Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[BluePikmin11]

View attachment 2324


i was trying to think like sakurai..... *epic failed* -_-

I'd put Isaac over Matthew, and add Starfy. It's a fine roster.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If it suits the gameplay and provides a unique experience, yes. Pikachu and Pichu can both do a variety of moves they can't learn. Ness and Lucas can both do a variety of moves that they again cannot learn. Adult Link has a boomerang in Melee despite never having one, Young Link in Melee has a Bow & Arrow despite never having that, all of Zelda's magic moves are actually moves Link learns and yet it's somehow a stretch for Ganondorf to use a trident? Being a human doesn't render you unable to pick up a trident.

I respect where you're coming from, but this is a little different than that. These characters all share the same types of abilities. Ganon & Ganondorf are WAY further apart than Young Link from Link or Pikachu from Pichu. Just like Samus is way further apart from Zero Suit Samus.

I'd put Isaac over Matthew, and add Starfy. It's a fine roster.

 

[CalumG]

I respect where you're coming from, but this is a little different than that. These characters all share the same types of abilities. Ganon & Ganondorf are WAY further apart than Young Link from Link or Pikachu from Pichu.

But if it suits the purpose of the gameplay, would giving Ganondorf a trident be a bad thing? Ganondorf and Ganon have both shown the ability to use combat weapons and used energy-based projectiles. Pig Ganon has been referred to as Ganondorf (and Gannon ), and human Ganondorf has been referred to as Ganon. Visually, yes, they're very distinct, but in terms of actual attack capabilities there isn't as much of an established line between the two as you'd think.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

OK, enough on Paper Mario, we aren't getting ANYWHERE on that topic.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

But if it suits the purpose of the gameplay, would giving Ganondorf a trident be a bad thing? Ganondorf and Ganon have both shown the ability to use combat weapons and used energy-based projectiles. Pig Ganon has been referred to as Ganondorf (and Gannon ), and human Ganondorf has been referred to as Ganon. Visually, yes, they're very distinct, but in terms of actual attack capabilities there isn't as much of an established line between the two as you'd think.

These are things that just better represent Ganon, Ganondorf should be represented through his strength & magic and that's what Sakurai did.

It's feasible and represents GANONDORF well. Due to him not really needing any change, it's likely Sakurai will not waste his time coming up with a move set that probably wouldn't even be original or unique from pre-existent characters to begin with. It works very well imo so I say leave it the way it is and focus your time on MORE important things in the game.

Are we getting ANYWHERE on this topic???

 

[CalumG]

These are things that just better represent Ganon, Ganondorf should be represented through his strength & magic and that's what Sakurai did.

Ganondorf didn't exhibit any "strength" prior to Melee. He punched the floor once, maybe? Aside from that, everything he had ever done was an energy-projectile, weapon-based, Pig Ganon-based or an act of evil spurred on by his cunning rather than strength. Ganondorf being some kind of brutish powerhouse wasn't represented by Melee - it was invented by Melee.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ganondorf didn't exhibit any "strength" prior to Melee. He punched the floor once, maybe? Aside from that, everything he had ever done was an energy-projectile, weapon-based, Pig Ganon-based or an act of evil spurred on by his cunning rather than strength. Ganondorf being some kind of brutish powerhouse wasn't represented by Melee - it was invented by Melee.

1. We're not talking about Pig Ganon
2. Neither was C. Falcon. One would logically assume he is a brutish power house because he acts like it. Even him punching the floor is probably enough to lead one to assume that.
3. Prior to Melee he didn't show it a lot, but prior to Brawl he DID. He was cloned in MELEE because Sakurai needed another clone and couldn't think of anyone else. Prior to Brawl He shows his brutish force more than Ganon's abilities, and because of this it's very likely one of the many reasons his move set stayed the same.

 

[zauberdragon]

While he doesn't display a huge amount of physical strength in Zelda, in Ocarina of time he's 7 foot 6 and build like tank. Any physical moves he would have, would be powerful. Though I agree with CalumG in that I think if he is to become decloned (and if bowser has seen a makeover I really hope Ganondorf does) his moveset should be more magic based.

