Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Did he actually state that his intent was to have a character that is a character in transformation style? Is that just an assumption on your part? I mean that seems like a fan-interpreted intention.
It seems like Zero-Suit Samus or Pokemon Trainer were more cohesive as they have mechanics to dictate the play-style. I am just wondering if he actually stated that he wanted Zelda to transform into herself. I feel as though, even if it was true, that his intentions greatly differ almost 10 years down the line where Impa is WAY more important and relevant. It would be an efficient way of maintaining a play-style whilst adding a Newcomer.
If Zelda is indeed a separate character from Sheik this time around, that would only serve to prove that he no longer values what he valued 10 years ago. The developers haven't done anything with Sheik, she was in Brawl mostly because it became a part of her character, now she is considered a main-stay.

Zero Suit was more of an afterthought considering that her inclusion was mainly to "include more characters from the popular Metroid series" and to increase the amount of female characters.
Sources:
http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?62768-Wii-Sakurai-Comments-on-Super-Smash-Bros-Brawl-Poll
http://www.geocities.jp/bgrtype/gsl/words2/dairantosmabrax/smashbrothersx.html

And you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying Sakurai specifically wanted to include a character that transforms. I'm saying that the concept of Zelda being a transforming character is the reason why Sheik was in Melee in the first place as opposed to "recency" as Pacack was saying.

 

[Morbi]

Can we talk about how the assertion that, "Sheik and OoT aren't relevant" is a bad argument because of the OoT content in Smash 4?

Gerudo Valley stage, A trophy revealed today that is likely one of many from that game...

I'd say that kills any advantage Impa had by Smashboards standards anyway.

It doesn't correlate to her advantage, it was never about Sheik becoming irrelevant. It was more about Impa becoming relevant to be honest. That isn't the only feasible argument, but since we are focusing on this one notion, I thought I should assert that there is a difference. If relevance had to do with Sheik's cut, she would have been cut in Brawl. It isn't about Sheik necessarily, it is about Impa more so.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I just think he's too big.

You just had to say that, didn't you.

 

[Anderceus]

How about they include this version of Impa?

You just had to say that, didn't you.

It's my job to be "that guy".

 

[Morbi]

The "too big" argument exists for a reason.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

How about they include this version of Impa?

Sweet mother of God! Oh well, ain't CD-I Impa, at least.

 

[Gunla]

Slightly off topic, but it's done. May have forgot a few things, but the main arguement is here.

LOGIC BULLET TIME!

So, it's been noted that Smash 4 is a balance of Melee and Brawl in many aspects. With most people on this website being part of the crew that is "hardcore Nintendo Fans, (including myself)", a lot of us seem to fare moreso towards traditional franchises. A majority felt that Brawl was focused on the Casual Aspect of Nintendo.

Many of us here are putting our rosters up as specifically hardcore rosters. Nothing that features any sort of knowledge of the casual side of Nintendo. I find it confusing that people are acting like this casual side does not even exist.

It's hard to ignore that the casual side of Nintendo doesn't matter. The Wii is a broader console directed at a variety of people. The consumers were drawn by Smash, and they were drawn off by the nature of Melee, being a competitive-focused game. By this, it's hard to deny they have huge importance. As much as the Hardcore crowd, folks. We can whine about how they don't matter, but in reality, they do.

Primarily, games like Wii Fit have sold a crapton. Look at those sales (Wii Sports is a pack-in, being ignored here)! Nintendo has admitted that they've slightly focused on the casual crowd at times during the last few years. The Wii U has been a better balance of it. We have main franchises like Mario and Pikmin. Additionally, we have casual installments, such as Wii Sports Club or Wii Fit U. These sell like hotcakes because unlike other games, they are wider reaching. Yeah, Miis are an example of this, as is Wii Fit. By these terms, Wii Fit is an incredibly popular franchise from Nintendo that has been well known. The only big difference is that it's hitting a different crowd. By not taking this into consideration, we're pretty much saying Nintendo is going to betray their casual audience. Which is an insane move that Nintendo wouldn't likely do, as I thought back pre-E3. Though back then, I hated Miis as much as I hate them now, and I was convinced that the issues with "Questionable Miis" would block their inclusion.

The irony of course is that the people adoring the Miis in the varies Wii titles aren't the same people that are interested in Super Smash Bros.

