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PS4 will be releasing on the heels of games like Sly4, GoW: Assention and Last of Us. Halo is a good game, but it is only one game. Last of us will be the talk during Q4 of this year during game of the year discussions, and depending on what drops the 20th people are going to not miss out on the many exclusive games PS4 will get in addition to the 3rd party games. with Microsoft already has stated it isn't interested in exclusives, for most gamers it isn't going to be that hard of a choice.
What happened last gaming generation for Microsoft will not go down the same way for this gen. Sony will be pushing the PS4 to be what the PS2 was in it's day. Real talk. That's from a Nintendo fan.
So? They still bought it for Halo 3. There were probably plenty of people who bpught a Wii just so they could play Brawl, even if it wasn't a launch title.
WE REALLY SHOULD GET BACK ON TOPIC BEFORE THIS THREAD IS LOCKED. all caps
But just because I want to give my own opinion on the console wars. I'm not at all interested in Microsoft, they just don't have the IPs that I'm looking for (if there are any as well as Halo), their systems have had high failure rates, and you have to pay for online use.
I like Sony to an extent, would probably like them more if I went out and played more of their IPs besides Jak & Daxter. They also get a lot of non-Nintendo 3rd party titles I like such as Metal Gear, Capcom/Namco fighters, and Sonic.
WE REALLY SHOULD GET BACK ON TOPIC BEFORE THIS THREAD IS LOCKED. all caps
But just because I want to give my own opinion on the console wars. I'm not at all interested in Microsoft, they just don't have the IPs that I'm looking for (if there are any as well as Halo), their systems have had high failure rates, and you have to pay for online use.
I like Sony to an extent, would probably like them more if I went out and played more of their IPs besides Jak & Daxter. They also get a lot of non-Nintendo 3rd party titles I like such as Metal Gear, Capcom/Namco fighters, and Sonic.
I just wanna say that CnC >>>>>>>> Starcraft, though Brood War was fun. Diablo 2 is good, but 3 is garbage. And I've never been interested in the Warcraft Lore/universe, thus never got into the RTS series or WOW. Also, aren't TERA and Vindictus Korean MMOs? Not saying Western MMOs are bad, just saying the good ones aren't Blizzard's, with Diablo 3, Diablo is basically dead. The only WMMOs really pique my interest are Guild Wars and LotR Online. SW: TORtanic is a disaster. Also, some Korean MMOs have unique ideas, I'm tired of all MMOs being fantasy-based. Well, MMOs aren't my thing anyway.
No way, Zelda's only weapon is the Bow+Light Arrow and it's set to her Finisher. She's a mean archer btw, horseback archery is no cakewalk.
Palutena on the other hand could inherit a lot of the weapons not set to Pit. We see her use those claw things in the SHAFT animations. Plus, she also has a staff. What would be neat would be giving Palutena unique magic techs such as boosters and healing techs. I'm not familiar with the KI canon, but it seems to suit her, and if balanced properly it could make for an interesting character.
Zelda needs a complete overhaul, and on this topic I kinda agree with Diddy in that Zelda would be better off without Sheik as the Transform gimmick is detrimental for her. For one, there is no synergy between both characters, and if there was it would mean Sheik sets up kills and Zelda does the killing (which seems to be the idea), but that would either make Zelda very broken (as she ranged) or very ****ty as she already is. Also increasing the transform lag is dumb, it should be near instant, I dunno what Sakurai was thinking there. Sheik getting kills while Zelda sets them up would work better, but then people would only play Sheik. What should be done is more transformation paths than just v+B, and forced Transformation paths, where certain move TURN you into the other character, thus forcing a player to use both. Zelda/Sheik needs to be able to work mid-combo to be any good.
From that perspectice, perhaps I would like to see Zelda go solo, or maybe have a split; and have the transform gimmick get added to other characters instead that could put it to better use. This is why I'd like to see a complete overhaul of the whole roster (though it'll never happen). Imagine Mario using power-ups instead of being a Shoto-clone.
I just wanna say that CnC >>>>>>>> Starcraft, though Brood War was fun
No way, Zelda's only weapon is the Bow+Light Arrow and it's set to her Finisher. She's a mean archer btw, horseback archery is no cakewalk.
