Salt is overflowing in regards to elitism

[gravy]

I'm not going to name a single name, but I want to point out that it is frustrating for players who have not reached the top yet to go to major tournaments in hopes of getting SOME videos that they can review, only to be discouraged by top players from going on stream at all, having them ask me what I placed in pools and why I deserve to be on stream, and so on. In my opinion, if I'm still in the tournament, I deserve to be on stream. I paid my hard earned dollars and drove through multiple states to reach that tournament.

In fact, once I did get on stream and get some good videos recorded (I essentially forced my way on during downtimes, at absolutely no inconvenience to streamers,) I find myself completely unable to get any of those videos to youtube, where I would be able to ask for critiques and grow as a player. I immediately found them on twitch, timestamped them, and asked the people in charge of the stream if I could have them uploaded, only to get blown off and told "it's not a priority." Now I can't even have the videos critiqued from twitch, because the video is gone and no one has an answer for where it went. If I was able to take care of this issue myself, and upload my own videos, I would! I would have had it done within a day. However, I have to depend on other people, who are too concerned with satisfying top players to give me the time of day. Perhaps I need to buy my own streaming equipment and haul it to tournaments just so I can finally get a video on youtube...

Compare this to a top player, who gets their videos uploaded BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY. I heard rumors of a certain player even having a spot in the tournament reserved for them in case they decided to come, even though the penalty for late reservation for a peasant like me is very severe. I know for a FACT that certain players had their hotels paid for, can essentially participate for free, etc....

I understand the concept of a competitive nature, but it should be very clear that I care about improving, and am spending my time and money in an effort to do so. If TOs or streamers are completely unwilling to work with me, it is very discouraging, and with the influx of new players coming in from EVO and documentary hype, I know that they are going to be affected in the same way. I went out of my way to make it as easy to work with me as possible, they wouldn't even have had to look for the videos, yet weeks have passed and nothing has happened.

I'm interested in peoples opinions on the topic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Should have stuck with brawl bruh.

But seriously. The amount of pole riding and and **** jocking in parts of this scene is rediculous. Its like if you dont win, people are supposed to openly and blatently not care about you. Where as if you win, you get to be treated like a God among men.

I cant stand the amount of obnoxious nonsense that top players get away with just because theyve been around for a long time or because supposedly everyone wants to see them play.

Top player bias is unfortunately a part of pretty much any community thats competitive in any form. But melee players are some of the worst ive seen about it and due to the unbelievable number of chips on most of their shoulders, many are completely unwilling to budge from the status quo, even when it comes to things that are brought specifically for the sake of having more people play the game

 

[Divinokage]

Should have stuck with brawl bruh.

But seriously. The amount of pole riding and and **** jocking in parts of this scene is rediculous. Its like if you dont win, people are supposed to openly and blatently not care about you. Where as if you win, you get to be treated like a God among men.

I cant stand the amount of obnoxious nonsense that top players get away with just because theyve been around for a long time or because supposedly everyone wants to see them play.

Top player bias is unfortunately a part of pretty much any community thats competitive in any form. But melee players are some of the worst ive seen about it and due to the unbelievable number of chips on most of their shoulders, many are completely unwilling to budge from the status quo, even when it comes to things that are brought specifically for the sake of having more people play the game

Isn't that the nature of competition? The better you are, the more you are in the spotlight. It's not like every top player are unwilling to help another player, some aren't exactly good at teaching either so when that's out of the question, you play for yourself. Also with one streaming setup, why would the streamer/stream monsters want to see low level players? It's bad for views so he sets it up in a way where hype matches will happen and for that you NEED to become better. If you aren't happy with that then have your own recording setup, no other choice. Continue to play, watch the countless vids possible online and refine your play.

 

[Watofu]

Streamers spend their own time and money to deliver a stream and upload videos to youtube. Everyone wants to get on stream, but it's a little ridiculous to not only expect them to cater to you, but to get upset when they don't.

 

[Upke]

So why can't you record them yourself? I do. I'm nowhere near the top, but I own a laptop, and I am able to borrow someone's capture card from time to time (which aren't even too expensive anyways). That doesn't sound hard at all, and well it isn't.

 

[The Business]

If you want to rip videos from twitch archives, you can download the file using http://www.twitchtools.com/video-download.php or http://clipconverter.cc/. If the file is super long you can record the screen with camtasia studio 8 then upload it to youtube yourself.

I can't speak to the rest of your post.

