Roy desires to be higher on the Tier List

[StaffofSmashing]

Roy, my main bro. Won 3 of my neighborhood Tournaments with him. And still, he's low on the tier list.

I take all my arguements and stuff from SmashWiki, and feel free to counter and support my things.

"Roy's primary weakness is his extremely fast falling speed, leading him to be very easily comboed"

This is really weird to explain. Melee's hitstun may hinder my counter, but I have a pun, his Counter attack.

Because some characters have slower combos than others, those slower ones can be countered, and attacked. "But Melee's fast gameplay means you wont be getting a lot of success with this" Well, what i do is I do something called a Wavedash. Heard of it?

"Roy himself cannot combo well, due to his low hitstun attacks and slow air speed"

Hmm, you almost got me there. What I do is I combo at low percentages, and use Flare Blade later. what i mean is i hit a foe upward with jab, then come and hit 'em with an aerial, up to around 50%, then Flare Blade in mid-air with good timing. This is an example of dodging this, as Flare Blade's awesome power can OHKO Jigglypuff at 0%.

"The fact that his sweetspot on his sword is in the centre of his blade effectively limits Roy's ability to reliably KO"

No. Sweetspotting isn't everything. Roy has a few reliable KO attacks, like Flare Blade, Double-Edge dance, and Counter. Roy's ability to reliably KO is not limited.

"Roy, along with Marth, suffers from a good recovery"

Counter negates knockback, but other than that, you got me.

Feedback welcomed with open arms!

 

[Ezzee]

1.) Roy's falling speed does lead him to get comboed pretty bad. I know that Sheik can chaingrab him due to this, and a few other high tiers probably can as well. Fast falling speed also means he can't extend his recovery as well as Marth. It does help due to that it gives him a faster SHHFL, but sweetspot Roy fair does less than sour spot Marth fair.
2.) Roy has a hard time comboing because his aerials are so weak. None of them do more than 10 damage other than nair, and even then you have to hit both hits.
3.) This goes back to my last point. Roy might have an easier time getting kills than they make it seem, but he still has to get them to kill percents. Flare blade is hard to utilize outside of edge guarding, only the 3rd and 4th hits of DED have KO potential, and counter could be useful, but it's very easy to punish if you predict wrong. Roy's need more pivot f-smashing, seriously, why don't you guys do this?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh thank goodness someone found the time portal to 2004. I may still be able to avert Armageddon!

 

[knightpraetor]

ah to be young again. I regret not starting this game earlier

 

[VioletSmashfan]

If anything Roy should be at least #19 on the Tier list (Zelda is far worse than Roy is and should be a lot lower than she actually is, due to the fact she's even lighter than Roy and Roy can easily send her off-screen very easily (Roy at least can get his aerial attacks off with or without the sweetspot (as long your not offstage as Roy has the worst aerials in the game along with the fact he's a fast faller and has the worst recovery in Melee (only upside is that you can angle it slightly, but even then he's risked at getting edge guarded), since he was never intended to be an air fighter at all), while with Zelda you have to time your attacks well in order to have a fighting chance (her aerials are extremely hard to land.)

Only reason Roy's stuck with the current listing is the fact he gets combo'ed very easily by almost the entire cast due to his fast falling speed (aside from Zelda and the 1s that are lower ranked than him, Mewtwo is a stretch (who's also a rank lower than Roy on the Tier list) since he can CG him easily with the down throw at later %).

 

[Johnknight1]

Roy's where he is because he's pretty much all around worse than Marth.

While he probably is a spot or 2 too low on the tier list, there certainly isn't anything to suggest he deserves to be up there with Link, Young Link, Donkey Kong, and Yoshi (who is still painfully too low).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Roy is at the right tier and is hovering around the right position in the low-tier (Zelda should be lower than him though). His position in the list all comes down to the shortcomings he has, disadvantages that other characters above him don't suffer from. Most of these characters above him can still do what he does with much less difficulty, and one mess-up with him can severely hinder him in high-level play.

