Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Good Afternoon all, hope you're all doing well. Well, I can see the current topics are random arguments with a hint of obnoxious/random bore topics thrown in. You people really need to find better ways to entertain yourselves. Regardless, here, talk about this...

Spoiler

Dark Matter, a fine boss character with multiple forms.

I've always wanted him as the new Kirby rep, though I bet that Sakurai isn't really fond of the Dark Matter Saga Kirby games. Not to mention Bandanna Dee has a much better change than him/her/it. Still a pretty badass character that needs to be in future Kirby games.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Right.

Spoiler

He uses a sword and has the same hair color as Marth...insta-clone. I mean didn't you learn from Ganondorf's experience? He and Captain Falcon are totally the same! I sincerely hope you know I'm being as sarcastic as possible with this.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Rhythm Heaven character, y/n

These are all the "not quite realistic or likely, but still not entirely goddamn out there" characters I could think of.

Looking at all of these Rhythm characters, I just thought of an idea, what if there was an "original" Rhythm Heaven character that derives lots of it's moves from various Rhythm Heaven minigames. I shall call him Mr. Rhythm Heaven.
Pretty much a Mr. Game & Watch character.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well, it's technically impossible for Dillon to have a carbon copy of Sonic's moveset. First off, that wouldn't make much sense because Dillon doesn't emphasize kicking at all, especially considering those stubby legs of his making kicks like how Sonic does it pretty impossible. Second, even if it was possible, it would heavily deviate from Dillon's character. One of his key skills is brutal slashes from his claws, and to see him not use that in any shape or form is a huge deviation.

 

[Louie G.]

I shall call him Mr. Rhythm Heaven.

I'm just going to leave this here.

Don't make a Rhythm Heaven character if there are already Rhythm Heaven characters.

 

[Chandeelure]

I've always wanted him as the new Kirby rep, though I bet that Sakurai isn't really fond of the Dark Matter Saga Kirby games. Not to mention Bandanna Dee has a much better change than him/her/it. Still a pretty badass character that needs to be in future Kirby games.

Him

 

[Hotfeet444]

Second, even if it was possible, it would heavily deviate from Dillon's character.

Deviation from a character's routes hasn't stopped Sakurai before... Hell, in terms of Smash Bros, Zelda is probably the series that strays away from character's routes in general.

 

[FinalStarmen]

I really don't think recency should be a reason to add this one-off character who is less popular, less unique, and significant.

What I don't understand is why you consistently attack Chrom for all these incredibly-biased and fallacious reasons, disregarding that one would have attacked Roy with the very same reasoning (had Roy been made well aware as a character). In terms of recency, Chrom is a fairly recently-introduced Lord from a fairly recently-introduced game, while Roy wasn't even introduced until after Melee (and thus even more recent than Chrom would be). In terms of popularity, Chrom is incredibly popular star within his own constellation and pretty well-requested as a Super Smash Brothers character, while Roy is already immensely popular in both this universe and his own (popularity boosted through an appearance in Super Smash Brothers, which I will address momentarily). In terms of uniqueness, Chrom is somewhat crippled by his comparative similarities to Marth, which may-or-may-not affect his moveset, while Roy was the straightforward clone of Marth (hence we are dealing with contrasting a hypothetical position versus an actual confirmation of a previous one).

(EDIT: It also just occurred to me you might have actually referred to Chrom as a one-off character... just like Roy.)

Now, of course, when we compare the two characters, I will concede Roy has distinctively-unique advantages over Chrom in certain categories, yet almost all of them have to do with Roy actually participating in a Super Smash Brothers title. Is Chrom less popular? I will grant you that, but that is because Roy actually had an appearance with Super Smash Brothers, and thus more overall exposure to various fan-bases. With all considered, Chrom is still fairly popular (just ask Opossum about what polls say), just not at Roy level. Is Chrom less significant? Perhaps, but then again, without Super Smash Brothers, Roy would be as iconic as Leaf and Sigurd to non-Fire Emblem fans - not at all.

