Safer Sheik Transformation & FW Mindgame Discovered!

[sFoster]

I was playing a 1v1 against my 2v2 partner yesterday.
I main Zelda (naturally) and he plays Ike.

So.. with his Ike off the edge of smashville.. and my Zelda in the air near the middle I tried to interrupt his recovery by shooting a Din's fire. I do this with smash-stick+b, so that it operates independant of my normal DI.

Anyway.. I screwed up, and I accidently began a sheik transformation.
I mashed some controls out of panic, and I CANCELED the sheik transformation and teleported straight up as Zelda instead

Obviously this has some great applications, but I need some help from the Zelda community.
I can't seem to recreat this event, but I refuse to believe it was a one-time bug.

My partner was in the game, and he saw it as well over wifi, and he heard the transformation noise that accompanies down-special.

So I am not insane, and it was not limited to just my wii.

Anyone want to help me figure out the exact controls?
If we get more than just one person in on this (me) we can probably figure it out a lot faster.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

I'm willing to help you with this tomorrow. Unavailable to reach my Wii right now, I'm afraid.

If a safe way to transform is discovered, Zelda will be even greater. So I'm in.

 

[S2]

Dunno about this,

I spent a few minutes trying it myself and there doesn't appear to be any way to cancel the move. Could you give more info, or did you save your match?

I'm guessing it was probably a glitch, unless someone else has some insight into how to purposefully recreate it.

 

[sFoster]

Dunno about this,

I spent a few minutes trying it myself and there doesn't appear to be any way to cancel the move. Could you give more info, or did you save your match?

I'm guessing it was probably a glitch, unless someone else has some insight into how to purposefully recreate it.

Yeah I spent about 5-10 minutes trying to recreate it as well, and I didn't have any luck =/
I know his Ike was far enough away that it's impossible for him to have hit me out of it.

So this definitely happened because of the controls I was inputting and nothing else.
Could have something to do with falling from the air, then touching the ground while it happened but I don't know if that is related at all. Also could involve the shield or jump button, I had accidently hit a few things in a row out of frustrating from accidently transforming.

Even if it was a glitch.. it has to be reproducable, right?
It's not like the program code is changing from game to game.. ugh idk

No replay because the match was 5 stock and over 3 minutes.. I probably should have just SDed all my lives immediately after it happened but that didn't occur to me.

This definitely happened.. and it was something that I had pressed relatively early into the animation.. early enough that it never actually began loading sheiks data

Moves like the dash attack canceled usmash.. are so difficult to pull off, even if you know exactly what to press it can take you a long time to get it right.. so it's possible I have retested the correct button sequence but just pressed it slightly out of time and missed it

 

[Tsuteto]

What's your controller set-up as?

 

[popsofctown]

have you started a thread in the sheik forums yet? it'd be a good idea, get more help

 

[sFoster]

What's your controller set-up as?

Wii-mote has the d-pad set to smashes, and tap jump off.
Everything else is pretty much standard, and I use a nunchuck too.

I use d-pad+b to emulate b-sticking, while still having all my smashes.
So for a dins fire, I press d-pad left+b and this throws a dins fire to the left..etc

This works with a g c controller, but you need to set L to specials to make it comfortable.
This way you can use the c-stick with your right hand, and squeeze L at the same time with your left.

 

[Tsuteto]

Alright, I'll see what I can do.

 

[Oh Snap]

Hopefully more information about this tatic will be discovered. It sounds like a very fun tactic to use; transform to bait your opponent and then teleport down to damage the opponent with Farore's Wind.

 

[Yuna]

You can't hit Zelda out of it. Doesn't she go invincible right as she starts transforming and stays that way 'til towards the end of it?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Zelda's vulnerable until her model disappears and those swirly lights appear iirc. I've been hit out of it before.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I often frantically hit all the buttons when I don't mean to transform, and 3 out of 5 times, Zelda will transform within 1.5 seconds. Perhaps there is some special sequence of buttons to mash that helps Zelda "concentrate"

It usually happens faster when I do it in the air too.

 

[Newuser12345215]

I often frantically hit all the buttons when I don't mean to transform, and 3 out of 5 times, Zelda will transform within 1.5 seconds. Perhaps there is some special sequence of buttons to mash that helps Zelda "concentrate"

It usually happens faster when I do it in the air too.

Was there another Sheik or Zelda in the game? If there is, the loading time for transforming will be faster.

