Guide Roy's Match-Up Chart thread

[Sethlon]

I agree with rolling. Roy doesn't have anything that comes out fast enough to poke through the holes in fox's shield pressure...best to just buffer a roll away ASAP. Counter out of shield is too slow, unless they're doing something silly like shine -> full hop -> drop nair -> repeat, or just uptilting your shield over and over ().

Against the nair, WD back is good, but anything roy has will beat it, if you can get it out in time. DED will win, as I mentioned, as will fair. If you're attempting WD back -> fsmash, why not try the ftilt? It's faster so hopefully your success rate will increase. Of course you could try jab too.

I dunno, I feel like wavedashing in general is just too slow to combat it. You have to already be WDing before they even start to run in to nair you...and I mean, I'm okay with being psychic some of the time, but all of the time puts a strain on you, yeah?
Ftilt also seems kinda skewed in risk vs reward (if it works, they get a bit of damage and reset, if it fails you're likely to get combo'd for lots of damage).
I've tried relying more on dashdancing instead, which is also why I've been chiseling out the pivot fsmash.

What's the best thing to do when we get shined? As one of the few characters who can tech the shine, I'm a little curious as our possibilities of response here.

IMO the best option is DI away and tech away. If you tech in, the momentum still keeps you at about the same place as where you were shined (which is right where fox wants you). Teching away makes it nearly impossible to combo, unless you happen to be close to the ledge.

Also will throw out that getting grabbed and uthrown at 0% we can counter before fox does anything.

Hah! Cool. I knew you could make it difficult for fox to combo (jump to dodge the upsmash, fall to dodge the uair), but for some reason I've never thought to use counter.

 

[exarch]

I've pretty frequently gotten counter OOS on falco shield pressure, so even though it's slow, it can work. Problem with fox is shine is 4% and nair is small damage too. It's not like turning around the 12% dair or 8% shine on falco. Fox's better recovery also hurts risk vs reward. Counter OOS is good because they're never around the hitbox like they can be for grabbing. Definitely worth some consideration even vs fox.

Vs nair you can always CC grab it. CCing nair is what the rest of the cast does when they get caught by fox. Pivot fsmash I've found to be nothing short of miraculous vs peach, but much less so vs the more mobile characters. But if you got it, do it.

Teching away should be enough to for a reset in most situations (unless you're backed toward the edge.) I was thinking something more like standing tech->dtilt, which may give us some unexpected free dtilts vs fox. I'm inconsistent with teching the shine, but it's definitely something I'm looking to try soon.

So that would put foxes in the following situation when approaching Roy:

• Approach on ground, get dtilted
• Approach with nair, get CC grabbed
• Approach with drillshine, get a reset at best, or dtilted at worst.

Obviously not that simple, but there's good responses to fox's three main approach methods.

Counter is really good. Really good. Hard to use, but definitely worth implementing far more than we have as a group. When you get the counter off on Fox at 0, next time a good fox grabs you, just jump away. Fox should be scared and waiting for your counter after the first time it happens. Then you have to rely on being psychic to know when to counter or not.

Counter also has huge applications in the samus matchup, as she hates grab. It netted me my last kill to beat III on YS a week or so ago. But we'll talk about samus when we get there.

 

[t3h Icy]

Wow, time has gone by so fast.

Like Roy's stocks.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Also will throw out that getting grabbed and uthrown at 0% we can counter before fox does anything.

Seriously? I did not know this... seems like a one time thing though. If they predict that counter, they can probably uthrow and like charge an usmash or something and just watch you fall into it and die.

 

[Sethlon]

I've pretty frequently gotten counter OOS on falco shield pressure, so even though it's slow, it can work. Problem with fox is shine is 4% and nair is small damage too. It's not like turning around the 12% dair or 8% shine on falco. Fox's better recovery also hurts risk vs reward. Counter OOS is good because they're never around the hitbox like they can be for grabbing. Definitely worth some consideration even vs fox.