But is Chrom less unique? That is quite debatable. Perhaps it would be appropriate to bring up some of the conversation I've had with ChronoBound over this matter: a comparison between the two characters in terms of qualitative attributes:


1. When comparing the fundamental elements of Roy to those of Marth, what exactly differentiates the two Fire Emblem Lords from what they offer to the overall roster of Super Smash Brothers, specifically in relation to their identical (but not indistinguishable) move-sets? I'll explain momentarily. Which also leads me to:
A. If Roy's moveset can be programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth, then why can't Chrom's?
B. If Roy's moveset cannot be (for whatever reason) programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth, then what purpose should Roy provide, other than popular fan-service?

Now, of course, we can form an inverse of the same application towards Chrom (as a form of reference):

2. When comparing the potential fundamental elements of Chrom to those of Marth/Ike, what exactly differentiates Chrom from the other two in what they offer to the overall roster of Super Smash Brothers, specifically in relation to their move-sets? Leading into:
A. If Chrom's moveset can be programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth/Ike, then why can't Roy's?
B. If Chrom's moveset cannot be (for whatever reason) programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth/Ike, then what purpose should Chrom provide, other than a measure of having recency?


It would be foolish of me to consider Chrom and Roy's attributable values as entirely correlated based upon their apparent similarities, yet it would be equally foolish not to take careful notice of such similarities if we are to discuss their differences.

All Roy has going for him in terms of uniqueness is his physical features being far-more aesthetically pleasing to the eye, so while it is essential to consider outward appearance as a deciding factor, it is not the deciding factor of a character's overall uniqueness. What type of game-play they can bring to the balance of the roster's fighters is another crucial aspect of uniqueness, one that concerns both Chrom and Roy in a questionable manner.

You realize he's DLC in Fire Emblem Awakening right? You know a lot of characters haven't appeared in a game in a long time. So what?

In addressing your statements regarding Roy as a DLC character, I must bring up one major point of contention, and another of concession.


The contention: Being a component of Awakening DLC is incredibly insignificant to a Fire Emblem characters' chances, considering they are an optional asset that doesn't in any way significantly effect the main-game story-line whatsoever. Roy's appearance as DLC, while technically reappearing in a main series game, 1) goes for all Lords of previous iterations of the series and 2) is reduced to a discretionary position of optionality, not as a majorly important character. Awakening DLC means next to nothing.

The concession: What I believe RoysOurBoy was trying to convey was whether or not Masahiro Sakurai and Intelligent Systems is done with the Roy character in terms of his utility and functionality to both Super Smash Brothers and Fire Emblem. If so, I disagree wholeheartedly.

I do not necessarily agree Roy's absence from the mainstream titles would be detrimental to his surviving endurance in popularity (considering almost all Lords have a lifespan of one game); more-or-less, I assume (perhaps incorrectly) RoyOurBoy is worried about Intelligent Systems requesting Sakurai to implement Chrom for the sake of advertisement of Awakening, and perhaps the SMT X FE crossover, simply because he is a recently-recognizable character that would be more-so familiar to the generational parts of the whole fan-base sum (although the iconic Marth and Ike would also do just as well). In fact, if Roy were to return, then by all means, an English-translated remake is very much possible (although it didn't serve Lucas any favors for Mother 3).


However, it still does raise the question of how Roy is importantly perceived through priority. Personally, if Sakurai is willing to grant the popular suggestion in returning Mewtwo to playable inclusion, then I see no reason to not bring back Roy as well.

I see no reason to think that when they were originally planned in Brawl. He and Roy had the most data.

Obviously, complications occurred. Interestingly, while many others may believe that Roy's spectacular return would also herald the equally-if-not-more-so spectacular return of Mewtwo, I also somewhat believe in the inverse - Mewtwo's resurrection from the unplayable dead may prove the same for Roy. Currently, my perception of the situation is that Mewtwo upholds higher priority, and therefore should be the first cut Melee veteran to be brought back, followed by Roy.


