Ruleset Changes Poll

[Yobolight]

question for thegreginator, clubba, yobo and nintendude:

what happened in the last three months for you to want to ban hyrule now?

I became a significantly more defensive and campy player and I determined that in certain matchups their are strategic strong points on Hyrule that are nearly impossible to assail, thereby making it stupid to ever leave them.

I think that is bad for the game.

 

[mixa]

I played a match against battlecow and decided to pick Hyrule. He was pika vs. my falcon and he literally did not move from the far left side of the left platform for the entire game. The first few stocks I went down there and it was pretty much impossible to avoid him bthrowing to a quick gimp. After that happened to me a few times I stayed on the right side of the stage and gave him every opportunity to approach but he never did. No joke our match lasted 20 minutes and it was the most infuriating match I've played

That's hilarious.
Battlecow knows that his vote doesn't count, lobbying counts way more.

 

[thegreginator]

I mean regardless of Battlecow's intentions, the fact is the strategy worked. Thus to me it represented a way in which the stage was broken.

 

[Karajan]

Don't ban hyrule. Think of the peruvians! That could discourage them from coming to apex.

Edit:

Sensei: Hyrule counterpick, Add Timer, 4 stocks,
Fireblaster : Ban Hyrule, Add Timer, No more stalling rule
SuPeRbOoM : Ban Hyrule,
Nintendude1189 : Ban Hyrule, 4 stocks, forcefully enforce stalling rule
thegreginator : Ban Hyrule, Ban Timer, No more stalling rule
BL!TZ : Ban Hyrule, 4 stocks,
clubbadubba : Ban Hyrule, Add Timer, No more stalling rule
SilentShottt : Ban Hyrule, 4 stocks, forcefully enforce stalling rule
Yobolight : Ban Hyrule, Ban Timer, No more stalling rule
¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane : Ban Hyrule, Ban Timer, 4 stocks, No more stalling rule
breakthrough : Ban Hyrule, Add Timer, No more stalling rule
Han Solo : Add Timer,
bloodpeach: Add Timer, No more stalling rule
Sedda : Add Timer,
A$: 4 stocks, forcefully enforce stalling rule
prisonchild: 4 stocks, No more stalling rule
Karajan: No more stalling rule
IsmaR: Hyrule counterpick, Add Timer,
Makiki: Ban Timer, forcefully enforce stalling rule

 

[Yobolight]

Don't ban hyrule. Think of the peruvians! That could discourage them from coming to apex.

I think it has been established that the Peruvians will not be coming to Apex due to cost/ travel complications/ etc

Japan on the other hand has shown a good deal of interest in Apex 2014, and what better way to entice them than to ban Hyrule?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

3 things:
Random question for many of you: How are you going to enforce a stalling rule with no timer?

We don't need to switch to 4 stocks if Hyrule isn't banned. No other stage has that issue.

If you are also posting for a more explicit stalling rule, what would that rule be?

 

[prisonchild]

Japan on the other hand has shown a good deal of interest in Apex 2014, and what better way to entice them than to ban Hyrule?

yeah, yeah. then maybe we could throw on a character lock, make it single elimination with four stocks and DL only. should probably use the (J) version too just to be safe.

I can see the invitation now: "America proud to host Kanto 2014!"




get a grip yobo, changing our ruleset should have nothing to do with other countries.

 

[bloodpeach]

Since no one is really doing it, im gonna clarify and justify my stances. Maybe it'll catch on.

Hyrule: Keep (for now)
Leave as is for now. Campy, long matches have happened on other stages. I dont think hyrule is problem and so I do not think it should be banned at this stage. How a timer would effect play on Hyrule shouldn't be considered until a tourney is run where that actually happens.

Timer: Yes
Like fire said, all other competive fighting games have a timer. I think we should too. As long as the timer is set high enough that timeouts are a risky and infrequently used strategy, I think it will have a positive effect on the meta, logistics and entertainment value by elminating 15-min camp-fests.

