Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[SuperBrawler]

I would rather Ganondorf just using physical magic. Why are we having this discussion?!!?? I mean I don't really see Ganondorf would use a sword or trident or whatever, and I don't even think Sakurai would even do that.

 

[Knight Dude]

I feel if Sakurai wanted to give Ganondorf a weapon, he could very well give him a trident. I mean, even if it was not used by the actual Gerudo Ganondorf, it was used by Ganon, who is Ganondorf. Ganondorf is Ganon, and vice-versa. So it'd make sense to give Ganondorf the trident. I mean, we have Zelda using Link's OoT magic, which doesn't make canonical sense. Ganondorf having a trident would work. (As long as he's different from Falcon...)

Yeah, but didn't Ganondorf use some kind of spear/trident weapon in OoT? Like in the Forest Temple or something like that? Not that it really matters. Both Ganon and Ganondorf are pretty much the same dude, just different versions. One's a demonic boar and the other is a buff warlock.

 

[SchAlternate]

I would rather Ganondorf just using physical magic. Why are we having this discussion?!!?? I mean I don't really see Ganondorf would use a sword or trident or whatever, and I don't even think Sakurai would even do that.

As much as I like Trident Ganondorf, Warlock Ganondorf would work as well. Just as long as it's no longer Captain Ganon.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

OoT Ganondorf used magic... it was Ganon who used brutish force. And, really, tridents can be really heavy too, y'know.

And brutish strength several times in this boss fight. I swear to god it's like not a single person on Smash Boards ever beat Ocarina of Time. And he uses magic in Melee too by the way.

I don't know why you're still going on about the trident. It's been made pretty clear Ganon will be playable if we get the trident, not Ganondorf.

Then I come in to point out the noticeable loophole that Ganon and Ganondorf are the same thing and replacing Ganondorf with the exact same person make no sense.

Ganon and Ganondorf are the same thing? A muscular wizard and a fat pig are the same thing??? They may be the same person, but they are not the same form.

Replacing Young Link with Toon Link makes no sense then I guess. I guess it doesn't make sense to replace Dr. Mario with Paper Mario either. Why does it not make sense to replace one form with another just because they are the same person? If Ganondorf is going to use all of his Ganon powers, why does it not make sense to replace him with Ganon if he only uses it in that form? It defeats the whole purpose of Ganon being in his human form that he doesn't even use. Do you realize how illogical your statement is? Samus & ZSS are the same person. Does it make sense for them to have the weapons? Squirtle and Blastoise are the same person. Does it make sense for Squirtle to have Water Guns coming out of his shell?

It's not like the game has a swordless Ganondorf programmed in.

What game in Zelda/Smash existence doesn't have a swordless Ganondorf programmed into it at all?

 

[Curious Villager]

I would have liked to see Ganon playable with the Trident and all. Ah well Ganondorf with a Trident could be the next best thing I guess... :/

 

[TumblrFamous]

I would rather Ganondorf just using physical magic. Why are we having this discussion?!!?? I mean I don't really see Ganondorf would use a sword or trident or whatever, and I don't even think Sakurai would even do that.

You never know. Ganondorf was slightly decloned in Brawl, but nothing too big. I'm fine with clones, it's just that Ganondorf makes no sense as a clone. He's perfectly viable of having his own moveset, he's had games consisting of punches, kicks, magic, and a weapon. Having Ganondorf as a full-on clone, with just some dark punches and kicks, makes no sense. (I like the Volcano Kick, though. Love the Volcano Kick.)

 

[Arcanir]

And brutish strength several times in this boss fight. I swear to god it's like not a single person on Smash Boards ever beat Ocarina of Time. And he uses magic in Melee too by the way.

I don't know why you're still going on about the trident. It's been made pretty clear Ganon will be playable if we get the trident, not Ganondorf.

Oh look, he punches the floor, he must have a future as a medieval wrestler...

That is one attack, one attack that he uses that could be considered "brute strength," the rest of the time he's much more magic based.

Ganon and Ganondorf are the same thing? A muscular wizard and a fat pig are the same thing??? They may be the same person, but they are not the same form.

They're the same being, just different forms of the each other is what they mean.

