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Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

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BKupa666

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I see people are still being incredibly dense and sticking the labels of 'casual character' and 'hardcore character' on past newcomers.



Shock characters are and will continue to be a thing, regardless of users bending over backward to justify their inclusion (and/or lick Sakurai's...sak) as perfectly normal after their reveal. Their inclusion hinges entirely on Sakurai looking back into Nintendo's history to dig up long-forgotten characters who he believes could be unique characters, then reviving them through Smash. What's more, rather than restricting himself to popular characters, Sakurai selects one or two shock characters he finds especially unique because the sheer shock they produce attracts more attention to them than they would otherwise receive, thus putting their uniqueness under closer scrutiny and allowing (some) individuals to enjoy their inclusion even more. The fact that we've gotten a token one or two surprising characters per game indicates that 'shock character' is a niche Sakurai looks to fill, not a coincidental one.
 

TumblrFamous

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For R.O.B.
1. Lack of personality. He feels more like a "tool" that you "use" than a "character" you "roleplay" as.
2. Lack of personal moveset. R.O.B.'s moves are largely an improvision "cause he's a robot," and not movesets that represent who he was supposed to be as a character. Sakurai talks about why Samus is floaty, based on her physics in her games. 10+ of Mario's attacks are taken directly, same motion and everything, from other games. Same with Wii Fit Trainer (though they made the small leap into "attack when you stretch" as opposed to just "stretch." The motion is still down.) Same with Villager to a large extent, though instead of just chopping down trees, he chops down trees "on opponents." Small extrapolation.
3. Lack of appeal. It seems the folks who like R.O.B. are the ones who are serious and passionate enough to care about whether or not it saved video gaming. The majority of the audience more just wants to play as their favorite Nintendo character, as advertised on the game's boxes/etc. Outside of people who like robots, casual support for R.O.B. is very low.
4. Very harsh fan reception (in the west for sure, idk about Japan) on his unveil. It was too late to take him out then, but I feel they're going to just go ahead and avoid this negative reception to begin with, even if he is a veteran. Of course people who buy the game are eventually going to learn to tolerate, maybe even appreciate, R.O.B., but those aren't the people we want to convince to buy the game: they bought it, and played it for a long while, anyways. It's the folks who saw R.O.B. and were very hesitant to buy/play the game, or felt like Nintendo was no longer taking it seriously by including such a non-icon. It's the folks who had a bad first impression of the game that potentially wasn't able to get shaken off during the early stages of playing the game.
5. There are just plain better-selling characters to put in. Characters that are more wanted, more favored, and more looked forward to. Again, it's only the select few who come on SWF or etc. and debate Nintendo history that appreciate what he has done for Nintendo.
5.5. Corporations making decisions with a board of directors tend to focus on their bottom line. Many of the folks who get into these positions get there through being really pragmatic non-idealists who could turn a profit very effectively. These aren't the people who are going to say, "let's keep R.O.B. because he's important to Nintendo," or even the folks who'd say "Let's keep Lucas so we don't hurt our old buddy PAL's feelings." These boards need to come to a vote, and in a capitalist system, in a corporation with a bottom line of "more revenue," personal ideals and subjective values are going to be thrown away a lot quicker than potential increases in revenue.
6. Game & Watch is everything he is not. Game & watch has personal moves, became a fan favorite, had a more positive shock value, and actually was a video game character, which has previously been said to truly matter.
7. R.O.B.'s extremely inorganic feel heavily hurts his ability to "feel right" in a roster filled with living things. Sucks for R.O.B., but discrimination is a real thing.
1. He shows more personality than over half of the cast. Most of the fighters just feel like bland heroes that fill that "bland hero niche". R.O.B. feels like a goofy robot in his moveset. And I'm sorry ROB doesn't fill your obsession over "niches", but he does for most, if any of us even care about a "niche".
2. Someone, I don't remember who, found connections between the toy and ROB in Smash. You could turn the hand, if I remember, which is his Side B. His Neutral B, the laser, references him being "charged", where a fully charged ROB toy would emit a flashing red dot on its head.
3. CASUAL SUPPORT IS NOT THE ULTIMATE FACTOR. SAKURAI SAID PLEASING THE COMPETITIVE FIGHTERS THE MOST, COMPLICATIONS HAPPEN. HE HAS NEVER SAID THAT HE WILL COMPLETELY TIP THE SCALES AND FOCUS ON ONE GROUP.
4. The only reason he was harshly received was because he was the last slot, and people were pissed their precious Ridley or Geno or Megaman or Krystal did not get in. They viewed him as an obstacle that got in the way of their favorite character. That's why people didn't like him. If the WFT was the last revealed, she would be in the same position as ROB: while filling a different "niche", she was still a surprise WTF character that people did not want, therefore taking, say, K. Rool's or Ridley's slot.
5. He saved Nintendo in the West. Half of the cast wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for him. He fills Nintendo's History better than most of the characters on these rosters.
5.5. Please get a source in how this is the "cutting" process. No, they will not keep ROB because he saved Nintendo. They will most likely keep him because he got in fairly, on his own merits, is a unique character, and deserves to be on there more than most of this cast.
6. ROB became a fan favorite as well, even if he does have some haters, though Game and Watch does as well. Game and Watch wasn't as hated mainly because there was never that much speculation going on back then. By Brawl, speculation was running rampant, and the rest that followed can be found in #4.
7. Obviously, he felt real enough for Sakurai to put him on there in the first place. He feels better than the likes of Snake in Brawl, and people think he's returning. ROB felt right enough for Sakurai at that time, he will most likely feel right again.
 

