Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Arcadenik]

Or give him a trident.

Both makes him more unique and pleases everyone who wanted a spear/lance/whatever user.

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

not having Fox playable in Smash 64 would've been quite depressing. Sometimes improvision is necessary when a character is necessary.

Like Diskun.

It's not that different. It's something that's supposed to represent something else.

It does represent the Famicom.

I've expressed doubts of R.O.B. returning for this reason.
You're joking.

Apart from the word, what's so different? Lol. Yes, it's true a mascot can be far more capable than a logo, as per McDonald's and Ronald McDonald, but that's not so much the case with Diskun. Diskun's capabilities are extraordinarily basic.

Being a Mr. Famicom is about as basic as half the roster.

Again, it's like arguing that the N64 logo can use a master sword.

N64 LOGO IS NOT A NINTENDO CHARACTER!!! R u honestly this ignorant!?!? Next you'll be using a flat tire to compare to Palutena.

Or if you want characters, like arguing that a Deku Baba can use the master sword. There's no evidence of Diskun himself actually doing anything.

In case you've never played Super Smash Bros, that doesn't matter at all.

and your entire argument for him using "all the famicom stuff" is because he's related to something that can play games. Diskun didn't do this.

Not just that, he's the mascot for the system. He should be able to do stuff related to it and it's game. Who cares if he didn't do them. Almost half the characters didn't do stuff they originally did.

Nope, not a character. I've said before than Diskun has more potential than the n64 logo, but only due to being ever so slightly more dextruous.

Are you high?

Diskun is not the FDS. Diskun did not copy information. Diskun didn't do anything the FDS did

Disks copied Famicom Game's data. Diskun is a disk.

all that Diskun did was look cute as merchandise and walk around/other basis movements in a game.

Sounds good enough for me! And all Captain Falcon did was race, while all Wii Fit Trainer did was exercise.

In the same way, Tom Nook is not a Tanooki, so Tom Nook having Tanooki powers would be absurd. It has nothing to do with Tom Nook, apart from a connection of both being "raccoons."

True, but whats this got to do with Diskun?

Nothing Diskun has done is unique.

Nothing Captain Falcon or ROB did was unique. That's why characters are given things.

 

[Johnknight1]

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

inb4 Noah and EddyBearr go on more long rants.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

I actually like that propaganda.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

To be honest I'd like for Ganondorf to use his sword, but only in a small handful of attacks. I'd really like him to use more magic though, like his energy ball of course. He could also possibly use his trident. If he's gonna keep any of his specials though, I'd like for him to keep Flame Choke.

 

[EddyBearr]

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUyL5VUAfO0#t=8m58s

 

[Chandeelure]

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

 

[SchAlternate]

Come on guys. You know you want the trident! The trident is good!

 

[Johnknight1]

I actually like that propaganda.

 

[EddyBearr]

Like Diskun

Diskun is necessary? Diskun is of such massive popularity, relevance and success, like Star Fox was in 1999, that Diskun is necessary?

Being a Mr. Famicom is about as basic as half the roster.

Being a disk with arms and legs that can move and do very basic actions like pull levers is hardly as basic as a fire-breathing spiky-shelled turtle, or an iron-tailed electric mouse.

N64 LOGO IS NOT A NINTENDO CHARACTER!!! R u honestly this ignorant!?!? Next you'll be using a flat tire to compare to Palutena.

Being a character or not being a character has absolutely nothing to do with the criticism I was making. The criticism I was making is the absurd level of extrapolation of abilities based upon largely arbitrary relationships.

In case you've never played Super Smash Bros, that doesn't matter at all.

Oh, I've played Smash Bros, and by playing Smash Bros, it became overtly apparent that the devs tried to use moves that the characters were already known to use whenever possible. Trying to use moves that directly relate to the character? Who knew?

Not just that, he's the mascot for the system. He should be able to do stuff related to it and it's game. Who cares if he didn't do them. Almost half the characters didn't do stuff they originally did.

That sounds more like an apologizing ideal than an argument. Why should he be able to do it? Just because he's a mascot? I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection.