Now onto the arguement that Casuals don't care about Smash Bros...
Brawl. Brawl was designed to appeal to casual audiences moreso. It's not like they are going to ignore it. People around the world are drawn in by Smash each franchise. Brawl is no exception. Tons of Casuals flocked and are interested about the franchise now. Many of my friends are casuals and competitives alike, the casuals started with Brawl and the competitives started with 64 or Melee. Yeah, people are going to care. I've heard casuals and competitives think that Mii is likely, regardless of that person's bias. But, this is about WFT, isn't it?

Back to her.

Wii Fit is one of the big casual franchises, with Brawl being a casual-esque game. People now are interested in Smash 4, regardless of their side on Nintendo's player/consumer base. With Wii Fit being the equivalent on importance of the casual Legend of Zelda (in terms of importance to the playerbase, not in actuality, mind you, those games are completely different!) So my Pre-E3 self was a primarily competitive person. I like Wii Fit, however, as I've noted before. I didn't expect Sakurai to just ignore and betray both sides this time around, instead combining the best of both worlds. So my first roster I ever made included WFT. And what are we seeing? Just that. So in actuality... Is WFT really a WTF character? Or is she moreso a casual powerhouse? I believe the latter, folks. She's not surprising if you really take it from another side. Mii is different, it's for another day.

Now, on to her chances and my beliefs as to why she had a big shot and was revealed, coming from pre-Smash reveals. Want doesn't matter.

Wii Fit Trainer
Pros.
+Incredibly Popular Franchise. Wii Fit is big, no denying it.
+Iconic to many casual gamers.
+Sales. These do matter, but it's not the entirety.
+Unique. I don't see any fitness nuts here. And she's got fitness moves, moves that would make sense in a fighting game.
Cons.
-The only con I thought of was that she's not a hardcore character. "But then again, remember that Smash is likely going a best of both worlds route."
Overall- I thought she had a big shot, the biggest of all casual characters. Of course, I was slightly off.... on the aspect that I thought it would be the MALE trainer. None of this "Females" arguement. Back before the reveals, that wasn't even a thing!

So there you have it. That's my thoughts on WFT, why I thought Mister Fit would get in and I was slightly off, and why she's not really that WTF.

 

[Anderceus]

Sweet mother of God! Oh well, ain't CD-I Impa, at least.

Oh, I completely forgot about her! She'd much a much better inclusion!

NOW WE'RE TALKIN'!

 

[Deleted member]

My mistake on the relevancy thing, certainly. Probably had more to do with OoT's ridiculous success more than anything, then.

Impa was, admittedly, not as important as Sheik was in OoT. Sheik appeared several times throughout the course of the game, while Impa appeared like, two times.

That, and Sheik is Zelda, anyway. Anything Zelda did in OoT counts too.

I believe I saw that Sakurai said he was just looking for a character to fit a ninja archetype in an interview, but I'll need to dig it up, as I don't remember where it was.

I never heard this. I'd be interested to see it should you find it.

And, even if that was the case, we have Pokemon Trainer to fill the transforming archetype now. And he has three different characters to switch between. If the concept never worked terribly well for Sheilda, why not split them and just keep Pokemon Trainer in that role?

That's not transforming; that's a different gimmick altogether.
You're a character that's controlling 3 different creatures from the safety of the background.
And that aside, you are under the assumption that Sheilda's concept "doesn't work" while Trainer's does. Trainer is arguably worse off considering the stamina, forced switching, and type weakness (which heavily cripples Ivysaur while barely affecting Squirtle and Charizard) features. By this logic, Trainer should be axed entirely while leaving Charizard on it's own.

 

[Pacack]

Can we talk about how the assertion that, "Sheik and OoT aren't relevant" is a bad argument because of the OoT content in Smash 4?

Gerudo Valley stage, A trophy revealed today that is likely one of many from that game...

I'd say that kills any advantage Impa had by Smashboards standards anyway.

It doesn't correlate to her advantage, it was never about Sheik becoming irrelevant. It was more about Impa becoming relevant to be honest. That isn't the only feasible argument, but since we are focusing on this one notion, I thought I should assert that there is a difference. If relevance had to do with Sheik's cut, she would have been cut in Brawl. It isn't about Sheik necessarily, it is about Impa more so.

I could not have said it better.

How about they include this version of Impa?

Believe it or not, I'd actually be very happy with the inclusion of Old Lady Impa. She is, after all, one of the most important parts of the character. She's probably more important than Ninja Impa by a fair amount...it's just that Ninja Impa is much easier to impliment as a fighter.

Though, please, Link Between Worlds design.

Spoiler

 

[Anderceus]

Slightly off topic, but it's done. May have forgot a few things, but the main arguement is here.

LOGIC BULLET TIME!