KingofPhantoms

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Personality? Seriously? If personality mattered we wouldn't have Mr. G&W. Personality can help make some characters more popular choices among some Smash fans, but personality does not get in the way of moveset. If a character was full of personality that appealed to fans but didn't have potential, said character most likely wouldn't be getting in. On a partial contrary ROB had little potential and didn't really have a personality, but he got in anyways with a fine moveset, and could use some abilities unrelated to ROB's games. It's an improvision, but at least at some point, had enough importance and potential to warrant him a slot.

I can't argue every point here, but I'll try what I can.
 

Arcadenik

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I am tired of people using personality as a criteria... personality is not one of Sakurai's criteria. :facepalm:
 

BKupa666

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If personality were a criteria, it would rule out virtually every potential non-villain newcomer.

...now that I think about it, let's start a petition to make personality a criteria. Sakurai is sure to listen, like he did to the Geno petition, and the Skull Kid one, and the Reggie one, and DivineDeity's Ridley one, right? Right??
 

TumblrFamous

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If personality were a criteria, it would rule out virtually every potential non-villain newcomer.

...now that I think about it, let's start a petition to make personality a criteria. Sakurai is sure to listen, right? Right??
And characters like Mario, Link, and Marth. They're just heroes.

Not going to lie, when I pick a character, I choose one who is viable and who has personality. Its why I enjoy those characters. I like Toon Link, Luigi, Peach, King Dedede, and Wario. Their personalities are not something sakurai looks at, but its something I like in characters.
 

Morbi

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I am tired of people using personality as a criteria... personality is not one of Sakurai's criteria. :facepalm:
Sometimes personality has a correlation to move-set potential, it has a direct influence in how the characters are portrayed. It is a contributing factor that people overlook. It will always be an innate feature of the character that might make Sakurai pass up a great potential candidate or select a representative that isn't completely ideal.
 

FlareHabanero

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I'd presume when people mention personality, I think it's more from the prospective of design over character. As in, the style a character brings onto the table to help establish diversity. Like how Wario has a quirky and unorthodox playstyle while Marth is graceful.
 

Arcadenik

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Wait... did EddyBearr just say R.O.B. being inorganic made it not fit in Brawl since all the other characters are living beings? Since when was Mr. Game & Watch organic? He is made of liquid crystal and nothing else.
 

KingofPhantoms

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In some cases personality can affect a character's potential, take Wario for example. His lack of personal hygiene and gross sense of humor is pretty much what got him his D-special, one of his taunts and possibly his N-special.

But, as I said, only in some cases. It is not a major factor, and it rarely ever applies to any choice.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Personality matters in a sense that "the character makes people want to play the game."

Thing is... R.O.B. already passed that. So why are we debating this?
 

TumblrFamous

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Sometimes personality has a correlation to move-set potential, it has a direct influence in how the characters are portrayed. It is a contributing factor that people overlook. It will always be an innate feature of the character that might make Sakurai pass up a great potential candidate or select a representative that isn't completely ideal.
It is only a criteria when deciding a moveset, IMO. Like how Luigi's moveset portrays him as some cowardly idiot, Toon Link is a sporadic, almost confused kid, and Dedede is stupid.

I think it is probably a criteria, but only a very small one. Having "no personality" will not automatically deconfirm a character.
 

Arcadenik

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Duck Hunt Dog is full of personality... you know he would be laughing at your pain while he is kicking butt. :troll:
 

SchAlternate

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It is only a criteria when deciding a moveset, IMO. Like how Luigi's moveset portrays him as some cowardly idiot, Toon Link is a sporadic, almost confused kid, and Dedede is stupid.

