Sacrificing a lamb: Mii legality

[Reaperfan]

I wouldn't have made this thread if I knew there were actually some people maining Mii.

I don't know why this isn't back on the fifth page yet.

Because while there aren't many Mii mains, the situation Miis are in is very open to arguments of semantics and where people place values in defining terms and basic concepts. The lack of an ability to come to an understanding on something as simple as "do Miis even have Custom moves?" has made the whole argument, internally at least among Mii players, very volatile and closed-minded with people unwilling to rethink or reconsider the current state of Miis outside of their own personally biased stances.

Basically, it's become an isolated yet incredibly heated argument that's only taking place between the Mii players who are unlikely to ever reach a conclusion due to lack of mediation and compromise with everyone left in the argument taking a never-ending stance of "my way or the highway." But they won't back out of the argument either because, honestly, it is rather unfair to be in a position where you can't participate in the competitive scene simply because nobody knows what to do with your character.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I would suggest just using the default Mii Fighters that come prepacked with the game:

Spoiler

The game already has a move suggested for the Mii Fighters that can be used if people are worried about Custom movesets.

I honestly see no problem with them.

 

[mega4000]

Ummmm....... every tournament I have been to, everyone plays helicopter kick......because its way better than piston punch lol

Killing at 15% off a throw unreliably (or even if it is reliably) at the cost of a bad recovery, is not better than killing at off a throw at 30% more reliably with a much better recovery.

Lol at randoms calling out dapuffster.

show video with mii killing at 30% with helicopter kick pls.

 

[Judo777]

show video with mii killing at 30% with helicopter kick pls.

I'd have to get a recording of my grand set against one of the better players in Kentucky. Basically I died on about 6 occasions to dthrow > fair >fair upb starting at around 30%. The window is strict and the Mii has to have a very specific height and weight to make it combo, but it WAS comboing. The only thing I could do was alter my DI severly to make it much harder for him to combo. Also keep in mind sheik is lightweight.

Da Puffster has a recent set against Chibo where he combos fair into up B at least once, and he combos dthrow into fair hundreds of times. Its not hard to connect the dots.

 

[DavemanCozy]

None of those are good reasons to ban a character.

There's nothing meta-game-breaking about the Mii's sans Piston Punch from the Brawler, and Japan just goes ahead and bans it and their ruleset works fine.

Hey, Japan actually plays with Customs Off, but allows all the Mii moves because turning Customs Off doesn't restrict Miis. And yet, you still see Shiek, Diddy and Zero Suit doing better at tournaments there (with only one tournament so far being won by a Brawler).

I honestly don't see why they should be banned, specially when only the Brawler becomes a significant viable threat while the Gunner is average and the Swordfighter is still awful.

 

[David Viran]

I'd have to get a recording of my grand set against one of the better players in Kentucky. Basically I died on about 6 occasions to dthrow > fair >fair upb starting at around 30%. The window is strict and the Mii has to have a very specific height and weight to make it combo, but it WAS comboing. The only thing I could do was alter my DI severly to make it much harder for him to combo. Also keep in mind sheik is lightweight.

Da Puffster has a recent set against Chibo where he combos fair into up B at least once, and he combos dthrow into fair hundreds of times. Its not hard to connect the dots.

I noticed that alot of people don't actually DI or know how to DI helicpter kick. It's the same thing with zss's up b they kill so much earlier when not DIed properly.

 

[Feryn Hyrk]

The OP said Miis aren't characters. He is wrong, there is a Mii that was a very important and charismaic character from the not old app called Swapnote:

Nikki. She alone is what made me enjoy playing as her Mii Brawler so much, she's just so cute and fun to play as! Also, we almost got a Swapnot stage for this smash, so clearly she holds all weight Miis need.

 

[Jigglymaster]

show video with mii killing at 30% with helicopter kick pls.