So yes, he does have combos, he has tools, and he can win even his hardest matchups through smart use of DD, side-B, down-tilt, CC and overall a ton of hard work invested in him. But concerning his tier list position, (and according to the title, this is what this topic is about), regardless of how many things he might be able to do, fact remains that he's outperformed at the highest levels: the majority of characters above him can do many of the things he does without worrying about his shortcomings.

The important thing to remember is that a tier list doesn't tell you who you should play: a tier list tells you how each character performs compared to the rest of the cast. Yes, Roy does have things going for him, and although it is possible to win when invested enough time in him, it's really difficult to make full use of his advantages and negate his shortcomings.

But hey, please feel free to prove us wrong if you truly believe Roy should be higher. Become as good as you can with him. If you love Roy, and love playing as him, then keep on going. You're gonna have more fun playing as a character you love rather than playing one you don't.

 

[N1c2k3]

This is so awesome...

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

If his aerials didn't lag quite as much and he wasn't so heavy he might have a chance of moving up a slot or two. All of this still wouldn't save his lack of strong SHFFL options and general difficulty in neutral, especially against any character that sports projectiles (Unlike Marth and Falcon he just isn't mobile enough to move around them effectively).

 

[M3ll0w]

1.) Roy's falling speed does lead him to get comboed pretty bad. I know that Sheik can chaingrab him due to this, and a few other high tiers probably can as well. Fast falling speed also means he can't extend his recovery as well as Marth. It does help due to that it gives him a faster SHHFL, but sweetspot Roy fair does less than sour spot Marth fair.
2.) Roy has a hard time comboing because his aerials are so weak. None of them do more than 10 damage other than nair, and even then you have to hit both hits.
3.) This goes back to my last point. Roy might have an easier time getting kills than they make it seem, but he still has to get them to kill percents. Flare blade is hard to utilize outside of edge guarding, only the 3rd and 4th hits of DED have KO potential, and counter could be useful, but it's very easy to punish if you predict wrong. Roy's need more pivot f-smashing, seriously, why don't you guys do this?

Something i noticed when playing roy against a falco is that (especially on stages with platforms) if the Falco looses a jump you can uair and fair and upthrow him like crazy. Mostly the uair sweetspotted though but it does insane damage up to 150%+. but that still brings up the point that he can't KO very well like high tiers can. I do think his edge guarding game is pretty strong, at least from the people ive played against.

 

[lolazerz]

Something i noticed when playing roy against a falco is that (especially on stages with platforms) if the Falco looses a jump you can uair and fair and upthrow him like crazy. Mostly the uair sweetspotted though but it does insane damage up to 150%+. but that still brings up the point that he can't KO very well like high tiers can. I do think his edge guarding game is pretty strong, at least from the people ive played against.

I don't really see how his edge guarding game is anything better than awful. Please do elaborate.

 

[LSDX]

Roy is a legitimate character and a pretty cool guy yeah

 

[lolazerz]

Roy is a legitimate character and a pretty cool guy yeah

Cool guy, yah sure
Legitimate character? ...Maybe in a year or two when someone decides to take him to the next level

 

[LSDX]

Let me see your tournament results or videos. I'm interested to analyze your compelling Roy.

 

[M3ll0w]

I don't really see how his edge guarding game is anything better than awful. Please do elaborate.

Well against a fox or Falco Hours Counter is so much better than marths. His side smash will kill but you will get hit most of the time. If you wavedash back and they recover on the ledge you can fsmash or use his B attack. Maybe its not great but it can be annoying to deal with

 

[lolazerz]

Well against a fox or Falco Hours Counter is so much better than marths. His side smash will kill but you will get hit most of the time. If you wavedash back and they recover on the ledge you can fsmash or use his B attack. Maybe its not great but it can be annoying to deal with

Maybe this will will work on lower/mid level players but here in socal where everyone's really good. A lot of what you mentioned won't fly. Plus which b move are you talking about, neutral b? That move is fairly easily punishable

 

[bound_for_earth]

amazing profile image super cool

Roy is at the right tier and is hovering around the right position in the low-tier (Zelda should be lower than him though). His position in the list all comes down to the shortcomings he has, disadvantages that other characters above him don't suffer from. Most of these characters above him can still do what he does with much less difficulty, and one mess-up with him can severely hinder him in high-level play.