Palutena on the other hand could inherit a lot of the weapons not set to Pit. We see her use those claw things in the SHAFT animations. Plus, she also has a staff. What would be neat would be giving Palutena unique magic techs such as boosters and healing techs. I'm not familiar with the KI canon, but it seems to suit her, and if balanced properly it could make for an interesting character.
Zelda needs a complete overhaul, and on this topic I kinda agree with Diddy in that Zelda would be better off without Sheik as the Transform gimmick is detrimental for her. For one, there is no synergy between both characters, and if there was it would mean Sheik sets up kills and Zelda does the killing (which seems to be the idea), but that would either make Zelda very broken (as she ranged) or very ****ty as she already is. Also increasing the transform lag is dumb, it should be near instant, I dunno what Sakurai was thinking there. Sheik getting kills while Zelda sets them up would work better, but then people would only play Sheik. What should be done is more transformation paths than just v+B, and forced Transformation paths, where certain move TURN you into the other character, thus forcing a player to use both. Zelda/Sheik needs to be able to work mid-combo to be any good.
From that perspectice, perhaps I would like to see Zelda go solo, or maybe have a split; and have the transform gimmick get added to other characters instead that could put it to better use. This is why I'd like to see a complete overhaul of the whole roster (though it'll never happen). Imagine Mario using power-ups instead of being a Shoto-clone.
After playing Kid Icarus: Uprising. Most of Palutena's moves involve ranged attacks that keep her opponent at bay.
Zelda Can and should be revamped, but I would be fine if she had a similar moveset with the right amount of buffs in the right place. She is similar to Radec in PSABR, in the sense that players will tend to rely on their ranged attacks for attacking and baiting opponents.
Sony knocked Nintendo off their high horse. They also helped start the idea of gaming platforms as multimedia devices(which was sorta their undoing). Microsoft got the ball rolling on online play(which may or may not be a good thing in your eyes).
Guess you have good points. I think I gave an overstatement (result of my good, but still limited English =P).
What I meant to say is taking into account what Sony and Microsoft have done recently with their consoles, it would be better if they hadn't entered the industry years ago.
Sony with their business strategies involving the PS3 and Vita, by having the consoles with über specs backed by ridiculous prices, thus having excellent quality products, but no sales and Xbox having the Kinect for games whose target audiences aren't minimally into "casual gimmicks."
But all this is off-topic, so let's get back on the SSB4 roster topic.
Palutena on the other hand could inherit a lot of the weapons not set to Pit. We see her use those claw things in the SHAFT animations. Plus, she also has a staff. What would be neat would be giving Palutena unique magic techs such as boosters and healing techs. I'm not familiar with the KI canon, but it seems to suit her, and if balanced properly it could make for an interesting character.
Those claws are actually a weapon Pit uses in Uprising, more specifically, the Wolf Claws. Seeing that all of Pit's weapons in Uprising (a total of 108 types, 12 per one of 9 categories, like Claws, Staffs, Blades or Clubs) are actually divine armaments, it's feasible to have Palutena use some of those weapons. Besides, Palutena has moves she can draw directly from Uprising.
She's a boss in that game. Possessed, sure, but it's still Pit vs. Palutena. And she uses a variety of attacks and even summons Centurions.
And you are not familiar with Kid Icarus canon? Go play Uprising now! =P Just kidding!
Now seriously, it's a great game and you should try it. Or watch some walkthroughs in YouTube, if you want to discuss some story related stuff that could be useful when discussing Pit or Palutena.
Zelda needs a complete overhaul, and on this topic I kinda agree with Diddy in that Zelda would be better off without Sheik as the Transform gimmick is detrimental for her. For one, there is no synergy between both characters, and if there was it would mean Sheik sets up kills and Zelda does the killing (which seems to be the idea), but that would either make Zelda very broken (as she ranged) or very ****ty as she already is. Also increasing the transform lag is dumb, it should be near instant, I dunno what Sakurai was thinking there.
I would like to see Zelda go solo, or maybe a split. And have the transform gimmick get added to other characters instead that could put it to better use. This is why I'd like to see a complete overhaul of the whole roster (though it'll never happen). Imagine Mario using power-ups instead of being a Shoto-clone.
