Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Will]

I'm a guy.

I like a guy with a beard fetish

 

[Sonicguy726]

As others have said, getting rid of Sheik doesn't mean Zelda will automatically be good. It needs to be balanced. That is what Namco is there for.

I'm on the other side of the fence with the Impa debate. I don't think she'll be in, and if she is , it won't be because Sakurai cut Sheik. He's already said nobody has been cut yet. If we're going to start cutting characters because they don't work, then PKMN Trainer should be cut too because that didn't work well, and so should Ganondorf for sucking, and Meta Knight for being OP as ****.

but each of the pokemon trainers pokemon has their own strenghts and weaknesses that make them balanced, while with zelda/sheik one is clearly better than the other

 

[Hotfeet444]

I like a guy with a beard fetish

That's better.
Although I don't know why I'd have a fetish over something I really hate dealing with.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

but each of the pokemon trainers pokemon has their own strenghts and weaknesses that make them balanced, while with zelda/sheik one is clearly better than the other

The concept of the PKMN Trainer was to give each Pokémon Stamina, and weaknesses to different attacks. Charizard is worse against water, Ivysaur against fire, Squirtle against electric.

On paper, it sounds great. Execution, not so much.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Nowhere near as unique as a ninja? Ninja characters are inherently unique, now? Sheik stands out in her own series, so does Ghirahim.

Sheik was actually made less unique in Smash Bros. because they gave her generic ninja moves she doesn't even have in OoT. (Except for her teleport)
Sheik was not a part of Zelda's character before Ocarina of Time, not in Twilight Princess, not in Wind Waker, or any other game.



Yeah. I hope they give him colour this time, though, like they give his armour a slate colour.

I don't see how he stands out he is no more unique than midna, vaati, zant who all missed their chance so why is ghirahim an exception. and with sheik they obviously didn't want to get rid of that playstyle and had no-one to replace her with and since she had TP concept art anyway they could just use that

 

[Deleted member]

As others have said, getting rid of Sheik doesn't mean Zelda will automatically be good. It needs to be balanced. That is what Namco is there for.

I'm on the other side of the fence with the Impa debate. I don't think she'll be in, and if she is , it won't be because Sakurai cut Sheik. He's already said nobody has been cut yet. If we're going to start cutting characters because they don't work, then PKMN Trainer should be cut too because that didn't work well, and so should Ganondorf for sucking, and Meta Knight for being OP as ****.

It's not about Zelda becoming better.

It's about removing a cumbersome concept that simply doesn't function properly. It's also clear the transform concept was never something Sakurai really cared about considering how little effort he put into making it work in Brawl with that loooooong loading lag.

At least with Shielda, it's always been an afterthought, not a key part of the concept. So, with Namco there for balancing, I'm very certain that they've pushed for getting rid of it, cause they know their ****, and anyone with some fighting game experience can see why Sheilda is a terrible idea.

The transform concept can be implemented better in other characters imo. Also, I push for PKMN trainer getting cut, in favor of a transforming Charizard to his Mega Formes, a la DBZ (build a 'meter' and he goes Mega).

And Dorf and MK are circumstancial, you know that's not what I mean Scol, those are good concepts, the game mechanics just **** with the balance. Look at PM, in that environment Shielda needs to go, even though both are still better. It's just an awkward move to have, that really doesn't benefit either half.

 

[Sonicguy726]

The concept of the PKMN Trainer was to give each Pokémon Stamina, and weaknesses to different attacks. Charizard is worse against water, Ivysaur against fire, Squirtle against electric.