 

[CalumG]

Neither was C. Falcon. One would logically assume he is a brutish power house because he acts like it. Even him punching the floor is probably enough to lead one to assume that.

So if we can make assumptions about a character in creating their moveset, we can probably assume Ganondorf is good with a trident too. Why no trident then? Maybe it "represents Ganon better than Ganondorf", but it still represents Ganondorf better than a purple Falcon Punch. In fact, at the time, given that Ganon(dorf) had only had four proper appearances (LOZ, ALTTP, the Oracles and OOT) and he was only human in one, if anything it was an injustice to not represent Pig Ganon in the first place. Pig Ganon had done more in the series than Ganondorf in his human form, although that's a whole different kettle of fish. It was all well and good showing Ganondorf in his human form, but he should have had some traits of his Pig counterpart (namely his trident), considering how prominent Ganon was at the time.

Prior to Melee he didn't show it a lot, but prior to Brawl he DID. He was cloned in MELEE because Sakurai needed another clone and couldn't think of anyone else. Prior to Brawl He shows his brutish force more than Ganon's abilities, and because of this it's very likely one of the many reasons his move set stayed the same.

No, it's pretty obvious that Sakurai didn't change his moveset between Melee and Brawl because he didn't want to alienate people who had grown accustomed to Clonedorf. His recent interviews suggest he physically loses sleep over cutting characters and choosing rosters, so it's no stretch to say that he didn't majorly de-clone any character out of fear of disappointing people who had already grown used to that character.

 

[TheCreator]

Oh my **** just stop already. Paper Mario could very well be a clone and to say otherwise is dumb. There's no place to debate here.

 

[CalumG]

Well, we've kind of moved on from Paper Mario now, but yeah... double standards when it comes to clones annoy the crap out of me.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So if we can make assumptions about a character in creating their moveset, we can probably assume Ganondorf is good with a trident too. Why no trident then? Maybe it "represents Ganon better than Ganondorf", but it still represents Ganondorf better than a purple Falcon Punch.

I just got done explaining why Ganondorf's current move set represents him better, I'm not about to go in a looping conversation again.

In fact, at the time, given that Ganon(dorf) had only had four proper appearances (LOZ, ALTTP, the Oracles and OOT) and he was only human in one

Then I guess it wasn't really GanonDORF was it.

if anything it was an injustice to not represent Pig Ganon in the first place.

I disagree and I'm sure lots of people do. Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person even if they don't share the abilities, but we just have the better and cooler form as the playable one. Besides he's pretty recurring and I think people like Ganondorf better than Ganon.

No, it's pretty obvious that Sakurai didn't change his moveset between Melee and Brawl because he didn't want to alienate people who had grown accustomed to Clonedorf.

When nothing supports that theory it can hardly be defined as "obvious". Where as I have several things that support my contrary theory. This is a blatant assumption you've made based off of literally nothing.

His recent interviews suggest he physically loses sleep over cutting characters and choosing rosters, so it's no stretch to say that he didn't majorly de-clone any character out of fear of disappointing people who had already grown used to that character.

Again, being used to Ganondorf very likely has NOTHING to do with it. Even F.L.U.D.D was enough to make Mario difficult for me to handle.

Oh my **** just stop already. Paper Mario could very well be a clone and to say otherwise is dumb. There's no place to debate here.

Dude, we all know Paper Mario CAN be a clone. But we aren't talking about what Sakurai CAN do. We are talking about what Sakurai will very likely end up doing. I already told you that Luigi & Zero Suit Samus basically prove why Paper Mario wouldn't be a clone. Now stop being such a jerk about it.

While he doesn't display a huge amount of physical strength in Zelda, in Ocarina of time he's 7 foot 6 and build like tank. Any physical moves he would have, would be powerful. Though I agree with CalumG in that I think if he is to become decloned (and if bowser has seen a makeover I really hope Ganondorf does) his moveset should be more magic based.

