Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Robert of Normandy]

But Toon Link has his items from WW, like Skull Hammer, Deku Leaf and the Grappling hook. They can at least declone his specials .

Or not. I love WW, but I don't want Toon Link to be decloned much. Give him his changes in P:M, let him change arrowhead, give him the Grappling hook instead of the Hookshot. That would be good enough for me.

 

[Deleted member]

Or not. I love WW, but I don't want Toon Link to be decloned much. Give him his changes in P:M, let him change arrowhead, give him the Grappling hook instead of the Hookshot. That would be good enough for me.

Toon Link should have been Four Sword Link, with moves like the Gust Jar, the Grapple Hook, the Leaf, Roc's Cape, the Hurricane Spin Attack, and a Cloning Gimmick to boot. He had SOOO Much potential, but instead we got a short and floaty Link with no inspiration.

See, it's those sorts of things that peeve me about clones. Some characters have a lot of things going for them, but end up a lazy copies of other characters.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

things going for them, but end up a lazy copies of other characters.

This and the fact that while they could be made more unique most people want them to remain the same, and sakurai seems to do just that out of tradition.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Toon Link should have been Four Sword Link, with moves like the Gust Jar, the Grapple Hook, the Leaf, Roc's Cape, the Hurricane Spin Attack, and a Cloning Gimmick to boot. He had SOOO Much potential, but instead we got a short and floaty Link with no inspiration.

Well, I like that Link. Him being a "copy" of Link makes sense to me.

 

[FalKoopa]

Well, I like that Link. Him being a "copy" of Link makes sense to me.

If he HAD to be a copy, he could have been an alt, i suppose.

 

[BKupa666]

What frustrates me is that each and every cloned character has the potential to have unique moves, but doesn't actually use them (and, in Ganondorf's case, tauntingly doesn't use them). But if it's a choice between not having them in the game at all, or having them in their cloned state, I think most people would quickly choose the latter.

Though I have to wonder, if Ganondorf were left out of Melee, he'd have been a shoo-in for Brawl and would have gotten a unique moveset to boot. . .what could have been.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

What frustrates me is that each and every cloned character has the potential to have unique moves, but doesn't actually use them (and, in Ganondorf's case, tauntingly doesn't use them). But if it's a choice between not having them in the game at all, or having them in their cloned state, I think most people would quickly choose the latter.

Though I have to wonder, if Ganondorf were left out of Melee, he'd have been a shoo-in for Brawl and would have gotten a unique moveset to boot. . .what could have been.

Ganondorf is the only character that needs to be decloned IMO. But I still think his old moveset should be somehow selectable.

 

[Watashi]

Has sakurai ever clarified why he made a clone?

He only got put in due to popularity and he had similar shape to Captain Falcon.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I like that Link. Him being a "copy" of Link makes sense to me.

EXACTLY, and that's part of the problem, and also the reason this sort of thing is to be expected out of All-Star games. They lack the freedom other fighters have when it comes to building characters. They have to focus on iconography rather than game design.

And most people just accept it because it makes sense. However, I still stand by the notion that it's uninspired and lazy, and thus I don't stand by it because clones represent one of the biggest problems in the industry today, lazy devs who take short cuts.

Right now, the roster for Smash is very healthy and actually looking kinda cramped, thus keeping clones is not longer an option imo.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

now, the roster for Smash is very healthy and actually looking kinda cramped, thus keeping clones is not longer an option imo.

Why? The rosters only going to get bigger, and quite frankly I don't think Sakurai would be keen on adding clones to the roster. Even if the current clones remain as-is, they'll be drowned out by a whole bunch of non-clone newcomers.

 

[BKupa666]

Plus, consider what newcomers exist out there that could be remotely cloney. There aren't exactly a whole lot of them...I've only really seen Bowser Jr., Dixie and Samurai Goroh tossed around as possibilities, and there's no way any of them wouldn't be at least as unique as Wolf or Lucas.

 

[Deleted member]

Why? The rosters only going to get bigger, and quite frankly I don't think Sakurai would be keen on adding clones to the roster. Even if the current clones remain as-is, they'll be drowned out by a whole bunch of non-clone newcomers.