*by it, I mean the idea of copying all NES games. A more reasonable one would be to go inside a character's mouth, like a disk entering an FDS. I do agree he should have *something* to do with the FDR and NES, but not something so all-encompassing and of such a stretch as doing anything a NES game character could do.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but almost every character has at least 5-10 moves unique to them (or those very close to them) from their games. Sure, Yoshi was never known to have his uair, but he was known to ground pound, flutter kick, his unique double jump, eat enemies, throw eggs, and turn into an egg to roll around. What is Diskun known to do? absolutely nothing special.

Disks copied Famicom Game's data. Diskun is a disk.

But disks also were not able to use this game data without the Disk System. Again, you should have the Disk System as the playable character, because the information is merely stored in disks, and actually put to use by the FDS.

Sounds good enough for me! And all Captain Falcon did was race, while all Wii Fit Trainer did was exercise.

Captain Falcon, again, I admit is a surprise. In the very least, him being super fast is a homage to his franchise, and his specials are a homage to the "falcon" aspect.
All WFT does as a character is exercise, but the leap needed to say "When stretching, knock the person next to you" from just "stretching" is a tiny leap. WFT is still "doing" things, things that relatively smoothly translate into fighting moves.

True, but whats this got to do with Diskun?

It's again showing the absurdity of using / arbitrary relationships to give traits from something else onto something new for the sake of making that "Something new" a viable character.

Nothing Captain Falcon or ROB did was unique. That's why characters are given things.

Which is why I think R.O.B. is one of the more likely cuts (though the biggest reason is lack of appeal.) The reason I think Captain Falcon is a shoo-in is because of the massive appeal, the amazing reception he received.

 

[Berserker.]

We need more Britney spear characters in Smash anyway

 

[3Bismyname]

Oh, I've played Smash Bros, and by playing Smash Bros, it became overtly apparent that the devs tried to use moves that the characters were already known to use whenever possible.
.

I don't really wanna fight but I just gotta say, Really? u really wanna make this claim? cause a good half the roster do things they weren't capable of within their own games. or at least weren't possible without the use of a power up of some sort. hell even more than half now that im actually thinking of it.

 

[EddyBearr]

I don't really wanna fight but I just gotta say, Really? u really wanna make this claim? cause a good half the roster do things they were never capable of within their own games. hell even more than half now that im actually thinking of it.

At least half the roster has 5-10 moves they were known to be able to do. (Or, in the case of like Mother Characters or FE characters, fellow PSI-Children or fellow-swordsman were able to do.)

Almost all characters have a few.

I never said that their entire moveset should be only things they were able to do, but there should be at least some, so to show that the character was not re-invented by Smash Bros, but is still the same character it was in its franchise.

 

[SchAlternate]

Which is why I think R.O.B. is one of the more likely cuts. (though the biggest reason is lack of appeal.)

Well, glad you willingly decided to destroy your credibility.

 

[EddyBearr]

Well, glad you willingly decided to destroy your credibility.

I know of very few people who like R.O.B. all that much, and many who just plain hate him.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Okay fine, we'll talk about Chrom instead.

 

[SchAlternate]

I know of very few people who like R.O.B. all that much, and many who just plain hate him.

Still not enough to be downright considered a possible cut.

Did you know R.O.B. is so important to Nintendo, it LITERALLY saved it from going down? Removing such an important character from the roster would feel rather... disrespectful...

 

[3Bismyname]

At least half the roster has 5-10 moves they were known to be able to do. (Or, in the case of like Mother Characters or FE characters, fellow PSI-Children or fellow-swordsman were able to do.)

Almost all characters have a few.

I never said that their entire moveset should be only things they were able to do, but there should be at least some.

u said "it became overtly apparent that the devs tried to use moves that the characters were already known to use whenever possible." that's highly inaccurate. pretty much everyones movesets are based off of power ups and accessories that they are not able to use freely within their games. hell characters like Zelda uses moves that she never really used herself but is assumed that she could. ur logic is severely flawed.