 

[gravy]

If I owned a laptop this would not be an issue, and I plan on buying one for this purpose. Furthermore, I'm not expecting them to cater to me at all. I politely got on stream during a downtime, with the promise that if I sent the time stamps to the streamer they would get uploaded. I followed through with their wishes, waited for multiple weeks, and now I see that my wishes clearly won't be fulfilled. I shouldn't have created this thread, because I see it's going no where. Just let it be known that a complete unwillingness to work with people is certainly detrimental to the community, and I disapprove.

 

[gravy]

Business, thanks a ton, that's exactly what I needed.

 

[tarheeljks]

I'm not going to name a single name, but I want to point out that it is frustrating for players who have not reached the top yet to go to major tournaments in hopes of getting SOME videos that they can review, only to be discouraged by top players from going on stream at all, having them ask me what I placed in pools and why I deserve to be on stream, and so on. In my opinion, if I'm still in the tournament, I deserve to be on stream. I paid my hard earned dollars and drove through multiple states to reach that tournament.

well playing on the stream is a privilege, not a right. entry guarantees that you get to play your matches, but not that they will be streamed/recorded. that said, i like allowing lesser known players to experience the spotlight; however, anyone who isn't a top player doesn't really have a reasonable expectation that they will see stream time

In fact, once I did get on stream and get some good videos recorded (I essentially forced my way on during downtimes, at absolutely no inconvenience to streamers,) I find myself completely unable to get any of those videos to youtube, where I would be able to ask for critiques and grow as a player. I immediately found them on twitch, timestamped them, and asked the people in charge of the stream if I could have them uploaded, only to get blown off and told "it's not a priority." Now I can't even have the videos critiqued from twitch, because the video is gone and no one has an answer for where it went. If I was able to take care of this issue myself, and upload my own videos, I would! I would have had it done within a day. However, I have to depend on other people, who are too concerned with satisfying top players to give me the time of day. Perhaps I need to buy my own streaming equipment and haul it to tournaments just so I can finally get a video on youtube...

were these recordings tourney sets? i understand your frustration, but if they were friendlies you kinda just have to deal with this.

Compare this to a top player, who gets their videos uploaded BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY. I heard rumors of a certain player even having a spot in the tournament reserved for them in case they decided to come, even though the penalty for late reservation for a peasant like me is very severe. I know for a FACT that certain players had their hotels paid for, can essentially participate for free, etc....

of course their vids are uploaded expediently b/c people want to see them play. again i understand your frustration, but a significant motive for streaming is so that everyone can see particular people. wrt the tourney slot being held, i was not a fan of that decision. wrt comped hotels and such, i see no issue. it is essentially a sponorship; a reward for excelling at the game. are you saying you believe you should receive similar benefits?

[quote ]I understand the concept of a competitive nature, but it should be very clear that I care about improving, and am spending my time and money in an effort to do so. If TOs or streamers are completely unwilling to work with me, it is very discouraging, and with the influx of new players coming in from EVO and documentary hype, I know that they are going to be affected in the same way. I went out of my way to make it as easy to work with me as possible, they wouldn't even have had to look for the videos, yet weeks have passed and nothing has happened.

I'm interested in peoples opinions on the topic.[/quote]


i think it would be an awesome gesture if the streamer uploaded these videos, but again i don't believe you are entitled to them. again,i am assuming these are friendlies. if they are not uploading tourney matches that's a diff story.

generally, i suspect that you would find streamers more willing to cater to lesser known players at smaller events, but it's far less likely at regionals/nationals. at larger tournies they will be preoccupied with keeping viewer counts up and what not, which means keeping recognizable players on stream

Should have stuck with brawl bruh.

But seriously. The amount of pole riding and and **** jocking in parts of this scene is rediculous. Its like if you dont win, people are supposed to openly and blatently not care about you. Where as if you win, you get to be treated like a God among men.

I cant stand the amount of obnoxious nonsense that top players get away with just because theyve been around for a long time or because supposedly everyone wants to see them play.

Top player bias is unfortunately a part of pretty much any community thats competitive in any form. But melee players are some of the worst ive seen about it and due to the unbelievable number of chips on most of their shoulders, many are completely unwilling to budge from the status quo, even when it comes to things that are brought specifically for the sake of having more people play the game

i agree to an extent. top players get away with too much in terms of things like being late, holding up the bracket, etc. however, i think it's perfectly reasonable that they are the ones and streams and things like that

 

[gravy]

I'm experiencing this with friendlies as well as tournament matches, I have two tournament sets that apparently will never be uploaded, even though they were on stream. I'm not asking to be given privileges that I don't deserve, I did not demand time on the stream, I simply took time when no one else was. I am, however, upset that I can't get uploaded after asking politely for multiple weeks. I don't care though, I'm just going to do what The Business mentioned.