So I went to a big (for dallas) tournament this weekend, and I believe that despite my dislike of the theory of using counter OoS, in practice I agree with you lol. It is quite nice when it lands, and while its not possible against perfect shield pressure, it is nice when you can spot the holes. My OoS game is pretty weak, I'll have to look more into it to see when its actually applicable.

Vs nair you can always CC grab it. CCing nair is what the rest of the cast does when they get caught by fox.

I forget about CC grab sometimes. I do it sometimes on reaction, but then its just CC -> shield -> shield grab, which is super slow. I'm too used to the derpy 'hold down and mash A button for crouch cancel dtilt', straight grab is another thing i'll have to practice.

Teching away should be enough to for a reset in most situations (unless you're backed toward the edge.) I was thinking something more like standing tech->dtilt, which may give us some unexpected free dtilts vs fox. I'm inconsistent with teching the shine, but it's definitely something I'm looking to try soon.

Ah, gotcha. TBH I'm not even sure where Roy goes if he neutral techs the shine, don't think I've ever actually done that before lol. Testing testing!

When you get the counter off on Fox at 0, next time a good fox grabs you, just jump away. Fox should be scared and waiting for your counter after the first time it happens. Then you have to rely on being psychic to know when to counter or not.

If you counter after the upthrow at 0% and they upsmash, do you know what happens?

I tested upthrow -> short hop nair vs counter, and the nair just whiffs, leaving Roy in a terrible spot. I thought the short hop nair was guaranteed, but now that I think about it, you might be able to just jump out.

 

[exarch]

I'm too used to the derpy 'hold down and mash A button for crouch cancel dtilt'

Just change to the new derpy 'hold down and shield and mash A button for CC grab.

For shine techs, I watched a bunch of axe vs lucky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7JjF3Is414#t=15m37s
In the 3 sets they played, this is really the only example, and it's comes from 4 previous games of going into a spacing reset after shines. (Axe catches lucky because lucky goes into techchase mode after this shine.) But it's a place to start from...

As for the counter at 0:

• It's been a bit, but iirc it counters the usmash and the sh uair. If they're a bad fox and go for the fh uair, they'll miss you. Apparently if they attempt sh nair, you'll be left open too. In my experience, most foxes go for one of the first two.
• It may be possible to DI the uthrow at 0 and jump away from all harm. But not DIing the uthrow is something I do intentionally most of the time. (Imo makes for easier smash DI.)
• And yes, after a successful counter out of uthrow, I would recommend just jumping away from uthrows, instead of countering again. Foxes tend to remember their guaranteed combo isn't guaranteed.

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More questions: how does Roy avoid shine spikes? What is your approach to edgeguarding?

 

[camerino1]

Mine is personally b-air's and flareblade when I'm not afraid of being hit in the start-up lag. B-airs if they are closer to the stage though, so I can l-cancel and then follow up with another. It has good hitboxes that cover most of the ledge when SH'ed. Just my way to go about it, though.

Shinespikes... I don't have to deal with them, I instead have to deal with Falco's...

 

[darkoblivion12]

More questions: how does Roy avoid shine spikes? What is your approach to edgeguarding?

shine spikes: because fox isn't scared of our upB, we can be a lot more vulnerable than marth. also because of the startup lag, i've gotten shine spiked plenty of times after the upB has already started. so how to avoid it? well, against a really roy savvy fox, your best bet is going to be a wall riding recovery and maybe wall teching the shine. otherwise if you suspect they will try for a shine spike, you can try to DED1 them or use 2nd jump and fair. last option is premature upB, which can get very predicable, and get you punished. needless to say, we dont like being offstage against fox.

my edgeguarding is very marth. react with jab to sideB, or predict where they start sideB and fair them out of it. counter if the angle on upB is predictable. and high recovery upB gets covered by fsmash. usually if fox is trying to sweetspot the edge from above, and i know it, i will throw out an fsmash that covers the edge. edge canceled sideB on a platform i will hang out, out of range of a dair in front of the platform and wait for them to fall into my fsmash or something.

