Guide Roy's Match-Up Chart thread

[t3h Icy]

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Roy's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

Moderator Edit:
Roy's matchups at a glance:
We're still working on these overall, but here's an update so you don't have to scour the thread
General consensus:
Bowser 55-45
CF 45-55
DK 50-50
Falco 40-60
Ganon 30-70
G&W 65-35
IC's 15-85
Mario 40-60
Pikachu 45-55
Samus 30-70
Yoshi 50-50
Y. Link 60-40

Disputed:
Doc 40-60 / 35-65
Fox 45-55 / 35-65
Jiggs 45-55 / 40-60
!Kirby 70-30 / 45-55!
Link 50-50 / 45-55
Luigi 40-60 / 30-70
Marth 45-55 / 35-65
!Mewtwo 50-50 / 35-65!
Ness 60-40 / 50-50
Peach 40-60 / 30-70
Pichu 70-30 / 60-40
Shiek 40-60 / 30-70
Zelda 50-50 / 40-60

We'll probably continue discussing these and never come to an agreement.

 

[darkoblivion12]

just to start with some bad matchups (personal opinion):

The nearly unwinnables:
ganon 20/80
shiek 20/80
samus 10/90
IC's 10/90

the hard ones:
jiggs 30/70
peach 30/70
marth 35/65
luigi ??/?? (i don't play luigis often)


Note: these are the matchups I find hard for roy, not hard for me. I'm trying to discount player skill differences and just assume 2 equally skilled players. personally i like marth/roy and think it's a much closer matchup than 35/65

 

[RaynEX]

just to start with some bad matchups (personal opinion):

The nearly unwinnables:
ganon 20/80
shiek 20/80
samus 10/90
IC's 10/90

the hard ones:
jiggs 30/70
peach 30/70
marth 35/65
luigi ??/?? (i don't play luigis often)


Note: these are the matchups I find hard for roy, not hard for me. I'm trying to discount player skill differences and just assume 2 equally skilled players. personally i like marth/roy and think it's a much closer matchup than 35/65

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that Ganon is harder for Roy than Marth/Peach? It seems like many of the CC-heavy characters have been listed under "nearly unwinnable" (for good reason), so I'd have expected Peach to be there as well. As we all know, Roy's general lack of knockback make CCing him a GREAT idea for more or less the whole cast, and Marth is no exception.

CC grab against a Roy, and he'll never feel the same again - assuming the Marth player knows how to combo properly. At least we can counter every move Ganon has and get some cheese kills.

 

[Ripple]

just to start with some bad matchups (personal opinion):

The nearly unwinnables:
ganon 30-70 counter helps a lot
shiek 20/80
samus 25/75
IC's 10/90

the hard ones:
jiggs 30/70
peach 30/70
marth 35/65
luigi 40-60

agreed with most. changed some of them.

rest of the cast =

Fox 35-65

falco 35-65

Falcon 45-55

Doc 40-60

mario- 40-60

pikachu 45-55

DK- 50-50

Link 45-55

Zelda 40-60

Mewtwo 40-60 mewtwo should literally run circles around roy, and even if he does land a hit, it shouldn't kill

y. link 45-55

G&W 60-40

yoshi 50-50 ?

pichu 60-40

bowser 55-45

ness 55-45

kirby 45-55

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that Ganon is harder for Roy than Marth/Peach? It seems like many of the CC-heavy characters have been listed under "nearly unwinnable" (for good reason), so I'd have expected Peach to be there as well. As we all know, Roy's general lack of knockback make CCing him a GREAT idea for more or less the whole cast, and Marth is no exception.

CC grab against a Roy, and he'll never feel the same again - assuming the Marth player knows how to combo properly. At least we can counter every move Ganon has and get some cheese kills.

ganon/sheik/ics have CG-death, marth/peach do not. and I feel its a little easier to actually get in on marth/ peach than ganon

 

[RaynEX]

I completely forgot Ganon could CG him. What was I thinking?

Yep, that would warrant being up there on the "nearly unwinnable" list. I wasn't thinking in terms of CGs for some reason.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure how Ganon really grabs Roy but sure I'll go with unwinnable just 'cuz all the cool kids are doing it.

 

[t3h Icy]

ICs 10/90
Jigglypuff 30/70
Marth 35/65
Peach 30/70
Sheik 20/80

Does Sethlon still visit here?