 

[SuperBrawler]

You never know. Ganondorf was slightly decloned in Brawl, but nothing too big. I'm fine with clones, it's just that Ganondorf makes no sense as a clone. He's perfectly viable of having his own moveset, he's had games consisting of punches, kicks, magic, and a weapon. Having Ganondorf as a full-on clone, with just some dark punches and kicks, makes no sense. (I like the Volcano Kick, though. Love the Volcano Kick.)

I meant I want him to be de-cloned, but still use physical magic and not swords or weapons.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

What game in Zelda/Smash existence doesn't have a swordless Ganondorf programmed into it at all?

Wind Waker, Twilight Princess?

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[TumblrFamous]

And brutish strength several times in this boss fight. I swear to god it's like not a single person on Smash Boards ever beat Ocarina of Time. And he uses magic in Melee too by the way.

Well, sure he does have some magic punches and kicks, consisting of electrical and dark magic, but that's not really the magic people think of when they think of Ganondorf. They think of the sorcery Ganondorf has done, with his powerful electrical shockwaves, and his infamous Dead Man's Volley, his floating in the air. After OoT, there wasn't that much magic left for Ganondorf, but I still believe, to make Ganondorf the best he can be, we need to give him some actual magic (not just magical effects on his attacks) and some sort of weapon, be it a sword or a trident.

I meant I want him to be de-cloned, but still use physical magic and not swords or weapons.

Oh, my mistake then. As long as he's decloned, I'd be happy with Ganondorf. Sure I want him to have a sword/trident, but as long as he's not Captain Ganon again, I'll be content.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think the Ganondorf move set debate has to be one of the dumbest. First of all Sakurai barely shows much care for keeping stuff canon and the changes people suggest are either something that makes even less strength than using his current move set (The Trident) or something that makes him just as generic as before (Magic projectiles, normal ass sword). Does it even matter if Ganondorf's move set is based off something he doesn't do AS MUCH as the equally generic alternative (which might result in him being just as much a clone anyway.)? Why does it matter if it's something he actually does and both he and the game benefits from it. Is this really a major issue compared to other things in smash? And what's hypocritical is that people suggest the Ganondorf form use something it NEVER used (which are his Ganon powers) instead of something he only rarely used. And then they make the excuse (oh, he's the same person). Well, he's not remotely the same ****ing form. It's like making Zero Suit Samus a clone of Samus.

 

[SchAlternate]

And brutish strength several times in this boss fight. I swear to god it's like not a single person on Smash Boards ever beat Ocarina of Time. And he uses magic in Melee too by the way.

I don't know why you're still going on about the trident. It's been made pretty clear Ganon will be playable if we get the trident, not Ganondorf.

I haven't seen him using brutish force in that fight (and I HAVE beaten it, mind you). If you're referring to that move where he punches the ground, well, that looks like magic to me, to be honest; call me blind or whatever, but it looks like his hands glow when using it. And really, who EVER said that strength refers exclusively to brute force, rather than magic power or weaponry skills?

Also, since when it was absolutely decided that Ganon is the only one allowed to have a trident out of the two?

 

[SuperBrawler]

Again, Ganondorf should have magic, like projectiles and magic punches and stuff. The same form thing is dumb. Mario and Paper Mario are the same form, so Mario should turn 2-D and pull out Paper Mario's friends.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I think the Ganondorf move set debate has to be one of the dumbest. First of all Sakurai barely shows much care for keeping stuff canon and the changes people suggest are either something that makes even less strength than using his current move set (The Trident) or something that makes him just as generic as before (Magic projectiles, normal *** sword). Does it even matter if Ganondorf's move set is based off something he doesn't do AS MUCH as the equally generic alternative (which might result in him being just as much a clone anyway.)? Why does it matter if it's something he actually does and both he and the game benefits from it. Is this really a major issue compared to other things in smash? And what's hypocritical is that people suggest the Ganondorf form use something it NEVER used (which are his Ganon powers) instead of something he only rarely used. And then they make the excuse (oh, he's the same person). Well, he's not remotely the same ****ing form. It's like making Zero Suit Samus a clone of Samus.