4 Stocks: Eh...
Our matches aren't very long if no one goes full power defensive. I think 4 stocks might be too short for matches between combo-heavy characters like Falcon and Yoshi. Also, if a match takes 15 minutes with 5 stocks, it will take ~12 minutes with 4; I don't think this addresses the problem at hand.

Stalling Rule: No
This rule is never actually enforced and proper enforcement would require a trained, impartial judge for every match which I don't think the community can provide. Even then controversial decisions or judging errors coudl occur. There is a reason why most judged competetive events use a panel, not single judges.

 

[mixa]

Here's my official take on the MATTER:

i am 100% in support of a hyrule-banned tournament, simply for the sake of more data

 

[Cobrevolution]

yobo we shouldn't have to sacrifice our stage list or ruleset merely for the sake of the peruvians or the japanese. i don't think they'd do that for us.

 

[Karajan]

My stance:
1) Get rid of stalling rule

Reasoning:
**** rules

 

[Nintendude]

question for thegreginator, clubba, yobo and nintendude:

what happened in the last three months for you to want to ban hyrule now?

I've always been torn between the Hyrule CP camp and the Hyrule banned camp. Previously I voted for Hyrule CP. I guess some of the recent events related to Hyrule finally pushed me more in the Hyrule ban direction.

I've never supported Hyrule as a neutral though, at least in recent years. I only legalized Hyrule at my events because, as past polls have shown, the community supports Hyrule legality. If the community has flipflopped on this issue I will gladly ban it for Apex.

 

[prisonchild]

I've always been torn between the Hyrule CP camp and the Hyrule banned camp. Previously I voted for Hyrule CP. I guess some of the recent events related to Hyrule finally pushed me more in the Hyrule ban direction.

I've never supported Hyrule as a neutral though, at least in recent years. I only legalized Hyrule at my events because, as past polls have shown, the community supports Hyrule legality. If the community has flipflopped on this issue I will gladly ban it for Apex.

fair enough.

what would be the process for stage selection if hyrule is banned?

 

[bloodpeach]

The only fair thing would be
Neutral: DL
CP: Congo, Peaches, Hyrule (if CP, not ban)

 

[madrush21]

What if we did something similar to the Kansas brawl ruleset for stages. The idea is not to ban more stages to solve an issue, but to leave stages legal and let the winner of the first match receive more bans.

So what if we left hyrule legal and the winner of the first match gets a ban?

Just another idea, wondering what people think about this option

 

[clubbadubba]

question for thegreginator, clubba, yobo and nintendude:

what happened in the last three months for you to want to ban hyrule now?

The fact that matches took 10+ minutes to finish and at one point a timer was implemented. I think hyrule without the option to win by running away is good enough from a competitive standpoint. However, since a timer seems to be necessary, I think hyrule is no longer viable because running away becomes a very legitimate strategy. If a timer is not instituted, I'm fine with hyrule staying as is.

People who are for hyrule should realize that they can still gentleman's agreement to play on hyrule even if its banned. If hyrule is banned I'd gentleman there against someone I knew would not play to time out (and in return I wouldn't time out). If a timer exists and hyrule is legal, I will time people out when viable until a ban is in place because I don't want to one day have to play someone else on hyrule who is going to time ME out. I don't want to time people out. I hate the idea that people will do it on hyrule. But because I don't want it to happen to me I'll do it until its banned.

 

[Nintendude]

I've been thinking recently the gentleman's clause should be abolished but that's an argument for another day.

 

[clubbadubba]

I've been thinking recently the gentleman's clause should be abolished but that's an argument for another day.

I don't think that's a fight the TO's can win. If 2 players really want to the most you can do is DQ both players, which would be silly and knowing our community likely result in all kinds of backlash and probably a tournament where almost everyone decides to gentleman's to mushroom kingdom items on very high.