So yes, he does have combos, he has tools, and he can win even his hardest matchups through smart use of DD, side-B, down-tilt, CC and overall a ton of hard work invested in him. But concerning his tier list position, (and according to the title, this is what this topic is about), regardless of how many things he might be able to do, fact remains that he's outperformed at the highest levels: the majority of characters above him can do many of the things he does without worrying about his shortcomings.

The important thing to remember is that a tier list doesn't tell you who you should play: a tier list tells you how each character performs compared to the rest of the cast. Yes, Roy does have things going for him, and although it is possible to win when invested enough time in him, it's really difficult to make full use of his advantages and negate his shortcomings.

But hey, please feel free to prove us wrong if you truly believe Roy should be higher. Become as good as you can with him. If you love Roy, and love playing as him, then keep on going. You're gonna have more fun playing as a character you love rather than playing one you don't.

 

[bound_for_earth]

Roy, my main bro. Won 3 of my neighborhood Tournaments with him. And still, he's low on the tier list.

I take all my arguements and stuff from SmashWiki, and feel free to counter and support my things.

"Roy's primary weakness is his extremely fast falling speed, leading him to be very easily comboed"

This is really weird to explain. Melee's hitstun may hinder my counter, but I have a pun, his Counter attack.

Because some characters have slower combos than others, those slower ones can be countered, and attacked. "But Melee's fast gameplay means you wont be getting a lot of success with this" Well, what i do is I do something called a Wavedash. Heard of it?

"Roy himself cannot combo well, due to his low hitstun attacks and slow air speed"

Hmm, you almost got me there. What I do is I combo at low percentages, and use Flare Blade later. what i mean is i hit a foe upward with jab, then come and hit 'em with an aerial, up to around 50%, then Flare Blade in mid-air with good timing. This is an example of dodging this, as Flare Blade's awesome power can OHKO Jigglypuff at 0%.

"The fact that his sweetspot on his sword is in the centre of his blade effectively limits Roy's ability to reliably KO"

No. Sweetspotting isn't everything. Roy has a few reliable KO attacks, like Flare Blade, Double-Edge dance, and Counter. Roy's ability to reliably KO is not limited.

"Roy, along with Marth, suffers from a good recovery"

Counter negates knockback, but other than that, you got me.

Feedback welcomed with open arms!

i secondary roy and have beaten fox and many of the heigh teir characters wth him at local tournaments. it will take a break through to get him high on the teir list like it did with hbox using puff but it is very possible.

 

[M3ll0w]

Maybe this will will work on lower/mid level players but here in socal where everyone's really good. A lot of what you mentioned won't fly. Plus which b move are you talking about, neutral b? That move is fairly easily punishable

Yeah his neutral and yeah i know that. That's why he's still really low

 

[ShadowKing]

His game is good if played correctly because Roy needs to get in and combo his opponent hard (from experience)

 

[lolazerz]

His game is good if played correctly because Roy needs to get in and combo his opponent hard (from experience)

The problem is that his combos are difficult to set up, mostly just d-tilt(his only combo tool). Plus you don't get much out of his combos. Another factor in why Roy would be placed this low would be His terrible approach options.

 

[ShadowKing]

He dosent need to be higher on the tier list but just needs a real good player to show his skills at tourneys because mewtwo and yoshi have a good player for mewtwo Taj and for yoshi Amsa

 

[lolazerz]

He dosent need to be higher on the tier list but just needs a real good player to show his skills at tourneys because mewtwo and yoshi have a good player for mewtwo Taj and for yoshi Amsa

M2K still has a good MewTwo

 

[ShadowKing]

M2K still has a good MewTwo

What does m2k have to do with this and yes I agree he does

 

[lolazerz]

What does m2k have to do with this and yes I agree he does

Because you mentioned a good Mewtwo player and I thought of M2K

 

[ShadowKing]