 

[EddyBearr]

Still not enough to be downright considered a possible cut.

Did you know R.O.B. is so important to Nintendo, it LITERALLY saved it from going down?

Yes, I'm aware of this. For many reasons, I believe R.O.B.s best role is as an assist trophy.

u said "it became overtly apparent that the devs tried to use moves that the characters were already known to use whenever possible." that's highly inaccurate. pretty much everyones movesets are based off of power ups and accessories that they are not able to use freely within their games. hell characters like Zelda uses moves that she never really used herself. ur logic is severely wrong.

I'm sorry, but I don't think people should have to unlock Link's master sword. Just because a person doesn't have to unlock certain moves or items doesn't mean it's not based clearly on the game. It's overtly clear that it's a homage to their original abilities in their original games.

Zelda's was known to be magical, and Zelda's extrapolation, being a magical triforce holding member of the royal family, isn't a very big stretch for allowing her to use Din's Fire and etc. Above that, I said above that innovation is fine if it's absolutely necessary for a character that's pretty much necessary. Zelda was a necessary character.

Other variables piling up can overpower certain variables, it's all about looking at all the variables and making many cost-benefit analysis. One variable can be skewed or broken if the other variables are very overpowering.

 

[SchAlternate]

Yes, I'm aware of this. For many reasons, I believe R.O.B.s best role is as an assist trophy.

Damn it, you had to quote that post just as soon as I was editing it.

 

[Johnknight1]

Okay fine, we'll talk about Chrom instead.

Only if we talk about his booty...

 

[Starphoenix]

Inb4 Chandelure's Waddle Dee propaganda.

Haters can go kick a rock. Spear Copter would be amazing.

 

[EddyBearr]

Damn it, you had to quote that post just as soon as I was editing it.

I don't really see "removing him from the roster" as all that disrespectful. Removing him from the game, absolutely, but moving him to Assist Trophy shouldn't be all that bad. Then again, this is one of those cases where we, as predictors, are unfortunately forced to use our own subjective systems of value to come to a conclusion. Nintendo is a company that wants to bring in cash, and a more appealing character than R.O.B. could help Nintendo bring in more money.

Nintendo's decisions aren't made solely by one person who might get their feelings hurt, it's made by board members who are trying to decide what's best for the company. The bottom line of a company is always to make money.

 

[3Bismyname]

Only if we talk about his booty...

 

[SchAlternate]

I don't really see "removing him from the roster" as all that disrespectful. Removing him from the game, absolutely, but moving him to Assist Trophy shouldn't be all that bad. Then again, this is one of those cases where we, as predictors, are unfortunately forced to use our own subjective systems of value to come to a conclusion. Nintendo is a company that wants to bring in cash, and a more appealing character than R.O.B. could help Nintendo bring in more money.

Nintendo's decisions aren't made solely by one person who might get their feelings hurt, it's made by board members who are trying to decide what's best for the company. The bottom line of a company is always to make money.

...

This logic... It makes my head hurt... I... I can't even... How could you even come to that...

That's it, I give up. I'm done with you.

 

[3Bismyname]

I'm sorry, but I don't think people should have to unlock Link's master sword. Just because a person doesn't have to unlock certain moves or items doesn't mean it's not based clearly on the game. It's overtly clear that it's a homage to their original abilities in their original games.

Zelda's was known to be magical, and Zelda's extrapolation, being a magical triforce holding member of the royal family, isn't a very big stretch for allowing her to use Din's Fire and etc. Above that, I said above that innovation is fine if it's absolutely necessary for a character that's pretty much necessary. Zelda was a necessary character.

Other variables piling up can overpower certain variables, it's all about looking at all the variables and making many cost-benefit analysis. One variable can be skewed or broken if the other variables are very overpowering.

but that's proving our point. Zelda was never seen doin those abilities in the games in yet her moveset is based around them. liberties had to be made,similar for characters like Capt Falcon, the Starfox crew, Ice Climbers, Pit, and at the time Roy. while other characters had to pull moves from stuff they normally cant do regularly like with Kirby, ZSS, Ness and Lucas etc.