First of all, the transformation mechanic isn't bad per se. There's bad balance between Zelda and Sheik. Imagine if Zelda was a more defensive oriented character, relying on slow strong moves, having more powerful, yet slow projectiles and having emphasis on taking hits and striking from afar, while Sheik was of the speedster variety by comboing with melee attacks and having good movement and attack speed, while having bad defense. They would both complement each other well. It would be like you said: Sheik would rack up the damage with combos and such, then transform to Zelda and unleash a more powerful move to finish the foe off.
The problem isn't in the transformation mechanic, the problem is in the character balance that makes Sheik a more useful character to many.
The transformation lag in Brawl was due to loading limitations which shouldn't have been present in the first place, especially when considering that the transformation time is inconsistent and unpredictable. We're talking about the fact that each time you use the Transformation move, the game is loading a model, animations and other data related to the character you're transforming into. It's not very forgivable and not very acceptable when considering good game design, now is it?
Sakurai has revealed that he would change (possibly meaning redesign) some characters' gameplay. Now how deep will those changes be... that's the question.
CnC Red Alert 2=CnC Generals Zero Hour>CnC Firestorm=Brood War>CnC 3/Kane's Wrath>Emperor Battle for Dune=CnC Red Alert>Starcraft 2>CnC Vanilla>Starcraft Vanilla>Dune 2000>Dune>>>>>>That pile of **** known as Red Alert 3
CnC4 doesn't exist.
Anyway, Palutena is definitely gonna be a ranged character with some mean pokes. I'm intrigued to see what Sakurai will do with her as I still haven't played Uprising. I heard she's a secret Boss. Anyone got a link to a video? I never usually don't mind spoilers.
**** the ******* who spoiled Katanagatari for me... I'm still mad about that
Palutena is not a secret boss, it's required. Technically speaking you only fight her only one time in Chapter 20 in the story mode. However, you don't actually fight her, but rather the Chaos Kin. If you actually kill Palutena, you get a Game Over.
But there is also a doppelganger named Pseudo-Palutena you fight at Chapter 24. Pseudo-Palutena is basically a demented version of Palutena with much more aggressive attacks and a really violent disposition.
Pseudo-Palutena is exactly the same as Palutena, when talking about moves.
She just has louder quotes during battle and a more obnoxious disposition. Moveset wise, she is the same as the possessed Palutena you fight earlier.
Now that I think of it, if Palutena makes in, they could put a Pseudo-Palutena costume, altering the voice clips and taunts to more agressive ones.
And yeah, you must not kill Palutena in her boss battle (which was damn frustrating when I game over'd the chapter on max difficulty precisely because I killed Palutena... I just had to misaim that forward dash charged shot... -_-).
Guess you have good points. I think I gave an overstatement (result of my good, but still limited English =P).
What I meant to say is taking into account what Sony and Microsoft have done recently with their consoles, it would be better if they hadn't entered the industry years ago.
Sony with their business strategies involving the PS3 and Vita, by having the consoles with über specs backed by ridiculous prices, thus having excellent quality products, but no sales and Xbox having the Kinect for games whose target audiences aren't minimally into "casual gimmicks."
But all this is off-topic, so let's get back on the SSB4 roster topic.
Those claws are actually a weapon Pit uses in Uprising, more specifically, the Wolf Claws. Seeing that all of Pit's weapons in Uprising (a total of 108 types, 12 per one of 9 categories, like Claws, Staffs, Blades or Clubs) are actually divine armaments, it's feasible to have Palutena use some of those weapons. Besides, Palutena has moves she can draw directly from Uprising.
She's a boss in that game. Possessed, sure, but it's still Pit vs. Palutena. And she uses a variety of attacks and even summons Centurions.
And you are not familiar with Kid Icarus canon? Go play Uprising now! =P Just kidding!
Now seriously, it's a great game and you should try it. Or watch some walkthroughs in YouTube, if you want to discuss some story related stuff that could be useful when discussing Pit or Palutena.