Like we need another Magic/Shadow/Psychic/Sorcerer character

EDIT: Ganondorf DOES use Magic Powers, all of his moves are elemented with such.

 

[CalumG]

I'm done with this now. I don't even physically understand how the points I'm making are flying so high over your head, and I'm sure anybody who has read the last few pages of this thread would be inclined to agree.

And with that I bid you adieu.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm done with this now. I don't even physically understand how the points I'm making are flying so high over your head, and I'm sure anybody who has read the last few pages of this thread would be inclined to agree.

And with that I bid you adieu.

They aren't flying high over my head, it's just that your last post wasn't really supported by anything, but your own opinion. But, everyone's entitled to their own opinion

 

[CalumG]

They aren't flying high over my head, it's just that your last post wasn't really supported by anything, but your own opinion. But, everyone's entitled to their own opinion

Me wanting Ganondorf to have a trident is an opinion, granted (and just an example of how he could be unique) - however Ganondorf as a clone making less sense than Paper Mario as a clone is cold, hard fact, and all you've done to dispute it is spout vague sentiments like "If Sakurai WANTED another Mario semi-clone, then by logic he'd pick somebody who better fits the criteria".

If you wanna continue discussing this bring it to personal messages because you're quite literally dumbing the thread down - and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

All this Paper Mario ranting makes me want to support Paper Luigi.

I for one am in support of staying away from Mario discussion for a while. I'd welcome Pikmin discussion at this point, as short as it'd be. "We don't need another Pikmin character" is a lot less of an eyesore than the last couple of pages.

But I do want Louie.

 

[zauberdragon]

Like we need another Magic/Shadow/Psychic/Sorcerer character

EDIT: Ganondorf DOES use Magic Powers, all of his moves are elemented with such.

Saying Ganondorf uses magic is like saying Captain falcon does. Just because the fire is purple instead of orange doesn't mean it's different. At least give him a projectile.

Also there's not really that many magic characters. Other than Zelda no one springs to mind. Ness and Lucas are psychic and they're the closest to majority magic uses in the game other than Zelda.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So i'd like to make a few comments after all of this Ridley hoopla.

I would suggest that everyone supporting characters such as Ridley, K.Rool, etc... prepare yourself for possible disappointment. While I have my doubts on K.Rool, if Ridley doesn't make it, I will be rather concerned for K.Rool as well. There might not be any reason exactly to fear, but there wasn't too many reasons to not add RIdley were there? (This is still up in the air, but it's very possible Ridley will not be playable.)

When discussing Chrom and Lucina and who will get into Smash, I compare their situation to other RPG's I have played. Mind you, the prospect of Lucina in Smash has grown on me, but i'm not sure I see it happening.

Chrom, Lucina, and Robin are the three main characters of the game. Lucina fills the role of presenting the big problem of the story to the leader of the main group, Chrom. Isn't that quite similar to Mario RPG?

Geno is the character that gives Mario a realization of the main issue, but at the same time, Geno is certainly not THE main character. You could almost say the same for Paula in Earthbound. She contacts the members of the eventual group for their journey, but she isn't even close to being the main character. Ness is the main character here obviously.

There is definitely a difference between "A main character" and 'THE main character". All i'm saying is that thus far in Smash, we haven't seen a side character get in without the main character of their game. It would be like Luigi getting in without Mario. It wouldn't make sense. In that regard, this is where my doubts for Lucina come in. She would probably turn out fine as a Smash character if she were done correctly, but I have sufficient doubt that a character aside from the main character will get into Smash. Chrom AND Lucina is a different story though. If Chrom gets in, maybe Lucina could join him.

A couple of other things:

It is incredibly doubtful that any Pokemon character other than:

Mewtwo
Zoroark
Blaziken

Will get in over the previously listed. There is literally nothing that would set them apart from the other 600+ as far as notability from the community. I believe the same goes for Fire Emblem. I find it incredibly doubtful that any lord besides:

Chrom
Lucina
Roy

Will get in. Besides Lyn having popularity, there isn't anything that really puts her ahead of say, Sigurd or Ephraim. It just wouldn't make any sense unless there was something that provoked Sakurai to choose one of them over the previous three, and even then, I don't think Roy's popularity is going to save him in this case unless he is the 4th Fire Emblem character after either of the other two.