Because the larger the roster, the more difficult it becomes to balance.

One more thing to add, even in story-telling paradoxical "clone" characters are boring and uninspired.
>Evil Goku
>Shadow the Hedgehog
>Mecha Sonic
>Waluigi
>Cell

The Dark version of the Hero who is just evil to be evil is just flat out lame. Imagine if there was in "Evil" King Arthur in the Arthurian Tales, how lame would that be? Paradoxes and contrasts are best reflected in characters that are opposite to the hero in nature and appearance. Not the same thing but redone. The Hero is honest, handsome and heroic? Well, the paradox character resonates by being the exact opposite, gruesome, cunning, vindictive, ect.. The more differences there are the better. Look at Mickey and Bluno, they're polar opposites, and thus they work very well.

The only time I've ever seen a "clone" figure be interesting was in Bleach with Hollow Ichigo, and that was simply because his personality was so radically different, that it was ok, not to the mention the psychological aspect of it being a mental manifestation if Ichigo's instinct (that of course was ruined in typical Kubo fashion as the series progressed).

It's the same idea in other media. Much more thought is put by a writer when he thinks up a character than can contrast the Protagonist's figures, than by one that says: "Ok, now I take Sonic, and I color him Purple, he's the Evil Sonic, with the same abilities, but a DARK personality, ORIGINAL CONTENT DO NOT STEAL." Anyone can do that, as evidenced by ****ty fanfics. Read Heart of Darkness and contrast how Kurtz is a paradox of Marlow. Or Frankenstein and compare the Dr. to the Monster, THAT's a paradox done right. Anime, Manga and Vidya do it too sometimes, but these days it's hard to come by. Good examples would be Guts and Griffith in Berserk, or Kenshin and Shishio in Ruroni Kenshin, Light and L in Death Note, Dr. Tenma and Johan in Monster, etc...

In fighting games it's the same thing. One developer puts a lot of thought into making a character, even if there are similarities.

Noel to Mu-12
Carl to Relius
Sol to Order Sol
Ky to Robo Ky
Sagat to Adon
etc...

And the other just copy pastes abilities from one on to the other, adds a couple differences and calls it a day. Tell me, which one put more effort in? Which one is of better quality?

Ryu and Ken made sense in context BECAUSE they were supposed to be identical recolors of the same characters, but the Capcom went out of their way to make them different. It's the same Scenario as the Super Mario Bros. in SMB and Smash64. But had SF been conceived in recent times, and we got Ryu and Ken as clone-esque characters I would have been well opposed to it.

Spoiler

Ken still sucks though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like Toon Link in Brawl actually.

 

[3Bismyname]

I like Toon Link in Brawl actually.

same. i hated the other Link

 

[Big-Cat]

You forgot Balrog to Dudley. You could arguably compare Sakura, Dan, and Gouken to Ryu as well.

My thoughts on clones:
I honestly don't care for clones. Yet, at the same time, my favorite fighter right now is most definitely Tekken Tag 2 where you have plenty of clones/semi-clones in that game:

Sebastian to Lili
Tiger to Christie/Eddie - Those two really need to diverge along with Kuma and Panda.
Angel to Devil Jin - Though she debuted well before Devil Jin.
Miharu to Xiaoyu
Forrest to Marshall
Alex to Roger Jr.
P. Jack to Jack-6

This was justified by Harada as allowing players to learn just one character but still have the tag benefits. Ironically, I've commonly heard that clone teams are not that great as they do not cover each others bad matchups. As I said above for the Capos, there needs to be much more divergence on these clones. Some key similarities are expected if they're characteristic of the fighting style, but I'd rather it be like how the Bryants in Virtua Fighter now play nothing alike.

Still, TTT2 still has better thought out "clones" to where you can't play them quite like their original counterparts, but still sync well.

Michelle to Jaycee
Jun to Asuka - Though this one's up for debate.
Baek to Hwoarang
Heihachi/Devil Jin to Kazuya
Bryan to Bruce
Armor King to King

For Smash, I feel all the characters are capable of playing in a unique fashion while still being faithful to the source material, this especially applies to Falco and Lucas (though Wolf could use different specials or change them up more).