 

[Starphoenix]

I don't really see "removing him from the roster" as all that disrespectful. Removing him from the game, absolutely, but moving him to Assist Trophy shouldn't be all that bad. Then again, this is one of those cases where we, as predictors, are unfortunately forced to use our own subjective systems of value to come to a conclusion. Nintendo is a company that wants to bring in cash, and a more appealing character than R.O.B. could help Nintendo bring in more money.

Nintendo's decisions aren't made solely by one person who might get their feelings hurt, it's made by board members who are trying to decide what's best for the company. The bottom line of a company is always to make money.

Whoa, wait a minute. It's one thing to be talking about moveset potential, but you're completely jettisoning off into something completely different than you were saying a minute ago about R.O.B. I feel like you're missing the point of characters like home boy. They're supposed to be fun surprises, characters no one would expect. Even though your anecdotal experience says he's not that popular, I have just as much evidence indicating that people I know don't mind him at all. Likewise I really doubt his presence or absence is going to influence the financial performance of the game, any more so than any other character not named Mario, Link, Pikachu, DK, Kirby, Samus or Fox. It's about the collective roster, not the individual. If Nintendo truly wanted to optimize this game it would be just another Mario spin-off, but it's not. It's much more than that. It's as much a celebration of everything Nintendo as it is an opportunity to live out our dream Nintendo matchups. The diversity of characters is what makes the game special. Replacing R.O.B achieves nothing except removing a unique character that represents something important in Nintendo's history. At this point, nobody should be cut; and beyond the possibility of Snake, I don't think Sakurai will.

It's late. My grammar is shot.

 

[Jaedrik]

I know of very few people who like R.O.B. all that much, and many who just plain hate him.

I actually know quite a few people who love R.O.B.. Empirical, anecdotal evidence has, in my opinion, no right to enter these sorts of discussions.

 

[EddyBearr]

I actually know quite a few people who love R.O.B.. Empirical, anecdotal evidence has, in my opinion, no right to enter these sorts of discussions.

I know. I wish I had something more objective to work with. It's the best I can do, so the prediction is the best I can do.

Whoa, wait a minute. It's one thing to be talking about moveset potential, but you're completely jettisoning off into something completely different than you were saying a minute ago about R.O.B. I feel like you're missing the point of characters like home boy. They're supposed to be fun surprises, characters no one would expect. Even though your anecdotal experience says he's not that popular, I have just as much evidence indicating that people I know don't mind him at all. Likewise I really doubt his presence or absence is going to influence the financial performance of the game, any more so than any other character not named Mario, Link, Pikachu, DK, Kirby, Samus or Fox. It's about the collective roster, not the individual. If Nintendo truly wanted to optimize this game it would be just another Mario spin-off, but it's not. It's much more than that. It's as much a celebration of everything Nintendo as it is an opportunity to live out our dream Nintendo matchups. The diversity of characters is what makes the game special. Replacing R.O.B achieves nothing except removing a unique character that represents something important in Nintendo's history. At this point, nobody should be cut; and beyond the possibility of Snake, I don't think Sakurai will.

It's late. My grammar is shot.

It's not that I don't think R.O.B. being in or out affects sales, it's that a character could be more beneficial than R.O.B., and could get in over R.O.B. for that purpose. There are a few cult & fan favorites that could really use the slot, leading to more revenue for Nintendo, and if the roster is to be kept somewhat smaller, I think a few cuts would be necessary. R.O.B. just seems like the "go-to" cut.

Not all characters are supposed to be fun surprises, but fun surprise characters are fun, sometimes. R.O.B. was kinda cool in Brawl, but I don't think he's got a lasting appeal that warrants him in SSB4.

We're in a really subjective territory though, so this is probably an "agree to disagree" part where we'll see. I'm sure folks are confident I'll be wrong, and it does feel kinda weird to me to expect R.O.B. to go.

...

This logic... It makes my head hurt... I... I can't even... How could you even come to that...