 

[Karajan]

I've been thinking recently the gentleman's clause should be abolished but that's an argument for another day.

you should stop thinking

 

[meowmeowrainbowkitty]

preface: I voted for timer, and I still believe a timer would help. (maybe that and hyrule CP)

however.. a problem with the timer that I can see is that we'd need to get a standardized "setting" for timers too.

points:
A) time. (probably 8min?)
B) placement of the timer> do we want both players to be able to see the timer? or will it just be held by a TO? and if only held by a TO on a cell phone, will the TO announce time left? ...and at what interval?
C) ties? Or separately, what if falcon dittos, both falcons at 2 stocks, 70%, but one falcon is being spiked to get to that 70%? Both are still on the screen, but you know the one being spiked is 100% going to die, had the game continued 1 second longer.


I also might just be thinking too far in advance. We still haven't decided that timer is the move we're going to make.

 

[B Link]

I'm too lazy to read anyone's arguments today, but here's my perspective on rule-set changes: I like the Hyrule counter-pick option. It seems like that would 1) lower set duration and 2) appease the numerous Hyrule lovers we have in our community.

I don't like the timer option -- I don't like feeling pressured to approach someone just because time is running out. Furthermore, there's that winning-player-runs-away-until-time-runs-out issue. I do, however, acknowledge that tournament time-deadlines/streaming deadlines are an issue. So, a certain level of compromise might be necessary for scheduling purposes.

I also don't mind 4 stock matches that much. I wouldn't miss out on a tourney just cuz we're doing 4 stocks.

 

[The Star King]

there should be a "no changes" option, just saying

anyway I don't feel strongly about any of these so I'm abstaining

 

[meowmeowrainbowkitty]

Yeah, I totally agree with BLink with the fact that even if stocks were changed to 4, I wouldn't miss out on a tourney or anything.

I do want to say that with a balanced timer, people shouldn't feel pressured to approach, assuming people still playing normally..i.e. normal games should take 4-5min or so. The only instance where people would be pressured to approach is when a match has reached like..7:30min, and both players are near in terms of stockcount/dmg. But BLink, you bring up a good point with winner-running-away-ness, as proven by jel/sheer/kefit?(whoever did the run/chase test on hyrule and came up with the 3.5min/stock), but I assume most of the players in the community aren't jerks and will actually play.

 

[Cobrevolution]

but I assume most of the players in the community aren't jerks and will actually play.

read clubba's stuff

 

[Kefit]

Adding a timer to SSB64 is not a feasible option for reasons I've written about at length in the past. It will also exacerbate stalling and viewer interest problems for reasons already pointed out in this thread.

Everyone knows my stance on Hyrule.

But BLink, you bring up a good point with winner-running-away-ness, as proven by jel/sheer/kefit?(whoever did the run/chase test on hyrule and came up with the 3.5min/stock), but I assume most of the players in the community aren't jerks and will actually play.

I am going to do everything within my power to win a competitive tournament match. If this means getting a stock advantage and then running in chase loops for seven minutes on Hyrule then I will do so. This will happen frequently with fast mobile characters like Pikachu, Fox, and Falcon, and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Greg, you're my dude, but this poll is biased.
There should be a no changes option. Hell I'd vote to make DL counterpick only if you made it an option.

Honesty, I had a 15 minute grueling match with M2K on hyrule, and it's still far and away my favorite stage. I've talked about why IMO Hyrule>>>>>DL a million times so I won't do it here, but If tournaments have ever run late, they were always do to the tournament not starting on time, or lack of set ups, people missing, etc. Never have long sets of Smash64 been the actual reason a tournament ran past the time the venue was open until. A set taking 30min is intense. Trying to change the rules cause you can't handle it, or playing like a ****ing sandy vag cause you want to push other people into changing the rules is detestable. This is our game. Our awesome ****ing game, but nevertheless a game. A game we play for the love, the pride, and the thrill. There isn't real money on the line, so I don't see how winning like a scared little scumbag(aka trying to time someone out) would ever be an option in anyone's mind. I think a TO should ban any player who ever tries to intentionally time someone out.

 

[Florence]

Greg, you're my dude, but this poll is biased.
There should be a no changes option. Hell I'd vote to make DL counterpick only if you made it an option.