 

[FalKoopa]

same. i hated the other Link

I liked both of them.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Spoiler

Wolf is not a clone.

Spoiler

Not even a semi-clone.

Spoiler

Holy **** I suddenly love you now. Trust me, having someone say this outside of myself makes me happy.

Spoiler

I still think Lucas is not a clone.

 

[Deleted member]

A little more since I feel like ranting for a bit.

Another problem with clones is that they take away access from certain properties to other characters.

The point that "They allow you to experiment with other variations of the same character" is a poor one. As THAT is the problem with clones.

As I said before, characters need to be built with a strategy in mind.
>What are their weaknesses?
>Strengths?
>Combos?
>Sweet spots?
>Is he a Zoner, a Rush Down?
>Is he defensive, or offensive?
etc...

And their properties adjust to best fit their moves in a balanced matter. The only character who got away with doing this right was Falco (and Melee Ganondorf), and this is because Fox (and Falcon) are very well balanced "Jack-of-all-trades" characters that can lend themselves to excelling with different properties. If you look at the more role focused characters like Link and Ness, you are either stuck with one good character and one bad character, or two mediocre characters who don't excel in anything. And now the worse character cannot change his properties to adapt, as that is the main divider between it and its clone.

If clones didn't exist you could very well give Ness more "magical" mid range pokes and power killers, or make Link faster and more "floaty." In order to give them the necessities to excel what they do best.

Characters and their moves shouldn't be programmed to allow you to change their properties and give you a different character that functions. That's like giving Chun Li faster speed like Cammy and calling it a new character. It would suck eggs as Chun Li isn't built around speed. Also, character experimentation is what sequels are for. This is when you tweak properties and moves to make characters fresh and interesting.

For example, take DK, if you make a lighter DK in the form of Kiddy, or a Heavier DK in the form of Chunky with more hitstun, I guarantee you, BOTH would outclass DK, as they would be the same character with the properties that SHOULD be added to the original to make it a better character. This is one of the deals with Bowser Jr. He would outclass Papa Bowser as he would have the speed that Bowser lacks to make effective use of his moves, perhaps even making him high tier.

 

[SmashShadow]

I find Sonic more boring than Shadow. He's never really had much personality outside of running and helping people.

 

[Frostwraith]

And Shadow is just anti-heroic angst, angst and more angst...

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Isn't Micaiah widely disliked for being a "Mary sue" .

Granted Ike isn't that well liked in Japan compared to Marth, Roy, and Chrom, but I thought I'd point that out.

I've been seeing this word for quite a long time. Can someone explain to me what's this Mary Sue?

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler

Holy **** I suddenly love you now. Trust me, having someone say this outside of myself makes me happy.

Spoiler

I still think Lucas is not a clone.

It annoys the ever-living **** outta me when people call Wolf a clone and want him cut because of it, but say Falco should stay.

Spoiler

JonTron

It should be the other way around really.

Spoiler

Lucas is a clone by arcade fighter standards, and a semi-clone by Smash standards, different moves do not a clone remove.

You forgot Balrog to Dudley. You could arguably compare Sakura, Dan, and Gouken to Ryu as well.

My thoughts on clones:
I honestly don't care for clones. Yet, at the same time, my favorite fighter right now is most definitely Tekken Tag 2 where you have plenty of clones/semi-clones in that game:

Sebastian to Lili
Tiger to Christie/Eddie - Those two really need to diverge along with Kuma and Panda.
Angel to Devil Jin - Though she debuted well before Devil Jin.
Miharu to Xiaoyu
Forrest to Marshall
Alex to Roger Jr.
P. Jack to Jack-6

This was justified by Harada as allowing players to learn just one character but still have the tag benefits. Ironically, I've commonly heard that clone teams are not that great as they do not cover each others bad matchups. As I said above for the Capos, there needs to be much more divergence on these clones. Some key similarities are expected if they're characteristic of the fighting style, but I'd rather it be like how the Bryants in Virtua Fighter now play nothing alike.

