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Samus Hitboxes and Frame Data

Discussion in 'Samus' started by standardtoaster, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. standardtoaster

    standardtoaster
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    Tubacabra

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    Location:
    Eau Claire, Wisconsin
    Credits to SuperDoodleMan for most of the frame data.
    Images compiled by Stratocaster. Images edited by standardtoaster.
    "Hitbox System" format, method, and organization developed by Stratocaster.
    All animated GIF's are at 1/3rd game speed.


    Punch
    [​IMG]
    Total: 17
    Hit: 3-4

    Hit lag: 3
    Shield stun: 6
    Advantage: -11
    Swing advantage: -6

    Window of the swing: 3-25
    Swing starts: 12
    -------------------------------------
    Swing
    [​IMG]
    Total: 30
    Hit: 5-7

    Hit lag: 4
    Shield stun: 8
    Advantage: -20
    -------------------------------------
    F Tilt
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Total: 31
    Hit: 6-8
    IASA: 30

    Hit lag: 5
    Shield stun: 11
    Advantage: -17 or -18
    -------------------------------------
    D Tilt
    [​IMG]
    Total: 39
    Hit: 6-8

    Hit lag: 6
    Shield stun: 14
    Advantage: -25
    -------------------------------------
    U Tilt
    [​IMG]
    Total: 39
    Hit: 14-17
    IASA: 35

    Hit lag: 6
    Shield stun: 13
    Advantage: -13 to -10
    -------------------------------------
    Dash attack
    [​IMG]
    Total: 37
    Strong hit: 7-9
    Weak hit: 10-16

    Hit lag: 6 (or 5)
    Shield stun: 13 (or 11)
    Advantage: -23 to -14

    -------------------------------------
    F Smash
    [​IMG]
    Total: 43
    Hit: 10-13
    Charge Frame: 4

    Hit lag: 6
    Shield stun: 14
    Advantage: -25
    -------------------------------------
    U Smash
    [​IMG]
    Total: 59
    Hit: 12-14, 16-18, 20-22, 24-26,
    28-29
    Charge Frame: 8
    IASA: 58

    --Last hit--
    Hit lag: 4
    Shield stun: 8
    Advantage: -24
    -------------------------------------
    D Smash
    [​IMG]
    Total: 48
    Hit: 6-8, 14-16
    Charge frame: 3
    IASA: 45

    --Front hit--
    Hit lag: 7
    Shield stun: 16
    Advantage: -29

    --Rear hit--
    Hit lag: 7
    Shield stun: 15
    Advantage: -22
    -------------------------------------
    N-Air
    [​IMG]
    Total: 49
    Hit: 5-29
    IASA: 40
    Auto cancel: <4 35>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7

    --Strong hit--
    Hit lag: 6
    Shield stun: 14
    Advantage: +1

    --Weak hit--
    Hit lag: 5
    Shield stun: 11
    -------------------------------------
    U-Air
    [​IMG]
    Total: 39
    Hit: 5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18,
    20-21
    IASA: 39

    Hit lag: 3
    Shield stun: 6
    Advantage: -2

    Auto cancel: <4 34>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7
    -------------------------------------
    B-Air
    [​IMG]
    Total: 39
    Hit: 9-12
    IASA: 37

    --sweet spot--
    Hit lag: 6
    Shield stun: 14
    Advantage: +1

    --Weak hit--
    Hit lag: 5
    Shield stun: 11
    Advantage: -1

    Auto cancel: <8 31>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7
    -------------------------------------
    D-Air
    [​IMG]
    Total: 54
    Hit: 18-22
    IASA: 49

    Hit lag: 7
    Shield stun: 16
    Advantage: +2

    Auto cancel: <2 34>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7
    -------------------------------------
    F-Air
    [​IMG]
    Total: 55
    Hit: 4-5, 11-12, 18-19, 25-26, 30-31
    IASA: 50

    Hit lag: 3
    Shield Stun: 7
    Advantage: -3

    Auto cancel: 47>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge stand <100%

    Total: 32
    Invincible: 1-30
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge stand 100%>

    Total: 58
    Invincible: 1-55
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge roll <100%

    Total: 48
    Invincible: 1-36
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge roll 100%>