Sorry. My thoughts on certain subjects just kinda spills out sometimes. These are just some things that are coming to mind with the last few days.

ALSO I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF EARTHBOUND AND I HAVE LEARNED THAT TREES ARE TERRIBLE PEOPLE.

 

[SuperBrawler]

So i'd like to make a few comments after all of this Ridley hoopla.

I would suggest that everyone supporting characters such as Ridley, K.Rool, etc... prepare yourself for possible disappointment. While I have my doubts on K.Rool, if Ridley doesn't make it, I will be rather concerned for K.Rool as well. There might not be any reason exactly to fear, but there wasn't too many reasons to not add RIdley were there? (This is still up in the air, but it's very possible Ridley will not be playable.)

When discussing Chrom and Lucina and who will get into Smash, I compare their situation to other RPG's I have played. Mind you, the prospect of Lucina in Smash has grown on me, but i'm not sure I see it happening.

Chrom, Lucina, and Robin are the three main characters of the game. Lucina fills the role of presenting the big problem of the story to the leader of the main group, Chrom. Isn't that quite similar to Mario RPG?

Geno is the character that gives Mario a realization of the main issue, but at the same time, Geno is certainly not THE main character. You could almost say the same for Paula in Earthbound. She contacts the members of the eventual group for their journey, but she isn't even close to being the main character. Ness is the main character here obviously.

There is definitely a difference between "A main character" and 'THE main character". All i'm saying is that thus far in Smash, we haven't seen a side character get in without the main character of their game. It would be like Luigi getting in without Mario. It wouldn't make sense. In that regard, this is where my doubts for Lucina come in. She would probably turn out fine as a Smash character if she were done correctly, but I have sufficient doubt that a character aside from the main character will get into Smash. Chrom AND Lucina is a different story though. If Chrom gets in, maybe Lucina could join him.

Makes Sense, but Luigi > Mario

A couple of other things:

It is incredibly doubtful that any Pokemon character other than:

Mewtwo
Zoroark
Blaziken

Meowth?

Will get in over the previously listed. There is literally nothing that would set them apart from the other 600+ as far as notability from the community. I believe the same goes for Fire Emblem. I find it incredibly doubtful that any lord besides:

Chrom
Lucina
Roy

Will get in. Besides Lyn having popularity, there isn't anything that really puts her ahead of say, Sigurd or Ephraim. It just wouldn't make any sense unless there was something that provoked Sakurai to choose one of them over the previous three, and even then, I don't think Roy's popularity is going to save him in this case unless he is the 4th Fire Emblem character after either of the other two.

Sorry. My thoughts on certain subjects just kinda spills out sometimes. These are just some things that are coming to mind with the last few days.

ALSO I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF EARTHBOUND AND I HAVE LEARNED THAT TREES ARE TERRIBLE PEOPLE.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Me wanting Ganondorf to have a trident is an opinion, granted (and just an example of how he could be unique) - however Ganondorf as a clone making less sense than Paper Mario as a clone is cold, hard fact,

First of all in my OPINION (notice I state my opinions as opinions no mater how strong) you are clearly not worth debating with if you think that, especially after the posts I made that make it obvious why Ganondorf is a clone. I can't believe you just said something so ignorant. Is your opinion really so strong that you'd go out of your way to claim it as fact. An opinion is an opinion no matter how hard you believe in it. You can't prove that, you can only list several OPINIONS that support another OPINION. No offense, but claiming an opinion as fact is beyond childish. I mean that in the nicest way possible as well.

and all you've done to dispute it is spout vague sentiments like "If Sakurai WANTED another Mario semi-clone, then by logic he'd pick somebody who better fits the criteria".

Then you base this argument on one sentence from one very long post that I don't even think is even on this page. We were talking about Ganondorf weren't we? Don't change the subject to something completely unrelated and don't take quotes completely out of context.