That's it, I give up. I'm done with you.

Thanks for the solid rebuttal. Thanks for pointing out where you think you saw logical fallacies. We had a very productive debate. A gaming company making decisions based upon their bottom line? Truly illogical.

but that's proving our point. Zelda was never seen doin those abilities in the games in yet her moveset is based around them. liberties had to be made,similar for characters like Capt Falcon, the Starfox crew, Ice Climbers, Pit, and at the time Roy. while other characters had to pull moves from stuff they normally cant do regularly like with Kirby, ZSS, Ness and Lucas etc.

But my point was never that characters can't have moves that don't match them, my point was that having characters they personally relate to matters, quite a bit.

In basically all the instance, save for C. Falcon, the cases of innovation, whether grand or slight (Zelda being slight, Fox being grand,) were warranted because, due to the ther variables that influence the Smash roster, the characters needed to be in the game. (Pushing it with Lucas, though.)

 

[Jaedrik]

I know. I wish I had something more objective to work with. It's the best I can do, so the prediction is the best I can do.
It's not that I don't think R.O.B. being in or out affects sales, it's that a character could be more beneficial than R.O.B., and could get in over R.O.B. for that purpose. There are a few cult & fan favorites that could really use the slot, leading to more revenue for Nintendo, and if the roster is to be kept somewhat smaller, I think a few cuts would be necessary. R.O.B. just seems like the "go-to" cut.
Not all characters are supposed to be fun surprises, but fun surprise characters are fun, sometimes. R.O.B. was kinda cool in Brawl, but I don't think he's got a lasting appeal that warrants him in SSB4.

We're in a really subjective territory though, so this is probably an "agree to disagree" part where we'll see. I'm sure folks are confident I'll be wrong, and it does feel kinda weird to me to expect R.O.B. to go.
But my point was never that characters can't have moves that don't match them, my point was that having characters they personally relate to matters, quite a bit.

It's very important, when considering human action, to think primarily of the product where economics is involved, being the only thing that creates and is created from capital. We don't want activity, we want stuff. The objective for Nintendo is not as clear as nearly everyone on the planet thinks, Smash 4 doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough, and if R.O.B. is good enough to fit the bill, then he'll be in. We must think about, more than anything else, opportunity cost, and R.O.B. has a decidedly incredibly low opportunity cost due to his already being developed from Brawl, the schemas of his design and potential already laid out in Sakurai's mind, no other would-be character would be sacrificed at his hands, and if so, it is in healthy consideration that this minimal effort would garner less expense on the end product due to production time taken out of a potential newcomer. Regardless of what we think, they have to look at the big picture, and while I admit my picture is not absolutely clear, it'd say it's far more distinct than most. Hey, who knows, maybe the executives, or Sakurai, being fairly autonomous in Nintendo, will think that R.O.B. is not worth the low opportunity cost and minimal time for an already incredibly unique, in terms of playstyle, and decently liked character. I think they won't. Overall, it is always a risky thing to cut something safe, solid, already healthy for something incredibly outlandish, though R.O.B. would no doubt make the smallest chunk of that new element while other things are sacrificed toward it. R.O.B. is so easy at this point, it's equally as silly to say 'cut Wario'.

 

[Bajef8]

I hear people saying it's disrespectful to cut R.O.B....know what's worse? Cutting Jigglypuff. Just sayin. I'll live if someone who appeared once is cut. It isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Jaedrik]

I hear people saying it's disrespectful to cut R.O.B....know what's worse? Cutting Jigglypuff. Just sayin. I'll live if someone who appeared once is cut. It isn't that big of a deal.

Why would they cut a super easy and unique addition? 2EZ 2PZ, way 2LemonSqueezy.

 

[Johnknight1]

How about instead of cutting characters we just delay the game=???

I mean, c'mon! Smash Wii U and 3DS are gonna be 2015 releases anyways (2014, lol; remember "Prepare to Brawl 2007"=???), so delaying them isn't that big of a deal.