Honesty, I had a 15 minute grueling match with M2K on hyrule, and it's still far and away my favorite stage. I've talked about why IMO Hyrule>>>>>DL a million times so I won't do it here, but If tournaments have ever run late, they were always do to the tournament not starting on time, or lack of set ups, people missing, etc. Never have long sets of Smash64 been the actual reason a tournament ran past the time the venue was open until. A set taking 30min is intense. Trying to change the rules cause you can't handle it, or playing like a ****ing sandy vag cause you want to push other people into changing the rules is detestable. This is our game. Our awesome ****ing game, but nevertheless a game. A game we play for the love, the pride, and the thrill. There isn't real money on the line, so I don't see how winning like a scared little scumbag(aka trying to time someone out) would ever be an option in anyone's mind. I think a TO should ban any player who ever tries to intentionally time someone out.

I don't see how you could ban someone for intentionally timing someone out. It would cause people with defensive styles M2K to get banned at every tournament, even though that's how they would play even without the timer. And that's how they love to play, so "winning like a scared little scumbag" would be the preferred option.

My favorite stage is Saffron, but I don't think it's tournament viable for the same reason as hyrule. People would need to change their styles to a more defensive one in order to compete with other defensive players. I don't think a timer would help this either as it would give defensive play an even greater edge, because as a defensive player you want the opponent to approach you anyway.

 

[BL!TZ]

Greg, you're my dude, but this poll is biased.
There should be a no changes option. Hell I'd vote to make DL counterpick only if you made it an option.

Honesty, I had a 15 minute grueling match with M2K on hyrule, and it's still far and away my favorite stage. I've talked about why IMO Hyrule>>>>>DL a million times so I won't do it here, but If tournaments have ever run late, they were always do to the tournament not starting on time, or lack of set ups, people missing, etc. Never have long sets of Smash64 been the actual reason a tournament ran past the time the venue was open until. A set taking 30min is intense. Trying to change the rules cause you can't handle it, or playing like a ****ing sandy vag cause you want to push other people into changing the rules is detestable. This is our game. Our awesome ****ing game, but nevertheless a game. A game we play for the love, the pride, and the thrill. There isn't real money on the line, so I don't see how winning like a scared little scumbag(aka trying to time someone out) would ever be an option in anyone's mind. I think a TO should ban any player who ever tries to intentionally time someone out.

Scrub talk at it's finest, lmao

Hyrule is ****, btw

 

[Cobrevolution]

Scrub talk at it's finest, lmao

Hyrule is ****, btw

didn't you lose to some unknown yoshi player at impulse? who are you to talk about scrubs lulz

btw if you think people who play for fun are scrubs, you are a complete idiot thanks



now on to something else that has been on my mind for a while

DOUBLE BLINDS

Scenario:

P1 and P2 sit down to a tournament match. P2 selects Falcon. P1, seeing that P2 has selected Falcon, opts to go Kirby, thus counterpicking P1's character before gameplay has even started.

I feel that this is EXTREMELY unfair to P2. Counterpicking should occur AFTER a match has been played (our Loser Picks Stage, Winner Picks Char, Loser Picks Char setup works nicely). The first match of a set should be as neutral as possible, should it not?

If we mandate double blinds, we COMPLETELY remove the possibility of the above scenario EVER happening

SK and Javi have said that double blinds are already required if a player asks for it. My counterargument is that if a player doesn't ask for it, s/he still should not be subjected to the possibility of being counterpicked before the game begins. Simply because a player does not "care" if s/he gets counterpicked is not a good reason to allow an unfair advantage to occur. While it is true that the player not asking for a double blind is doing his or herself a disservice, they should still be entitled to first match fairness.

 

[KnitePhox]

While it is true that the player not asking for a double blind is doing his or herself a disservice, they should still be entitled to first match fairness.

hence double blind

thanks.

 

[Cobrevolution]

knitephox pls

Simply because a player does not "care" if s/he gets counterpicked is not a good reason to allow an unfair advantage to occur.

That is, merely because my opponent does not give a damn if I CP his falcon with my kirby, that does not mean I should have the option to. This is completely unfair. There is no reason I should be allowed to do this.