First of all, the transformation mechanic isn't bad per se. There's bad balance between Zelda and Sheik. Imagine if Zelda was a more defensive oriented character, relying on slow strong moves, having more powerful, yet slow projectiles and having emphasis on taking hits and striking from afar, while Sheik was of the speedster variety by comboing with melee attacks and having good movement and attack speed, while having bad defense. They would both complement each other well. It would be like you said: Sheik would rack up the damage with combos and such, then transform to Zelda and unleash a more powerful move to finish the foe off.
The problem isn't in the transformation mechanic, the problem is in the character balance that makes Sheik a more useful character to many.
The transformation lag in Brawl was due to loading limitations which shouldn't have been present in the first place, especially when considering that the transformation time is inconsistent and unpredictable. We're talking about the fact that each time you use the Transformation move, the game is loading a model, animations and other data related to the character you're transforming into. It's not very forgivable and not very acceptable when considering good game design, now is it?
Sakurai has revealed that he would change (possibly meaning redesign) some characters' gameplay. Now how deep will those changes be... that's the question.
Palutena is not a secret boss, it's required. Technically speaking you only fighter her only one time in Chapter 20 in the story mode. However, you don't actually fighter her, but rather the Chaos Kin. If you actually kill Palutena, you get a Game Over.
But there is also a doppelganger named Pseudo-Palutena you fight at Chapter 24. Pseudo-Palutena is basically a demented version of Palutena with much more aggressive attacks and a really violent disposition.
Anyway, I do plan on picking up Uprising whenever I get around to buying a 3DS. I just have a huge backlog of games to get over before doing so, with both PC and PSP. Not to mention I still gotta get around to buying a Wii and PS3 again as I sold all my consoles 3 years ago and basically missed out on half a generation...
But yeah, Uprising is among the top 3DS games I plan on getting for the 3DS.
As for Zelda, it's interesting to note that the lag was due to technical issues and not balance...
Sakurai has revealed that he would change (possibly meaning redesign) some characters' gameplay. Now how deep will those changes be... that's the question.
Technical issues that completely wrecked the character...
Try this on Brawl: pick Zelda, transform, pause during the transformation, resume game, save a replay at the end. First of all, you will notice that you will cheat the transform time by pausing the game (because it will continue loading while the game is paused). Upon watching the replay, it will lag (0 FPS, literally) for the time you paused the game during the transformation.
This also happens with Castle Siege's transitions and other transforming characters (Samus and Pokémon Trainer).
Because Melee's loading time were almost instantaneous. I mean, compare the stage loading times for Melee and Brawl. Now, extrapolate it to Zelda's transformation times.
CnC Red Alert 2=CnC Generals Zero Hour>CnC Firestorm=Brood War>CnC 3/Kane's Wrath>Emperor Battle for Dune=CnC Red Alert>Starcraft 2>CnC Vanilla>Starcraft Vanilla>Dune 2000>Dune>>>>>>That pile of **** known as Red Alert 3
CnC4 doesn't exist.
Anyway, Palutena is definitely gonna be a ranged character with some mean pokes. I'm intrigued to see what Sakurai will do with her as I still haven't played Uprising. I heard she's a secret Boss. Anyone got a link to a video? I never usually don't mind spoilers.
**** the ******* who spoiled Katanagatari for me... I'm still mad about that
Some hasn't played any of the Shogun games I haven't played Emperor Battle for Dune, Kane's Wrath and Red Alert never interested me.
But yeah Palutena's play-style revolves around a lot of ranged attacks. I can try to find a link of a boss battle that showcase her moves chances are it will be offscreen though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo3b0mBmeYo
Technical issues that completely wrecked the character...
Try this on Brawl: pick Zelda, transform, pause during the transformation, resume game, save a replay at the end. First of all, you will notice that you will cheat the transform time by pausing the game (because it will continue loading while the game is paused). Upon watching the replay, it will lag (0 FPS, literally) for the time you paused the game during the transformation.
This also happens with Castle Siege's transitions and other transforming characters (Samus and Pokémon Trainer).
It's not an excuse to not have Sheik, at all. If Melee had no lag during the transformation, so can SSB4 have no lag as well. It's just a matter of having quick loading.
Ninja'd by shinpichu... =P
Yeah, they should fix the lag issues Brawl had. I mean, Brawl is a good game, but its loading times are just too long, especially when considering that Melee and even other Wii games had shorter loading times.