Heck, many major games have been delayed this year. GTA V and Watch Dogs both got delayed this year, the latter into next year.

 

[Seraphim.]

How about instead of cutting characters we just delay the game=???

I mean, c'mon! Smash Wii U and 3DS are gonna be 2015 releases anyways (2014, lol; remember "Prepare to Brawl 2007"=???), so delaying them isn't that big of a deal.

Heck, many major games have been delayed this year. GTA V and Watch Dogs both got delayed this year, the latter into next year.

Because people are impatient. Me personally, I can wait because I know if given time this could be the best Smash game yet.

 

[EddyBearr]

I want to play SSB4 competitively, and have a decent run with it. I'm getting to a point in my life where I've only got a couple years to really take games seriously before I have to take life & career prospects seriously.

An SSB4 in mid-2015 might just lose me as a customer, not just for Smash4, but for a Wii U entirely, as I'd only really get a Wii U for Smash4

 

[Johnknight1]

I want to play SSB4 competitively, and have a decent run with it. I'm getting to a point in my life where I've only got a couple years to really take games seriously before I have to take life & career prospects seriously.

An SSB4 in mid-2015 might just lose me as a customer, not just for Smash4, but for a Wii U entirely, as I'd only really get a Wii U for Smash4

If you aren't patient with a release date, then that's not a good sign about your patience at learning said game. If you aren't patient and put in work, you get scraped, and unlike people who put in work, you will continue to get scraped.

Also, a Wii U would likely be cheaper in 2015 than 2014... so yeah.

Because people are impatient. Me personally, I can wait because I know if given time this could be the best Smash game yet.

I don't even care about it being the best smash bros game (I think Melee has a firm grip on that) so much as it is a high quality smash game that maximizes its' potential.

 

[EddyBearr]

If you aren't patient with a release date, then that's not a good sign about your patience at learning said game. If you aren't patient and put in work, you get scraped, and unlike people who put in work, you will continue to get scraped.

Also, a Wii U would likely be cheaper in 2015 than 2014... so yeah.

It's not about patience. If I was 16, I'd say "wait as long as you want." It's about reality asserting itself.

It's not that I'm being impatient, and indeed I can be extremely patient, it's that my time at having fun with competitive gaming is running out, and I'm almost at the point where I just have to focus on life.

 

[Johnknight1]

It's not about patience. If I was 16, I'd say "wait as long as you want." It's about reality asserting itself.

It's not that I'm being impatient, and indeed I can be extremely patient, it's that my time at having fun with competitive gaming is running out, and I'm almost at the point where I just have to focus on life.

Wait... so you're saying, you don't always focus on your life=???

Really, it should work in context to getting your career path (whether by getting a job, going to school, etc) and all that set, so long as you make adequate preparations, unless you're doing some super serious hardcore studying or work like being a surgeon, a hardcore entrepreneur, a business owner, or chief executive in a company or something,

Of course, all that is often null and void if you got kids!

And thus, I gotta say... BABY MARIO BROS FOR SMASH 4!!!! (even if I don't want them, and apparently, neither did their parents)

 

[EddyBearr]

Wait... so you're saying, you don't always focus on your life=???

Really, it should work in context to getting your career path (whether by getting a job, going to school, etc) and all that set, so long as you make adequate preparations, unless you're doing some super serious hardcore studying or work like being a surgeon, a hardcore entrepreneur, a business owner, or chief executive in a company or something,

Of course, all that is often null and void if you got kids!

And thus, I gotta say... BABY MARIO BROS FOR SMASH 4!!!! (even if I don't want them, and apparently, neither did their parents)

Because of some situations I've had to go through (screw the U.S. and it's failure of a safety net,) I'm gonna have to do some "super serious hardcore studying & work."

 

[courte]

internet was out at work all night and... wait is this the Diskun thread?

whatever. ok guys where are you capcom, konami, fire emblem, retro, pokemon, and b string smash rosters?

and don't tell me you didn't have time. i've seen you guys argue over piddly and make rosters like hotcakes. i wanna see 'em naow!