 

[ShrieK1295]

No comment on the specific issue of getting recorded, but there is something slightly related that I've been thinking about recently. Our community spends a ton of time talking about political correctness and not alienating people by using offensive words. I understand this concern, and I don't mind watching some of my language. I don't need to yell "****" all the time, or talk about how people are homo and suckdix. But seriously, a lot of people in the community are actually just a-holes. Top players can be stuck up and total douchebags to new players. I think it would do the community much more good if we focused on not having people be a-holes rather than telling people to stop saying ****. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who takes more offense to people being unnecessarily mean than to a few vocabulary preferences.

I'm not talking about jocular trash talk here either. I'm talking about legitimately being mean to new players who are there to try to improve their game.

 

[MasterShake]

Imo the spectators of the smash community have been groomed to only view big name videos. There are only a handful of watchers that could give a single **** about a tourney match between two decent level players. I think this is detrimental because it gives people a false sense of the average skill level, their own skill level, and how they should go about improving. Truthfully we should be promoting small name matches, and it is discouraging to never be recognized for your efforts. But you also gotta recognize the name of the game, you don't get jack **** if you're not on top.

 

[Redact]

top players can be ***** and entitled ect when it comes to anything and everything, we all know this and no one will deny this except for maybe top players themselves or **** riders.

but when it comes to stream time, as someone who is an avid stream monster, I seriously do not have intrest in unknown/low level players and most stream watchers share the same standpoint.

when I open a stream and see m2k/mango/hbox/armada/pp or someone else top level as either of the players if only one, I will watch.

but the second i see some random guy vs other random guy who play mid level melee? all I'd do is change stream/close it and check the schedule to see when matches I want to watch are going to come on. this is no good for streamers nor sponsors thus showing only the best possible is usually the way to go. I'd rather watch friendlies between two top level players than mid level bracket too tbh, not sure who else shares this opinion but really just 0 intrest in anything but high level play.

 

[MountainGoat]

Quit whining scrub


(I'm a scrub too)

 

[gravy]

I don't know when this became a discussion about earning stream time over top players. All I want is to get the stream time I do get uploaded eventually, especially if I put all the effort into locating my games and isolating them. I don't care if it's a lower priority than top 8, but I do care that it's never done at all.

 

[Bones0]

I'm gonna have to agree with a few of the above posters that being on stream or getting your matches uploaded are privileges, not rights. It isn't feasibly possible to get everyone on stream, and the whole purpose of the stream is for the people at home, not so much for the players playing to go back and watch their matches. What I think would be a fair compromise is having tournament matches or MMs between lower-skilled players during down time because it can still be interesting to watch lower skilled players play as long as there is something on the line. I remember that one epic Marth ditto MM that got hyped at that Cali house tourney. Hopefully someone remembers what I'm talking about can link it. But aside from that, if you want your matches recorded, you should really just look into buying your own capture card and bringing it to tournaments. Uploaders rarely get anything back from their efforts, so to expect them to take extra time out to upload matches that will get <10 views is pretty ridiculous. In fact, it can actively hurt their channel to have a bunch of matches between randoms because no one wants to sift through 100 vids of bad players to find the 3 good ones.

The level of entitlement among top players is reaching disgusting levels. Probably the worst practice I see at almost every large tournament these days is notable players (plenty of whom are supposed to be community leaders, so they know who they are) claiming to be playing a MM to avoid sharing a setup with another Smasher. There's no better way to get rid of potential new players than by essentially refusing them access to playing the game. Everyone chips in equally for the venue so setups are not exclusive to skilled players. I understand you're going to have PP and Mango playing all day on the same setup because they are world class players that plenty of people are crowding around just to watch, but frankly, if you're not drawing any sort of crowd, you have no real reason to be keeping a setup all to yourself. Good players already have the benefit of "winner stays" being standard. That I am fine with because it maintains some balance on setups. If you want to get good practice, you'll have to wait a little longer. If you don't care who you play, you'll obviously take the setup with another bad player so you don't have to wait around. Keeping players off a setup entirely however should not be tolerated, and hopefully some good players that read this or hear complaints from other players take it upon themselves to be more inclusive to other players.

 

[WHA?]

I'm gonna have to agree with a few of the above posters that being on stream or getting your matches uploaded are privileges, not rights. It isn't feasibly possible to get everyone on stream, and the whole purpose of the stream is for the people at home, not so much for the players playing to go back and watch their matches. What I think would be a fair compromise is having tournament matches or MMs between lower-skilled players during down time because it can still be interesting to watch lower skilled players play as long as there is something on the line. I remember that one epic Marth ditto MM that got hyped at that Cali house tourney. Hopefully someone remembers what I'm talking about can link it. But aside from that, if you want your matches recorded, you should really just look into buying your own capture card and bringing it to tournaments. Uploaders rarely get anything back from their efforts, so to expect them to take extra time out to upload matches that will get <10 views is pretty ridiculous. In fact, it can actively hurt their channel to have a bunch of matches between randoms because no one wants to sift through 100 vids of bad players to find the 3 good ones.