The reason people argue for a moveset change for Ganondorf is because it is a disgrace. He is not being true to the character. For some characters in the game, Sakurai had to more or less make up a moveset. The reason people get all pissed when Ganondorf is a clone is because he shouldn't be. Sakurai has plenty to work with, he can be completely different from Captain Falcon if he wanted to.

And people suggesting magic, strength, and a sword is generic? Have we ever had a character with a combination of all types of powers, be it magical, physical, and weaponry-specializing?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I haven't seen him using brutish force in that fight (and I HAVE beaten it, mind you). If you're referring to that move where he punches the ground, well, that looks like magic to me, to be honest; call me blind or whatever, but it looks like his hands glow when using it. And really, who EVER said that strength refers exclusively to brute force, rather than magic power or weaponry skills?

Punching the ground with your fist looks like magic....................................really? Did you notice that when Ganondorf punches people in Smash it generates shadows. Guess that's all the magic we need.

He is not being true to the character.

How is that NOT being true to his character. Ganondorf is a strong brutish wizard. In Smash he uses his brute strength and magic. Sounds pretty damn accurate to me.

Also, since when it was absolutely decided that Ganon is the only one allowed to have a trident out of the two?

When was it absolutely decide Ganondorf's move set had to be based off the majority of what he does? When was it decided he can't be cloned?

Wind Waker, Twilight Princess?

Ganondorf is seen several times in those games without his sword. Obviously there is a swordless version of him programmed into the game.

Well, sure he does have some magic punches and kicks, consisting of electrical and dark magic, but that's not really the magic people think of when they think of Ganondorf.

Well, sure he does have some magic punches and kicks, consisting of electrical and dark magic, but that's not really the magic people think of when they think of Ganondorf. They think of the sorcery Ganondorf has done, with his powerful electrical shockwaves, and his infamous Dead Man's Volley, his floating in the air.

Jesus! It's just never enough with you guys. Talk about nitpicking. I don't see you complaining that the PSI powers aren't how they were in the game. Or that Villager's stuff doesn't work the same. Where are the complaints that FLUDD doesn't do damage or that Mario's Fire Ball isn't fast enough? Where are the complaints that Mewtwo doesn't float like in the movie? What a disgrace to their character. Isn't Ganondorf's upward special in Brawl pretty much him floating? There you go right there.

I don't think I want to debate with Ganondorf de-cloners. It doesn't matter if what they do makes sense or not. Just whatever declones him and gives them what they want. There is no point in trying to argue it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think popular newcomers being high priority, Palutena should be moved to the main roster.
Perhaps make Snake DLC instead.

There is no way in hell i'm going to make Snake the DLC character. There shouldn't be cuts in the game as far as i'm concerned in the first place.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm not surprised Saturn is still going on about this...


Ganondorf uses physical attacks in three Zelda games, and uses it rarely in them. In Ocarina of Time he punches the floor, that's it. Even then, the effects heavily indicate it is magic based. He uses magic in all his other attacks. In Wind Waker he knocks Link and Zelda aside by smacking them with the back of his hand, indeed something memorable, but it does not change the fact that he is a magic user, and the smack it isn't a true attack used in the fight with him. In Twilight Princess he has a kick attack.

Let's not forget Melee came before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Ganondorf wasn't known for being a physically strong brute that punches and kicks people with darkness coming from his hands, nor is he now. He's known for being an intimidating, highly determined, power hungry warlock. That is, mostly referring to his overall character. His powers are well known to be varying forms of magic and great skill with a blade.
The fact that he just uses a bunch of physical attacks with special effects doesn't make up for anything. The dark effects used in some attacks don't make up for it, mostly being present for aesthetic purposes. It doesn't stay true to his character just because some of his physical attacks yield dark effects like the dark effects he used like, one time in Ocarina of Time. And the fact at how he's a clone of Captain Falcon only makes things worse. It's a diservice to fans and does not stay true to Ganondorf's character. Sure, it's good that his moveset has changed a bit and all, but it isn't enough. His Flame Choke attack seems like something he would do, his Neutral-F as well, but what about the rest of his moveset?