I'd have to get a recording of my grand set against one of the better players in Kentucky. Basically I died on about 6 occasions to dthrow > fair >fair upb starting at around 30%. The window is strict and the Mii has to have a very specific height and weight to make it combo, but it WAS comboing. The only thing I could do was alter my DI severly to make it much harder for him to combo. Also keep in mind sheik is lightweight.

Da Puffster has a recent set against Chibo where he combos fair into up B at least once, and he combos dthrow into fair hundreds of times. Its not hard to connect the dots.

http://youtu.be/-HGoTcLU7L0?t=4m3s

Killed from a grab at 22%. I swear to god you give me the same Online tournament bs I'm gonna flip. This game had $200 on the line with minimal to no lag. The move does 17% damage before actually sending you out and you can drag them to the edge with your horizontal recovery as far as you want basically, pair that with rage and it becomes a devastating tool.

Want more? Try this
http://youtu.be/NhZBbepHR2w?t=12m49s

how about this?
http://youtu.be/tEbo95PY6NY?t=7m7s

I'm sorry that there hasn't been a single big in person tournament that has allowed Helicopter Kick yet but when KTAR XIII comes around there will be you'll see it again just like these.

 

[David Viran]

http://youtu.be/-HGoTcLU7L0?t=4m3s

Killed from a grab at 22%. I swear to god you give me the same Online tournament bs I'm gonna flip. This game had $200 on the line with minimal to no lag. The move does 17% damage before actually sending you out and you can drag them to the edge with your horizontal recovery as far as you want basically, pair that with rage and it becomes a devastating tool.

Want more? Try this
http://youtu.be/NhZBbepHR2w?t=12m49s

how about this?
http://youtu.be/tEbo95PY6NY?t=7m7s

I'm sorry that there hasn't been a single big in person tournament that has allowed Helicopter Kick yet but when KTAR XIII comes around there will be you'll see it again just like these.

Helicopter kick is a very good move but that one with zero shouldn't have killed with proper DI. I'm kind of surprised that zero doesn't know the DI for it because it's pretty much the same as zss's up b which I know he knows.

The one on delfino and the last one for that matter only work when the opponent is on there last stock because it kills you too unless you were in that one part of delfino with water near the edge. I'm not entirely sure if DI could save them maybe. Tge ledge cancel with feint jump into Helicopter kick is pretty legit but I imagine that set up being extremely hard when people stop challenging it.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Helicopter kick is a very good move but that one with zero shouldn't have killed with proper DI. I'm kind of surprised that zero doesn't know the DI for it because it's pretty much the same as zss's up b which I know he knows.

The one on delfino and the last one for that matter only work when the opponent is on there last stock because it kills you too unless you were in that one part of delfino with water near the edge. I'm not entirely sure if DI could save them maybe. Tge ledge cancel with feint jump into Helicopter kick is pretty legit but I imagine that set up being extremely hard when people stop challenging it.

Vex Kasrani and I tested the DI on the Helicopter Kick, it's possible but it only saves you by a small percentage. You're still dying if you get caught with it by the ledge. That was the 6th game I played against ZeRo in that tournament and he had gotten hit and killed by the move many times. My bet is that he didn't think he'd possibly die to it that low but Rage kicked in and he did.

We're also comparing Helicopter Kick to Piston Punch because in most of those scenarios PP would not have killed. The fact that Feint Jump into HK is a kill combo makes opponents respect you heavily while on the ledge, they can't commit to a ledge read or punish.

 

[David Viran]

Vex Kasrani and I tested the DI on the Helicopter Kick, it's possible but it only saves you by a small percentage. You're still dying if you get caught with it by the ledge. That was the 6th game I played against ZeRo in that tournament and he had gotten hit and killed by the move many times. My bet is that he didn't think he'd possibly die to it that low but Rage kicked in and he did.

We're also comparing Helicopter Kick to Piston Punch because in most of those scenarios PP would not have killed. The fact that Feint Jump into HK is a kill combo makes opponents respect you heavily while on the ledge, they can't commit to a ledge read or punish.