On paper, it sounds great. Execution, not so much.

by weaknesses I meant like their strength, power, recovery etc

 

[andimidna]

I highly doubt that, seeing as Sakurai has reasons for making both Links alike, but none for Zelda. And even if they did glue Toon Zelda to Tetra, I highly doubt they'd be like Zelda and Sheik. First, Tetra's a Pirate, not a ninja, to make a Pirate play like a Ninja is dumb (And blasphemy as Pirates and Ninjas are arch-enemies. ). Second, unlike actual Zelda, Toon Zelda has a stapled profession in the use of bows and arrows. Her main weapon can be her Bow, the different types of musical magic from Spirit Tracks, and more. And again, for newcomers, uniqueness is king, and Tetra (Who IS the more dominant Toon Zelda figure as it is Zelda) can be VERY unique:

You say you've watched my videos, so you know how unique Tetra can be made to be.

She's fully capable to be unique. So is Toon Link. But he ended up a clone. And I think it would look awkward to see Toon Link a clone and Toon Zelda unique. She uses light arrows, like Zelda's FS.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

The concept of the PKMN Trainer was to give each Pokémon Stamina, and weaknesses to different attacks. Charizard is worse against water, Ivysaur against fire, Squirtle against electric.

Isthis really true? I've tested it out before and didn't notice any difference in damage.

 

[Gunla]

He should be given color in his hair and facial hair/features, everything else should remain the same. I mean, Ganondorf overall wasn't that colorful, mostly consisting of black and Dark Brown.

Time to add Bearddorf to the list of G-Dorf Nicknames.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Let me give you something else, even though what I said before was better.

All took priority over Vaati back when he had a good reason to be playable. Now he doesn't. And these are just some of the trophies from Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Phantom Hourglass. I didn't put them all. And I didn't put all of the characters on stickers that took priority over him. He had 3 whole games before Brawl. He has 0 now. Don't even expect Vaati to get a sticker or a trophy this time around, he didn't when he mattered. But now, he doesn't matter.

I can safely say that's not very good logic.

 

[Kenith]

I don't see how he stands out he is no more unique than midna, vaati, zant who all missed their chance so why is ghirahim an exception. and with sheik they obviously didn't want to get rid of that playstyle and had no-one to replace her with and since she had TP concept art anyway they could just use that

Well, in that case, I don't see how Sheik stands out. Uniqueness is a terrible argument, as it is perceived and Sakurai could make a seemingly clone-material character play completely different.

Sure, Impa could replace Sheik. Hell, I'd prefer it. But it's unlikely because other characters have newer, popular characters to replace them, but won't.

Lucina would, logically, replace Marth as she is similar to him and is new and popular, but she did not because Marth is popular and is a staple of Smash Bros. Marth doesn't even use the Awakening design.
Chrom would logically replace Ike, but he probably won't.
Lucas was going to replace Ness in Melee, but he didn't. Because Ness became a staple due to Melee, him and Lucas got to co-exist.

 

[Tepig2000]

but each of the pokemon trainers pokemon has their own strenghts and weaknesses that make them balanced, while with zelda/sheik one is clearly better than the other

Personally, I think Squirtle is the clearly superior one out of the three. But that may be just me.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It's not about Zelda becoming better.

It's about removing a cumbersome concept that simply doesn't function properly. It's also clear the transform concept was never something Sakurai really cared about considering how little effort he put into making it work in Brawl with that loooooong loading lag.

At least with Shielda, it's always been an afterthought, not a key part of the concept. So, with Namco there for balancing, I'm very certain that they've pushed for getting rid of it, cause they know their ****, and anyone with some fighting game experience can see why Sheilda is a terrible idea.

The transform concept can be implemented better in other characters imo. Also, I push for PKMN trainer getting cut, in favor of a transforming Charizard to his Mega Formes, a la DBZ (build a 'meter' and he goes Mega).

And Dorf and MK are circumstancial, you know that's not what I mean Scol, those are good concepts, the game mechanics just **** with the balance. Look at PM, in that environment Shielda needs to go, even though both are still better. It's just an awkward move to have, that really doesn't benefit either half.

One thing we know for certain is that Sakurai makes the last decision on things, so if he wants Sheik to stay, then she will stay. I think it can be made to work if it's executed well. If he didn't care for Sheik or the concept, I would wager that he would've made that decision for Brawl. The loading time was crap, and should have remained shorter, I agree. I can't tell you how many times I've destroyed friends of mine because of that.