 

[RaynEX]

I'm not sure how Ganon really grabs Roy but sure I'll go with unwinnable just 'cuz all the cool kids are doing it.

How wouldn't he grab Roy?

lol Roy the king of keepaway and GDLK aerials. All Ganon has to do is swing in his general vicinity and corner him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Ganon is moving in for grabs against a cornered Roy with those tiny T-rex arms I'd think Roy would grab/hit him.

For Ganon to scare Roy effectively he has to kind of play a spacing game with his big arms and move around at a distance baiting things like Ganon always does. I'm just not sure I see the transition from big scary keep out game featuring dangerous moves that could kill a frail character like Roy at 0% with bad DI to this close-combat chain grab. Maybe if Ganon was fast and not super obvious? Or if Roy didn't have a dash speed? I dunno.

I would think that if Ganon tries to straight-up grab Roy then Roy's superior ground movement, bigger grab range, and tech chase would buttfuk poor Ganon.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Normally when I play ganons, they'll get 1 grab per game, generally leading to death or high percent.

@ripple:
falco is definitely harder than fox. 30/70 imo lasers are just the bane of my existence.
falcon is worse than that as well. roy gets combod so easily. it's pretty much pick a move, invent a combo. although i will give you that it's not nearly as bad as the other high tiers.
i would put anything that can range camp hardcore at 35/65 (doc, mario, pika, link, etc)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think if Ganon is only grabbing you once per game, other factors may be responsible for the matchup being abysmal. Like the fact that his moves kill you at sub-50% because of Roy's ridiculously amazing weight, fallspeed, and recovery combination. And his awesome aerials. And because crouch cancel is extremely effective against Ganon.

 

[darkoblivion12]

normally the flow of roy vs ganon, is both characters combo each other really hard, but ganon is super fat, can recover, auto ledgeguards roy with reverse uair, has a beastly CC game, and combos 0-death in 3 hits.

roy combos, has an above average CC game (which doesnt help when all of ganon's moves break CC), and has the magnetic grab. unfortunately his combos always are required to end in fsmash (which doesn't kill ganon), and he has to combo a lot harder to get a kill. that said, positives in the ganon matchup are the grab range and movespeed. but the negatives will **** you in the face (usually a negative is getting hit by a fair).

i actually find this matchup kinda fun. i guess it's kinda how spacies feel vs marth (combo combo combo *get grab ******)

 

[Ripple]

@ripple:
falco is definitely harder than fox. 30/70 imo lasers are just the bane of my existence.
falcon is worse than that as well. roy gets combod so easily. it's pretty much pick a move, invent a combo. although i will give you that it's not nearly as bad as the other high tiers.
i would put anything that can range camp hardcore at 35/65 (doc, mario, pika, link, etc)

I find fox much harder than falco actually. and the lower characters are so much more limited it does raise the favor.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I find fox much harder than falco actually. and the lower characters are so much more limited it does raise the favor.

it might just be me in general that's bad against range spam. but i've found that almost any ranged char stomps on roy pretty hard.

 

[exarch]

Kaze: Ganon CC grabs Roy.

I don't think Ganon autoedgeguards Roy though. I played a ton of this matchup yesterday, and probably more than 3/4 stocks, I died off the side or top rather than being edgeguarded or badDIing into recovery fails. It's not that hard to DI ganon, you can see the aerials coming. Also the ganon never CGed me so that's a definite benefit as well. In theory it should be 90-10, but in practice it's a lot closer usually, like 85-15. (70-30?)

Also +1ing for Falco being harder than Fox. He falls too fast and is really hard to CG because of it. His priority and shieldpoke **** combos are ridiculous, usually I get out of Fox's combos faster. Fox I'm comfortable saying is 40-60 and Falco's more like 35-65.

Though usually I have a better opinion of matchups than other people, so my numbers will usually be higher for Roy.

Prepost Edit: Actually looking at Rip's list I agree within 5 for the vast majority of those. IMO Roy has a better matchup with Jiggs @ 40-60 or better, sheik @ 30-70, luigi is worse though like 30-70.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm surprised Ganon has the range to CC grab Roy since his grab range is terrible and even if Roy has weak moves he still has a sword attached to them, but if you assure me that it works then whatever.

 

[exarch]

It more a pick your poison, if you space a nair or fair to get around the grab, he can jump over you and fair your head, if you're trying to get inside his fair and he stays in shield, he grabs you.