Still, TTT2 still has better thought out "clones" to where you can't play them quite like their original counterparts, but still sync well.

Michelle to Jaycee
Jun to Asuka - Though this one's up for debate.
Baek to Hwoarang
Heihachi/Devil Jin to Kazuya
Bryan to Bruce
Armor King to King

For Smash, I feel all the characters are capable of playing in a unique fashion while still being faithful to the source material, this especially applies to Falco and Lucas (though Wolf could use different specials or change them up more).

I haven't played TTT2, but for some reason I was thinking of SFxT. I

Spoiler

pirated

the latter for a bit to get a feel for the game and see if it was worth a buy, but the Gem system annoyed the hell outta me. I don't recall seeing clones in that though.

As for TTT2, I would say that's because the clones are built from the ground up as characters that are meant to be alternate versions of their original, without taking away from what the original has or could use. Second I assume they're given different moves and gimmicks that differentiate them a lot from the original. Lastly, sometimes clones are added for testing purposes for future games, this is a better option sometimes to the tweaking in between games to 'get it right' other devs do. The clones aren't there to compensate the lack of faces in the roster, nor are they filler to make it look meatier, at least that's not their intended purpose I assume.


EDIT:

I've been seeing this word for quite a long time. Can someone explain to me what's this Mary Sue?

I see it on /a/ all the time, especially when Sword Art Online was airing, the male counterpart was Gary Stu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Basically an overpowered character that can do EVERYTHING without consequences, e.g. Superman is a Gary Stu.

 

[Frostwraith]

I've been seeing this word for quite a long time. Can someone explain to me what's this Mary Sue?

Check here.

It's usually a character that's presented in a way that he/she has no apparent flaws, and even if he/she has, they are easily forgiven or not given importance in the first place.

EDIT: Also, everyone with half a brain can immediatly note that Wolf is not a clone.

 

[Deleted member]

And Shadow is just anti-heroic angst, angst and more angst...

Only in his own game.
Ironically, he gets over it at the end of it, yet people still see it as a defining trait.

 

[Frostwraith]

@Golden: Hence, my trollface.

 

[Deleted member]

@Golden: Hence, my trollface.

Well played.

 

[Deleted member]

Only in his own game.
Ironically, he gets over it at the end of it, yet people still see it as a defining trait.

Nah, Shadow's just that dark, mysterious, too-cool-to-care guy that nobody gets. Just like Sasuke in Nurutu, Matt in Digimon, etc...

I always wonder if the guys who are like that irl identify with these sorts of characters. The Grumps commented on that in one ep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRGzps8zD7A&list=UU9CuvdOVfMPvKCiwdGKL3cQ#t=8m35s

This guy's just like me, he totally gets me.

Hue Hue Hue Hue

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I wonder which characters currently in SSB have to too-cool-to-care attitude.

Snake, Wolf, Falco, Lucario, and Metaknight come to mind. Any others?

 

[lobotheduck21]

I wonder which characters currently in SSB have to too-cool-to-care attitude.

Snake, Wolf, Falco, Lucario, and Metaknight come to mind. Any others?

Yoshi, the guy just wanted a nap

 

[Diddy Kong]

Spoiler

Holy **** I suddenly love you now. Trust me, having someone say this outside of myself makes me happy.

Spoiler

I still think Lucas is not a clone.

I've been saying this for ages?

 

[Deleted member]

I wonder which characters currently in SSB have to too-cool-to-care attitude.

Snake, Wolf, Falco, Lucario, and Metaknight come to mind. Any others?

>Snake
>too-cool-to-care

No way dude, Snake is a manly, horny badass.

Also, Shadow's in Smash Bros you know...

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, Shadow's just that dark, mysterious, too-cool-to-care guy that nobody gets. Just like Sasuke in Nurutu, Matt in Digimon, etc...