So, it's been noted that Smash 4 is a balance of Melee and Brawl in many aspects. With most people on this website being part of the crew that is "hardcore Nintendo Fans", a lot of us seem to fare moreso towards traditional franchises. A majority felt that Brawl was focused on the Casual Aspect of Nintendo.

Many of us here are putting our rosters up as specifically hardcore rosters. Nothing that features any sort of knowledge of the casual side of Nintendo. I find it confusing that people are acting like this casual side does not even exist.

It's hard to ignore that the casual side of Nintendo doesn't matter. The Wii is a broader console directed at a variety of people. The consumers were drawn by Smash, and they were drawn off by the nature of Melee, being a competitive-focused game. By this, it's hard to deny they have huge importance. As much as the Hardcore crowd, folks. We can whine about how they don't matter, but in reality, they do.

Primarily, games like Wii Fit have sold a crapton. Look at those sales (Wii Sports is a pack-in, being ignored here)! Nintendo has admitted that they've slightly focused on the casual crowd at times during the last few years. The Wii U has been a better balance of it. We have main franchises like Mario and Pikmin. Additionally, we have casual installments, such as Wii Sports Club or Wii Fit U. These sell like hotcakes because unlike other games, they are wider reaching. Yeah, Miis are an example of this, as is Wii Fit. By these terms, Wii Fit is an incredibly popular franchise from Nintendo that has been well known. The only big difference is that it's hitting a different crowd. By not taking this into consideration, we're pretty much saying Nintendo is going to betray their casual audience. Which is an insane move that Nintendo wouldn't likely do, as I thought back pre-E3. Though back then, I hated Miis as much as I hate them now, and I was convinced that the issues with "Questionable Miis" would block their inclusion.


Now onto the arguement that Casuals don't care about Smash Bros...
Brawl. Brawl was designed to appeal to casual audiences moreso. It's not like they are going to ignore it. People around the world are drawn in by Smash each franchise. Brawl is no exception. Tons of Casuals flocked and are interested about the franchise now. Many of my friends are casuals and competitives alike, the casuals started with Brawl and the competitives started with 64 or Melee. Yeah, people are going to care. I've heard casuals and competitives think that Mii is likely, regardless of that person's bias. But, this is about WFT, isn't it?

Back to her.

Wii Fit is one of the big casual franchises, with Brawl being a casual-esque game. People now are interested in Smash 4, regardless of their side on Nintendo's player/consumer base. With Wii Fit being the equivalent on importance of the casual Legend of Zelda (in terms of importance to the playerbase, not in actuality, mind you, those games are completely different!) So my Pre-E3 self was a primarily competitive person. I like Wii Fit, however, as I've noted before. I didn't expect Sakurai to just ignore and betray both sides this time around, instead combining the best of both worlds. So my first roster I ever made included WFT. And what are we seeing? Just that. So in actuality... Is WFT really a WTF character? Or is she moreso a casual powerhouse? I believe the latter, folks. She's not surprising if you really take it from another side. Mii is different, it's for another day.

Now, on to her chances and my beliefs as to why she had a big shot and was revealed, coming from pre-Smash reveals. Want doesn't matter.

Wii Fit Trainer
Pros.
+Incredibly Popular Franchise. Wii Fit is big, no denying it.
+Iconic to many casual gamers.
+Sales. These do matter, but it's not the entirety.
+Unique. I don't see any fitness nuts here. And she's got fitness moves, moves that would make sense in a fighting game.
Cons.
-The only con I thought of was that she's not a hardcore character. "But then again, remember that Smash is likely going a best of both worlds route."
Overall- I thought she had a big shot, the biggest of all casual characters. Of course, I was slightly off.... on the aspect that I thought it would be the MALE trainer. None of this "Females" arguement. Back before the reveals, that wasn't even a thing!

So there you have it. That's my thoughts on WFT, why I thought Mister Fit would get in and I was slightly off, and why she's not really that WTF.

AND Wii FIT TRAINER IS HAWT!

 

[Gunla]

Best of Both Worlds:

Impa's down special makes her age/get younger. As an Impa supporter, I'd be down with that.

 

[Deleted member]

The "too big" argument exists for a reason.

A lot stupid things exist for stupid reasons.

 

[Morbi]

@ Gunla
You essentially comprehend everything there is to know. Once someone finally understands that Nintendo is a video-game company for the casual demographic, speculation becomes much easier. One could blatantly deny the plausibility of a casual character as they so desire, but in the end, it doesn't change who Nintendo is trying to appeal. The 3DS version implemented alongside the Wii U variant should have made this notion overt and concise, yet some fail to understand that ramifications of such. I am proud of you, finally someone understands.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

For all we know, Sakurai may think Ridley is actually too big. But that's the only weight to that argument.

