Samus Tactics, a Samus strategy thread

[Mars-]

VS Marth

Now I know I might not be good at this matchup, but I know some basics:
Sex kick edge guard- Run or jump off the ledge and sex kick them. Best tactic because they have no DI without their second jump
Out Spacing- space so you don't get hit by forward smash, then when they forward smash, you hit them with yours.
Watch out for grapple and dash attack bait- Marths wavedash can range him well out of your dash attack range, but place him in perfect tipper range. Be careful with dash attacks.
Same with grapple.
Crouch Cancel Fairs- Bait them in, wavedash back, watch them go for a forward air, which is very Crouch cancelable. Forward or down smash, or even down tilt might lead up to a short combo.

Just felt like sharing this with you guys.

Crashmans responce:
running off nair doesn't work vs marth if he saves double jump, he can go waaaay below you then up+b behind and then your'e in a really ****ty situation just waiting to get spiked

i find dash attack to be one of the best approaches vs marth, do it when hes in the air, you'll atleast trade with his fair if not completely beat it out. and its good on the ground too, since it really doesn't matter if you get grabbed.

grab combos=$$$$, dthrow dash attack nair if they DI away(20-60 about), pretty much any move in the game if they DI toward you

and you're right about cc's being great, whenever marth gets carried away with throwing out moves a quick cc dsmash will show him you mean business. doesn't work against marths who know the matchup cause they know not to be on top of you

Also some more stuff from me:

Up air and fair are pretty good combo moves against Marth, infact, all floaty characters. Remember, if they are above you, your best option is up air. This is pretty universal, however some samus players (myself included) sometimes get carried away with sex kicking everything. Fair is a disjointed hitbox, hits up and diagnally from you (Samus's only air attack that does), so use it to your advantage.

 

[sweetooth]

cool. all things that i try to do. need to work on my spacing more though

 

[Cra$hman]

running off nair doesn't work vs marth if he saves double jump, he can go waaaay below you then up+b behind and then your'e in a really ****ty situation just waiting to get spiked

i find dash attack to be one of the best approaches vs marth, do it when hes in the air, you'll atleast trade with his fair if not completely beat it out. and its good on the ground too, since it really doesn't matter if you get grabbed.

grab combos=$$$$, dthrow dash attack nair if they DI away(20-60 about), pretty much any move in the game if they DI toward you

and you're right about cc's being great, whenever marth gets carried away with throwing out moves a quick cc dsmash will show him you mean business. doesn't work against marths who know the matchup cause they know not to be on top of you

 

[Rohins]

Very nice Mars and Cra$h

 

[Levitas]

I know that I'd be more worried about a well spaced bair than a nair when I recover as marth.

Just be careful about playing as the reactive character (like baiting their fsmash to fsmash them or ccing a fair) because when the marth starts seeing your setups, he'll start seeing your openings. Think empty shffl wd back to fsmash if you think he's gonna shffle a fair--suddenly instead of punishing a move, you're eating a sword.

 

[BigRick]

edgehopped nair as an edgeguard? If the Marth is too far to dbl-jump fair you?

 

[Levitas]

They have to be relatively high up for the nair to work, otherwise, the better options are to stay on the edge if they're low and far, or to stand on the edge if they can dbl-jump fair you off the edge to wd on the edge for the edgehog. If after that, they can get back on the stage with an up b (like they were really close with a double jump, things get sketchy. maybe get off an attempted edgehog with a ledgehopped nair? I'm not sure about that one.

Edit: I completely thought it said short-hopped nair as an edgeguard. my bad, And since I came to the same conclusion, I hope it works.

 

[Mars-]

running off nair doesn't work vs marth if he saves double jump, he can go waaaay below you then up+b behind and then your'e in a really ****ty situation just waiting to get spiked

i find dash attack to be one of the best approaches vs marth, do it when hes in the air, you'll atleast trade with his fair if not completely beat it out. and its good on the ground too, since it really doesn't matter if you get grabbed.

grab combos=$$$$, dthrow dash attack nair if they DI away(20-60 about), pretty much any move in the game if they DI toward you

and you're right about cc's being great, whenever marth gets carried away with throwing out moves a quick cc dsmash will show him you mean business. doesn't work against marths who know the matchup cause they know not to be on top of you

What I meant by the sex kick was if they are high, and even if they save their jump and make it back, you still got some extra damage, which can mean the match. But you are right.

Dash attack vs every air attack is good, however a smart marth can just wavedash out of the way if he predicts it. Grabbing doesn't really hurt you as much as what combos he can follow it up with at low percents.