Zelda will even transform in just 0.5 seconds(near instant) if you have a Zelda and a Sheik of the same colors(This can be achieved in Wifi or in Team Battle).

 

[SinkingHigher]

Nope. Usually it's me (Zelda) and Ike, Snake or Link.

I haven't tried it on Wifi?

Why would it matter if there is another Zelda though? Why would the developers do that?

 

[Dihan]

The Wii has to load up the character data seperately, if there's another Sheik or Zelda in the game then the character data is already there so it loads faster... I think.

 

[Facet]

Oh comon, get real. The wii can load a character basically as fast as it wants to - it takes time because thats just a property of the move.

 

[Tsuteto]

No, the Wii doesn't do that as part of the game. Well, it does, but... ugh. Let's put it this way. Go into a 1v1, Zelda vs. whoever else you want. Loading times are what you're probably used to. Now go into a FFA with Zelda, Sheik, your Zelda/Sheik, and some other character. Kill off the first two. Transform. It'll be faster than what it was before.

 

[Luthien]

Oh comon, get real. The wii can load a character basically as fast as it wants to - it takes time because thats just a property of the move.

^^Sarcasm?

 

[Newuser12345215]

Oh comon, get real. The wii can load a character basically as fast as it wants to - it takes time because thats just a property of the move.

No it's not a "Property of the move".

If it's a "property of the move", then it should take 3 seconds to transform whether or not there is another Zelda or not in the game.

Go to Team Brawl.

Play 3v1(to test it).

Play Zelda, play on the team with 3 players.

Pick Sheik and Zelda as your Computer allies, play against anyone else.

Now, when the game starts, transform AND YOU TRANSFORM NEAR-INSTANTLY(It takes 0.5 seconds, which is like LIGHTNING FAST, compared to the regular 3 second transformation speed).

So this shows that the transformation time is directly based off of the loading time. Because there is already a Zelda and Sheik "loaded" in the game(same color), the transformation time is instantly.

Though, Zelda only transforms instantly if there is another Sheik/Zelda that is the SAME COLOR. If there is a different colored Sheik/Zelda,, she transforms in about 1.5 seconds, and normally she transforms in around 3 seconds without any other Zeldas or Sheiks in the game.

^^Sarcasm?

I don't think so, he said "property of the move" which meant Zelda's transformation time is a "static or set" transforming time, but it isn't because Zelda transform faster if a Sheik is in the game.



I don't know whether it was intended for Zelda to transform instantly, or why they didn't simply just make the transformation time a "set" transformation time instead of based on loading time.

 

[Slayers8anFTW]

There have been many times I've cursed Sakurai and team for not implementing the transformation time the way that they clearly meant it to be, but then again, maybe they made it that way so Zelda wasn't completely broken...imagine if she could reset all of her damage decay in less that 1.5 seconds, that would be brutal and unfair...but I wouldn't complain too much

 

[S2]

I've seen first hand proof that its a loading issue.

Before the US release, I was playing Brawl at someone's house on a modded Wii. The modded Wii had problems loading the game, so load times were drastic for everything (starting matches, going to the next screen, etc - all took over 5x as long as normal).

Why this is important is that whenever you used a character swap (Pokemon Trainer, Wario Man, Zelda/Sheik, ZSS) it took about 20 seconds to load. The rest of the game went on as normal, you just sat there in the invulnerable magic until the data was finished loading.

Its clear evidence that in Brawl, transforming characters appear when the Wii load is complete.

Further evidence is in certain mirror match type situations and the fact that you can pause the game while your character loads, then unpause for a lag-free transformation.


If anyone's curious, certain smash attacks are like this, not just Warioman (although he's the most pronounced). Fox/Falco/Wolf's landmaster has a load time on it. If you get a smashball and press B before the load is complete, you'll shoot a laser instead of releasing your final smash.

Again, on the Wii with loading problems this was drastic. As Wolf I'd have to stall a good 10 seconds before I could final smash. Since the game simply has you doing regular neutral Bs until the load is complete.


Here's a funny possibility. In the future, if Nintendo either does a Wii redesign that loads data faster (like how the PSP slim loads faster than the old model) or releases a Wii successor that has quickloading on backwards compatible Wii games....

then the timing on all of transformation moves will go down. Obviously you'd still have to wait through the animation, but the in-between load would be gone. Understand what I mean by pressing down-b and pausing. Certain animations always exist regardless of whether it loads normally or quicker.