Any character can be resized. It just depends on whether or not the character can be resized well. I see people say that it can't happen. Well, sure it can happen! But Sakurai's team could have trouble doing it properly. But then again, it's a team of probably at least over 100 people. So SOMEBODY will figure it out.

I don't like to talk in absolutes. We all know that Ridley can be resized. It's not a matter of "if", but instead "how" it gets done.

Size isn't going to stop Ridley. I think if Sakurai wants to make Ridley playable, then he'll be playable. There's simply no telling what the answer to that is. Sakurai likely knows of the popularity of the character. It just comes down to whether or not he thinks it's a good idea.

 

[Morbi]

A lot stupid things exist for stupid reasons.

Sadly the Ridley is "too big" argument is essentially irrefutable without making assumptions. That is the inherent problem. It isn't necessarily the "too big" portion that is irrefutable, by extension his size alludes to the real problem, the difficulty of development.

 

[BluePikmin11]

@ Gunla
You essentially comprehend everything there is to know. Once someone finally understands that Nintendo is a video-game company for the casual demographic, speculation becomes much easier. One could blatantly deny the plausibility of a casual character as they so desire, but in the end, it doesn't change who Nintendo is trying to appeal. The 3DS version implemented alongside the Wii U variant should have made this notion overt and concise, yet some fail to understand that ramifications of such. I am proud of you, finally someone understands.

Yeah, more people should be open to even more characters, otherwise their own opinions will used as uses for speculation.

 

[Deleted member]

Sadly the Ridley is "too big" argument is essentially irrefutable without making assumptions. That is the inherent problem. It isn't necessarily the "too big" portion that is irrefutable, by extension his size alludes to the real problem, the difficulty of development.

It may be because I'm still tired, but I read that as a penis joke.

 

[Gunla]

Size isn't going to stop Ridley. I think if Sakurai wants to make Ridley playable, then he'll be playable. There's simply no telling what the answer to that is. Sakurai likely knows of the popularity of the character. It just comes down to whether or not he thinks it's a good idea.

We all know how much Bowser's been resized, so Ridley shouldn't be a problem. Too Big is one of the few arguements that has no power without a logical explanation, by itself or as part of a group.

 

[ChaosSoul]

im gona be honest with you guys I am not excited about the returning fighters as of this post I have three of my best characters back in the next game ( sonic link and toon link) the only thing that gets me happy is to find out that a cool new character that offers a new playstyle for me to master

We all know how much Bowser's been resized, so Ridley shouldn't be a problem. Too Big is one of the few arguements that has no power without a logical explanation, by itself or as part of a group.

that sentence plus your profile pic could be taken right out of kid Icarus uprising lol

 

[Anderceus]

For all we know, Sakurai may think Ridley is actually too big. But that's the only weight to that argument.

Any character can be resized. It just depends on whether or not the character can be resized well. I see people say that it can't happen. Well, sure it can happen! But Sakurai's team could have trouble doing it properly. But then again, it's a team of probably at least over 100 people. So SOMEBODY will figure it out.

I don't like to talk in absolutes. We all know that Ridley can be resized. It's not a matter of "if", but instead "how" it gets done.

Size isn't going to stop Ridley. I think if Sakurai wants to make Ridley playable, then he'll be playable. There's simply no telling what the answer to that is. Sakurai likely knows of the popularity of the character. It just comes down to whether or not he thinks it's a good idea.

(not my picture, by the way)

 

[Morbi]

im gona be honest with you guys I am not excited about the returning fighters as of this post I have three of my best characters back in the next game ( sonic link and toon link) the only thing that gets me happy is to find out that a cool new character that offers a new playstyle for me to master

That is how I feel, I am a Smash veteran, so I have been a part of Smash for over a decade at this point. If it is more of the same, I am not going to play it very long. This stagnant and lethargic mentality that most of the community labors under is quite irritable.

It may be because I'm still tired, but I read that as a penis joke.

You got me.

 

[LoneKonWolf]

Arg great, i'm completely locked into my house thanks to snowfall, along with it being -40 degrees outside, just perfect

well anyway what's the topic? ridley, old impa, and axle's logic bullet statement?

 

[Gunla]

(not my picture, by the way)

And remember when Bowser was planet sized, too?

 

[Pacack]

That, and Sheik is Zelda, anyway. Anything Zelda did in OoT counts too.