I feel that this was pretty good input so I'm going to add it to my first post.

 

[Bobz]

dont be afraid to just charge up shots all day too, marth has no projectile to beat you on this, and it forces his approach. a lot of times i just release when he gets near, or pop one out and then run attack him.

 

[JettythatSamus]

also, remember that when you cc a fair, trying using a dtilt because if marth l-cancels into a dtilt you wont have time for a dsmash attack

 

[Rat]

Dtilt and Dsmash come out at the same frame. Frame #6 if your interested. I'm not sure what you mean when you say won't have time........

 

[Mars-]

Dtilt and Dsmash come out at the same frame. Frame #6 if your interested. I'm not sure what you mean when you say won't have time........

Yeah, I think he meant:
I can press A faster then I can flick the c stick down.

 

[JettythatSamus]

Idk, it just seemed like whenever marth dtilted after a fair he hit me before i dsmashed him

 

[Takumaru]

*points to mars explanation about Dtilt vs Dsmash* It's true. Another marth tip: WD from a shield is godly in this match. I'm still kind of slow at it but when I pull it off it really helps.

 

[Asian_Flava]

marths uptilt = game over lol

 

[ph00tbag]

dont be afraid to just charge up shots all day too, marth has no projectile to beat you on this, and it forces his approach. a lot of times i just release when he gets near, or pop one out and then run attack him.

I'm fairly sure Marth's sword cuts through the slow-moving and predictable charge shot like a meat cleaver through butter. You might hit with one or two a match, but that's not enough to win, so just charging shots won't be a good strategy. I've wondered about charging a shot to draw an attacker in, shield as they get close, then pull out some kind of appropriate response, but a smart Marth would pressure your shield from outside of Screw Attack range, so I don't know what I'd do in that situation.

 

[Asian_Flava]

I'm fairly sure Marth's sword cuts through the slow-moving and predictable charge shot like a meat cleaver through butter.

Marth's sword cuts threw the charged blast? Probably if timed really really good, but no marth I have ever fought has destroyed the blue ball. Usually they either shield it or they get dom'd by it.

 

[Cra$hman]

marth has no attack that breaks full charge shot

 

[Mars-]

I'm fairly sure Marth's sword cuts through the slow-moving and predictable charge shot like a meat cleaver through butter. You might hit with one or two a match, but that's not enough to win, so just charging shots won't be a good strategy. I've wondered about charging a shot to draw an attacker in, shield as they get close, then pull out some kind of appropriate response, but a smart Marth would pressure your shield from outside of Screw Attack range, so I don't know what I'd do in that situation.

Good luck cutting through a charged shot.

Some more tips:

Learn to sweetspot your Fair. What is the sweet spot you might ask? The sweet spot doesn't do more damage, it simply knocks them in a good position for you. Fairs sweet spot is the last few blast of fire, which hits them up and towards you, so they end up above you. This can be use on fast fallers at about 100% and followed up with an up tilt, or on floaty characters at lower percents and followed up with a shffl'd up air and so on.

 

[Bobz]

charge shots just let you set the pace of the match

it worked just fine against chillin yesterday.

 

[Cra$hman]

hes droppin' names

 

[Mars-]

Charged shots intimidate your opponent lol. They have to be very careful.

If you ever play a ganon, just predict when they are going to jump for an attack, jump at the same time and charged shot. Teach them who is who.

 

[C-PO]

thanks a lot for this. i'll def try to bait unsuspecting marths to fair me, so i can get that dsmash/dtilt off.

 

[Mars-]

Combo with samus, it's possible

Every character can be comboed to a certain point, you just need to watch and think about what move to use.

Think of it this way:
Your opponent is above you, you decide to use a Nair because it has a lot of priority. However, thinking about it like this, you are probably thinking about how it might not have been the best choice. But in a match you will go for a Nair. Why? Because it is your mindset. This is one of the habits you need to get rid of as soon as possible. Many lower level players just throw out attack based on which is more powerful, not focusing on what is the best option. Maybe they are expecting a forward tilt, and rush in after the ftilt would be finished. Instead you use an uptilt, just to throw them off.

Now once you get this down, and learn what attacks to do when, combos are really easy to pull off. 0%-edge guard is very possible with samus, because with her fast movements with wavedashing and long range. Think of her as a DK, but instead of set combos, you choose your moves by how they DI.

Hope this helps.

Contribute, add, Greatest Samus thread EVER.