 

[exarch]

My normal approach to when I am on the stage and get shined off at early percents is to FF and upb to the edge as fast as possible. Although I've been edgehogged for it at low %'s, foxes trying to chase for a shinespike usually get obliterated by the upb, while those who stay on the stage don't gain anything either.

Maybe I should refine the edgeguarding question more, let's split it into 5 cases of 2 types:
Type A below the ledge
1. Fox is directly below the ledge of the stage in his upb, what do you do?
2. Fox is below the ledge, somewhere farther away from the stage firefoxing, what do you do in this case?
Type B above the ledge
3. Fox is not below the ledge, and illusions either at you or at the ledge, what now?
4. Fox is not below the edge, and illusions high, how do you kill him?
5. Fox is not below the edge, and firefoxes high, how will you take his stock?

Feel free to answer any/all of them, or if you have a great idea for just one, post that.

Also, Roy has a severely underdeveloped gimp game for a low tier. I like fsmashing in the middle of CG's when I'm close to the edge of the stage and fox is DIing toward it. I also suspect throwing fox off and dtilting him out of his second jump should net a kill, even if it's after 5 more dtilts. Maybe if we counter the ledgehop dair, (or bait a second jump attack from off stage), we can work a kill from that? What gimp setups do you use? Any new methods of gimps you can think of now?

 

[Sethlon]

IIRC, if fox shines you near the edge of the stage, you can just DI down and towards the stage to snap to the ledge instantly. Much better than having to double jump/upB/recover in general, obviously.

Maybe I should refine the edgeguarding question more, let's split it into 5 cases of 2 types:
Type A below the ledge
1. Fox is directly below the ledge of the stage in his upb, what do you do?
2. Fox is below the ledge, somewhere farther away from the stage firefoxing, what do you do in this case?

1 is pretty obvious, walk up to the edge and get in position to counter. Smart foxes will be riding along the wall as long as possible, so against them you have to hesitate a bit on the counter.

2 is a bit trickier. From this distance smart foxes can upB straight up, so if you try to counter they grab the ledge for free. It usually boils down to a simple "Am I going to counter or am I going to wait and do nothing" 50/50.
Fun part comes whenever you have enough set up time; if you're already at the edge (like, say, after jabbing their overB) as they start their upB, you can run off the ledge, fast fall, and do a double jump fair sheik style; the move knocks them down pretty far despite its lack of hitstun, and it'll often finish them off.

Type B above the ledge
3. Fox is not below the ledge, and illusions either at you or at the ledge, what now?
4. Fox is not below the edge, and illusions high, how do you kill him?
5. Fox is not below the edge, and firefoxes high, how will you take his stock?

These are a bit tricker. Illusion straight at you is countered by jab, but if they sweetspot the ledge perfectly the jab will whiff. One way I've tried fighting sweetspot illusion is with run off doublejump fair to hit them them out of its start up, but its really scary; fox will often still live because of his huge upB distance, and if you screw up against falco you get spiked and gimped yourself instead.

4 is hard, assuming they Illusion onto platforms. Only real way to kill them off of that IMO is waveland -> dsmash. At lower percents I guess waveland -> grab would be nice for the chain grab/fsmash potential.

5 is really hard, I almost never get decent edgeguards off of those positions. If you somehow get up to them fast enough to fair the start up, they have plenty of time to simply over/upB again. If you set up for fsmash covering the ledge, they go to the top platform and you'll never catch them, and if you're not covering the ledge like a pro goalie they get the ledge for free.



Counter vs fox's ledge hop isn't worth it IMO, wavedash back fsmash is safer and works just as well. When they're on the ledge I usually just sit at a safe distance and pressure with dtilt/fair; if they get fair'd, its back to the ledge, and if they get dtilted you can possibly fsmash/flare blade them for the finish.

Feel free to answer any/all of them, or if you have a great idea for just one, post that.

