be played through in Ganon's case?

 

[:034:]

Ganondorf always dies first. So, you lose.

I'm more interested in the fact that Norfair and Brinstar are counterpicks. Those are prime Ganondorf stages right there.

 

[Alopex]

If Player 1 is Ganondorf, then the result will be a Sudden Death. They'll die at the same time.
If Ganondorf is Player 2, 3, or 4 against Player 1, then he will always die first.

This is what all my testing has shown. I'm certain I'm not alone and someone else can confirm this.

It's Draw or Lose for Ganon based on port number.


Bowser = Win or Draw = Win in SBR rules.
Ganon = Lose or Draw = Lose in SBR rules?

 

[Jekyll]

I feel they should make a special case for this. I don't think that if you're giving Bowser the best case guaranteed, then it should be the same for Ganon (guaranteed Sudden Death rules). Otherwise, you literally have something as ******** as controller port directly dictating the winner of a match.

I understand a lot more probably went into the decision with Bowser, but the bottom line is that the controller port deciding is just ghey.

 

[gojira345]

Email them. I think it should be a win for Ganon just like Bowser.

 

[Alopex]

There's an e-mail address for the Smash Back Room? I didn't know that. Where can I find it?

 

[Magus420]

There's more to it than simply the controller ports. It also depends how far away you are from the blastzone when you grab them. Depending on the character you're fighting, you can get 2 different outcomes under the same controller port conditions.

It also works differently in sudden death for whatever reason. I forget the exact details, but I remember the higher ported player actually having some sort of advantage in sudden death unlike in the normal match. It was like back in June when I tested it, and it was surprisingly complicated (and poorly handled by the programmers imo). I probably should have wrote it all down after figuring out how it worked, lol.

What I did to test was I created a custom stage that had a gap in the middle, and had the other player stand on the other edge. I was able to consistently get 1 result when fwd-Bing from at ground level, and the other result when fwd-Bing just barely above ground level. This confirmed my earlier theory that when Ganonciding, Ganon is positioned a tiny bit lower than the char he's holding, so depending on the distance from the blastzone when it connects they can either both cross the blastline simultaneously or Ganon instead dies 1 frame before they do.

 

[DRaGZ]

Why not just resolve this issue by setting a standard for what happens when a Ganondorf Ganoncides? Win or lose, at least there would be less confusion about what should be done.

 

[Foxy]

Ganondorf always dies first. So, you lose.

I'm more interested in the fact that Norfair and Brinstar are counterpicks. Those are prime Ganondorf stages right there.

Holy crap, I just saw your sig and I was amazed.

That's my favorite poop scene in the world and you are a god for having it in your sig.

Thank you.

I'm out.

(Just to be on topic, SBR should rule for Bowsercides and Ganoncides to result in the same finish.)

 

[Magus420]

They really shouldn't have even used controller ports to decide anything for it in the first place when not in sudden death.

If Ganon dies 1 frame early obviously the game should have him lose. If they both die simultaneously then the game goes into sudden death to break the tie like it did in Melee.

Not "If they both die simultaneously and the Ganon player happens to have a lower controller port it goes to sudden death... but if the Ganon player has a higher port number he'll simply lose", or whatever unnecessary idiocy it was that they decided to toss in there before it was even needed.


If the initial match ends with a Ganoncide and they both happen to die at the same time, and the sudden death round also ends with another Ganoncide and yet again they both happen to die on the same frame from the Ganoncide, then deciding that very rare instance by controller port really has little impact overall and is what they should have done.

 

[DRaGZ]

I meant the SBR, not the game programmers.

The problem in the game exists, okay. So why not address it in the ruleset instead of leavin' players hangin'?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah I know, but I felt like expressing my distaste for the way it was programmed anyway. =P

 

[Thinkaman]

As ridiculous as this may sound, in the current metagame the obvious solution is to give Ganondorf the benefit of the doubt and give him the win. It really isn't going to make him much better at any competitive level, and if Ganondorf becomes top-tier tomorrow through some amazing development we can always revist the rule.

It should at least be consistent with Bowser if we are going to make a special case for him, to avoid confusion. Kirby, DeDeDe, and Wario are completely different cases though, since they are escapable grabs... I really NEVER see someone die still in the grab.