    Total: 78
    Invincible: 1-67
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge attack <100%

    Total: 54
    Invulnerable: 1-20
    Hit: 24-27
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge attack 100%>

    Total: 68
    Invulnerable: 1-34
    Hit: 38-40
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge jump <100%

    Total: 43
    Invulnerable: 1-11
    Soonest FF: 45
    -------------------------------------
    Ledge jump 100%>

    Total: 54
    Invincible: 1-19
    Soonest FF: 53
    -------------------------------------
    Grab
    [​IMG]
    Total: 94
    Grab: 18-20, 22-37
    -------------------------------------
    Running grab
    [​IMG]
    Total: 74
    Grab: 18-27, 30-33
    -------------------------------------
    Extended grab

    Total: 94
    Grab: 18-41 or 42-57 or 59-94
    You must press A during the grab
    window to start grabbing; the grab
    will continue the remainder of the
    grab window . The grab-box is larger
    until and including the last frame
    before a big flash in the beam (for
    the first grab window only)

    Flashes: 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, 39
    Press L to home in
    -------------------------------------
    Running extended grab

    Total: 74
    Grab: 18-33

    Same rules as standing extended grab
    -------------------------------------
    Air Grapple

    Hit: 10-28 (one hitbox on the end of
    the grapple, another on Samus' arm)
    Total: 60

    Grab a wall: 9-29
    Jumping from grabbing: 1-11 (depends
    on how far you are from the point of
    grapple, and whether you're dangling)

    Landlag: 30
    Ladfallspeciallag: 4

    -------------------------------------
    Bomb
    [​IMG]
    Total: 53
    Bomb appears: 10
    Bomb exists: 73 frames, then boom
    Bomb does damage for 11 frames
    Cancel by crouching: 46>

    Explosion shield stun: 7
    Bomb bounces off shield stun: 6

    --Bombjumping--
    Total: 53
    Completely interruptible: frame 2
    where frame 1 is the explosion

    --Increased Mobility--
    Air: all of both bombing and bombjump
    ground bombing: 1-42
    ground bombjump: 1-48

    --SUPER WAVEDASH--
    You must be holding left or right on
    frame 41, then the opposite on frame
    42. If you tilt the stick less than
    all the way on 42, you get less
    distance, but for 41, any amount is
    the same.

    --Additional SWD info by Phanna--
    • Samus' SWD is completely
    ineffective on any frictionless
    surface (eg, Samus won't move if you
    SWD on ice, the UFO, oil, or the
    slick part of mute city)

    • Any ground that you can walk on,
    Samus can initiate a SWD on, as well
    as move over during a SWD (noting
    that Samus' SWD gives no actual
    velocity on slippery surfaces)

    • Pressing any direction after the
    SWD is initiated will slow down the
    SWD no matter what, including crouch
    cancelling.

    • The only moves that completely
    stop Samus' momentum from a SWD are
    down B, up B, and forward smash (as
    well as wave dashing). The slowdown
    resulting from most other moves
    depends on how much you mess with the
    control stick in order to perform
    them, though some moves certainly
    slow Samus faster than others.

    • If you bomb as Samus immediately
    after SWDing off of a surface (level,
    platform), you don't lose your
    momentum like you normally would when
    either bombing from a ground SWD, or
    SWDing past a surface. Specifically,
    you can pretty far away from a level
    if you SWD backwards off the level,
    bombing as soon as you're airborne to
    help preserve your horizontal
    momentum.

    • Like Captain Falcon's
    moonwalk-dash-jump, if you hop out of
    a SWD, you keep a fair, but lesser,
    amount of your velocity.