First of all, the transformation mechanic isn't bad per se. There's bad balance between Zelda and Sheik. Imagine if Zelda was a more defensive oriented character, relying on slow strong moves, having more powerful, yet slow projectiles and having emphasis on taking hits and striking from afar, while Sheik was of the speedster variety by comboing with melee attacks and having good movement and attack speed, while having bad defense. They would both complement each other well. It would be like you said: Sheik would rack up the damage with combos and such, then transform to Zelda and unleash a more powerful move to finish the foe off.
The problem isn't in the transformation mechanic, the problem is in the character balance that makes Sheik a more useful character to many.
The problem with your solution is that the Smash mechanics already favor Sheik as it is. They don't need more polarizing aspects. Rather, the two need to be designed to where they can be played as an "Army of Me" where one is not inherently reliant on the other. In other words, they need to be better rounded. Zelda suffers greatly from Overly Crippling Specialist, except her specialties fall flat.
When it comes to team synergy, you want your team members to have their differences, but also key similarities. As I mentioned in the past, I had a Xiaoyu/King team when I started out with Tag 2. The problem with this team was that they were too different from one another. Xiaoyu is all about movement and only getting in when she needs to due to the struggle involved while having strong mixup potential. King is all about grabs and the different types of grabs involving different counters, but his mobility isn't quite as good as I might like. As a result, they had too many contrasts to be practical, so I switched to Jaycee who was more of middle of the road character for Xiaoyu's partner and dropped King. It also helped that Jaycee was a lot more flexible in what she could do for attacks, movement, defense, etc.
Zelda and Sheik do not have this. As Manly said, if they want to keep the mechanic for them, the key thing is to let them switch as part of their combos.
The funny thing is that the Brawl mods have made the loading times quicker. The big problem was that the programmers thought it was a good idea to have the data loading for the characters happen at the transformation instead of being in wait in the cache (sort of like a recently visited tab). The same applied to the Pokemon Trainer and to a certain extent Samus.
But that wouldn't fix the fundamental problem with Zelda/Sheik, which is the synergy between the two of them. People NEED to be forced to use both effectively to be good with the character. Dunno if Sakurai will ever get this right, and I don't blame him, it's not an easy character to balance.
That also depends on how Zelda/Sheik was programmed... I mean, why LOAD a new character with v+B? Why not make them both the same character? You don't see Olimar LOAD new Pikmin. I sure it has something to do with Smash's engine, I'm not keen on it so I can't say, but in an arcade fighter you could very well make the Zelda/Sheik gimmick work without loading times at all, by making the duo a single entity that changes hitboxes. The again, Smash is not using sprites, but instead wire-frames and skeletons. I'm sure that must be the obstacle.
But that wouldn't fix the fundamental problem with Zelda/Sheik, which is the synergy between the two of them. People NEED to be forced to use both effectively to be good with the character. Dunno if Sakurai will ever get this right, and I don't blame him, it's not an easy character to balance.
Um...when did I mention synergy between the two? Diddy said the loading times were a reason to replace Sheik with Impa. I said you could just, y'know, FIX THE LOADING TIMES. I never said anything about the mechanic itself, or the balance or synergy between the two.
Um...when did I mention synergy between the two? Diddy said the loading times were a reason to replace Sheik with Impa. I said you could just, y'know, FIX THE LOADING TIMES. I never said anything about the mechanic itself, or the balance or synergy between the two.
One thing Zelda desperately needs is more options for approaching. She's supposedly designed for more defensive purposes, but those options are so fundamentally flawed that she's pretty much forced to use offensive options, which is pretty awful.
Nayru's Love could use some revamping so that it's a much better defensive option? Other than that, she could use some faster moves, and somewhat more range. Magical attacks should reach further than normal attacks I think?
Zelda is decent at shutting down approaches from most characters. Her Up smash is pretty good at racking up damages at low percents as well as a good finisher. Her poking D-tilt can set opponents up for a good U smash/F Smash. She on the flip side isn't so good at approaching opponents.
Her Recovery (Like Wolf) needs work. In Brawl her options were limited to octagonal directions. In Melee there was room for finer Tele angles.