Oh yeah I think helicopter kick is definitely better at killing than piston punch and that was what I was saying is that people are not respecting feint jump enough and getting hit by it and dying because of that.

Zero didn't look like he had settled on what DI because he was DIing different ways a lot of the time. I'm curious what DI you found to be the best I thought holding down and in when near the ledge was good but I could be wrong?

I love playing mii brawler and mii fighters in general. My friend and I love battling each other with them and I fully support them being legal with full customs and well customs in general.

 

[mega4000]

Vex Kasrani and I tested the DI on the Helicopter Kick, it's possible but it only saves you by a small percentage. You're still dying if you get caught with it by the ledge. That was the 6th game I played against ZeRo in that tournament and he had gotten hit and killed by the move many times. My bet is that he didn't think he'd possibly die to it that low but Rage kicked in and he did.

We're also comparing Helicopter Kick to Piston Punch because in most of those scenarios PP would not have killed. The fact that Feint Jump into HK is a kill combo makes opponents respect you heavily while on the ledge, they can't commit to a ledge read or punish.

One last question: How should you DI against piston punch? I'm talking about opponents that knows how to do it properly, which one should be your reaction in order to not die against that move? Answer this with full detail and I will jump on the train of miis with alternate sets.

 

[Jigglymaster]

One last question: How should you DI against piston punch? I'm talking about opponents that knows how to do it properly, which one should be your reaction in order to not die against that move? Answer this with full detail and I will jump on the train of miis with alternate sets.

It's funny because both moves require opposite DI. First I'll talk about D-throw.

Generally there are 2 ways to DI Brawler's D-throw and that is either away or directly above him. Against Piston Punch you'd want to DI away to avoid being combo'd, since the move is a vertical hitting attack, this makes it harder for him as well as reducing the vertical distance. For Helicopter Kick, you want to DI behind so that you're directly above him, this makes it harder for him to connect his Helicopter Kick and it reduces the horizontal distance.

When it comes to stage positioning, you're generally safe against Piston Punch if you stay near the bottom and next to the ledge. This of course, is the exact place you DON'T want to be against Helicopter Kick, against that move you'd want to be in the very middle, which is where Piston Punch wants you and on top of platforms of course.

Now, for the actual DIng. I've concluded that holding directly towards the stage help you live a tiny bit longer against Helicopter Kick, no holding up or down. Against Piston Punch, you'd want to again, do the exact opposite. Hold down and away from the stage.

Both moves are generally similar, but Helicopter Kick has the advantage mostly due to the fact that you can get yourself and the opponent in a combo closer to the horizontal blast zones than you can with the vertical blast zone. An opponent who knows better about Piston Punch will avoid platforms at all costs and stay as low as to the ground as they can. Against Helicopter Kick... its harder to avoid being near the ledge because that's generally where you go when you lose stage control. In a nutshell, HK rewards for taking stage control where as PP makes you give your opponent stage control, and even then hey could time you out if they wanted to by camping near the edges of the stage sitting in shield. Because lets be honest, what are you going to do to them?

Should also mention that PP has to fight against many things such as stages without platforms and fall speeds making vertical killing harder. When HK does its business it doesn't matter how heavy you are if it can bring you all the way out to the blast zone before sending you off. Feint Jump also compliments HK more because of how the kick sends the opponent horizontally into a combo.

Hope this answered your question too @ David Viran

 

[GeneralLedge]

Answer this with full detail and I will jump on the train of miis with alternate sets.

If you were serious about jumping on, you wouldn't need to hide behind a strawman to do it.

 

[Judo777]

I noticed that alot of people don't actually DI or know how to DI helicpter kick. It's the same thing with zss's up b they kill so much earlier when not DIed properly.

Well thankfully, I have pretty great DI, so this is not the case for me. the issue is brawlers air speed is so great that the fairs easily carry you to the ledge or past it before the helicopter kicks connects.

As I said I found ways, to DI the moves to make the kick not kill quite as early, as well as making it much more difficult to connect the parts of the combo, but with proper reading of the DI brawler can compensate and still make them combo. The player actually said, he was impressed by how well i was DI'ing his hits to make it tough on him.