    • You will only automatically ledge
    hog if the level slants down to the
    ledge, or you have lost virtually all
    of the speed of the SWD (obviously,
    you must be facing the right way),
    although fast-falling as soon as
    you've left the level can let you
    still SWD to ledge-hog at higher
    speeds.
    -------------------------------------
    Charge Shot
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Total time to get full charge: 140

    Starts charging: 14
    Window for shooting charging shot:
    14-132

    --if you fire while charging--
    Shot comes out on frame 2
    30 frames of lag

    --When you stop charging--
    Shield: 8 frames of lag
    Roll: happens immediately (frame 1)

    --if you fire midair or full shot--
    shot comes out on frame 15
    29 frames of lag after that

    Shot lasts 69 frames

    Weakest shot shield stun: 6
    Almost full shield stun: 20
    Full shot shield stun: 23
    -------------------------------------
    Super Missile
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Total: 49
    Missile comes out (ground): 22
    Missile comes out (air): 15
    Missile lasts 76 frames, then boom
    (self destructed missile does no
    damage)

    Shield stun: 13

    Auto cancels upon landing
    -------------------------------------
    Homing Missile
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Total: 59
    Missile comes out (ground): 22
    Missile comes out (air): 24
    Missile Lasts 111 frames, then boom
    (self destructed missile does no
    damage)

    Shield stun: 7

    Auto cancels upon landing
    -------------------------------------
    [collapse=Missile ATs]
    Code:
    SHFFMC
    
    Fastfall       Fire Missile    Total
    28th frame in air  29            52
    28                 30            51
    29                 30            52
    29                 31            52
    30                 31            53
    30                 32            53
    31                 32            54
    
    -------------------------------------
    2 Missiles in 1 jump
    
    1st missile  FF  2nd missile   Total
    1                  50            75
    1                  51            74
    1                  52            74
    1                  53            74
    2                  51            77
    2                  52            77
    2                  53            77
    2                  54            77
    2                  55            76
    3                  52            74
    3                  53            74
    3                  54            74
    3                  55            73
    4                  53            74
    4                  54            74
    4                  55            73
    
    1            50    51            73
    1            51    52            73
    2            51    52            76
    2            52    53            76
    2            53    54            76
    2            54    55            76
    2            51    53            75
    2            52    54            75
    3            52    53            76
    3            53    54            76
    3            54    55            76
    3            52    54            75
    4            53    54            75
    4            54    55            75
    5            54    55            76
    
    -------------------------------------
    
    Full jump FFMC
    
    FF     fire missile     Total
    34          35            66
    34          36            66
    34          37            65
    34          38            64
    34          39            64
    34          40            63
    34          41            62
    35          36            67
    35          37            67
    35          38            66
    35          39            65
    35          40            65
    35          41            64
    35          42            63
    36          37            68
    36          38            68
    36          39            67
    36          40            66
    36          41            66
    36          42            65
    36          43            64
    37          38            69
    37          39            68
    37          40            68
    37          41            67
    37          42            67
    37          43            65
    37          44            65
    38          39            70
    38          40            69
    38          41            68
    38          42            68
    38          43            67
    38          44            66
    39          40            71
    39          41            70
    39          42            69
    39          43            68
    39          44            68
    39          45            67
    40          41            71
    40          42            71
    40          43            70
    40          44            69
    40          45            68
    40          46            68
    41          42            72
    41          43            71
    41          44            71
    41          45            70
    41          46            70
    41          47            68
    42          43            73
    42          44            72
    42          45            71
    42          46            71
    42          47            70
    42          48            69
    43          44            73
    43          45            72
    43          46            72
    43          47            71
    43          48            70
    44          45            74
    44          46            73
    44          47            72
    44          48            71
    44          49            71
    45          46            74
    45          47            74
    45          48            73
    45          49            72
    45          50            71
    46          47            74
    46          48            74
    46          49            73
    46          50            72
    47          48            75
    47          49            74
    47          50            73
    47          51            73
    48          49            75
    48          50            75
    48          51            74
    48          52            73
    49          50            75
    49          51            75
    49          52            74
    50          51            76
    50          52            75
    50          53            74
    51          52            76
    51          53            75
    52          53            76
    52          54            75
    53          54            76
    54          55            76
    [/collapse]
    -------------------------------------
    Screw Attack
    [​IMG]
    --from the ground--
    Total: 49
    invincible: 1-5

    Hit: 4-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13, 14-15,
    16-17, 18-19, 20-21, 22-23, 24-25,
    26-27, 28-29
    can grab edge as soon as 26

    [​IMG]
    --in the air--
    Total: 47
    Invincible: 1-3
    Hit: 4-5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13,
    14-15, 16-17, 18-19, 20-21, 22-23,
    24-25, 26-27
    can grab edge as soon as 38