I'm only trying to speak the dubious words of the Devil's Advocate, as I would support the inclusion of Roy more-so than Chrom (if such a choice came down to those two). My issues, then, lie not within your support of Roy and detraction of Chrom, but rather the reasoning for such support and detraction.


TL:DR: A case of throwing rocks in glass houses. Both Roy and Chrom are plagued with the same disease their detractors say they suffer from (lack of uniqueness in analytic comparison to their own counterparts) so it is quite hypocritical for one support-base to detract on the other character for the same infliction their own character suffers from equally.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Deviation from a character's routes hasn't stopped Sakurai before...

Dillon suits more with his claws. Just like how Little Mac suits more with punches.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Oh, speaking of character deviations and Chrom.

Give the guy a shot gun and a broken bottle of vodka. That is literally the only thing that will make him interesting.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Snip

Love the effort you put into arguments!

 

[Deleted member]

@Hotfeet: For it's time it wasn't that drastic of a deviation.

Now it's just outdated.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Dillon suits more with his claws. Just like how Little Mac suits more with punches.

Dillon suits more with his claws? Wolf Clone.

No seriously, who the hell came up with this logic that drips with so much stupidity I'm surprised it's not leaking a mess out onto the floor? Because all I'm doing is making fun of it.

@Hotfeet: For it's time it wasn't that drastic of a deviation.

Now it's just outdated.

Considering at the time it was created at that Ganondorf never physically touched another person in fist-on-fist combat, and did so at least twice before the release of Brawl, it's more accepting now than it was then. Then again, I use the term "Accepting" VEEEEERY loosely.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well thought out snippet you made there FinalStarmen.

Ya done good!

 

[Louie G.]

Oh, speaking of character deviations and Chrom.

Give the guy a shot gun and a broken bottle of vodka. That is literally the only thing that will make him interesting.

Chrom confirmed to be a clone of Demoman.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering at the time it was created at that Ganondorf never physically touched another person in fist-on-fist combat, and did so at least twice before the release of Brawl, it's more accepting now than it was then. Then again, I use the term "Accepting" VEEEEERY loosely.

By that logic, Zelda's entire moveset is less acceptable considering the only thing she did from it was transform into Sheik.
...in which even in "Sheik Mode", she never did anything from that moveset either.

EDIT: And I see the need to post this artwork again...

Spoiler

While in-game he just floats and shoots electric balls at you, I'm pretty sure this official artwork has him trying to "knock Link the **** out".

 

[FlareHabanero]

Chrom confirmed to be a clone of Demoman.

Too bad he's not a black Scottish cyclops.

 

[TopTierPichu]

By that logic, Zelda's entire moveset is less acceptable considering the only thing she did from it was transform into Sheik.
...in which even in "Sheik Mode", she never did anything from that moveset either.

she disappeared (up b) and turned into zelda

 

[Hotfeet444]

By that logic, Zelda's entire moveset is less acceptable considering the only thing she did from it was transform into Sheik.
...in which even in "Sheik Mode", she never did anything from that moveset either.

Can't exactly use the same logic for both Zelda and Ganondorf. The difference is that unlike Zelda, Ganondorf actually had material to work with and had no reason to be the way he was. Zelda and Sheik, on the other hand, did not have nearly anything to make a moveset off of.

Chrom confirmed to be a clone of Demoman.

As long as I can double-donk with the Loose Cannon and bring out the Pan, I ain't got no complaints.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I just wanted to let everyone know that starting this Saturday, my team and I will reveal a newcomer every Saturday!
Come in the Dojo thread in my sig at 10 Am Eastern Time this Saturday for the first newcomer reveal for Project Bidoof!
I won't say anything except that I hope you like classic, one-shot NES games!

 

[FlareHabanero]

Zelda and Sheik, on the other hand, did not have nearly anything to make a moveset off of.