I still won that set, (it was GFs best of 3 and winners finals as well best of 3) but he landed ridiculously early kills for about 6 stocks.

 

[mega4000]

Against Piston Punch, you'd want to again, do the exact opposite. Hold down and away from the stage.

Hold down and away from the stage? you mean, to the edge while holding diagonal down?

If you were serious about jumping on, you wouldn't need to hide behind a strawman to do it.

The guy took the time to show every single tech with videos and explain how to counter every single possible combination. Maybe if you people took the time to make a guide how to counter every single aspect of the mii, more people would jump the train. Plus with all this thing he talked, I realize this:
1. It can counter diddy kong and rosalina
2. The helicopter kick is respectable and makes a lot of awesome combos
So why not?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Maybe if you people took the time to make a guide how to counter every single aspect of the mii, more people would jump the train.

You're more than welcome to, if it's as important as you make it seem.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Hold down and away from the stage? you mean, to the edge while holding diagonal down?

I believe so, Vectoring feels like its still in this game, just weaker, so holding down helps, mix that with holding away from the stage so that you can veer your character towards the corner of the screen, giving you the furthest possible distance to keep your character inside the game's Box.

I noticed this when I was playing with my friend showing him the Puff vs PP Brawler matchup. Jigglypuff is the only character to die via One Inch Punch from a d-throw on FD at 0%. However, one of the times he DIied it to the top right corner of the stage and survived, which I'd believe he'd achieve by holding down and away.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

As someone who has been heavily involved in the competitive Pokemon scene, including on Smogon, for years, I can tell you that Gen VI Smogon OU is probably the worst OU there has been out of every generation. The reason? They're too banhappy. Almost everything they suspect test gets banned. Sure, there are some legitimately broken things, like Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Gengar, but when they start banning stuff like Aegislash and Swagger, it's clear that there is a problem with the banning process. And what is the result of all these bans? Landorus-T is way overcentralizing. The metagame is completely based on stall, and it's boring.

Now how does this apply to Smash Bros? Well, in a game with a hell of a lot fewer characters than Pokemon, going crazy with bans will impede progress in the metagame. More variety is always a good thing, and we don't want to eliminate that.

In addition, when you start banning stuff for literally no reason, it makes a mockery of your community. Smogon is the laughingstock of the competitive Pokemon scene for all of their ridiculous bans. Banning Miis would put our community to shame.

I second every sentence in this post. I unfortunately never owned an original DS, so I didn't get to actively participate in the Pokemon metagame during the 4th & 5th generations, but I finally got to get back in with X/Y... and I didn't stay with Smogon for long (I left after Mega Lucario's ban and went straight to doing Battle Spot/VGC only). Granted, I've always preferred Doubles ever since their invention, so I didn't even do OU all that much in comparison, but I could tell that the bans were only going to get worse & more frequent, therefore ironically creating more centralization whilst stifling creativity by crafting a safe environment, and I didn't want any part of that.

Anyway, where I'm going with this is that I wouldn't want this kind of thing to happen with the competitive Smash community, especially since I just got into it very recently -- I'm talking late 2013 recently. I highly doubt that banning Miis would lead to the banning of other characters, but it would set a precedent for the Smash 4 community being willing to ban things for no reason, and it could possibly lead to customs being banned (potentially even as a side-event), and that would be a tragic misstep.

I see no reason for Miis to be banned in tournament play. Online it makes sense because they're basically all we would ever see, since, A) kids playing would choose them so that they can play as "themselves" in Smash, and, B) everyone else would either be Hitler or have penis faces, so it was wise of the development team to do what they did there. In tournaments, however, all banning them does is remove perfectly viable & non-broken options for people to choose from, all for the sake of... what? Seriously, there's not a single good reason that I can think of to list there. It's a ludicrous concept.