Because you mentioned a good Mewtwo player and I thought of M2K

Look up Taj buddy and you'll see he's better

 

[Delta Chae]

He dosent need to be higher on the tier list but just needs a real good player to show his skills at tourneys because mewtwo and yoshi have a good player for mewtwo Taj and for yoshi Amsa

Sethlon gave it his all with Roy and didn't achieve a thing. Yoshi and Mewtwo do have extremely glaring weaknesses like Roy (Mewtwo is light as a feather with a gigantic hitbox and Yoshi has no answer to shield pressure along with being extremely vulnerable if he doesn't have his second jump) however, unlike Roy both of these characters have strengths that can be used against someone who doesn't know how to properly exploit their weaknesses. Mewtwo has a great grab game, a decent defensive option in his up-b, as well as a decent combo game. Yoshi has double jump cancel combos, parrying, and subtractive knockback armor on his double jump making him somewhat difficult to edgeguard without the proper timing. Roy on the other hand has very little he can do that Marth can't do better. Pretty much the only thing Roy can do that Marth can't is follow up on down tilt with an aerial. Marth has a better recovery and considering that his recovery is decidedly mediocre it really shows just how bad Roy's is. Other than that Marth's moves are universally less laggy, have better hitbox placement, give more follow ups, come out faster, and deal more damage when spaced correctly. Marth also has better OoS options than Roy and considering that Marth really only has 2 good OoS options (Wavedash and up-b) and one decent one (Dair) that says a lot.

 

[ShadowKing]

Sethlon gave it his all with Roy and didn't achieve a thing. Yoshi and Mewtwo do have extremely glaring weaknesses like Roy (Mewtwo is light as a feather with a gigantic hitbox and Yoshi has no answer to shield pressure along with being extremely vulnerable if he doesn't have his second jump) however, unlike Roy both of these characters have strengths that can be used against someone who doesn't know how to properly exploit their weaknesses. Mewtwo has a great grab game, a decent defensive option in his up-b, as well as a decent combo game. Yoshi has double jump cancel combos, parrying, and subtractive knockback armor on his double jump making him somewhat difficult to edgeguard without the proper timing. Roy on the other hand has very little he can do that Marth can't do better. Pretty much the only thing Roy can do that Marth can't is follow up on down tilt with an aerial. Marth has a better recovery and considering that his recovery is decidedly mediocre it really shows just how bad Roy's is. Other than that Marth's moves are universally less laggy, have better hitbox placement, give more follow ups, come out faster, and deal more damage when spaced correctly. Marth also has better OoS options than Roy and considering that Marth really only has 2 good OoS options (Wavedash and up-b) and one decent one (Dair) that says a lot.

I don't care anymore sadly I left roy

 

[LSDX]

The dream is alive and well.

 

[NJzFinest]

Roy should be higher, I can see him right above the Links tier wise. No one does well with him.

Most players currently who use Roy aren't that good at the game.

Also M2K's Mew2 is better than Taj's. He beat MacD with Mew2 in tourney. Taj is just oldschool. It's like how M2K > Sethlon and NEO with Roy. No it's not just cause he's M2K, he put in work with those characters since he plays so much.

 

[Delta Chae]

Roy should be higher, I can see him right above the Links tier wise. No one does well with him.

Most players currently who use Roy aren't that good at the game.

Also M2K's Mew2 is better than Taj's. He beat MacD with Mew2 in tourney. Taj is just oldschool. It's like how M2K > Sethlon and NEO with Roy. No it's not just cause he's M2K, he put in work with those characters since he plays so much.

I'm interested in why you think this. I feel that for Roy to make any sort of upward movement in the tier list at this point someone will need to find something he can do that Marth can't do better.

On the other hand, the Links do have their niche uses in tournaments. Young Link has a solid matchup against Jigglypuff and Link can be annoying for Marth. What does Roy by comparison?

 

[NJzFinest]

I'm interested in why you think this. I feel that for Roy to make any sort of upward movement in the tier list at this point someone will need to find something he can do that Marth can't do better.