 

[Newuser12345215]

I've seen first hand proof that its a loading issue.

Before the US release, I was playing Brawl at someone's house on a modded Wii. The modded Wii had problems loading the game, so load times were drastic for everything (starting matches, going to the next screen, etc - all took over 5x as long as normal).

Why this is important is that whenever you used a character swap (Pokemon Trainer, Wario Man, Zelda/Sheik, ZSS) it took about 20 seconds to load. The rest of the game went on as normal, you just sat there in the invulnerable magic until the data was finished loading.

Its clear evidence that in Brawl, transforming characters appear when the Wii load is complete.

Further evidence is in certain mirror match type situations and the fact that you can pause the game while your character loads, then unpause for a lag-free transformation.


If anyone's curious, certain smash attacks are like this, not just Warioman (although he's the most pronounced). Fox/Falco/Wolf's landmaster has a load time on it. If you get a smashball and press B before the load is complete, you'll shoot a laser instead of releasing your final smash.

Again, on the Wii with loading problems this was drastic. As Wolf I'd have to stall a good 10 seconds before I could final smash. Since the game simply has you doing regular neutral Bs until the load is complete.


Here's a funny possibility. In the future, if Nintendo either does a Wii redesign that loads data faster (like how the PSP slim loads faster than the old model) or releases a Wii successor that has quickloading on backwards compatible Wii games....

then the timing on all of transformation moves will go down. Obviously you'd still have to wait through the animation, but the in-between load would be gone. Understand what I mean by pressing down-b and pausing. Certain animations always exist regardless of whether it loads normally or quicker.

An easy fix they could have done was just "preload" all the data that was needed BEFORE the match. This would make loading the match/stage slightly longer but in turn, reduces the loading times of transformation.

Like, if you play as Fox, load Landmaster(when the stage starts) so that when Fox uses it, he uses it instantly.

Load both Zelda and Sheik character data(when the stage starts), and keep them loaded so that they'll transform faster.

Didn't SSBM simply just kept Zelda and Sheik character data loaded so that they have a static transform time?

Not sure why Nintendo didn't just do this.

 

[Naybewon]

I think it's hilarious how, if you beat Classic Mode or All-Star Mode with Zelda (I'm pretty sure both have the same thing) it shows that little ending video...and during that, she transforms in about half a second to Sheik...Yet the video is not a cutscene and was taken from gameplay footage.

 

[CCC07]

its probably a glitch as zelda seems to have alot of glicthes with FW and transform.
like falling thru solid stages like castle siege and hyrule brigde during FW. this has happened to me
3 times. and sadly cost me the match WTF!!!! next time it happens ill try and save it depending on the time.

 

[S2]

An easy fix they could have done was just "preload" all the data that was needed BEFORE the match. This would make loading the match/stage slightly longer but in turn, reduces the loading times of transformation.

Like, if you play as Fox, load Landmaster(when the stage starts) so that when Fox uses it, he uses it instantly.

Load both Zelda and Sheik character data(when the stage starts), and keep them loaded so that they'll transform faster.

Didn't SSBM simply just kept Zelda and Sheik character data loaded so that they have a static transform time?

Not sure why Nintendo didn't just do this.

Yeah, Zelda/Sheik really should have been loaded into the ram at the start of a match.

Some of the other stuff I don't think would work. When they program, they have to assume that the game is going to be played under the more system taxing circumstances.

IE, someone is playing Zelda, another is Wario, another is Fox, and the last is PT. They are playing on something like Big Blue with Pokeballs/ATs on high.

The problem is that would probably overload the system resources... if on top of that Shiek/Warioman/Landmaster/and the other two pokemon were all sitting in the ram for insta-transform. Not to mention the game has to keep track of any stickers/CDs you collect in a battle, that sucks up resources too.

The game already cuts corners for faster load times. This is why playing the same stage over and over with the same character/color gets you less load time than normal. Character/color/stage/etc if a player doesn't change these things it never wipes them from the ram to save loading.

It's stupid that the game doesn't load Zelda/Sheik together... since the point of the character is to swap back and forth. They dropped the ball on that one.

But otherwise they would have needed to write programming to determine when to load what into the ram based on importance. That's more work than they probably wanted to do.

 

[sFoster]

UPDATE - Somebody else in the tactical section has confirmed this happened to them as well.
They said their sheik transformation has been canceled into a teleport on more than one occasion.

We just need to figure out how it's possible