But everyone CC grabs everyone, regardless how good at spacing they are or how bad their grab range is. As an example, I CC grab Marth with Peach about once a match. The whole thing is getting hit beforehand, it gives the other person the false impression that it's safe to start a combo, so they become more aggressive with what they're doing and misspace for the CC.

Also Ganon's grab range is ****. No one agrees because it doesn't go Sheik's grab range distance in front of him, but it's got amazing grab range behind him. He just grabs people out of crossups all the time, which is probably the most common way I get grabbed in that matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would think that being behind Ganon would be much scarier than being in front of him because of how much faster his Bair is. And Roy's grab range is longer so if you bother straight go for grabs then yours will probably win.

But maybe that's just my silly Sheik habits speaking.

 

[exarch]

Nah both of those are definitely correct, I think it's more of me being insistently stupid. Generally what I do against people with shields up is crossup on them, since a couple of notables (Sheik, Marth) can still grab you if you space perfectly in front of them. Against Ganon I get grabbed anyways.

Bair isn't too bad because you can spatter attacks to keep him from getting off the ground into the air with dtilts jab overb 1 and 2 hits, he really can't get bair out fast enough to hit you, the lack of range is also huge because I'm pretty sure it doesn't hit roy immediately if ganon does a rising SH bair. Whereas if you do similar stuff in front of him he can pretty easily knock you away with a SH uair. (You're thinking, why not just grab instead? See below.)

As for both grabbing Roy's is definitely more in front of him, so you're right in saying he will win that. Unfortunately he doesn't get nearly as much from it as sheik would, so Roy isn't grabbing as often anyways. There's only so many times you can grab him again before he escapes the tech chase.

But that's my stupid non-sheiks habits speaking because my favorite thing in the game is shield pressure; I well aware that I should grab more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tech chase with D-tilt and then DO AWESOME **** COMBOS

He can't get a true CC if you D-tilt him out of his tech animation so it probably knocks him down pretty early like maybe 35%-40% just sayin' and then you D-tilt again because it's HOT SHIT THAT ***** THEIR MOTHER AND SISTER AT THE SAME TIME

Actually I can't back that up but I know that when D-tilt knocks someone down the correct move is often to just D-tilt again. And Ganon seems like he could be pretty nice combo food. I don't know anything practical about comboing Ganon but I know you can get the CPU with D-tilt --> Side B (>>>>) and if something like that works then you can probably do hilarious things to his body. Maybe D-tilt --> Side B (>>V) and continue to tech chase, or do the fourth hit (V) and see if you can get a stupid reset or something if they miss the tech loooool. You might even be able to hit him out of his tech stand or tech roll away because Roy moves forward a lot. I dunno. There's probably more useful stuff anyway but just some thoughts.

Ganon is fat lil' piggy.

 

[exarch]

Yea but if you miss the tech chase you're back to working to get inside, and tech chasing with dtilt is much too slow to do on reaction, so it's a dice roll with less than a 33% chance to get it right. Also if he tech rolls away from you I doubt Roy is fast enough to get there with anything except a grab. Though if he's closer to the edge where one of his techs is limited with space it gets (slightly) better.

Dtilt pokes ganon's shield pretty easy, so I find it easier to try to stay on top of him once I'm there. Doing so behind him is much easier than being in front. I just substitute grab and techchase with shield pressure and shield poke.

And yea Roy has nice combos on ganon XD

You're definitely right on with the dtilt knock over stuff and followup, though. Problem I have is unless I'm expecting him to CC, I jump in the air to follow up with an aerial after the dtilt, cause Roy doesn't have much stun time to work with anyway. And Ganon combo breaking with uair is not a good trade when all you got was a dtilt in the first place. I just need faster reaction time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think when he's close to the edge and therefore his tech roll is just a longer tech stand I think tech chasing with D-tilt becomes a lot better. I mean, you get to cover 3/4 tech options with one move. And Roy's D-tilt has beast IASA :D

 

[Ripple]

so what match ups do we agree on?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach is bad, Samus is bad, Sheik is not quite as bad.

 

[t3h Icy]

For now I'll put up Peach, but if you don't think 30:70 is correct, I'll change it next update.

 

[darkoblivion12]

IC's are 10:90, im pretty sure we agree on that.