I believe so, Vectoring feels like its still in this game, just weaker, so holding down helps, mix that with holding away from the stage so that you can veer your character towards the corner of the screen, giving you the furthest possible distance to keep your character inside the game's Box.

I noticed this when I was playing with my friend showing him the Puff vs PP Brawler matchup. Jigglypuff is the only character to die via One Inch Punch from a d-throw on FD at 0%. However, one of the times he DIied it to the top right corner of the stage and survived, which I'd believe he'd achieve by holding down and away.

Wait, so you're saying that DI is most effective when the analog is held in the complete opposite direction that was optimal in Brawl?

My brain is full of ****.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Wait, so you're saying that DI is most effective when the analog is held in the complete opposite direction that was optimal in Brawl?

My brain is full of ****.

No, that's not what I'm saying. You would do this in Brawl too. If a move kills you upwards, like Piston punch, you want to move horizontally as much as you can to avoid any additional vertical height. The Smash Bros stages are shaped like boxes, naturally, the farthest blastzone away from you is the corner, so you would want to go there. Think of DIing Piston punch the same way you'd DI Snake's U-tilt.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

No, that's not what I'm saying. You would do this in Brawl too. If a move kills you upwards, like Piston punch, you want to move horizontally as much as you can to avoid any additional vertical height. The Smash Bros stages are shaped like boxes, naturally, the farthest blastzone away from you is the corner, so you would want to go there. Think of DIing Piston punch the same way you'd DI Snake's U-tilt.

The optimal direction in Brawl was upwards towards the stage. You said the optimal direction in this game is down and away from the stage.

 

[Jigglymaster]

The optimal direction in Brawl was upwards towards the stage. You said the optimal direction in this game is down and away from the stage.

Again, I was only referring to Piston Punch and other vertical killing moves, not DI in general. Would you really DI snake's U-tilt up and towards the stage? No, you'd die.

The DI you're thinking of is when you're knocked horizontally.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

Again, I was only referring to Piston Punch and other vertical killing moves, not DI in general. Would you really DI snake's U-tilt up and towards the stage? No, you'd die.

The DI you're thinking of is when you're knocked horizontally.

Oh, wow, I didn't even realize that's what you were talking about.

Welp.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Well thankfully, I have pretty great DI, so this is not the case for me. the issue is brawlers air speed is so great that the fairs easily carry you to the ledge or past it before the helicopter kicks connects.

As I said I found ways, to DI the moves to make the kick not kill quite as early, as well as making it much more difficult to connect the parts of the combo, but with proper reading of the DI brawler can compensate and still make them combo. The player actually said, he was impressed by how well i was DI'ing his hits to make it tough on him.

I still won that set, (it was GFs best of 3 and winners finals as well best of 3) but he landed ridiculously early kills for about 6 stocks.

Judo does have really good DI and I'm the Mii Brawler in this case. Shoutouts to Dapuffster for posting about Helicopter Kick about a week before said tourney.

Potential rules regarding Mii are the only reason I don't invest more time in that character. I still don't have a true main in Smash 4 because of this. It'd be nice for a general consensus to be reached sometime, regardless of the outcome.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Another thing:

When you create Mii, you and your opponent can see which moves you're putting on to them. So even though PP and HK require different DI, you as the player will know what the Brawler is running beforehand.

I'm happy to see EVO running customs too.

 

[Judo777]

Another thing:

When you create Mii, you and your opponent can see which moves you're putting on to them. So even though PP and HK require different DI, you as the player will know what the Brawler is running beforehand.

I'm happy to see EVO running customs too.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that is the case for all custom move tourneys. All the ones i have participated in (3 i think) players are required to disclose what customs they are playing before the match starts.

It would be dumb to lose a match because you aren't sure if the bowser bomb coming at you is the one that trips, or the one that breaks shields.

 

[Boigahs]

Unless a character is legitimately broken, they shouldn't be banned. The only reason Mii's could be banned is due to technical / set-up reasons, and those have already been resolved.
Banning a character just because you think no one plays them is absurd. Might as well ban Kirby in Melee.