I think it is probably a criteria, but only a very small one. Having "no personality" will not automatically deconfirm a character.
I'd say Dedede is more clumsy than stupid, but I see your point.
 

Morbi

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It is only a criteria when deciding a moveset, IMO. Like how Luigi's moveset portrays him as some cowardly idiot, Toon Link is a sporadic, almost confused kid, and Dedede is stupid.

I think it is probably a criteria, but only a very small one. Having "no personality" will not automatically deconfirm a character.
You just restated what I said.
 

KingofPhantoms

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Personality is what makes some people want to play the game, but yeah. DOES NOT apply to everyone. Ridley has hardly shown much of personality in the Metroid games, and personality is not what would get people to want to play the game. He is a fire breathing power house of an evil space dragon, does such a thing need to show much personality for people to want to play as him?
 

Silverjay323

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And characters like Mario, Link, and Marth. They're just heroes.

Not going to lie, when I pick a character, I choose one who is viable and who has personality. Its why I enjoy those characters. I like Toon Link, Luigi, Peach, King Dedede, and Wario. Their personalities are not something sakurai looks at, but its something I like in characters.
That's a rather basic way of thinking about it. The way I see it Mario, Link, and Marth aren't just heroes. They're silent, but more often than not, it gives the player a chance to characterize them by interacting with NPCs and using their imagination. That's why I get a little irritated when people say they're bland.
 

TumblrFamous

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That's a rather basic way of thinking about it. The way I see it Mario, Link, and Marth aren't just heroes. They're silent, but more often than not, it gives the player a chance to characterize them by interacting with NPCs and using their imagination. That's why I get a litle irritated when people say they're bland.
Well, I was just saying, based on Eddy's criteria, they would fit that "bland hero" biochemical. I don't think they're bland, I was just using it as an example to defend my argument.

EDIT: Niche. I meant niche. Biochemical?
 

Morbi

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I did it for emphasis. EMPHASIS!

Points if you understand that reference... but I was really just agreeing with you.
I just found it weird. I was the first person to say it, I got no "likes", 2 or 3 proceeded to say the exact same thing I said. They got "likes". I don't really care about likes. Which is why I give them out for free. However, when you say something and people say the exact same thing and get credit for saying it... it is slightly annoying.
 

TumblrFamous

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I just found it weird. I was the first person to say it, I got no "likes", 2 or 3 proceeded to say the exact same thing I said. They got "likes". I don't really care about likes. Which is why I give them out for free. However, when you say something and people say the exact same thing and get credit for saying it... it is slightly annoying.
I didn't like it? I thought i did... in that case:

IT WAS MORBID, PEOPLE. LIKE THE STATUS. NOT MINE, BUT MORBID'S.

I hope that didn't come off as sarcastic... I was just agreeing with you. I'm sorry.
 

Morbi

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I didn't like it? I thought i did... in that case:

IT WAS MORBID, PEOPLE. LIKE THE STATUS. NOT MINE, BUT MORBID'S.

I hope that didn't come off as sarcastic... I was just agreeing with you. I'm sorry.
Haha, it isn't a problem. I just showed my sister the scenario and she said it would be similar if we were all in the same room. I would state my point, everyone would ignore it, after words 2 or 3 people would say the exact same thing (only more simple and with examples) and everyone else in the room would clap. That is just how it felt. I do not really care too much. I was just pointing out why I was annoyed. I definitely do not want people to like something that they don't like. That is my job!
 

TumblrFamous

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Haha, it isn't a problem. I just showed my sister the scenario and she said it would be similar if we were all in the same room. I would state my point, everyone would ignore it, after words 2 or 3 people would say the exact same thing (only more simple and with examples) and everyone else in the room would clap. That is just how it felt. I do not really care too much. I was just pointing out why I was annoyed. I definitely do not want people to like something that they don't like. That is my job!
Trust me, that happens to me, too. Usually when I tell a joke... :(
 

Silverjay323

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Well, I was just saying, based on Eddy's criteria, they would fit that "bland hero" biochemical. I don't think they're bland, I was just using it as an example to defend my argument.

EDIT: Niche. I meant niche. Biochemical?
Yeah I get that. Sometimes I just read through something and pick out the least relevant thing to complain about.
 

Gene

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I'd say Dedede is more clumsy than stupid, but I see your point.
He's some what of a greedy scumbag as well, which Imo makes him more enjoyable as a character. Plus he has a chain grab.
 

FinalStarmen

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Cult Appeasing Roster.
Casual/party/family appeasing roster.
Explanations at bottom.
Expecting flame.