 

[Laijin]

Hey guys how do you feel about Zelda vs Roy?
Those Zelda boards think Zelda absolutely destroys Roy 70-30. Meaning its almost not winnable for Roy.
Can't be that bad right?

 

[FireBall Stars]

How can, 70-30 almost not winnable? It may be hard, but almost not winnable may be exageration.

Well, I never played a good Zelda, but I'll put some facts.

Roy has a much bigger grab range than Zelda, he has better range range and movimentation(due to long dashdances and a good WD) than her as well.

it may be dangerous to shffld much due to Fairs and Bair, but those attacks are predictable because of her low air control and fall speed, so it's not a problem to shield or even counter if necessary.

If block Roy will surely be able to shieldgrab or punish with wavedash OoS to something, if counter I don't need to say what gonna happen.

She's light and he can kill her somewhat early with sweetspoted smashes, but Roy is easy to edgehog, so is Zelda.

Zelda will rely mostly on her Fair, Bair and edgeguards to kill Roy. DED can be easily hit her and the 3rd hit forward is a potential killer, the 3rd hit Up can Meteor her in the groun, giving setup to the fourth hits, but it needs to be done right. He can setup her to Fsmash with tipped Dair/Uair near the 80%.

If Zelda get past the 150% for some reason, Uthrow can probably kill her, as it does with most floaty character, but it is a problem against a good DI indeed.

I can't see much of a vantage to Zelda, however, I can't give a solid answer since Zelda may have strategies which I don't know.

 

[Laijin]

70-30 is pretty unwinnable. That means chances are Roy will get 2-0'ed in a set. Another 70-30 MU is probably like Sheik vs Link(for example). Link has options, but Sheik pretty much shuts him down.

I don't really see any huge significant advantages that Zelda has that stops most of Roy's options.

Any more extreme than 70-30 goes from becoming almost unwinnable to not a chance in hell(See Kirby vs Fox)

 

[exarch]

Nah it's pretty close to even but if the Roy isn't good at controlling himself Zelda gets 12 toes and Roy loses before he knows anything about the matchup.

That's also probably why the Zelda's are saying it's so unfair. I played one here who by the third match was asking "what am I supposed to do against that?!"

I need to play Cosmo in a good number of these.

 

[Zone]

Exarch why have we never played Zelda vs Roy we have been to the same tourney enough times. I'll put in my 2 cents to what has been Said when I'm off work. 70:30 I see it like you got a 10 sided die and you roll it 3 times for Roy to win he just needs 1-3 twice which isn't crazy impossible. Where as Zelda just needs 4-10 twice. You can't look at it as 7 wins 3 losses because you don't know what order the wins will come in you are acting laijin like 7--3 Zelda will always 2-0 when I strongly disagree

 

[FireBall Stars]

Oh, well. Comparing it to the older system, 70-30 would be a counterpart of +2/-2, which is medium advantage, don't get deceived by 70 being a high number, keep in mind that all started with 50, not 0, it's 20 points of advantage; it's not the difference between the character's numbers, but the difference to the original 50 of each.

Bu I agree with you Laijin. Anyway, I don't see how Zelda can have a medium advantage against Roy still, I can see only a small advantage for Zelda or for Roy(+1/-1, 60-40) or being optimistic for Roy, a medium advantage for him (+2/-2, 70-30).

Link versus Sheik would be pretty much +4, 90-10 or +3, 80-20 for Sheik, that means, 40 or 30 points of advantage while Link has only 10 or 20.

 

[Ripple]

just because cosmo beat me and I didn't upload the game I got 3 stocked, he thinks its 70-30 for zelda.

cosmo is much more skilled than me but I still took 2 stocks off of him in 2/3 games we played. its 60-40

 

[Zone]

Roy has a much bigger grab range than Zelda, he has better range range and movimentation(due to long dashdances and a good WD) than her as well.

while this may be true, his lack of power at the tip makes it hard for you to get past a Zelda defense safely. Not saying it's impossible hell no. But of course roy needs to have that on her, because she has sort of a marth type wall against roy. Hard to get in.

it may be dangerous to shffld much due to Fairs and Bair, but those attacks are predictable because of her low air control and fall speed, so it's not a problem to shield or even counter if necessary.

If block Roy will surely be able to shieldgrab or punish with wavedash OoS to something, if counter I don't need to say what gonna happen.