    Grabs edges on both sides

    Landlag: 24
    Landfallspeciallag: 24
    -------------------------------------
    Taunt

    Total: 70
    CHEOOOPP!: 36
    -------------------------------------

    Jump: airborne on frame 4

    Air time: 69
    Earliest FF: 34
    FF air time: 49

    SH air time: 55
    Earliest FF: 28
    SH FF air time: 38

    2nd jump earliest FF: 30
    -------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Air dodge
    Invulnerable 4-29 out of 49

    [​IMG]
    Ground dodge
    invulnerable 2-15 out of 22

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Roll
    invulnerable 4-23 out of 44

    Landing lag: 4 frames

    Dash becomes run at frame 9
    Turn-jump Threshold: 13
    Run turnaround: 29
     
  2. Teczer0

    Teczer0
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    Research Assistant

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    No, I don't wanna sticky it. You can't make me >:[

    lol, good stuff though.
     
  3. Soloist

    Soloist
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    Smash Ace

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    That freaking Up B man.
     
  4. THE RED SPARROW

    THE RED SPARROW
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    Smash Lord

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    Thanks for this. But does anyone know the frame data for a Crouch Canceled Jab?
     
  5. ThePrime

    ThePrime
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    Smash Lord

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    thanks for the post yo
     
  6. Corigames

    Corigames
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    Smash Hero

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    Magnifico
    New favorite post
     
  7. MonkUnit

    MonkUnit
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    +1 wanting to know this

    awesome thread. great to see how awesome ftilt and utilt are
     
  8. Pluplue

    Pluplue
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    that grab must be rly good.
     
  9. standardtoaster

    standardtoaster
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    Tubacabra

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    I'm pretty sure for frame perfect jab cancelling you'd jab, wait for animation to end, hit down to enter crouch animation, wait one frame, press A to jab again. It'd probably end up being about 15 frames in between with no hitbox.
     
  10. blindhobo

    blindhobo
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    Smash Journeyman

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    holy crap this was just posted yesterday?

    +rep
     
  11. Violence

    Violence
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    Smash Lord

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    There's another way of doing frame perfect jab cancels.

    If you angle the control stick perfectly down and away after the first jab and hold it there, you can jab cancel perfectly.
     
    Bernie9k likes this.
  12. MonkUnit

    MonkUnit
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    I wonder if that's faster than doing jab -> down -> jab. I don't think it would change the frame data on it though. It seems that you can interrupt the going into crouch animation with a jab, and doing down + away wouldn't change that.

    It'd make your jab canceling more precise though, as you wouldn't risk doing a dtilt.
     
  13. KidWithChemicals

    KidWithChemicals
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    honestly, i think it sounds riskier trying to find some sort of perfect angle after doing a jab, rather than just flicking down or away. but hey, that's just me.

    anyway, thanks so much for posting this man. i had the zip folder downloaded but, seeing it all together like this is just awesome.
     
  14. Violence

    Violence
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    Smash Lord

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    What I do(and am practicing) is simply wavedash toward and roll the stick along the bottom to the down away notch during the part of the animation where you can't affect your movement, and then jab.

    It can become very smooth and I think this is also how Hugo does it.
     
  15. KidWithChemicals

    KidWithChemicals
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    i see..i was just messing around with. its kinda sick. i keep getting ftilits here and there though. its hard as hell for me to get the angle out of aerials though for me for some reason. but wow, i must get better at this..

    i actually just decided to give it another go for the past half hour and i've totally got it down. wow, i feel like this is really going to improve my game a whole lot. and to think, i had no idea about this. dude, thank you so much for the info.
     
  16. vadgama

    vadgama
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    Thank yous from me to everyone who worked on the hitbox/frame data stuff, the animation clips, and for the post itself. U-tilt is awesome!
     
  17. DarrellD

    DarrellD
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    Is there anywhere i can go to understand this stuff?
     
  18. iRobinhoood

    iRobinhoood
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    Official Question and Answer Thread or AIM with KirbyKaze
     
  19. bubbaking

    bubbaking
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    Smash Hero

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    You could just ask here (and everywhere) and I'm sure someone will try to help you out. What are you having trouble understanding?