Also, Roy has a severely underdeveloped gimp game for a low tier. I like fsmashing in the middle of CG's when I'm close to the edge of the stage and fox is DIing toward it. I also suspect throwing fox off and dtilting him out of his second jump should net a kill, even if it's after 5 more dtilts. Maybe if we counter the ledgehop dair, (or bait a second jump attack from off stage), we can work a kill from that? What gimp setups do you use? Any new methods of gimps you can think of now?[/QUOTE]

 

[exarch]

2nd time I've lost a post due to randomly hitting the back button. /pissed

1) Agree with counter. At a certain depth the wall ride won't be significant compared to a straight vertical shot, so counter covers all options. If they're higher up, I wonder if you could run off reverse DED1, 2nd jump fair, to drop them lower to set up for the next counter. (Just have to make sure to not hit them with upb.) Most of the time, the reason they'd be shallow and close to the edge was because you just jabbed them out of an illusion, so you should be close enough to do this.

2) I'm more apt to fsmash, since I've had too many occasions where I counter nothing. But I'm not satisfied with a 50/50 chance at a successful edgeguard. Effective characters kill fox when he's lost his 2nd jump, so I'm suggesting two options:

• Dtilt to cover firefox aimed at you, which allows you to fsmash if he doesn't. This mimics Falco's dair/dsmash edgeguard. Problem is not trading dtilt with firefox, but I hope that move has enough priority to beat firefox with proper spacing, (I just need to learn where that is, because I don't know it now.) Roy may have to dtilt from farther back on the level and walk to fsmash.
• Jump off, get in his face and counter. Cut off his options. Now we pretend we're Mario/Doc and cape the **** out of his upb. Of course, cool down lag on counter could be problematic, but I think with the 2nd jump, Roy should be able to clean up the positions which cause him trouble otherwise. Too far down, and the dtilt/fsmash gets easier to time and set up.

Both of these options should be strictly superior to the guessing games we try to play. Should increase successful edgeguards significantly higher than 50/50. I'm trying to make a mental note to be more aggressive with offstage counters vs fox; of the two options I mentioned, I think that one would be the easier to do, as well as being more flashy. Win-win.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, there's probably no chance that we'll be able to recover after a counter below the stage, is there?

 

[Sethlon]

Counter has a lot of lag afterwards. IIRC roy can't survive a ledge drop counter, I highly doubt he'd be able to survive dropping down on top of a fox. Maybe as a stock sacrifice to make sure fox eats it, but that would be the extent of it.

I like the idea of falling off reverse DED, but I wonder if Roy would actually be able to follow up with a double jump fair.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I feel like you wouldn't be able to recover after the double jump fair below the stage.

Also the lowest point you can recover from counter with is right above the ledge i believe, otherwise there's way too much lag on it

I'm scared to go below the stage as roy.

 

[camerino1]

Has anyone tried to make a half-decent off-stage game for Roy? There has to be something we can do off stage that's scary and counts as a combo of some sort. I know that f-air > side-b > jump + f-air > up-b can be done off-stage... if it means anything, I dunno.

Edit: I now realize he can f-air and b-air twice off stage and make it back. I guess the only issue is that they have such little knockback...

Edit2: But you all knew that... blehhhhhhhhh.

 

[Sethlon]

Yeah, I've always been an advocate of offstage fair/flare blade for edgeguarding. Gotta know the places to put them though, terrible things can happen if you screw up.

For fox recovering below the ledge; instead of run off reverse overB, I wonder if run off double jump Bair would work too?

 

[exarch]

Bair can be used like flareblade from the edge, (meaning Roy can ledgehop away from the stage and bair/flareblade, and just recover.)
bair's iasa is 43, fair's is 35. Definitely be able to go lower with fair.

Also I remember the same with counter. Unfortunate. Guess we'll have to work on more successful on stage edgeguarding when he's below the level.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I think bair below the stage will kill you unless it's barely below the stage.