One of the goals of a ruleset is to make the game as fair as possible for both players, and this, in my opinion, is one of those places unfairness occurs, however subtly.

A player does not "deserve" to be CP'd before a match starts because he has a nonchalant attitude about it. That's a poor way of looking at the scene's competition.

 

[MrMarbles]

I don't see how you could ban someone for intentionally timing someone out. It would cause people with defensive styles M2K to get banned at every tournament, even though that's how they would play even without the timer. And that's how they love to play, so "winning like a scared little scumbag" would be the preferred option.

My favorite stage is Saffron, but I don't think it's tournament viable for the same reason as hyrule. People would need to change their styles to a more defensive one in order to compete with other defensive players. I don't think a timer would help this either as it would give defensive play an even greater edge, because as a defensive player you want the opponent to approach you anyway.

There is a HUGE difference between playing defensively and playing to run out the timer

 

[mixa]

I think the government shouldn't interfere in our choi-- oh wait, wrong topic.

Anyway I've always wondered how exactly the double blind is done. From the player cam, it seems like no one's doing it lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

one player leans over and whispers his character choice in a bystander's ear (lovingly, with a small flick of the tongue). then the opponent picks their character, and the person who whispered picks his, with a nod from the bystander for verification that he did pick the character he said he was going to.

 

[mixa]

oooh, ok. I thought both players had to do it. makes sense.

 

[SheerMadness]

Bcow said camping the left side of hyrule was optimal vs me too.

We played a ton a friendlies where I approached him on the left side the entire match. I won every game.

Wasn't too hard to bait him into reacting then getting in.

Like I said the smarter player will win on hyrule in my experience. I have yet to experience any evidence suggesting camping is optimal and lower skill level players will beat higher skilled players solely due to camping.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

it's kinda crazy to me that hyrule is still legal. japan has it right.

also, i wouldn't mind congo i guess

but for the people saying that camping is going to be a problem on dreamland anyways -

all i have to say is that if you're getting camped on dreamland..... then you kind of deserve to get camped on dreamland. if you try to camp against me on DL, i will chase you down. any other good player can do the same; it's really not a viable option at high level play.

 

[NovaSmash]

you're all tourneyf@gs

but seriously, stop trying to ban hyrule

 

[thegreginator]

To people saying there should be a no change option: I completely agree. Didn't think ahead when making the poll. The imperfect but usable system I am operating under right now is that if someone votes for, say, using 4 stocks but goes out of their way not to vote on either banning or CPing Hyrule, then I am putting them in the "no change" camp for Hyrule. I think this makes sense.

There is more of a grey area when deciding whether abstaining from timer voting is the same as not wanting a timer, so I am open to suggestions here. I will let the raw data speak for itself and we can discuss how to interpret it.

Results through 35 peoples' votes: http://imgur.com/aRXpMYS

• 51% in favor of kicking Hyrule out of neutral stages
• 43% in favor of timer
• 26% in favor of 4 stocks
• 34% in favor of getting rid of stalling rule
  • 34% also want the stalling rule enforced more, with 31% under no vote / no change

The Hyrule enthusiastics making a comeback. Also shoutout to DC-NERD for voting both to use a timer and to ban a timer.

EDIT: Added an explanation to how votes are interpreted in the first post. Also pasted below

HOW VOTES ARE COUNTED: There are 4 categories of votes: Hyrule, timer, stocks and stalling rule. If you vote for one category but abstain from others, then an abstention will be interprested as follows

1. Hyrule: neutral stage (no change from current ruleset)
2. Timer: no (no change from current ruleset)
3. Stocks: 5 (no change from current ruleset)
4. Stalling rule: not enforced (no change from current ruleset)

If these defaults don't represent what you intended by abstaining, then vote for the category specifically or explain your position in a comment.

 

[clubbadubba]

With regards to double blind picks, if the person chooses to open themselves up to unbalanced/unfair strategies then its fine. This is the same as a Ness player agreeing to gentleman to Saffron. Should we make a rule that says you can't gentleman to Saffron if you're Ness? No way. Rules are meant to protect those who want protecting, not force protection on people who don't want it.