 

[Metal_Dave]

If they both die at the same time the current rule is the person with lower % wins that's what I understood. Which I'm not even cool with myself it should be a draw, and another match should be played. That's what I think.

 

[Tenki]

Eh, I'd think that the person who initiates the suicide move should win.

 

[Griffard]

I completely agree with you Tenki. Port shouldn't cause the better player to lose.

 

[Jekyll]

...sooo...something needs to be done about this.

I just got back from a Midwest Circuit event in Michigan and (potentially) lost a match in pools against Vidjo because of this. Rather than give Ganon the win(which I don't really expect to happen) or have a 1-stock rematch(like other tourney's I've been to have done) the match was decided on the PERCENTAGE AT THE MOMENT I GRABBED HIM! Seriously?!?!

Magus420, if you can give me more info on what you did to test and the results of it, I'd like to do some additional testing as well. I've never had this move cause a loss for me when I had first controller port. I know that you can alter the angle at which you fall by DIing, which might cause differences in positioning though, and may cause discrepancies.

The fact that Bowser gets an instant win with a move that's also decided by controller port AND is just a much safer move to do, but Ganon gets screwed is just not logical. I'm sure(I hope) that more went into making the Bowser rule than just the fact that deciding by port number is ridiculous. YES, the player being grabbed can counter Bowser's DI if they have less damage, but Bowser can also do this off of the stage for a KO without committing suicide if he misses. Ganon's, on the other hand, has less range and more startup lag. No, the opponent can't DI and escape it, but the only way he can kill with it is off of the edge where he's pretty much dead if it doesn't connect. If opponents don't want to lose the match, then they should play smart and stay away from the edge or just hit Ganon before he grabs them. Most situations where Ganon gets a kill with his over-B, it's just because the opponent was playing carelessly. So why not acknowledge that deciding by controller port or even by random positioning is just ridiculous and come up with a uniform rule, like Bowsers, that addresses the situation fairly.

The back room seriously needs a Ganon main...I think that if there hadn't been a respected Bowser main there fighting for that rule, it wouldn't have turned out that way.

 

[Metal_Dave]

...sooo...something needs to be done about this.

I just got back from a Midwest Circuit event in Michigan and (potentially) lost a match in pools against Vidjo because of this. Rather than give Ganon the win(which I don't really expect to happen) or have a 1-stock rematch(like other tourney's I've been to have done) the match was decided on the PERCENTAGE AT THE MOMENT I GRABBED HIM! Seriously?!?!

Exact same thing happened to me like a month ago against lambchops snake, and then thinking the match would go into a rematch, I was told the same thing that it was decided by % and I got pretty frustrated about it as well. =\

I really also think something needs to be done about this.

 

[PK-ow!]

Come on guys, let's think about this.

The fact that SBR actually made an rule on this at all caught my attention. On the face of it, it seems like rewriting game code, no? My first reaction was "hey! Why no infinite bans, then?"

But of course I put that reaction down and thought about it a bit more.

What the SBR is doing is negating the effect of controller port - something on which we can agree, should not affect gameplay. The key is that they ruled that Bowsercide will always result in X, and that X is a possible outcome of a bowsercide.

If they ruled a bowsercide is a win for Bowser, but that was not actually possible in-game, they would be rewriting the game. Rewriting the game with an appeal to some kind of logic, perhaps (he's on top! WTF?), but rewriting the game is never the use of the right logic. World logic is not supposed to apply; you have to play by the game.

But, as we know, a win for bowser is a possible outcome of bowsercide. Who knows why it couldn't just be designed to always work like this by making the characters move more than 1 frame apart so port order didn't matter. . . (well we do know: Sakurai hates us), but it is in the code, and the ruling is a simple step you can take to undo a problem, to make the game fair to each player (port).

Ganoncide, is either a draw or a loss for Ganon. At this point we have to ask: Why is a bowsercide ruled always a win, rather than always a draw?

... I have to admit that I have no idea why. You'd have to ask the SBR.

If we knew that, we could take the same approach to Ganon. But at this point, there is an inconsistency, as far as I can tell, and I think I'm informed enough to say this inconsistency should get a statement from SBR explaining it. Why does Bowser have *a* ruling - any one at all - while Ganon does not?