There are several discernible flaws that prevent this hypothetical roster from even resembling anything close to a realistic prediction.

First and foremost - your preconceived notions about fan-bases. You have basically formulated this sort of black-and-white dichotomy between "hardcore competitive" and "casual" fan-bases, as if they are entirely diametrically-opposed to one another (like an insoluble combination between oil and water). Essentially, you summarily characterize the fan-bases as being entirely divided core-groups, in terms of wants and needs, without even comprehending an understanding that these so-called "competitive" and "casual" fan-base can very well easily overlap each other. Your unwarranted claims are also severely confounded when presented with these conflicts:

- What sort of criteria, which constitutes the basis of your claims, are you using to describe "casual" and "competitive" fan-bases?
- What exact sort of methodology are you using within developing your hypothesis? Asking random strangers what they specially think about certain potential characters?

You do not have to be a "casual" to support the idea of having a Mii, nor do you have to be "competitive" to support the idea of Ridley or King K. Rool. So, why do you have to construct these false dilemmas, why must you build these straw-men to knock down, in order to prove some baseless point in defining what the Super Smash Brothers series' fan-bases are?

Also take cautionary heed: If the fan-bases were truly as antithetically-antagonistic towards each other in their desires, as you imply, then surely the "casual" fan-base (as you define the term) would have never allowed Ness or Lucas entry into the games, but rather characters from "casual" games like "Waluigi". If, as you say, the "consumer base should dictate every aspect", then Sakurai will see to it that he not arbitrarily divide his fan-bases as you do, not take parts of the whole and divide them, but rather take the sum of the parts into a whole.


Onto the tour de force:


Snake stays: We don't need any more 3rd party, even if Namco is developing. Snake staying helps keep some "more serious" gamers interested in the game.

Snake is popular for a varietal array of reasons, and I don't believe many of them have to do with some sort of "seriousness" assumption of people playing as "Rated-M for Mature" characters. People will play as characters because they enjoy playing as that particular character for their distinct game-play traits and fighting styles.

Waluigi & Baby Bowser: Casual Party-Players love both Waluigi and Bowser Jr. To them, they think "Why are they both in Mario Kart, but not Smash Bros?" I'm sure there are some kids out there who go through random Waluigi phases, and I know that Bowser Jr. is a hardcore casual favorite, so both should be in. Toad is left out, as casuals might say: Toad can't fight!|

First of all, why are you, again, generalizing what particular consumers of a products want, especially when such consumers are not anywhere near as simplistically one-dimensional as you make them out to be? And from what inexplicable sources do you even collectively gather these quotes from?

Secondly, let me clarify this as crystal-clear as possible: if a potential character, like Toad, does not make it into the final product of the game, it is because Sakurai either did not find a feasible solution to a character to make them work, Sakurai's visionary roster doesn't include the character because he doesn't feel they add to anything, or that character could not be implemented as a result of time-constraints. Here, we are speaking about the former two examples, in that if Toad doesn't make it in, it's because for whatever reason or another, Sakurai doesn't see Toad as a workable character. Not because your poorly-described definition of "casual" fans say, "Toad can't fight!" You know who also technically couldn't fight in their own games? R.O.B.

Mii: Every little kid wants to be a part of their favorite game, and little kids play Smash. It means little to us more serious gamers, but Sakurai has explicitly said he isn't aiming to please us, even going as far as to call us "maniacs."

Think about this: what is the solitary purpose of the Mii? Why, of course, to be a personally-detailed customization of yourself. If the supportive fan-bases of the Mii are exuberantly calling for it's inclusion, then it is for several differentiated reasons, but perhaps the most important: to be able to play as oneself within a Super Smash Brothers game.

Also, talk about lacking contextual awareness. When Sakurai referred to the "hardcore competitive" scene as "maniacs", he was only referring to how over-zealously enthusiastic they are about their passionate hobbies. Not because they are lacking in sanity.

Tetra: Bolder guess & personal preference. I think she's the most likely Zelda Newcomer, and I think a Zelda Newcomer is more likely than, say, Shulk.

While I can finally find some agreement with your preferential roster choices, I cannot help but feel distractedly baffled as to your reasoning Shulk should even be compared to a Zelda character. Where does the comparison even warrant itself a logically reasonable explanation?

No Chrom: Conflicting niche with Marth and Ike. Ike fights for his friends. Quotes = casual love.