She needs needs a good move that she can safely throw out with out getting punished, because it seems like all of her moves leave her open. I'd say changing either her Bair or Fair for a move to potentially fill that spot would be ideal.
I think it would be pretty neat if Zelda's Shield was replaced with Nayru's Love similar to how Yoshi's Shield is an egg. Every time the player releases the shield it would do the same thing as it does when she uses it in Brawl. I think it would be an interesting concept and could free up Zelda's B move for something else.
Nayru's Love could use some revamping so that it's a much better defensive option? Other than that, she could use some faster moves, and somewhat more range. Magical attacks should reach further than normal attacks I think?
[COLLAPSE="For those too lazy"]The 10-frame startup and full body guard point properties make this a very good DP to get Mu's opponents off of her.
623C is a very good 10f DP (Dragon Punch) for the fact that it has full body guard point starting on frames 1-18. Which means once the input is performed, any attack from your opponent will be guard pointed and will get hit by the DP. This is one of the best DPs in the game along with Ragna's DP. It's hitbox covers all around Mu which makes it so you can't bait the DP by crossing her up. One downside to this move is that it is not air unblockable but it is not significant compared to all the other good aspects of this move.
Because of the changes in Extend, it can now be performed when Mu is in the air! It is possible to combo after this move but the opponent has to be somewhat close and far away from the corner or meter must be spent to perform a combo. It is mostly used to get Mu's opponent off of her but it can also be used to clash with certain moves creating scenarios that your opponent would not expect. Can be used as a crossup when combined with an instant air dash, very risky though.
[/COLLAPSE]
Basically it's very fast at start up and it hits opponents hard enough to get them off her ***, since she's a long range character.
In fact, I'd take a number of moves from Mu-12 and Ky Kisuke and work them into Zelda, including
>Furu no Tsurugi - Sword of Decimation
>6C
>5C
As well as making Din's Fire multicastable, meaning you can cast 2-3 in a row if you're quick enough, instead of exploding upon release, they self quide on momentum for a couple a second or so and then explode, would balance the power on them though.
Farore's Wind is fine.
I would rework a lot of her neutrals to make them mid-ranged attacks, and up her speed and fallspeed a little.
This is if Zelda's going solo, Zelda/Sheik is a nightmare and needs MUCH more work than just buffing Zelda. Making Zelda better will just make people play as Zelda. In order to effectively make them a dual character you need to make them both independent and co-dependent on one another at the same time. The also need to be able to transform very quickly mid combo, but you can't make either one too powerful, as Zelda/Sheik runs the highest risk out of the entire Smash Cast of being very broken, well not as much as Samsu has, but still a solid 2nd place.
Trust me, MK's got nothing on what Samus and Zelda/Sheik could potentially do, and it's not even b/c of ZSS for Samus, Samus armored has more than enough untapped aresenal to devastate the entire cast (Ice beam, Ice Missiles, TRUE Screw Attack, Booster, and much, much more.
Peach, Link, Ganondorf, DK, and Ike are other characters that could be MUCH better (and Peach is already good as is).
Exactly Manly, hence, Impa really, really is not a bad idea at all. It's now or never. Do or die.
Impa is awesome, and worthy of Smash. She alone sticks out as the only real viable choice for a Zelda character that is not a variation of Link, Zelda or Ganondorf. I believe that'd be the best thing to do.
Otherwise, make Impa and Zelda ACTUAL duo characters. Like, Impa standing in Zelda's shadow while she fights and attacking at the same time as Zelda. That's another sort of potential Sheik wouldn't be able to do.
Like, Impa standing in Zelda's shadow while she fights and attacking at the same time as Zelda. That's another sort of potential Sheik wouldn't be able to do.
That's... actually not a bad idea. I could vouch for Impa if it's like that. But then Zelda would be a Duo/Puppeteer character like Ice Climbers than a transforming character, but that could also let us improve or port the Transform gimmick to someone else.
Speaking of which he'd be a friggin awesome transforming character. He could be done a la Freeza in DBZ. Taking Diddy's idea for Pokemon Evolution with Pikachu.
AND THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!!
Vaati alongside Masked Link are the most interesting potential newcomers for Smash, shame they both have such a low chance.