I don't think Zelda/Sheik is a bad concept. It makes sense. If a transformation can work on Charizard, then it surely can work with Sheik. What the Sheik transformation lacks is urgency and needing to switch. If Sheik can KO players without needing Zelda, then what is the point? There is hardly any reason to switch back into Zelda.

Basically, what SHOULD be done in my opinion, is Sheik should be fast, but weak, basically focusing on combos, while Zelda is most of the time necessary to get the KO. That would force the player to use both halves instead of never using Zelda.

At least that's what I see as broken with the concept. I don't see the need to trash it when you have the team to work with it and fix it.

 

[Kenith]

I can safely say that's not very good logic.

Yeah, I don't even know what he's saying.

 

[Tepig2000]

but each of the pokemon trainers pokemon has their own strenghts and weaknesses that make them balanced, while with zelda/sheik one is clearly better than the other

Personally, I think Squirtle is the clearly superior one out of the three. But that may be just me.

Isthis really true? I've tested it out before and didn't notice any difference in damage.

The damage is the same, but they take more or less knockback from certain elements.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Time to add Bearddorf to the list of G-Dorf Nicknames.

Feel free to, right next to my favorite nickname for him...Manbearpig.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Well, in that case, I don't see how Sheik stands out. Uniqueness is a terrible argument, as it is perceived and Sakurai could make a seemingly clone-material character play completely different.

Sure, Impa could replace Sheik. Hell, I'd prefer it. But it's unlikely because other characters have newer, popular characters to replace them, but won't.

Lucina would, logically, replace Marth as she is similar to him and is new and popular, but she did not because Marth is popular and is a staple of Smash Bros. Marth doesn't even use the Awakening design.
Chrom would logically replace Ike, but he probably won't.
Lucas was going to replace Ness in Melee, but he didn't. Because Ness became a staple due to Melee, him and Lucas got to co-exist.

but shielda may sound like a good idea on paper but in game it works horribly and it's pretty obvious sakurai didn't really care cause of how much lag it had and how awful it was in general in brawl, and you say newer character when impa is a more important character who has been around longer and I just think he didn't have the opportunity to replace her and he probably wanted to keep that playstyle

 

[Kenith]

but shielda may sound like a good idea on paper but in game it works horribly and it's pretty obvious sakurai didn't really care cause of how much lag it had and how awful it was in general in brawl, and you say newer character when impa is a more important character who has been around longer and I just think he didn't have the opportunity to replace her and he probably wanted to keep that playstyle

Here's an idea. How about you just separate Sheik from Zelda? Everybody wins.

 

[Gunla]

Feel free to, right next to my favorite nickname for him...Manbearpig.

Me and my friends like to call Ganondorf Jeff Bridges.

 

[Sonicguy726]

I can safely say that's not very good logic.

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

Here's an idea. How about you just separate Sheik from Zelda? Everybody wins.

no because that would be retarted since they are the same character

 

[Kenith]

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

Not really adding anything to the point, but there's always time constraints.

 

[Curious Villager]

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

I think he was more referring to the fact that you were using the trophies as an argument against Vaati which were mostly just model imports from various Wii and Gamecube games.

 

[josh bones]

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

Where was the Rosalina trophy/sticker?

 

[Sonicguy726]

Not really adding anything to the point, but there's always time constraints.

time constraints, really, it's a sticker which uses already created artwork, really

Where was the Rosalina trophy/sticker?

cause galaxy came out like a month before brawl

 

[josh bones]

cause galaxy came out like a month before brawl

Still, she didn't have your flawed criteria and she got in, so vaati could get in.

 

[Baskerville]

Significantly improve loading time for transformation.
Make the transformation a taunt command. That way Sheik can have her own Down B and Zelda's supposed Phantom can be her new one. Plus it opens up more options for both of them.
But of course, this is what I want to be done with it.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Sakurai seems to count Ocarina of Time 3D as a new game, so there's more reason to keep Sheik. Also because Sakurai doesn't want to cut characters, so why would he give an old characters moveset to a new character and not keep the old one?