    I guess to start, I could try to quickly explain all of the data listed for a certain move in the OP:
    [collapse=Samus' jab 1]
    [/collapse]
    For starters, remember that there are 60 frames in a second. A frame is the smallest unit of time measurement in Smash. In addition, yellow hitboxes are vulnerable hurtboxes (hurt by red and grabbed by yellow), red hitboxes are damaging hitboxes (hurt yellow, clank with most other reds), purple hitboxes are grabboxes (grab yellow), and blue hitboxes are invincible areas. OK, let's get started.
    The entire move's animation lasts 17 frames. If you press the A button once while standing, Samus will take 17 frames (17/60 of a second) to do her full jab animation. However, some moves have a special property in the form of Interruptible As Soon As (IASA) frames. As the name suggests, these frames indicate how early you can interrupt a move's animation to do something else. In this case, Samus' jab doesn't have IASA (at least it's not listed), so you're gonna be stuck in it for 17 frames.
    This move hits from frame 3 of the jab animation to frame 4. That's when those red hitboxes are out and if they're overlapping the yellow hurtboxes of the opponent, you get a hit. If they overlap the red hitboxes of another move, they clash.
    I'm not sure what this means. I'm pretty certain that hit lag is how long the attack 'freezes' on the opponent while hitting him but I'm not sure what EXACTLY this number means. I just know that, the greater the amount of hit lag there is, the longer the 'hitting' part of the move takes when it actually connects with the opponent.
    Again, I'm not sure EXACTLY what this number equates to, but I'm 100% certain that shield stun is a measure of how long a shield is stuck in 'frozen recoil' after being hit. In other words, the more shield stun a move induces, the longer that shield will be 'stuck' before the shielder can do anything.
    OK, back to #s I can fully explain again. Advantage (frame advantage, in full) is how early before your opponent (in frames) you can act after hitting his shield with a move. If the advantage is positive, you can move before your opponent. If it's negative, you can only move after him. In this case, after hitting the opponent's shield with jab 1, Samus can only move 11 frames after the opponent can act. This actually isn't terrible because of a quote that I'm going to throw in at the bottom of this post.
    Ftr, a move's hit lag, its shield stun, and how many frames exist between the last frame of its latest hitbox and the end of the move's animation (or its soonest IASA frame, whichever comes first) all directly affect how much advantage a move has. I'm actually not too knowledgeable on hit lag, but as a benchmark on everything else:
    • More shield stun = greater advantage (+)
    • More frames between the last frame of an attack and its earliest IASA frame (or the end of the move) = less advantage (-)
    This statistic is specific to this move. The "swing" is Samus's jab 2, so the "swing advantage" is how early before or late after the opponent can move (after shielding jab 1) that the jab 2 swing will hit the opponent. In this case, the opponent can begin acting 6 frames before Samus' jab 2 hits him. This is actually really safe, because unless the opponent is Bowser or Samus or some other extremely lucky, specific char, he can't really do anything OoS that's faster than 7 frames. The advantage you have AFTER the swing, however, is a totally different story.
    To be 100% honest, I'm actually not sure what this means at all, but if I had to guess, I'd say that these are the frames of the move during which you can press the A button to start the jab 2. This is weird though, because the window would last until frame 25 but the jab 1's animation ends on frame 17. :confused:
    Guessing again (see, I also don't know as much about frame data as I'd like), but I think this means that the jab 2 swing animation will actually start 12 frames after pressing the A button.

    Hope this all helped. ;) Oh yeah, about frame data:
     
  20. DarrellD

    DarrellD
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    This was extremely helpful so thank you for taking the time to post this =)

    Im going to ask KK or whoever if they can explain it to me as well because I cant seem to find the info on this anywhere.
     
  21. bubbaking

    bubbaking
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    No problem! It's always fun sharing info with fellow Samus mains and I know I've learned a LOT from watching you play, so it's kinda like repaying the favor. ;)
     
  22. TheGoat

    TheGoat
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    I'm just curious as to how you obtained the values for shield stun? Using Strong Bad's calculator http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302275

    I get that samus' first jab has 3 frames of shield stun, not 6. It also makes more sense kind of...6 frames of shield stun seems a lot for a jab, thats almost as long as a top-tier grab.
     