So just some idea's for punishing below the stage recovery that i've tinkered with.
ledge invincibility->ledgehop uair->fsmash
this covers any options that end above the ledge. this is the most useful of all of these.

ledge invincibility->ledgehop dair
this covers any options below that ledge with the potential to meteor if spaced properly. however, even the normal sweetspot knockback is pretty good.

if you're onstage, space a dair to hit with the tipper through the ground and with the very end offstage.
this covers any low recovery and can land them in fsmash position or barely below the stage upBing.

also tippered dtilt is legit as an edgeguard.

 

[exarch]

-> Roy sticks his left hand out before throwing dtilt. Should definitely help with spacing when edgeguarding.

I like the dair edgeguard ideas, seem like they would be pretty effective. Although the lcancel time of 16 is more than the 10 frames between the end of dtilt's hitbox and the iasa frame.

3. Fox is not below the ledge, and illusions either at you or at the ledge, what now?

Does DED1 hit lower than jab? If so we could use that to cover both illusion options...

Again, we can dtilt illusions aimed at the edge. Supposedly, it's best to expect the illusion to edge and react to everything else (including firefox variants/higher illusions.) So prep for that, and other people (not me) should be able to jab if it's aimed at Roy. Dsmash could be used for edge illusions, but unless it's tippered, I don't see it killing. (And spacing for the tip would allow for horizontal sweetspotting around it; my gut tells me dtilt is best for stopping ledge illusion...)

Could also SHfair/dtilt to cover these two options, but having to jump would cut out opportunities for other edgeguards, i think.

 

[darkoblivion12]

what do you do to punish a recovery to a platform?

 

[exarch]

Basically I agree with Sethlon on this one, assuming the illusion. (Firefox to platforms is unpunishable.)

Get up there and waveland dsmash/grab. Grab can lead to f/dthrow & techchases (If they're still DIing in and you throw them toward the ledge, you should be able to get a lot out of it.) Uthrow is good at lower %s. Fsmash if you can get up there in time (probably not.) Dsmash would definitely be good, especially if you can space for the tip.

If you can't get up there in time, I was thinking the best aerial punishers would probably be uair/dair, as DI isn't going to push them out of your range, and CCing it should knock fox over for techchase.

If they're making a habit of edgecancelling the illusion, note what they do after the edgecancel. If it's aerials/bair (and it probably is,) either counter it, or space a fsmash on it. Airdodge, wait it out. Double jump, um no ideas on this one, seems pretty unpunishable.

--------------------
Firefox high, if you read it, I'd suggest jumping out and countering. (Although in preliminary experimenting with this, the counter seems pretty easy for fox to get around.) But any aerial isn't going to hit him hard enough--unless he's at 170%.

Outside of that option, I'd prioritize forcing him away from the platforms and to the ledge. Zoning fox on the edge is a much better position than dealing with him on the platforms. When this is done well, Fox can start to feel reeeally trapped when he's got the ledge grabbed.

----------------------------------
Feel free to continue to comment on edgeguarding, but I also want to start the next topic. Idea given to me by watching Sethlon: Tech chasing. Setups, options, maneuvers, anything and everything to do with them.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I usually use usmash to punish landing on a platform(cept dreamland cuz **** that stage).

Most people I play against who ledgecancel illusion usually jump after it because it does seem unpunishable vs roy. More work needs to be done here.

 

[camerino1]

If we could figure out how to ledge cancel up-b properly, might we be able to get them with that on stages like Dreamland, because of how high it goes? Is this even a viable option at any point?

 

[Sethlon]

I think short hop bair is a bit underlooked for hitting people on platforms. It does good damage (9%), has more oomph than all other aerials, and crouch cancelling doesn't ruin it.

Edge cancel upBs could work. Seems like it would definitely be good for knocking people out of crouch cancelling. Damage is pretty bad though, and screwing up the edge cancel would leave you in hot water. I can't seem to get it to edge cancel into the ledge-wobbly-animation consistently, either.