Zelda had magic and Sheik has ninjutsu. Don't know how that's apparently not enough to make a moveset out of.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Chromosexuals. Gotta use that term Divine made up.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Zelda had magic and Sheik has ninjutsu. Don't know how that's apparently not enough to make a moveset out of.

Because Zelda showed no real magic at the time other than magically opening doors and all Sheik did was vanish, play music and monologue. If that's apparently enough to make a moveset out of, why does Zelda use magic spells that only Link uses and basically everything Sheik does, aside from her up + B, is entirely made up for Smash Bros?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Because Zelda showed no real magic at the time other than magically opening doors and all Sheik did was vanish, play music and monologue. If that's apparently enough to make a moveset out of, why does Zelda use magic spells that only Link uses and basically everything Sheik does, aside from her up + B, is entirely made up for Smash Bros?

It's called archetypes. It's not rocket science.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I'd just like to chime in and say that, while I agree that it doesn't impact a characters chances for Smash that much, I disagree with the notion that all past FE characters are affected equally by FE13s DLC. For one, not all Lotds were given rededigns. Sigurd, Eliwood, and Hecor did not recieve redesigns at all. Additionally, not all characters who did recieve redesigns were treated equally (and no, I'm not talking about the quality of their designs). Certain characters were given more important roles than others. Compare, say, Roy, who is the leader of both the armies of Elibe and Magvel in the first two Smash Brethren maps, to Leif, who is placed in a secondary role on the map you fight him in.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Chandeelure]

Now I'm sad.

 

[Deleted member]

@Hotfeet
Again, in-game Ganondorf just floated and shot electric balls.

Not exactly enough "material" to work with. At the very least, even if he doesn't shoot the balls, the electricity was included in his up special.

 

[Louie G.]

@Hotfeet
Again, in-game Ganondorf just floated and shot electric balls.

Not exactly enough "material" to work with. At the very least, even if he doesn't shoot the balls, the electricity was included in his up special.

I do think that Ganondorf/Ganon had more to work with than say, Ice Climbers.
Definitely enough to be his own character.
It's a shame that his true potential hasn't been touched upon yet.

 

[Deleted member]

If it was the big pig Ganon that was included, then I would be inclined to say there was material to go by.

But it was human (well, Gerudo) Ganondorf. Who didn't have much to work with other than floating....and electric balls....and I suppose that megaton fist at the beginning of his boss fight, but that wasn't exactly used for combat, now was it?

 

[Autumn ♫]

@Hotfeet
Again, in-game Ganondorf just floated and shot electric balls.

Not exactly enough "material" to work with. At the very least, even if he doesn't shoot the balls, the electricity was included in his up special.

It's still more than Zelda had, and like Lougie G. said, the Ice Climber's had even less than that.
EDIT:What's up with the commenting system? Took me 3 tries to get this up.

 

[Hotfeet444]

@Hotfeet
Again, in-game Ganondorf just floated and shot electric balls.

Not exactly enough "material" to work with. At the very least, even if he doesn't shoot the balls, the electricity was included in his up special.

It was a little more than that. There was the floating, the Electric magic, the bolts of magic that shot out in waves, the earthquake tremor, the sealing magic used to seal Zelda, the Dark Wave used to nullify the power of Link's triforce, he could have used a brutal magic style as opposed to Zelda's more elegant magic style. Hell, I could easily take those things and turn it into a moveset befitting of Ganondorf, and I can guarantee that there would be no connection to Captain Falcon whatsoever.

Edit: And although this came after Ocarina of Time, that damn sword they show him with couldn't have been used? At all?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Don't know why everyone is so attached to the canon, because it's pretty obvious that it's not taken to heart.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

How'd this argument even start in the first place?

 

[Hotfeet444]

Don't know why everyone is so attached to the canon, because it's pretty obvious that it's not taken to heart.