  23. bubbaking

    bubbaking
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    I'm pretty sure the fastest grabs in this game are 7 frames. Brawl is the one with the 6 frame grabs.
     
  24. TheGoat

    TheGoat
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    Yes, 7 frames. That is why I said the 6 frames of shieldstun is almost as long as a toptier (7 frame) grab which seems extreme.
     
  25. bubbaking

    bubbaking
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    Smash Hero

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    Oh, I gotcha. My bad.
     
  26. iRobinhoood

    iRobinhoood
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    Smash Lord

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    So what you guys are saying is...
     
  27. .K1

    .K1
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    Lets say I do down B when im directly...umm....inside (for lack of a better term) my opponent. How many frames until the bomb detonates / becomes active? I understand that it takes 10f for the bomb to actually come out, but how many frames does it take for the opponent to get hit if I do the bomb "meaty" ?
     
  28. Litt

    Litt
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    Explosion shield stun: 7
    Bomb bounces off shield stun: 6

    7 + 6 = 13 :)
     
  29. .K1

    .K1
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    Smash Apprentice

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    what does the shield stun have to do with how long it takes for the bomb to become active?

    Im asking if someone is shielding, and I do a bomb "inside" of their shield, how many frames until the bomb detonates AFTER it comes out. I know that actual startup for the bomb to appear on screen is 10 frames, but how many frames after that does the explosion hit the opponent.....thats what im asking.

    is the explosion on frame 1 after the 10f startup? (10frames for bomb to come out, bomb explosion hitbox appears on next frame?) or are there more startup frames for the bomb to explode? (10f for the bomb to come out, then X more frames for the explosion hitbox to appear?)
     
  30. Litt

    Litt
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    The bomb hits any hurtbox or shield on contact... the bomb comes out on frame 10, which is when it will explode if it hits an opponents shield, if they are in 13 frames of hitstun, you have a +3 frame window in the advantage to lay another bomb on them
     
  31. Litt

    Litt
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    Samus

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    OHHH, you are confused about something, there are 2 hitboxes on the bomb, the first one is the actual object, when contact is made it produces 6 frames of hitstun, and then the second hitbox is the explosion, which produces another 7 frames.
     
  32. .K1

    .K1
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    Ahhhhh okay. I didnt realize the bomb itself has a hitbox, then the explosion has a hitbox. Thanks for clearing that up! Much appreciated!
     
  33. DrinkingFood

    DrinkingFood
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    Why are the shield stuns for things often listed as like 16 for moves like fsmash when those moves aren't even doing that much damage, and the shieldd stun formula puts stun way lower than damage
    @standardtoaster are you including hitlag in these numbers
    I want to know because reasons
     
  34. standardtoaster

    standardtoaster
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    Tubacabra

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    all values like that are just straight up copied from superdoodleman's data
     
  35. DrinkingFood

    DrinkingFood
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    Smash Hero

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    Well you don't get shield stun numbers like 16 unless something is doing like 30 damage
    So he counted hitlag on shield as shield stun in addition to the actual stun which had me hella confused at first
    I had to straight up boot up melee to assure myself samus's fsmashes weren't doing that much ****ing damage
     
  36. Pud'N

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    Since autocancel lag is 4 frames, does that mean aerial missle on shield can potentially be +11?!?
     
  37. 343

    343
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    Smash Journeyman

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    I'm actually confused now: unstale super missile does 12%, so hitlag should be 3+12/3 = 7 frames and shieldstun should be floor(((12+4.45)/2.235)) = 7 frames, so where did OP's "13 frames of shieldstun" come from?

    assuming your missile comes out the frame before you hit the ground, and hits their shield the next frame, I guess it sounds like it's "+10"... but it also means you're falling on them with a frame-15 move, which is not too safe.

    also, since grab comes out frame 18 (ugh) missile -> grab can't ever "really" work :/
     
  38. DrinkingFood

    DrinkingFood
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    Smash Hero

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    works in PM ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  39. Fury_Fury

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    So I'm a samus main looking for a secondary to counter my hardest opponents like marth, falcon, jigglypuff. Who would be the best secondary to start picking up
     
  40. Pachinkosam

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    I have no friends, Im dead inside

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    Down smash to start combos good advice yah
     

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