While he's still essentially the same character he was replaced for a newcomer that wasn't much of a different case.

----
Anyway I hate that we have the thought that only tingle, tetra/toon Zelda, and Vaati are what many consider the options we have. Mainly only due to amount of appearances in some cases which just bores me to tears. There are a number of other options once you take away the "one shot" argument, nothing could stop sakurai from bringing them in and in doing so would not only insure them more popularity but more than likely future roles in their series.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Where was the Rosalina trophy/sticker?

Galaxy was meant to come out AFTER Smash Bros Brawl.

 

[Kenith]

time constraints, really, it's a sticker which uses already created artwork, really

That's not what I meant. I mean they probably only borrowed Trophies from Wii/GCN games because they didn't have time to make their own. Who's to say there wasn't a Vaati trophy planned?

If you have something else to say, don't make consecutive posts. Either Edit your previous post or wait for someone else. The mods will give you infractions if you keep double-posting.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Still, she didn't have your flawed criteria and she got in, so vaati could get in.

they are obviously not going to put in a trophy from a game that is unreleased when they had so many others to make, while vaati didn't get a sticker that would taker like 5 minutes to make, literally everybody got a sticker except vaati

That's not what I meant. I mean they probably only borrowed Trophies from Wii/GCN games because they didn't have time to make their own. Who's to say there wasn't a Vaati trophy planned?

If you have something else to say, don't make consecutive posts. Either Edit your previous post or wait for someone else. The mods will give you infractions if you keep double-posting.

but they didn't even bother with a sticker

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Are people seriously saying the lack of a STICKER of all things in Brawl makes a character unimportant?

 

[TumblrFamous]

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

Completely basing it off of trophies and stickers having the final say on characters is bad logic. I really can't say anything else, but that's it.

 

[Gunla]

Are people seriously saying the lack of a STICKER of all things in Brawl makes a character unimportant?

Oh my, people are certainly dropping to the bottom of the barrel for an arguement now, eh?

 

[Kenith]

Are people seriously saying the lack of a STICKER of all things in Brawl makes a character unimportant?

I'm not sure what the general consensus on things here is.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

why, that they didn't even bother to give vaati a sticker in brawl which clearly shows he's not important

Diddy didn't get a single trophy about him in Melee, yet he made the Brawl roster

 

[josh bones]

they are obviously not going to put in a trophy from a game that is unreleased when they had so many others to make, while vaati didn't get a sticker that would taker like 5 minutes to make, literally everybody got a sticker except vaati

You mean like how none of the newcomers got a sticker?

 

[TumblrFamous]

Anyway, on a Zelda newcomer, I would want Tetra (of some form, either her, T. Zelda, or both together), then Tingle, Ghirahim, Vaati, and then Impa.

 

[Sonicguy726]

That's not what I meant. I mean they probably only borrowed Trophies from Wii/GCN games because they didn't have time to make their own. Who's to say there wasn't a Vaati trophy planned?

If you have something else to say, don't make consecutive posts. Either Edit your previous post or wait for someone else. The mods will give you infractions if you keep double-posting.

Are people seriously saying the lack of a STICKER of all things in Brawl makes a character unimportant?

Completely basing it off of trophies and stickers having the final say on characters is bad logic. I really can't say anything else, but that's it.

literally everybody got a sticker though except vaati, they obviously either forgot or didn't care

 

[Deleted member]

Well, in that case, I don't see how Sheik stands out. Uniqueness is a terrible argument, as it is perceived and Sakurai could make a seemingly clone-material character play completely different.

Sure, Impa could replace Sheik. Hell, I'd prefer it. But it's unlikely because other characters have newer, popular characters to replace them, but won't.