Well, define "Not taken to heart". The characters keep their appearances and their abilities from the games, but their levels of overall power and prowess are diminished. I mean, this is why Ganondorf doesn't brutally murder people, Sonic doesn't break the game engine with his real speed prowess, and Mewtwo can't liquify someone's mind. The usage of Canon is not entire in Smash Bros, but it needs to be taken into account for certain things. Exactly why you don't see a character like Link running around with an AK-47.

How'd this argument even start in the first place?

I claimed that Ganondorf's character in Smash Bros doesn't stick to the source material of the character and deviates from his real character in the actual Zelda games.

 

[BKupa666]

As far as Ganondorf's moveset goes, there's no excuse for leaving it the same this time after revamping Bowser, whose need for a revamp was comparatively lower.

 

[Deleted member]

So, the two things I listed, another version of one of the two things I listed, the megaton punch I brought up in a previous post (yes, it causes shockwaves, but those are a result of the megaton fist), "sealing magic" (why does this count but not Zelda's restraint magic?), and a "wave of darkness" that nullified Navi (not Link's Triforce) that was more or less an exertion of battle aura.

I'd say outside from the fact he doesn't shoot the electric balls, Ganondorf's Melee moveset is a rather fitting set that incorporates the main aspects of that while serving it's purpose of copying C. Falcon's moveset.

So I will reiterate; Ganondorf's moves at the time were not that drastic of a deviation of his character. But it's outdated now.

EDIT:

Edit: And although this came after Ocarina of Time, that damn sword they show him with couldn't have been used? At all?

He couldn't use the sword and be a clone of Falcon, defeating the purpose of why he has the moves he had in the first place.
He was never intended to be in Melee; his addition came only when the clones were being added.

 

[FlareHabanero]

As far as Ganondorf's moveset goes, there's no excuse for leaving it the same this time after revamping Bowser, whose need for a revamp was comparatively lower.

BUT THINK OF MUH FAMILIARITY BKUPA!

THINK OF THE MUH FAMILIARITY!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Chrom is a fairly recently-introduced Lord from a fairly recently-introduced game, while Roy wasn't even introduced until after Melee (and thus even more recent than Chrom would be).

The relevance?

In terms of popularity, Chrom is incredibly popular star within his own constellation and pretty well-requested as a Super Smash Brothers character, while Roy is already immensely popular in both this universe and his own (popularity boosted through an appearance in Super Smash Brothers, which I will address momentarily). In terms of uniqueness, Chrom is somewhat crippled by his comparative similarities to Marth, which may-or-may-not affect his moveset, while Roy was the straightforward clone of Marth (hence we are dealing with contrasting a hypothetical position versus an actual confirmation of a previous one).

It's fair to assume both will end up being clones of Marth because they fit the criteria of clone characters. However while Chrom has basically no uniqueness himself other than a lance which arguably wouldn't even be part of his move set, Roy can not only fire elemental versions of Marth's attacks, but even fire moves unrelated to Marth. You're assuming that because Roy was a clone in Melee (a game where almost everyone was a clone) that he would be just as much a clone now and wouldn't have tweaks like Falco & Ganondorf. It's fair to assume both will be clones, but not to assume Chrom wouldn't be a clone because he wasn't before or that Roy will be just as much a clone as he was before. I'm talking about their potential NOW.

Now, of course, when we compare the two characters, I will concede Roy has distinctively-unique advantages over Chrom in certain categories, yet almost all of them have to do with Roy actually participating in a Super Smash Brothers title.

Why does it matter what games made him more popular. If he's more popular then that's that. There's not much else to it. I mean it's not like he had less significance to the series than Chrom does.

You people seem to believe that what games made Roy iconic and popular don't seem to be very fair to count simply because they aren't Fire Emblem. You go around saying "Yeah, but..." when in reality it doesn't matter. Even if it DID matter he'd STILL be just as significant as Chrom.

Is Chrom less popular?

I will grant you that, but that is because Roy actually had an appearance with

Super Smash Brothers, and thus more overall exposure to various fan-bases.

Why the "but,"? Again, are you implying this shouldn't' count?