And where has it been said that only Ganon can use the Trident? So what? At least Ganondorf's beast form is commonly recurring trait Ganondorf has, unlike Deku Link. Along with that, what makes the comparison of Ganon/Ganondorf and Link/Deku Link a ridiculous one is that the flying flowers are clearly a power that is excluse to Deku Link form, not a weapon. At least it's a memorable weapon that a recurring form of Ganondorf has used. In a similar regard, Mario has normally only be able to use Fireballs under the effects of a Fire Flower, but in Smash he can use the Fireballs normally, as he can in many Mario spin-offs. What is so bad about this form of Ganondorf using the Trident?

 

[?????????????]

Ganondorf's moveset is based on Captain Falcon.

This would be like if they introduced Palutena as a newcomer, and then gave her Zelda's moveset.

Is it justifiable? Sure. They have a similar build. But most people probably won't be happy about it.

Don't people talk about how Palutena could have a great moveset with her staff and powers? But instead of using her staff and her own powers, she just uses Zelda's abilities.

They aren't even from the same series. It's not like Luigi copying Mario or Falco copying Fox. A Zelda character is copying an F-Zero character.

Ganondorf, a character that has shown his own host of powers and abilities, is copying the made-up attacks of a racer. Hooray.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm not surprised Saturn is still going on about this...

I'm more surprised you are going on about this. Considering everything in your following statement has been proven an invalid reason that Ganondorf needs to be changed and I've basically already explained why it makes perfect sense for him to stay the way he is in my previous statement. So why are you still going on about this?

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

I know I've said this many times before, but I wish Sakurai would just make a second Ganondorf who uses a sword, and keep OoT Captain Ganon somewhat the same, with luigified moves. (like having the option to release the energy from Warlock Punch early as a projectile)

Everyone wins, and people would hopefully shut up about Ganondorf.

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[TumblrFamous]

snip

 

[SuperBrawler]

I can't revive the Team Rocket thread. Every time I post it doesn't show up.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

They aren't even from the same series. It's not like Luigi copying Mario or Falco copying Fox. A Zelda character is copying an F-Zero character.

You realize the move set originated form Smash Brothers and not F-Zero right?

 

[?????????????]

You realize the move set originated form Smash Brothers and not F-Zero right?

I figured the part where I said "copying the made-up attacks" made that obvious.

 

[Arcanir]

You realize the move set originated form Smash Brothers and not F-Zero right?

Not the point, it's taking a moveset from an unrelated character and giving it to a character where's it largely unfitting.

 

[3Bismyname]

I'm more surprised you are going on about this. Considering everything in your following statement has been proven an invalid reason that Ganondorf needs to be changed and I've basically already explained why it makes perfect sense for him to stay the way he is in my previous statement. So why are you still going on about this?

you've never really proven anything is invalid. moreso u just don't agree with them and thereby refer to them as invalid. you want Ganandorf to stay virtually the same. fine. that's your preference. others, most actually, would rather his abilities be more clearly representative of what he does within the games. neither opinion is wrong.

 

[TumblrFamous]

You realize the move set originated form Smash Brothers and not F-Zero right?

That's not the point, though. They aren't from the same series. If Sakurai made up a moveset for Fox, which he basically did but to an even higher extent, and gave it to Falco in the next game, that would make sense.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I figured the part where I said "copying the made-up attacks" made that obvious.

And yet you act like it doesn't make sense for him to have a move set shared with character from another franchise when the move set isn't even from that franchise.

That's not the point, though. They aren't from the same series. If Sakurai made up a moveset for Fox, which he basically did but to an even higher extent, and gave it to Falco in the next game, that would make sense.

Explain. In Brawl it makes sens for Ganondorf to have this move set because him and Smash Falcon do the same things. Just like Mario & Luigi do the same things. Would it make sense for Peach to be a clone of Bowser if they are from the same series? They don't do the same things.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm more surprised you are going on about this. Considering everything in your following statement has been proven an invalid reason that Ganondorf needs to be changed and I've basically already explained why it makes perfect sense for him to stay the way he is in my previous statement. So why are you still going on about this?

I think Ganondorfs current moveset is alright by how you explain it. I just think it could be better.