On the other hand, the Links do have their niche uses in tournaments. Young Link has a solid matchup against Jigglypuff and Link can be annoying for Marth. What does Roy by comparison?

Roy does way better vs spacies. That matters much more. On FD and Stadium, the matchup is very do-able since those stages allow Roy to have a Marth-like punish game. Also, just in general, one dtilt to Fsmash can end a stock.

I also believe Roy does better vs Sheik and Falcon. Like with Marth, Sheik doesn't really have an answer to good DDing vs Roy and she's a decent combo weight. The match is definitely in Sheiks favor but I personally believe the Links are a bigger joke for her. Falcon's Nair approach gets stuffed by cc Dtilts and Dancing Blade. He doesn't get chaingrabbed but is pretty easy to combo and his recovery makes life all so much easier.

Roy has the movement which gives him a pretty solid neutral. His punish game is just simply very questionable in most matchups. VS Peach, for example, he can win neutral 5 times in a row and Peach can still not be anywhere close to kill %. The Links never have to approach and can combo projectiles into kill moves. In PM, I believe the focus was on making sure Roy's moves actually lead into something.

Link vs Marth is purely based on how knowledge the Marth player is. I believe Smellycat (mid level Marth) has always destroyed InternetExplorer (one of the best Links).

 

[NIFOFD]

I think people drastically over estimate the viability of Roy against spacies on FD. He has nowhere near a Marth like punish game. At best he has chaingrabs (which aren't even that good), but he can't land a strong f-smash at ~60% like Marth, or continue the chaingrab into a later finisher with uairs and utilt (you might get up-air -> fsmash if they DI wrong). Combine this with the fact that Roy's neutral game is not as strong as Marth's.

Dtilt->Fsmash is fine, but shouldn't be relied upon as you won't be taking many stocks with it against actually decent spacies. At best you'll force an edgeguard that serves as an opportunity to allow them to make a mistake and lose a stock. This is assuming that the spacie doesn't either DI horribly or recover horribly.

Putting Roy above the Links isn't a good idea imo. The Links at least don't get completely destroyed by Puff and Peach. I would also argue they have better spacie matchups on every non FD (maybe PS) stage.

I would be hesitant to place Roy above G&W tbh.

 

[Comet7]

does roy really do better against spacies though? maybe on FD, but he's just a slower, much worse marth so he doesn't punish that well, from what i understand, especially from reading the other thread. link vs spacies isn't that bad from what i've heard from good links. i thought the consensus is roy vs spacie is around 65-35 on FD and worse everywhere else.

 

[NJzFinest]

The Links can't do anything vs spacies lol.

GnW > Roy and the Links. Qerb has shown me enough.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Even a thread in the Roy board ends up discussing other low tiers viability. Lmao

 

[NIFOFD]

Well I'm not gonna pretend that Links v. Spacies is anything other than awful, but I still feel as though they hold the advantage over Roy (not Young Link, just adult Link though).

The big difference I see is that Roy has a slightly better neutral than Link (and only slightly thanks to CC). But I feel that Link converts far harder off of a victory in the neutral on every map except maybe FD. The big difference in punishment comes from Link's actual function aerials (especially up air in this particular set of MUs). Bair is also better than anything Roy has, nair is great, and dair has situational uses.

Link also has much better edge guards against spacies (though I'll admit that Falco Phantasm sweetspots can be hard to deal with). Projectiles, nair (seriously it lasts forever), and up-b (both for punishing missed sweetspots and for taking ledge out of a run if you don't have a bomb to throw backwards) are all decent when it comes to covering the spacie's options. Dtilt and Dsmash are also alright in certain contexts. I'll also add that Link's moves that force edge guarding situations tend to hit at better trajectories than Roy's moves do. This allows Link to cover less options against a spacie coming from below the stage.

Roy's edge guard options are much more limited thanks to his fast falling speed, poor recovery, and lack of actually good aerials. He can take ledge alright and he can really punish missed sweetspots, but I still feel he has a considerably harder job.