 

[Asian_Flava]

I agree with you Mars. My cousin does that kind of stuff where he only uses Nair ONLY because he said its the best and he never gets a combo off and he always tries to out prioritze you and never shields, its weird. But he said he only plays to win not to be sexy and that it is all INSTINCT (I tend to call him a fheg for sayin its instint or a nub :S. I hate those typa playas. Winning < Sexyness < Sexy and Winning . This might be totally irrelavent but w/e

 

[Mars-]

I should also add that all this combo talk is useless if you can't get them up in the air. There are many ways to do this:
Dash attack
Dtilt
Utilt
Dthrow
Uthrow
Dair
Sweetspotted Fair

Also, I have been saying so much about up and forward air, I should mention down air is a nice way to keep a combo going because you can quickly follow them down and hit them back up again.

 

[Takumaru]

This may be common knowledge but it's also a mistake I commonly see, save your 2nd jump when you're knocked off the stage. The revoery options you have when you save your second jump when recovering are much larger than a lot of people remember/think. Random charged shot to the face of a marth that's charging his lame Fsmash is sexyness especially when you can use it way out of his range.

 

[Mars-]

Very true, however if you have to use your second jump to survive the knockback, then use it, if you don't, then don't.

Lets get more stuff in here. I would like some upper level players to give some input as well.

 

[Hylian]

Dash Dancing (well..more like fox trotting back and fourth) and quick platform dashes are great ways to get around marth's reach.

Or pivot a ftilt and techchase them if they whiff a fair.

 

[Mars-]

Shields are a great part of the game, but most people don't realize how much options out of their shield they have. An example of this is short hopping out of your shield and using an airial. However, this takes some practice because in order to do this you have to let go of L or R, otherwise your going to grapple.

Another option you have is wavedashing out of your shield, which I'm sure you can add on from here. This is also a good technique for getting through lasers, simply wavedash forward between lasers.

Up b out of shield is another great option, because the start of your up b has invinsibility frames (I think it had 4-5), even has hitboxes when your invinsible.

Shield grabbing is possible, I mainly use it for lag punishing, like if I get hit by peach's dsmash, which also knocks you back, you can then shield grab.

Dodging is a great way to throw off your opponents timing, however, don't over use it.

 

[Hylian]

I don't think people realize how useful ledgedashing into your dsmash or shield is in this, or any match-up. Samus has a very fast ledgedash and if done right it is almost impossible to punish unless they grab you. If the Marth try's to fsmash you should be able to shield in time into up-B or shieldgrab, but sometimes if he does it a little bit too early you can use the invincibility frames from the edge if you are quick and get a free dsmash in. You can kill Marth very easy from this because they pretty much only have 2 recovery paths and your bair outranges all of marth's arieals. If he comes from under you, either ledgehop a nair or lightshield edgehog...or just normal edgehog if you think he will try and sweetspot.

Something fancy you can do is hang on the edge then drop down - use your double jump and then walljump - immediatly lay a bomb and DI so that you land on the stage.

Now the marth will hit the bomb no matter what. If they Up B immediatly after hitting the bomb you can just Fsmash them because they will go WAY to high. If they drop down again you have enough time to wavedash back onto the ledge for and edgehog.

Oh and homing missles are great agasint marth.

 

[C-PO]

What do you guys do when you get stuck on platforms on yoshi's island or battlefield?

 

[ph00tbag]

What do you guys do when you get stuck on platforms on yoshi's island or battlefield?

The best thing is to jump around and stay on the move until you can find an opening to get down. A spontaneous idea is to maybe even get way offstage and go for a sweetspotted ledge grapple.

 

[Rohins]

Something fancy you can do is hang on the edge then drop down - use your double jump and then walljump - immediatly lay a bomb and DI so that you land on the stage.

I love this technique. I know this thread has been focusing vs Marth but this technique works great vs people if they are hanging on a grapple under you as well.

As far as Marth is concerned, I like to use dtilt to uair against them at low %s (0-30). I find most Marths have a hard time DIing it properly. In version 1.0 your uair is nearly inescapable in these cases but in 1.2 (dunno about 1.1) they can smash DI out before the last hit gets in. There are plenty of setups mentioned in this thread to land a dtilt (ccing fairs, wd out of shield when you got fmashed, etc.) so be patient and watch for your opponent's opening.

I forgot the technical term for this, but I think it's pretty easy to do with Samus. You can use your uair to boost yourself on to platforms. Basically, while rising toward a platform do an uair while your body is roughly halfway onto the platform.

This thread is pretty awesome. Great discussion guys.

 

[ph00tbag]

I find most Marths have a hard time DIing it properly. In version 1.0 your uair is nearly inescapable in these cases but in 1.2 (dunno about 1.1) they can smash DI out before the last hit gets in.