Tech chasing I could write essays on. I'll drop some stuff here on it when I have time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My 2 cents.
[collapse=Flow Chart]

I get to the lower platform if he is anywhere above the platforms coming back from offstage. You can cover firefox up there with Full hop flare blade, jab/ftilt sideB at you, or chase him down above you with fair/bair/flare blade. If he drops lower, you get lower as well.
[/collapse]

 

[camerino1]

I'm prepared to say that we need one of these for every character

 

[darkoblivion12]

So i'd like to move into some of our harder matchups, I see a lot of room for improvement in our ganon and shiek matchup.

Let's go with shiek for now.

The big question: how do we not get grabbed and still punish appropriately.

(I'll answer this myself later, have a project to work on.)

 

[camerino1]

Shiek, hmmm. She's good at everything, so it's hard to get past her. I guess that the best thing to do to avoid grabs is to grab her first. Our grab range is a little better, and spacing our aerials isn't as helpful with the weaker tip. Other than this, I have nothing. Grabgrabgrabgrabgrab.

 

[BairJew]

Few brief questions about the puff mu. What % does up-b or reverse up-b kill puff. especially on yoshi's and poke. Also, are there any guaranteed combo's on puff, it seems that puff would need a lot of patience in this mu, making it hard for her to get in for a combo.

 

[camerino1]

Reverse blazer just kills her, without question on those stages, at 0%

 

[BairJew]

Damn, really? thats so ridiculous, is that why the mu is so bad for jiggs?

 

[odinNJ]

The problem is the move is laggy and you have to be right next to jiggs to do it, its cool, but not very practical

 

[camerino1]

Pretty much this. If whiffed, you get smacked by a Rest. So, it's either you or her dies, but her options other than this one are better than our other options.

 

[Sethlon]

Damn, really? thats so ridiculous, is that why the mu is so bad for jiggs?

The match up is actually pretty good for jiggs. Like OdinNJ says, the range on actually landing the reverse blazer is really bad, and not that fast start up. Only decent way to land it is doig it out of shield instead of a shield grab, and any good jiggs won't put themselves in a position where you can shield grab them.

Roy can kinda space her out with fair/DED/jab, but his pokes all do much less damage than hers, and she can kill from poking position.

 

[McNinja]

So it seems like this reverse up B thing only kills jiggs correct? It probably shouldn't be used in any other matchup? Or do I not know what I'm talking about?

 

[camerino1]

It can work on Pichu, Kirby and G&W on a few other stages. Jiggs is the only one that can on FD, though.

 

[BRLNK88]

I remember during doubles friendlies we all went random characters, I got Jiggs, one of my friends got Roy, he reverse blazered me on all 4 stocks...
>_>

 

[exarch]

I was able to experiment a bit with the jiggs matchup; when jiggs does her SH bair shenanigans, Roy can WD OOS and dsmash punish 100% of the time (for 21% dmg.) Probably could dtilt too, since dsmashing at lower percents can get Roy in trouble.

Also sheik I think of as a keep away game. She hardly has an approach game, so as long as Roy can keep her off of him, you're doing well. Roy also has a great CC game, so this works in our favor too. Really without the CG this match is very doable. But then FL sheiks are terrible.

 

[BairJew]

Woww that sucks for jiggs. What are the dthrow fsmash shenanigans that roy can do. Its probably just bad DI but I couldve sworn it was a given thing at certain %'s

 

[darkoblivion12]

dthrow fsmash works on anyone that DI's in.

so my thoughts on Roy vs shiek since I started this idea and never posted on it:

it seems to me that it's a lot like playing falcon vs shiek, where you're both just constantly trying to fish for grabs. unfortunately for us, shiek has needles to zone you out of areas you can grab her. if she is needle camping on a platform, as far as i can tell, approaching is very hard and can easily put you in a bad position. the safest routes are to get under that platform and waveland on, or approach over the top of the other platform. both of these are kinda risky, but can force her out of needle ****.

i'm going to put some more thought into this tonight, driving for 5 hours and then playing smash.

 

[BairJew]

Aight lol interested to hear what else you have to say about this, but yeah DIing is straight up bad half the time, but yeah gotta say roy would seem to have a problem against superrr campy shieks.