I would personally prefer to see Wind Waker Ganondorf get in this time, and they make him fast, strong, but have terrible recovery. Or something to that extent. They could even keep his current specials, like the flame choke. But having the dual swords would give him something new to work with.

All in all, I think if he keeps the moveset he has, fine. Idgaf. Just make him Melee fast, and make him usable.

 

[?????????????]

And yet you act like it doesn't make sense for him to have a move set shared with character from another franchise when the move set inst' even from that franchise

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Ganondorf isn't a character that needs a moveset to be made up for him. He has enough of his own abilities.

 

[Knight Dude]

You realize the move set originated form Smash Brothers and not F-Zero right?

Hence why he said made up most set later in his post.

Edit: Somebody else pointed this out.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Ganondorf isn't a character that needs a moveset to be made up for him. He has enough of his own abilities.

The abilities he has will probably be just as generic as the ones he has in Smash. Instead of him being a clone of one character it would be like him being a clone of several characters. Is that really a better alternative?

 

[TumblrFamous]

Explain. In Brawl it makes sens for Ganondorf to have this move set because him and Smash Falcon do the same things. Just like Mario & Luigi do the same things. Would it make sense for Peach to be a clone of Bowser if they are from the same series? They don't do the same things.

And yet he was able to make a moveset for Peach and Bowser, so that's really not the point.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon do NOT do the same thing. They only do similar things IN SMASH. One is a warlock, the other is a racer.

The abilities he has will probably be just as generic as the ones he has in Smash. Instead of him being a clone of one character it would be like him being a clone of several characters. Is that really a better alternative?

So Ike, Marth, Meta Knight, and Link are clones of each other then? Please elaborate. Frankly, it'd be better to have a similar concept (in this case, a sword) than a similar everything.

 

[?????????????]

The abilities he has will probably be just as generic as the ones he has in Smash. Instead of him being a clone of one character it would be like him being a clone of several characters.

...Which would be a new character.

I'm okay with Ganondorf retaining the moveset he has in the same way I'm okay with Ridley not being a playable character.

It hasn't changed before, so why the hell would it now?

Is that really a better alternative?

Um...yes. Very yes. If Ganondorf has to INEVITABLY BE A CLONE, as you're saying, I'd rather have him be a clone and do the things he actually does in Zelda games than be a clone who copies Captain Falcon.

 

[SchAlternate]

The abilities he has will probably be just as generic as the ones he has in Smash. Instead of him being a clone of one character it would be like him being a clone of several characters. Is that really a better alternative?

Because using punches and kicks totally hasn't been used by others.

So what if several characters share some moves. Nearly everyone of the original 12 have sex kicks for nairs. Samus and Falcon have similar u-tilts. Dedede spins his hammer upwards in his u-tilt just like the Ice Climbers. Just because a character happens to have a similar move like someone else doesn't meant they are clones.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon do NOT do the same thing. They only do similar things IN SMASH. One is a warlock, the other is a racer.

Right! Ganondorf doesn't punch, kick, and grab post Melee. I also don't recall Captain Falcon doing anything racer related in Melee.

...Which would be a new character.

Just as new as Brawl Ganondorf.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Canon Ganondorf and Smash Falcon do not do even remotely similar things....

 

[TumblrFamous]

Um...yes. Very yes. If Ganondorf has to INEVITABLY BE A CLONE, as you're saying, I'd rather have him be a clone and do the things he actually does in Zelda games than be a clone who copies Captain Falcon.

 

[?????????????]

Just as new as Brawl Ganondorf.

Brawl Ganondorf had a lot of improvements in that department. Maybe they can keep going further now...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Just because a character happens to have a similar move like someone else doesn't meant they are clones.

Then Ganondorf is fine how he is.

I'd rather have him be a clone and do the things he actually does in Zelda games than be a clone who copies Captain Falcon.

Just stop already. If you're honestly trying to say that what Ganondorf does in Brawl isn't in Zelda then go play ****ing Zelda.

This doesn't even need to be a debate. Both move sets make sense, it's just a matter if which one is the better alternative and I say it's the one in Brawl. It's fine how it is and both he and the game benefit from it.