Yeah but a really good Zelda doesn't just do kicks >.>;. If you're shielding we'll tend to Nair(which has shield poking qualities.) and l-cancel into upsmash, which if you don't aim your shield up. You'll get shield poked by that if N-air didn't do it itself. Our aerial game isn't as predictable as you make it sound.

You will counter or shield grab no problem... If they do an approaching kick. which isn't very smart unless you're sure the opponent is in the air, or is getting off the ground. A Zelda generally won't kick toward you to be able to shield grab let alone anything else. A retreat kick off your shield is super safe. And So is a in place l-canceled one into F-smash. Once F-smash is done hitting your shield, Zelda is still safe from any punishment(with the same spacing as the kick.) Unless your jiggs and your gay and you DI into Zelda and rest her. lol
Now I understand we can't retreat kick forever otherwise we'll end up getting cornered and our options limited. But it's not so cut and dry as B-air and F-air all day long.

Zelda will rely mostly on her Fair, Bair and edgeguards to kill Roy. DED can be easily hit her and the 3rd hit forward is a potential killer, the 3rd hit Up can Meteor her in the groun, giving setup to the fourth hits, but it needs to be done right. He can setup her to Fsmash with tipped Dair/Uair near the 80%.

True we may rely on those, Depending on the version we'll be more likely to use F-smash as well. Uptilt has KO power when you're pretty high as well. But don't forget that F-tilt, Dash attack, upthrow, sometimes N-air Will lead to Kick as well. Depending highly on percentage. Other moves lead into kick also like up-air, But these moves are rarely used because of their rare situational uses.

I feel like people are too generically looking at Zelda as a Kick only person. It'd be like looking at ganon as a FAIR only person. Zelda has alot of viable moves and her smash attacks are very fast. Crouch cancel down smash usually ends up leading into a tech chase. Zelda's priority is something people don't understand either. The only move I rarely ever use is her din's fire. which the only time I know a use for it is on Samus' recovery.

So please don't think us Zelda players only kick lol. that's doom to fail, as you said it's predictable. And there are more ways to mix up kicks also.

you got kick wave-land. Kick kick(twice before hitting the ground), empty hop(put fear), into late l-cancelled kick. Empty hop, into bait opponents shield into N-air--> downtilt or upsmash for shield poke. retreating kick, Approaching kick, nuetral kick. DJ(puts you perfectly on battlefield or yoshi's platforms, into kick fall through platform kick. SH kick into jump waveland on platform run away or waveland toward opponent kick. I just feel like you're making it sound like everytime Zelda kicks she's coming at you and you can just punish it with a shieldgrab.

The only reason I think Roy isn't ******** bad is because his speed.

Question, what % can your guys grab lead to a guarantee K.O. move. like F-smash.
only way I can see you guys truly getting a kill. is counter our kick, Shield poke with downtilt(avoidable with lightshield or aimed down shield.) into Fmash. Or a mind game f-smash or landing a KO DED. Downsmash? Most of these shield-able, So if you guys got a great guaranteed way to kill off a grab, that'd be great.

 

[exarch]

At like 170% grab leads into a guarentee uthrow ko.

I like how your Zelda counter to the Roy game is retreat kick. Unfortunately Roy can counter every single retreating kick you do; obviously this matchup is 100-0 in Roy's favor.

Real talk though: Roy has crappy aerials with good range and speed. He's pretty good to stay on Zelda once he's there. Zelda can do next to nothing when Roy's against her shield. The only thing she has that's fast enough is usmash and Roy can duck that.

There are a lot of holes in Zelda's offense and defense, just avoid the sides at a certain range and you're ok. Obviously neither player is perfect but Roy has a much easier time getting inside than what is being portrayed. His speed is enough to propel him inside quickly before Zelda can do much of anything. Approach high, and approach low. If you're at the bad spacing then shield and roll away, cause zelda can't punish that.

However mistakes will be made and Zelda gets 20% out of those.

IMO 55-45 Zelda +/- 5 either way. I think the mistakes are a bit too easy to make, and can be forced just a bit too frequently for their punishment. I'll pretend it's even in my head and continue to look at it as my fault every time I lose to Zelda.

Unless it's on DL.

 

[Zone]

At like 170% grab leads into a guarentee uthrow ko.

I like how your Zelda counter to the Roy game is retreat kick. Unfortunately Roy can counter every single retreating kick you do; obviously this matchup is 100-0 in Roy's favor.