The level of entitlement among top players is reaching disgusting levels. Probably the worst practice I see at almost every large tournament these days is notable players (plenty of whom are supposed to be community leaders, so they know who they are) claiming to be playing a MM to avoid sharing a setup with another Smasher. There's no better way to get rid of potential new players than by essentially refusing them access to playing the game. Everyone chips in equally for the venue so setups are not exclusive to skilled players. I understand you're going to have PP and Mango playing all day on the same setup because they are world class players that plenty of people are crowding around just to watch, but frankly, if you're not drawing any sort of crowd, you have no real reason to be keeping a setup all to yourself. Good players already have the benefit of "winner stays" being standard. That I am fine with because it maintains some balance on setups. If you want to get good practice, you'll have to wait a little longer. If you don't care who you play, you'll obviously take the setup with another bad player so you don't have to wait around. Keeping players off a setup entirely however should not be tolerated, and hopefully some good players that read this or hear complaints from other players take it upon themselves to be more inclusive to other players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTHnhQ0Enks

This is what you were refering to
jkun vs thegreatleon $200 MM

In regards to gravvy's points
- yes, top level players get special treatment. I don't mind it at all. I would definitely donate to have a big name or up and comer come to my region. I would most definitely not pay any part of a no name's stuff, unless he did some bad ass stuff at the last tourney he attended. Even having tourneys being held up for certain players used to bug me, but as long as it is done within reason then its no problem. Having a big name at a tourney is almost brings attention/hype, so why would they not have SOME leeway. If it is holding up tourney for more than an hour then WTF TO.
- i do however condone people being asshats no matter if top level or low level

Also an example that i think sheds some light on what gravvy talks about
- top level guy cant pay entry fees, so he says he owes TO money when he wins. He does win and THEN pays fees.

In my mind this is kind of a **** move, but of course we know they will almost certainly place in the money. This kind of leniency would not be offered to us low level players, but F it, they kinda earned it.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I'm finding the thread title to be very appropriate

Top players are assholes sometimes and all this **** riding sucks. I think what everybody could do is to act towards top players as they were nothing special, with respect and everything of course, but not giving them special favours etc.

M2K: Can I borrow your controller? I'll return it for sure I promise

Me: No

 

[dkuo]

didnt really read through the responses but here are a few things

I'm not going to name a single name, but I want to point out that it is frustrating for players who have not reached the top yet to go to major tournaments in hopes of getting SOME videos that they can review, only to be discouraged by top players from going on stream at all, having them ask me what I placed in pools and why I deserve to be on stream, and so on. In my opinion, if I'm still in the tournament, I deserve to be on stream. I paid my hard earned dollars and drove through multiple states to reach that tournament.

top players get more priority because theres a higher demand for their videos. however, if you were discouraged from going on stream even during downtime or when nobody was on stream, that's not okay...but otherwise its completely reasonable. its all about demand, expecting streamers to do extra work to appease one person (even if its of a high/top player) is a bit of a stretch...having them go at their schedule should be expected

ON THAT NOTE, while i can understand stuff like "we need to prioritize the good players" etc, anyone that tells a player that they "dont deserve to be on stream" can go eat a **** because thats just needlessly belittling and not helpful to the community. **** that

In fact, once I did get on stream and get some good videos recorded (I essentially forced my way on during downtimes, at absolutely no inconvenience to streamers,) I find myself completely unable to get any of those videos to youtube, where I would be able to ask for critiques and grow as a player. I immediately found them on twitch, timestamped them, and asked the people in charge of the stream if I could have them uploaded, only to get blown off and told "it's not a priority." Now I can't even have the videos critiqued from twitch, because the video is gone and no one has an answer for where it went. If I was able to take care of this issue myself, and upload my own videos, I would! I would have had it done within a day. However, I have to depend on other people, who are too concerned with satisfying top players to give me the time of day. Perhaps I need to buy my own streaming equipment and haul it to tournaments just so I can finally get a video on youtube...