If you wanna continue discussing this bring it to personal messages because you're quite literally dumbing the thread down - and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Dude, if you can't support your side that's your problem, first you're claiming opinions as facts and then resulting to calling people dumb when they don't agree with them? Who's REALLY dumbing this thread down? I'm not continuing an argument with someone who claims opinions to be facts, repeats the same statements, ignores the same statements, and then insults people for not agreeing with an opinion. No offense, but that's not worth my time.
__________________________________________________________________________________
So what are we talking about now, fellas? Pokemon? Scoliosis, you don't actually think Blaziken is the only pokemon newcomer to get in right? I see Genesect & Eevee before Blaziken. Those 2 are actually the only ones I see getting in. MAYBE Kalos Trainer.

Pokemon I see in order of likeliness:

Eevee
Genesect
Kalos Trainer
Blaziken
Meowth

Those are the only ones I see making it.

 

[SuperBrawler]

I'm crying in the bathroom thinking about why people don't like Meowth.

 

[zauberdragon]

I'm crying in the bathroom thinking about why people don't like Meowth.

Well he's great and all but he missed the boat with the original smash. I personally think he would've been better than Jigglypuff, and had he been put instead of 'puff he'd still be around. It's too long since the anime was really popular and we've had too many subsequent generations.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Pokémon that I think COULD make it:

Mewtwo
Zoroark
Genesect

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Since we're on the subject of stupid yet possible............possibilities

I wouldn't be entirely shocked if due to Dr. Mario's planned appearance in Brawl and Metal Mario's recent appearances if Sakurai added Metal Mario. This would be assuming Sakurai doesn't see need to add another Mario character. It wouldn't waste a slot (meaning you could have 50 characters and make him character 51.) and you could just give him Dr. Mario's physics, maybe replace his Forward Smash with a punch and copy Luigi's Cyclone. He does seem to acknoledge Metal Mario a lot. Everyone will feel trolled, but if it does happen I will be the only one excited and unsurprised.

And now I wait for the hate and people asking "what about the metal boxeeees?"

I'm crying in the bathroom thinking about why people don't like Meowth.

Now I feel bad.

 

[CalumG]

I'm crying in the bathroom thinking about why people don't like Meowth.

The problem with Meowth is the over-abundance of first-generation Pokemon - or at least, in the eyes of some. Personally, my ideal roster is Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo, Meowth and Jigglypuff, but people would crap their pants hard and fast at that because "f*ck the genwunners" etc etc. Pikachu is the series mascot, Red is the main protagonist and is absolutely not getting replaced by a newer Pokemon Trainer (contrary to the opinions of some), Jigglypuff is a three-time vet despite not being that important and Mewtwo is a fan-favourite to return. With these four being the fan favourites from the first gen and there being an apparent need for a token Digimon new Pokemon, Meowth is put in an awkward position where his inclusion would mean either the removal of a fan favourite, or taking the spot (so to speak) of a new gen Pokemon.

Personally I'd be okay with Jigglypuff getting replaced by Meowth and a new 6th gen Pokemon taking the 5th hypothetical Pokemon spot... but that's just me.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Since we're on the subject of stupid yet possible............possibilities

I wouldn't be entirely shocked if due to Dr. Mario's planned appearance in Brawl and Metal Mario's recent appearances if Sakurai added Metal Mario. This would be assuming Sakurai doesn't see need to add another Mario character. It wouldn't waste a slot (meaning you could have 50 characters and make him character 51.) and you could just give him Dr. Mario's physics, maybe replace his Forward Smash with a punch and copy Luigi's Cyclone. He does seem to acknoledge Metal Mario a lot. Everyone will feel trolled, but if it does happen I will be the only one excited and unsurprised.

And now I wait for the hate and people asking "what about the metal boxeeees?"



Now I feel bad.

I'd actually be GLAD if they got rid of the Metal Boxes. Also, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mewtwo, and Zoroark > Meowth.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I have news for everyone: I think we can confirm that a second Pikmin Captain won't be playable.