Real talk though: Roy has crappy aerials with good range and speed. He's pretty good to stay on Zelda once he's there. Zelda can do next to nothing when Roy's against her shield. The only thing she has that's fast enough is usmash and Roy can duck that.

There are a lot of holes in Zelda's offense and defense, just avoid the sides at a certain range and you're ok. Obviously neither player is perfect but Roy has a much easier time getting inside than what is being portrayed. His speed is enough to propel him inside quickly before Zelda can do much of anything. Approach high, and approach low. If you're at the bad spacing then shield and roll away, cause zelda can't punish that.

However mistakes will be made and Zelda gets 20% out of those.

IMO 55-45 Zelda +/- 5 either way. I think the mistakes are a bit too easy to make, and can be forced just a bit too frequently for their punishment. I'll pretend it's even in my head and continue to look at it as my fault every time I lose to Zelda.

Unless it's on DL.

lol, I mention that retreating kick because it can stop alot of what you do. Of course you can counter it. I even pointed that out. although I think i did that in the main matchup thread. Not here.

I did mention Zelda has alot of other options/moves, and that kicks aren't the only thing she has. So why would I only kick... -.-? I just think that retreating kick covers ALOT of options, which is why i emphasize it.

Hey Exarch are you going to Tipped off?

Also... that other guy mentioned punishing kick so much... I was just pointing out that's only if zelda does an approach one can you do all those things to her. She has enough distance and Fmash after a kick can protect her when she deals a strong toe to the shield. which is another reason i mentioned it so much.

Exarch what kind of shield pressure are you saying Zelda can't get out of?? are you talking about DED? you know I can crouch cancel the first two hits til like 85% or something ridiculous, and just downsmsh it comes out so fast. and if you're too close when i'm CC the first 2 hits will just miss me.

Keep talking with me. I think you could convert me to believe it's more even than I originally thought. Just because I've never ran into a roy that could beat my Zelda, doesn't mean much. I probably just haven't met the right one yet. So keep answering my questions. I just from personal experience find this match up about as appetizing as Zelda vs Samus.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Thanks, you enlightened me about Zelda in some things.

Although his tippers are not powerful, they give time to some approach due to the brief stun. His stupendous grab range makes up for guaranteed throw, which may give chance to a tech chase.

Also, Besides his Tipper, Roy still has good range as his sword is even bigger compared to himself than Marth's Falchion. His fast fallspeed and very low short hop allows him to very, very fast shffld.

Zelda tilts are slow besides Dtilt and lacks the range Roy has and the speed of his shffld and grab I would pretty much say that she can't use her tilts frequently in that battle. Her uptilt if you ask me, is one move she just must not use.

Both DED1 and Jab can stop Zelda's Nair, but better with DED1. The only real problem is the kicks, mostly the retreating kicks.

Roy has a variety of setups for his smashes, all of them require shffld and may be stopped by shielding, however Roy's shfflds are very fast and Zelda grab is slow, also her WD for OoS won't help her, the best thing she can do is to retreat if Roy gets to near, his wide ken dance is very deceiving, his WD will help him very much when it is going away os approaching or to make his ken dance even better and his fast and long JC grab, not to mention pivot Fsmash

Dair, Uair, Bair and Fair (And Nair if only one hit connects) can be setups to his Smashes at very distinct percentages each, speacially Uair and Dair, it's a guaranteed Fsmash/Dsmash. Dair her 50%'s and Uair more to her 90% until very late due to tipper Uair being set knockback, if you take in account Sweetspotted Uair, it's the same as Tipper Dair, 50%

I think this may find a way as a even or very little advantage for one of them.

 

[Zone]

I see, I don't believe her up tilt is useless it has ridiculous priority it will trade hits with falco's dair I'm sure I could find a use if you are somehow above me and you use your double jump, but yeah not too much usage as you guys and zeldas like to remain pretty close to the ground. Forward tilt is slow yeah and your speed to bait would render it useless as a move to attack with but it will still be in my combos like dash attack into downward aimed f-tilt into grab or jab reset then continue from there.

 

[exarch]

Nah I was just being stupid... the retreating kick is like Zelda 101. To say or give the impression that it shuts down Roy entirely is completely false, because no matchup is entirely 1-dimensional, (Kirby-Samus being closest.) I hoped you'd catch onto that by my ******** suggestion of countering the kick. That's just stupid too (to pretend like you could counter all of them, one or two is plausible.)