Lucina would, logically, replace Marth as she is similar to him and is new and popular, but she did not because Marth is popular and is a staple of Smash Bros. Marth doesn't even use the Awakening design.
Chrom would logically replace Ike, but he probably won't.
Lucas was going to replace Ness in Melee, but he didn't. Because Ness became a staple due to Melee, him and Lucas got to co-exist.

Except Marth is literally the face of Fire Emblem. And Ness, cause of his Ninten incarnation, is a more recognizable protagonist.

Sheik is just.... Sheik, a one off. In contrast to Impa, who's practically the most important character in the series next to the Triforce Three.

Also, there is not "Smash staple" At least not for characters that don't represent their own series. Jigglypuff was almost cut from Brawl and was finally added as filler. So if Jiggs can go, why can't Sheik?

One thing we know for certain is that Sakurai makes the last decision on things, so if he wants Sheik to stay, then she will stay. I think it can be made to work if it's executed well. If he didn't care for Sheik or the concept, I would wager that he would've made that decision for Brawl. The loading time was crap, and should have remained shorter, I agree. I can't tell you how many times I've destroyed friends of mine because of that.

Loading time was crap due to hardware limitations, not because Sakurai intended it. Again, Sheik likely didn't go, cause there wasn't really anyone to replace the concept. He likes the ninja character concept, that much I can agree on.

I agree that Sakurai makes the final call, but that's beside the point, we're speculating here after all.

I don't think Zelda/Sheik is a bad concept. It makes sense. If a transformation can work on Charizard, then it surely can work with Sheik. What the Sheik transformation lacks is urgency and needing to switch. If Sheik can KO players without needing Zelda, then what is the point? There is hardly any reason to switch back into Zelda.

Basically, what SHOULD be done in my opinion, is Sheik should be fast, but weak, basically focusing on combos, while Zelda is most of the time necessary to get the KO. That would force the player to use both halves instead of never using Zelda.

At least that's what I see as broken with the concept. I don't see the need to trash it when you have the team to work with it and fix it.

For Shielda to work properly, you need to make them work fluidly like so:

Where you can switch between both forms at whim between combos, and BOTH character having moves that compliment each other for set ups and combos. Of which, Sheilda have neither.

Or, you have a 'build-up' transformation. Like in DBZ games. It can be "charge energy," "absorb energy," "build counters," etc... But the idea is simple, you build up a sort of "meter" (not in a literal sense mind you), to allow access to a next level form. With Shielda, this concept wouldn't work at all.

Imo, the two best characters for those concepts are:

Diddy+Dixie duo, working as an IC hybrid that can switch between the two monkeys at a whim. The 'swap out' would work much like the DKC games, and a more refined version of transform, since it's immediate, and with both monkeys have different yet complementary moves in their canon material, it's literally the perfect way to implement things. Considering Sakurai has already tried this idea once, I don't see why he wouldn't try again.

The second if like I said Charizard > Megazard X/Y. The idea I see, is basically, you choose the megaform pre-match. Each on specializes in something else. Y in mobility and aerial combat, and X on raw power. You build a meter with Zard (easiest way to just by dealing damage to opponents - and again, it can be a sort of aura like Lucario), once a certain bit is reached, you can go Mega for a while, or till you're K.O.ed, that's just balancing really, and you can use either transformed form of Zard till then, and then having to build the meter again. The whole concept focuses on having Zard build that meter, so he can land the killing moves with his Megaforms, much like the concept you say would be ideal of Shielda, but with the added bonus, that the transformation, being limited time or what have you, needs to be used carefully. Example, perhaps saving the Y transformation, to recover properly in dire times due to extra mobility would be prefered to using it outright, and perhaps wasting it, etc...

With Shielda, Sheik already does the killing just fine, especially with how Smash plays, and Zelda, Zelda doesn't DO anything. And again, in PM, where Zelda is a mighty good character alone, the Down B, is more of a nuisance than anything helpful, Zelda would be much better off having something else for that Down B, than transform, because it's honestly a wasted move slot.