Of all the arguments I have heard against a character's inclusion, this is, above and beyond all, the worst argument I have ever had the misfortune of listening to. Quotes? You mean Chrom, or by extension Roy, Lucina, Robin, Lyn, and the like, are not allowed access towards inclusive entrance because... Ike says he "fights for his friends"? Because an already established character within the Super Smash Brothers series has quotes, we should just forsake all others? I can understand the first point you are suggesting (in that Chrom provides nothing else that is already provided for by Marth and Ike), but the second one... is incomprehensible. It is, in fact, ludicrous.

Anna: FE warrants a third rep, and Anna fills a niche that finishes off the "FE sword users." She's small/light/fast/flexible/etc.

As much as I would enthusiastically support the inclusion of the merchant, she is, by far-and-wide, out-prioritized by Chrom, Roy, and Robin, perhaps even Lucina.

Anna is also very-well capable of using a spear, as well.

Krystal: For the casual girls. They exist, there are many of them, and many of them love Krystal. Krystal not being playable was something many of htem hated.

Can you, at the very least, provide substantial evidence in regards to your claims? Because otherwise, what is presented without evidence can just be as easily dismissed without evidence.

Also, there was a reason Wolf was granted entry over Krystal in Super Smash Brothers Brawl - Wolf is far more crucially-important to his own series as the antagonistic rival, in a humiliating comparison to a controversial-to-her-own-series damsel-in-distress. Why would that change the second time around?

Isaac>Shulk: Popularity, potential, uniqueness, and semi-cult appeasement.

I can actually, for once, understand this particular suggestion. Yet, even then, Shulk shouldn't be disregarded as a potential choice just because of Isaac - they can co-exist just fine.

No Ness: Super bold, but I think one will get cut. Ness has veteran status, while Lucas is more recent/etc. Most casuals I've talked to think Lucas is cooler.

Garbage. Pure unadulterated, bottom-of-the-trash-can garbage. I feel sick.

Why should we cut loose the iconic mascot of their own respective series, just for the sake of keeping another character that has previously co-existed with the character in question? The bizarre equivalent would be cutting Marth in order to keep Ike, or cutting Wolf for Falco. It makes no sense whatsoever.

No R.O.B.: R.O.B. sucksssss. Nobody likes R.O.B.

Emotional argumentation. Generalizing assumptions. Logical fallacies. Cognitive biases, ranging from confirmation inclination to the false-consensus effect.

Already, you have practically guaranteed no reasonable spectator will ever listen, or even take seriously, to what you have to say in regards to R.O.B. because you have already established a personally-combative disposition against R.O.B. No attempts at arguing valid points or even presenting factual testimonial evidence. Just, "R.O.B. sucksssss. Nobody likes R.O.B." Considering the fact, not opinion but fact, that there are actually people who do prefer R.O.B. and would even go as far as to main him as a playable character and proudly display him as an avatar on their Smashboards profiles... this argument, no, I mean this generalized preconception is factually wrong, on several, if not all, levels of logic.

No Wolf: I think the Space Animal fans can take the hit. Krystal would probably be a better character in if we're trying to increase revenue and please customers. Star Fox shouldn't even have 3 reps at this point, but I feel it will retain all 3.

I have already exhaustively explained this in regard to my previous statements.

No Ridley: He's a boss. Casuals know him as a Brawl Boss.

Again, stop pretending you are extensively knowledgeable about these fan-bases, because you are only demonstrating a complete lack of understanding in regards to this, especially when given these ignorantly false examples. Look at what Ridley is - a purple flying space dragon. Already he is aesthetically pleasing. Now look at what Ridley does - flies around at high velocity, uses his sharp claws to grab enemies and drag them across walls, swings his elongated tail around, etc. Already he is feasibly a fighter. All that stands in Ridley's inclusion is Sakurai's criteria for playable character, and certainly not because "casuals" want him to maintain his current position as a boss.

Appeasing Ridley cult: "Boss Mode" has an option where the user with the Wii U Gamepad can play as the bosses, so you can play as Ridley.

Why not just have Ridley as a playable character in the first place? This also completely defeats the entire purpose of your previous statement.

Roster count is 46 + 4 transformation characters, so 50. If Mii is 3 characters for 3 sizes, then "52" characters.

I suppose the 45-50 range is within judicious limits.


Overall, this preferentially-favored roster of yours needs more astute fine-tuning in terms of its technicality, logicality, and cohesion, in order for it to become sensibly reasonable. I do desire you not to take this as an offensively-aggressive attack on all fronts of your belief systems, but rather a productive guide that may help better your roster predictions. I myself am not perfect in this regard, and neither are any of us for that matter, but in the very least we can work together as a closely-knit unit within our constructive criticisms of each other's roster predictions, and hopefully become more knowledgeable spectators as a result.
 
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