Is Chrom less significant? Perhaps, but then again, without

Super Smash Brothers, Roy would be as iconic as Leaf and Sigurd to non-Fire Emblem fans - not at all.

OBJECTION! Without help from Super Smash Brothers Lyn became one of the most popular lords as well as the most requested one for Brawl. You have no basis to say that Roy wouldn't without the help of Super Smash Brothers.

A. If Roy's moveset can be programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth, then why can't Chrom's?

Chrom has nothing Sword related TO make himself unique form Marth. What can Chrom do with his sword that Marth can't?

B. If Roy's moveset cannot be (for whatever reason) programmed in a more distinct manner from Marth, then what purpose should Roy provide, other than popular fan-service?

First of all, I don't see what universe would exist where that is the situation. Secondly, who cares if it was the same as Melee, Roy is still the more popular, requested, and recognized Fire Emblem lord.

All Roy has going for him in terms of uniqueness is his physical features being far-more aesthetically pleasing to the eye

In case you didn't play Melee, Roy's fire DOES have different non aesthetic affects. He created an explosion with his Neutral Special, if you perform his Side Special (I believe by holding down the third time) you get caught in the fire's grasp as well as in his upward special.

so while it is essential to consider outward appearance as a deciding factor, it is not the deciding factor of a character's overall uniqueness. What type of game-play they can bring to the balance of the roster's fighters is another crucial aspect of uniqueness, one that concerns both Chrom and Roy in a questionable manner.

Well, Roy can shoot blades of fire with his sword. Chrom can simply weild in different directions, but then again so can Roy.

Awakening DLC is incredibly insignificant to a Fire Emblem characters' chances

I don't believe I ever said it was very significant. I simply used it to point out that Roy has in fact appeared recently in a video game and does in fact have more appearances, regardless of how significant they may be.

What I believe RoysOurBoy was trying to convey was whether or not Masahiro Sakurai and Intelligent Systems is done with the Roy character in terms of his utility and functionality to both Super Smash Brothers and Fire Emblem. If so, I disagree wholeheartedly.

I don't think so. I believe that Intelligent Systems will give the Fire Emblem fans the lord that is most requested and popular as they supposedly did with Ike. Even if IS suggested Chrom, Sakurai very well might not agree due to Chrom simply having no uniqueness outside of a lance. Even as a character he is similar to Marth in many ways it's almost like a Pichu situation imo. Hell, the reason Sakurai chose Roy in the first place was his uniqueness over Leif. If Leif wasn't considered unique enough, it's hard to imagine Chrom would be.

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) RoyOurBoy is worried about Intelligent Systems requesting Sakurai to implement Chrom for the sake of advertisement of Awakening

Which is a fair assumption, but not the one I would make. And even if that was the case, we have to take into consideration the high possibility of that Roy remake.

and perhaps the SMT X FE crossover

Which Roy is also in.

 

[Zhadgon]

I wish Intelligent Systems propose to Sakurai that an Advance Wars character could bring a unique style and moveset to the game and the whole universe from that series to Smash, I think the franchise has been forgotten to long in Smash (I like the assist trophy but I think a playable character would be great).
.n_n.

 

[Hotfeet444]

So, the two things I listed, another version of one of the two things I listed, the megaton punch I brought up in a previous post (yes, it causes shockwaves, but those are a result of the megaton fist), "sealing magic" (why does this count but not Zelda's restraint magic?), and a "wave of darkness" that nullified Navi (not Link's Triforce) that was more or less an exertion of battle aura.

I'd say outside from the fact he doesn't shoot the electric balls, Ganondorf's Melee moveset is a rather fitting set that incorporates the main aspects of that while serving it's purpose of copying C. Falcon's moveset.

So I will reiterate; Ganondorf's moves at the time were not that drastic of a deviation of his character. But it's outdated now.

Fine fine. If only Brawl had fixed that problem...not turn what was actually somewhat decent play-wise (Well, he was a good character) into a wretched abomination that has never moved out of bottom tier.