Why you ask? Well, something so simple as the character's name: PIKMIN & Olimar. If there was going to be another captain, why is PIKMIN in the name. Why is it so important to point out there are Pikmin? Because it's the only character that has them. You wouldn't bother naming them Pikmin & Olimar and Pikmin & Louie.

 

[SuperBrawler]

I'd actually be GLAD if they got rid of the Metal Boxes. Also, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mewtwo, and Zoroark > Meowth.

is my reaction...

 

[Espio264]

What does metal Mario give us that regular Mario doesn't? Or even Dr. Mario for that matter? Make 'em both Wario like costumes and don't waste roster spots on things we really already have.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I go offline for two days and this place went nuts. First to summarize gets a like

 

[Depressed Gengar]

I go offline for two days and this place went nuts. First to summarize gets a like

LOL, you went off the Internet for two days, then people have a spaz attack because of the possibility of Ridley being a stage hazard. That's about it.

 

[Espio264]

I go offline for two days and this place went nuts. First to summarize gets a like

We're a bunch of nerds arguing over things we can't control over the internet.

 

[CalumG]

Whilst the Pokemon discussion is floating about, is there any changes people would wanna see to Pokemon Trainer? Obviously we know he's not getting replaced by a newer trainer or having something ridiculous done like switching up the evolutions (Bulbasaur, Charmeleon, Blastoise - things like this would be more hassle than they're worth), but I still think he could do with some tweaks.

The obvious ones I can think of are making the stamina system less prominent, and renaming him Red. Aside from that though I think Charizard is sorely lacking in flight capabilities. Why can Kirby get around in the air better than a flying-type Pokemon can - and one with wings for that matter?

 

[Arcadenik]

The problem with Meowth is the over-abundance of first-generation Pokemon - or at least, in the eyes of some.

Here's the solution.... add both Mewtwo and Meowth... except Mewtwo is the 6th gen rep because he is MegaMewtwo.

 

[Arcanir]

[...]Jigglypuff is a three-time vet despite not being that important and Mewtwo is a fan-favourite to return. With these four being the fan favourites from the first gen and there being an apparent need for a token Digimon new Pokémon[...]

 

[Espio264]

Whilst the Pokemon discussion is floating about, is there any changes people would wanna see to Pokemon Trainer? Obviously we know he's not getting replaced by a newer trainer or having something ridiculous done like switching up the evolutions (Bulbasaur, Charmeleon, Blastoise - things like this would be more hassle than they're worth), but I still think he could do with some tweaks.

The obvious ones I can think of are making the stamina system less prominent, and renaming him Red. Aside from that though I think Charizard is sorely lacking in flight capabilities. Why can Kirby get around in the air better than a flying-type Pokemon can - and one with wings for that matter?

Charizard could be more upright like Bowser. Squirtle could stand to be a little heavier. Maybe have it built in that you can stick with the same pokemon the entire match if you want. Stamina made sense for the debut, but he'd (they'd) be veterans now, just let us have it. I started and finished many a match with just my Charizard.

 

[CalumG]

I'm not even sure what you're no-ing at so... good job I guess?

 

[Arcanir]

I'm not even sure what you're no-ing at so... good job I guess?

It's the Digimon joke you made, I'm really sick of seeing that "New Pokeymonz are Digimonz" thing, hence the Gif.

Also, I did disagree with "the need of a token new Pokémon" as if they have nothing else to give so that went double.

 

[CalumG]

It's the Digimon joke you made, I'm really sick of seeing that "New Pokeymonz are Digimonz" thing, hence the Gif.

Also, I did disagree with "the need of a token new Pokémon" as if they have nothing else to give so that went double.

I wasn't making a joke that new Pokemon look like Digimon (because frankly they don't), I was poking fun at the fact that as soon as you mention a preference for the first-generation or make any kind of statement about how the first-gen has a greater number of viable Smash representatives (which frankly, it does), people lump you in with the same old "New Pokemon are Digimon" crowd and assume you're a hardcore genwunner.

 

[Espio264]

Do people honestly think Eevee has a shot at being playable? Or is it just the one dude?