HISS! SPOILERS!!!

Spoiler

I never heard this. I'd be interested to see it should you find it.

You'll be the first to see it if and when I find it.

That's not transforming; that's a different gimmick altogether.
You're a character that's controlling 3 different creatures from the safety of the background.
And that aside, you are under the assumption that Sheilda's concept "doesn't work" while Trainer's does. Trainer is arguably worse off considering the stamina, forced switching, and type weakness (which heavily cripples Ivysaur while barely affecting Squirtle and Charizard) features. By this logic, Trainer should be axed entirely while leaving Charizard on it's own.

That is certainly a transformation character. You switch between multiple movesets. While, obviously, the character itself isn't transforming, it is a "transformation" character at its core.

And Sheilda could be balanced, but, with a possible replacement available (and the fewer newcomers this time around), Sakurai may very well decide to add Impa instead.

I fully expect that the stamina and forced switching will be changed with Namco-Bandai working on this game. Though, honestly, if properly balanced, the Trainer's pokemon would be switched often anyways, I imagine.

(Also, I do think it is a possibility that Charizard will be the only one staying, but not because of inbalance.)

 

[Morbi]

Arg great, i'm completely locked into my house thanks to snowfall, along with it being -40 degrees outside,

well anyway what's the topic? ridley, old impa, and axle's logic bullet statement?

-40? Mate, I think you might die. Don't go outside, mate. It is dangerous, if you do, take your Grandmother's advice. Scarfs, gloves, hats, 5 sweaters, no exposed skin, mate. This reminds me, Sub-Zero for Smash?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

(not my picture, by the way)

Take it to the Ridley thread. We've been through that before. He should be a bit bigger than the bottom picture.

At least that picture isn't what I want.

 

[Baskerville]

I'll ask this again: When has canon size EVER mattered in a crossover fighting game?

 

[ChaosSoul]

Arg great, i'm completely locked into my house thanks to snowfall, along with it being -40 degrees outside, just perfect

well anyway what's the topic? ridley, old impa, and axle's logic bullet statement?

hu that's strange the snow at my area just melted so it shouldn't last too long you will be outside son freind

 

[Gunla]

-40? Mate, I think you might die. Don't go outside, mate. It is dangerous, if you do, take your Grandmother's advice. Scarfs, gloves, hats, 5 sweaters, no exposed skin, mate. This reminds me, Sub-Zero for Smash?

How about Noob Saibot instead?

 

[Anderceus]

And remember when Bowser was planet sized, too?

And remember when they were almost the same height?

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Someone pull up the melee ridley intro gif, now.

 

[Deleted member]

(not my picture, by the way)

 

[LoneKonWolf]

-40? Mate, I think you might die. Don't go outside, mate. It is dangerous, if you do, take your Grandmother's advice. Scarfs, gloves, hats, 5 sweaters, no exposed skin, mate. This reminds me, Sub-Zero for Smash?

yep -42 to be exact, and I can't even if I tried too, the doors are jammed with snow, the only way out if I climb through a window or work about an half hour if I shovel it out, its also cold enough to give frost bite in minutes out there too, I'm just glad the heaters are running, and I would take grandmothers advice if I could, sadly I can't

 

[ChaosSoul]

I'll ask this again: When has canon size EVER mattered in a crossover fighting game?

it doent but then again (looks at how sackboy is up to kratos knee and still beats the shiz out of him) it just is the way the world works games are played and people complain

 

[Morbi]

I'll ask this again: When has canon size EVER mattered in a crossover fighting game?

There aren't THAT many cross-over fighting games to illustrate an effective precedent. Smash has Olimar though, that is enough to refute ANY scaling argument. Well... maybe if an Amoeba was taller than Ganon I would call BS.

 

[Pacack]

-40? Mate, I think you might die. Don't go outside, mate. It is dangerous, if you do, take your Grandmother's advice. Scarfs, gloves, hats, 5 sweaters, no exposed skin, mate. This reminds me, Sub-Zero for Smash?

(I think he's using Celsius, btw)

And remember when they were almost the same height?

Remember when Samus and Ridley were?

 

[Morbi]

Ridley

Ridley supporters want Ridley to be twice the size of Samus? Hell no, too big.

 

[Autumn ♫]

And remember when they were almost the same height?

Remember when Samus and Ridley were almost the same height?

Dangit, Ninja'd

 

[Morbi]

Remember when Samus and Ridley were almost the same height?

This is a version of Ridley that is feasible. Not too big or anything.