I also believe that Link does better in the neutral than Roy on all stages other than FD/PS(?) an can elaborate on that more if anyone wants me to. I'd love to hear what other people think about this issue as I have spent a great amount of time playing against spacies with both Roy and Link.

 

[Delta Chae]

Roy does way better vs spacies. That matters much more. On FD and Stadium, the matchup is very do-able since those stages allow Roy to have a Marth-like punish game. Also, just in general, one dtilt to Fsmash can end a stock.

I also believe Roy does better vs Sheik and Falcon. Like with Marth, Sheik doesn't really have an answer to good DDing vs Roy and she's a decent combo weight. The match is definitely in Sheiks favor but I personally believe the Links are a bigger joke for her. Falcon's Nair approach gets stuffed by cc Dtilts and Dancing Blade. He doesn't get chaingrabbed but is pretty easy to combo and his recovery makes life all so much easier.

Roy has the movement which gives him a pretty solid neutral. His punish game is just simply very questionable in most matchups. VS Peach, for example, he can win neutral 5 times in a row and Peach can still not be anywhere close to kill %. The Links never have to approach and can combo projectiles into kill moves. In PM, I believe the focus was on making sure Roy's moves actually lead into something.

Link vs Marth is purely based on how knowledge the Marth player is. I believe Smellycat (mid level Marth) has always destroyed InternetExplorer (one of the best Links).

I feel like you're seriously overestimating Roy's prowess on FD vs. spacies. I will concede that the MU is doable on FD if the player is skilled enough but still heavily skewed toward the spacies (Think 7.5 to 2.5 against Roy, and that's probably a bit generous). Additionally, his punish game may be "Marth-like" on FD, but still not nearly as good as Marth's. Roy's punish game works similarly to Marth's but it's not nearly as good due to the fact that most of his moves lack reliable followups which deprives him of valuable kill setups and he can't kill as early as Marth barring horrendous DI. As for Stadium, the only thing Roy has there are his chaingrabs in the center and on the platforms, the transformations allow Fox better control the stage, the only plus that Roy has against Marth here is that he's immune to Fox's infinite shine combos because he's lighter than Marth.

Sheik still has an incredible punish game on Roy. Any weaknesses that apply to Marth in this particular MU apply to Roy twofold as Roy is significantly easier to punish due to his laggier attacks, and is much better combo food compared to Marth. But you are right, Sheik doesn't have an answer to good dash-dancing, this would be something in Roy's favor if he had any good options out of it that allowed him to convert into something big, but he doesn't. Link in this particular MU might struggle in the neutral more but gets far more from winning it than Roy does. The neutral is a big deal but being able to convert when you win it is just as big and while Sheik is just about the right weight and fall speed for comboing, Roy's aerials...don't link, like ever unless the opponent DIs in such a way that they are intentionally trying to give you follow ups.

You are also correct about Falcon in many respects. His nair does get trumped by CC and he is the epitome of combo food. However, like Sheik, Falcon has a god-like punish game and a good Falcon that is aware of his weakness to CCing will bait out your response to SH nair and punish accordingly, and we all know how ridiculous Falcon's tech-chasing is.

I will also concede that Roy has a decent neutral game by virtue of it being similar to Marth's. The problem is that if he wins the neutral he can't do anything with it, and if he loses it he's probably going to die. Your last sentence of this particular paragraph pretty much explains why Roy is so low in Melee, his moves don't lead into anything which means that he has to fish for kills but he's extremely easy to kill due to his light weight and fast falling speed.

As for Link vs. Marth, there's a reason why I used the word "annoying" instead of "hard". A Marth that knows the MU will win pretty much 100% of the time, but one that doesn't will find themselves struggling in it.

Of course this is all from my own experiences in my own competitive career which is all of 4 months old so take it for what it's worth as most of my knowledge is purely theoretical in nature.

 

[Modesty]

I think Roy could be a spot or two higher. I actually think he is better than DK. They both get comboed to death by to tiers, but Roy can cheese better.

 

[NIFOFD]

I think in the end, if people want Roy to be higher on the tier list, someone is going to actually have to do well with him.