I don't even necessarily like getting the last hit in on a uair. They don't get knocked as far so sometimes it's easier to combo them.

 

[Takumaru]

The best thing is to jump around and stay on the move until you can find an opening to get down. A spontaneous idea is to maybe even get way offstage and go for a sweetspotted ledge grapple.

Would shield dropping be any help? I find that marth ***** me once I hit a platform and I've been trying to WD off but that doesn't seem to be helping much.

 

[Mars-]

Some simple DI facts for today, maximum DI is easily obtainable, once you know how to. First of all, we need to look at why people like Ken and azen can survive things that most people can't. Smash DI helps, but just DIing against the attack doesn't do all the work. Plain and simple:
If you get hit left- DI Up and right.
If you get hit right- DI Up and left
If you get hit up- DI down and left or right, away from the your opponent.

I have also been testing double stick DIing, it seems to work.
Basicly this is where you DI with your Control Stick, and C-stick. Now don't quote me on this, but I heard Co_and_Me mention it, and I decided to test it out. It seems to work, because I believe your c-stick gives you stronger DI.

Now I think this should be mentioned, as you can get off to a quick start doing this. When you start the match, you begin off the ground. You can drop through the platforms for up airs, waveland, second jump to missile, anything, but you got to get the timing down, because you hit the ground in a split second.

As for the guy asking about the platform things on battle field, I like to run off and fast fall a Bair or Fair.

Also I would like to add, this started as a Samus vs Marth thread, but I decided to make it universal because of the response it was getting.

 

[Hylian]

The thing about dual stick DI is that it let's you CC while also DI'ing normally at the same time.

Try this. Dsmash then keep holding the C-stick down. You can walk around but the game will count you as crouch cancling anyways...If someone hit's you the game will think you are crouching because you are holding the C-stick down. Which means you can also use the control stick at the same time to DI normally and get the effects of a CC and normal good DI at the same time.

Also, I don't remember if this is correct, but IIRC then the c-stick has Auto-Smash DI properties..so if you get hit while holding the c-stick you will automatically smash DI that way.

 

[Mars-]

The thing about dual stick DI is that it let's you CC while also DI'ing normally at the same time.

Try this. Dsmash then keep holding the C-stick down. You can walk around but the game will count you as crouch cancling anyways...If someone hit's you the game will think you are crouching because you are holding the C-stick down. Which means you can also use the control stick at the same time to DI normally and get the effects of a CC and normal good DI at the same time.

Also, I don't remember if this is correct, but IIRC then the c-stick has Auto-Smash DI properties..so if you get hit while holding the c-stick you will automatically smash DI that way.

I beleive this applies for the control stick as well, but thanks for clearing up the rest.

Where is HugS, Aftermath, watty?

 

[Aftermath]

The cstick DI is probably not a good way to go. The smash DI is only half of a normal smash DI, so it won't save you from anything that isn't a multi-weak-hit attack (as such, it's most useful for getting out of Fox's drill and the like), and it has a huge downside. When you cstick DI something, you don't get any regular DI because both regular DI and ASDI occur on the same frame, and the cstick has priority over the control stick.

Using it to CC is interesting, but how do you hold down the cstick and keep playing normally Hylian? I know you hold your control stick differently so is there a trick to the cstick thing?

Anyway, the only other time I'd recommend cstick DI is when you need to edgetech, since in a situation like that, regular DI doesn't make a big difference, you just use the small smash DI boost to get a bit closer to the edge to tech.


Rohins - In 1.1 and 1.2, where they added hitfreeze to attacks that do <1%, people can DI out of the uair and upB, so while effective, you do have to chase a bit more with it. Also, at the lower percents, I've found that even if you hit them with the last hit of the uair, you can start a fair and hit them just before you land, resetting the combo and letting you do another uair, although you usually can't combo out of this one if they DI correctly.


One piece of advice I'd like to add to this thread that hasn't been brought up really is that as much as you're going for combos and whatnot, it's a super important skill to learn to know when your combo is over. It sounds simple, but knowing when to simply stop a combo and retreat at the right time is hard to actually get down and do in the middle of serious matches. It's a combination of predicting how your opponent reacts, knowing how quickly you can do something (knowing your own technical limitations and weaknesses), and the range of each character's moves, along with how fast their character can break out of stuff. I know I find myself trying to combo too many times and getting punished,m and see other people (not just Samus) trying to combo a character that recovers quickly (Doc/Marth/Peach/etc.) and being punished.

Also, Mars, any chance of you changing your avatar? It's sort of confusing