Compare this to a top player, who gets their videos uploaded BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY.

streamers' priority is tournament matches. if your footage isnt tournament material there's no real reason for the streamer to upload that footage. if it happens to be tournament i dont really see a reason the streamer doesnt want to upload it, but its still not something you should just automatically expect.

if streamers don't upload your video use twitchtools in the future. i always upload my own vids to my yt acc in case the streamer doesnt do so. its a hassle i know but believe me the streamer is dealing with much bigger of a hassle

twitch videos that arent archived are removed after a week...so thats where they go

I heard rumors of a certain player even having a spot in the tournament reserved for them in case they decided to come, even though the penalty for late reservation for a peasant like me is very severe. I know for a FACT that certain players had their hotels paid for, can essentially participate for free, etc....

this does bring up something i find a little bs. not the whole 'paying for players' or 'reserving spots' part but punishment for all players should be equal when they dont follow conduct (most notably being on time). doesnt matter who you are, you should be dq'd as fast as any other player if you arent on time or break some rules...none of this holding up bracket bs i see occasionally

but i mean hey theres more demand for them to play, so whatever

also yeah some top players might be douches from time to time but for the most part the high/top players are very open to helping people and not mean-spirited in any sense...maybe youve had a different experience, idk. it could just be the region lol

lastly

if you want a recording setup you need a minimum of 3 things
1 - usb recording (easycap is like $10)
2 - laptop that doesnt suck too much (most laptops nowadays can support 30fps 480p)
3 - either splitters for video signal or a gc/wii cable that also has s-video

alternatively,
1 - camera/phone with video
2 - anything to stabilize the recording device (friend/volunteer/tripod/table)

 

[Mew2King]

yea it sucks but that's just how it is. I had to go thru that too a LOT in 2005. (also had to download DC++ vids, find people who hosted said rare videos, try to learn from early metagame, theorycraft on my own, play vs computers and my personal favorite, find frame tests on my own). I learned some %ages of chain grabbing from watching Ken vs bomb solider videos and I wrote all the %ages down then did extensive testing with 2 controllers at once (3-4 controllers for some of my stat lists like fast-fall falling speed list).

http://clashtournaments.com/?p=637#33

u guys don't know how easy u have it nowadays compared to before

i think more setups would solve a LOT of problems though (or greatly minimize them).

 

[EPsilon933]

I haven't read anything but the 1st 3 posts, but if you want videos of yourself on youtube, run your own recording setup and play tournament sets on it if you can't get on stream with archives being saved/uploaded. Don't expect others to go out of their way for you. They're already doing a service for lots of other people. Recording videos so easy

 

[DippnDots]

I have to agree with Epsilon.

If you want videos recorded, record them yourself, upload them, you are not entitled to the TO's equipment because you paid money to compete in a tournament. They are streaming / uploading matches for entertainment, not for the players improvement.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do, but you're acting very entitled.

 

[R2_GP]

-2013 smashers problems-
Back in the day i was happy just to see my match in a ****ing cell phone

 

[Zhea]

It's a TO dependent thing. I've kicked higher level players off of setups for this purpose before, but I also try and get pools recorded. I've had some top players locally give me some guff, but not letting top level players push you around is TOing skillset.

Some of this is time related as well, you have a player on a tear through winners and it makes it really easy to just get his entire run through bracket and saves the TO a head ache. This is something I have been working on personally and my next tournament is probably going to either go longer or lose an event to make time for people to get Money Matches up on the Stream/Commentary setup. I think this is super important to do at locals.

That being said, TOing(and being good at it) is a hard job done for less than free. I regularly lose about 40 - 60 of my own money covering peoples venue when they bring setups and help me out by commentating and running the recording setup for a singles while I handle bracket. Beyond that uploading is a long an monotonous process of cutting, uploading and labeling, all of which take time. It takes me about 2 days to upload a 4 event tournament if I get all of Sunday to start. 4 days if I spend every night doing it. Demanding that your friendly between tournament matches be uploaded and that they are assholes for not doing it is a pretty entitled stance. I personally will do it, but keep in mind your taking about 15 - 30 minutes of my time depending on how hard the clip is to find. After an exhausting 14 hour day of running a tournament, where you as the TO, outside your own matches got maybe 2 friendlies, you don't want to even think of doing uploads.

As far as High level players getting certain incentives to come, well... Why do you travel to tournaments? I would bet it's because tournaments get a high concentration of top level players to attend them. Meaning you can play top level players while there and level up a bit. This is something you as a player actively want. The TO would be doing you, and anyone else who wanted to improve a disservice if they didn't stretch rules to get more of them to attend.

 

[-ACE-]

Pretty sure the OP has been lectured enough. gravy, save up your money and remedy this yourself. Encourage others to bring extra setups to fests and tourneys and do your best to do the same. Go smash with someone with a recording setup. Keep an open mind and play to learn. Don't get discouraged. Good luck.