Retreating kick is really good, but only if Roy overcommits to something. It's the same for Zelda in any other matchup though. If you could catch Fox everytime he approaches with the retreat kick (which theoretically you could, since it outranges his whole moveset,) Zelda would dominate. Point is, though there isn't much either character can really do to stop it, they can do a lot to not fall into it.

Also I'm not aware of anyone who can punish a proper spaced kick on shield. It's not an advantage she holds solely over Roy.

Shield pressure, basically anything that isn't ftilt or fsmash. DED, jabs, dtilts. It's tough to CC when you're already shielding, though not impossible. CCing the DED into dsmash is probably also not as easy as you think. Samus/Peachs don't get it all the time, even when they're focused exclusively on it. Also Zelda's dsmash isn't a threat until Roy has been hit by a couple of kicks. Another advantage for Peach/Samus is those two can afford to play more ground-based against Roy than Zelda. She needs to toe him, the other two can (pretty much) **** him if they need to without jumping. That translates to more CC opportunities, and many that Zelda is missing out on.



I guess the ultimate point here is I understand a lot of people don't see how Roy has anything to make him a viable character. I personally don't see how Zelda has anything to make her good. She's so... BAD. Seriously she's a terrible character. The only reason Roy doesn't have an advantage is because he's pretty terrible too.

Seriously just don't be in the parenthesis:
-----------------
()--*zelda*--()
-----------------
[figure may not be to scale]
and you win.
If you are in the parenthesis, shield. Wait for the kick to hit your shield, then roll. Win.
Roy moves pretty fast, so he's able to avoid the losezones pretty easily, more easily than very many of the rest of the cast.

I think that's why Roy vs Zelda is close. If he had better punishers or combos he'd beat the living **** out of Zelda.

As much as you may want to say "omggg Zelda is such a deeep character she's got so much more than kick," we all know she boils down to the success of the kicks, just like Peach is dsmash with extras, Ganon is Fair with extras, Marth is grab with extras, and Jiggs is bair.

Count the sweetspot toes in the match. I'd guess if they get to 10 or higher, Roy loses. Everytime.

Edit: Ok I was wrong, I get toed 12 times in this match and still win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpgQauQrxxM&feature=related

Also Zone, not going to TO6... I live in WI now >_> Wish I could though.

 

[Zone]

lol, Not saying Zelda is a deep character. I mean upsmash is useless on most characters, Same with F-smash (when hit), din's fire is generally useless, and Zelda is missing a whole move "Because Down B is shiek. If i'm gonna do that. I might as well just have been shiek from the start."

I know kicks is a larger percentage of her move choice. But I was just emphasizing it's more like 60% kicks, not 85% kicks like most people depict it. But I get your point which I totally already agree with.

Also i was messing around. and remember how I said F-smash out of l-cancel kick to protect yourself? well that works if roy stays shielded. IF you let go of shield after kick on purpose expecting a F-smash you can totally just hold up and toward zelda and do a falling Up-air after you smash DI out of it LOL. So it'd be me taking a 50%-50% chance of eating a up-air which could be F-smash, or protecting myself after a kick that was in a nuetral position(meaning not retreating or approaching just spaced well)

Roy's fall speed believe it or not gives me quite a bit of nasty combos. I can do a 0-65% damage combo if I land a single dash attack (the one that sends you up not away.) this is assuming final D lol. On platform stages of course it'd be harder and more reading involved. when I knock you onto a platform.

I can agree on Shield and roll away to be safe. But obviously too much of that and I can punish it. but that goes for ANYTHING. If all I do is retreating kick. I'll eventually hit the edge and lose my movement and spacing options.

Zelda's Downsmash is the fastest downsmash in the game. So it's probably more viable than peach and Samus, when it comes to really small windows to pull the move out. I'm not saying her downsmash is better than Samus or Peach. just that in this scenario it might be, just because of it's speed.

you're right about shield pressure though. I tried to Nayru's love out of shield and she can't get out fast enough to use it. My best bet was to roll away which in turn gets predictable.

and I see your point on trying to crouch cancel to crouch cancel downsmash is not as likely cuz I need to stay somewhat airborne to avoid grabs. But It's not too too hard to crouch cancel in shield.