Not after ShTH. After that, he became a Dark Hero. While the game sucked, he had his Badass moments in Sonic '06.
Shadow sincerly cares about things; he's just too prideful to outright show it (would that count as Tsundere, do you think?). And as of recent games, he regained some of the arrogance and cockiness he lost along with his memory. Making Vegeta a better comparison.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why Stickers are awesome:

 

[FalKoopa]

Tsundere? Sounds feminine... Not that I know much about it. >_>

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Tsundere? Sounds feminine... Not that I know much about it. >_>

IIRC it's a gender neutral term. Not sure though.

 

[Frostwraith]

Tsundere can apply to either gender, but it's more common in female characters. It could be defined as someone who is harsh outside, but actually nice inside. A typical phrase they're likely to say is when they help someone is along of these lines: "I am not here to help you. I am fighting alongside you because it benefits me as well."

Some Nintendo characters who have Tsundere personalities: Midna (The Legend of Zelda), Viridi and Dark Pit (Kid Icarus)

Certain Fire Emblem characters also qualify: a notable example is Lethe from Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Clair from Pokémon Gold / Silver is also one.

A common trait is that these characters by the end of the story end up being more soft around the protagonist than in the beginning, but not always.

Read more on TVTropes. It also has more examples besides the ones I gave.

 

[Deleted member]

Not after ShTH. After that, he became a Dark Hero. While the game sucked, he had his Badass moments in Sonic '06.
Shadow sincerly cares about things; he's just too prideful to outright show it (would that count as Tsundere, do you think?). And as of recent games, he regained some of the arrogance and cockiness he lost along with his memory. Making Vegeta a better comparison.

Shadow's definitely the Vegeta to Sonic's Goku. Also, what came first Super Sonic, or Super Saiyan? But his pride kinda makes him that sort of "too-cool-to-care archetype. Remember, Vegeta inspired the eventual Sasuke, who's the DEFINITION of the archetype.

[COLLAPSE="DARKNESS"]

[/COLLAPSE]

Tsundere? Sounds feminine... Not that I know much about it. >_>

IIRC it's a gender neutral term. Not sure though.

It is gender neutral:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

I think Kyon from Haruhi is a Tsundere. Someone made a joke of Adam Jensen in Deus Ex Machina HR, being a Tsundere with his "I never asked for this."

I wish I had the image, he goes "I-it's not like I asked for this or anything..." It's hilarious.

@Frost,

Aren't there TWO variations of the Tsundere archetype? The abusive *****, and the can't-cope-with-her-feelings?

 

[Deleted member]

Super Saiyans came first.
I believe it is said that Super Sonic was inspired by them, though I don't remember what source said it.

But no, I definitely wouldn't count Sasuke. Maybe pre-Shippuden Sasuke, but Shippuden Sasuke.....
is effing INSANE.

 

[3Bismyname]

super saiyan came first. only by like a year though

 

[Frostwraith]

@Frost,

Aren't there TWO variations of the Tsundere archetype? The abusive *****, and the can't-cope-with-her-feelings?

TVTropes states two variations, one who's mostly harsh, but soft inside; and another who's the reverse.

[COLLAPSE="Quote"]

Type A (alias Type Tsun or "harsh"): These Tsundere have tsuntsun as their default mood. It takes someone special to trigger their deredere side. The intensity of the tsuntsun can range from "I must glare and fight my way through life" (Louise of The Familiar of Zero) to grumpy pessimism (Kagami of Lucky Star). It's about which part of the tsundere personality is the public face and which the hidden. If the Tsundere is The Rival, she is more likely to be Type A. Helping a rival out is usually accompanied by a line like "Don't get me wrong, I'm not doing this for you."

Type A can overlap with a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, but usually not. The moods of a Tsundere tend to switch in reaction to the actions of select people or adverse scenarios; the deredere side usually only comes out when someone has acted in a way to trigger it. A Jerk with a Heart of Gold is jerkish in general regardless of whether the other person is mean or nice, and shows their Hidden Heart of Gold only when the situation warrants, regardless of how the other person had been acting. Male characters in particular should be considered for Jerk with a Heart of Gold status, as arguably because of Double Standards, men are generally that instead of tsundere, although the kuudere subtype is more equally split in gender. Oranyan is sometimes used to refer to a male tsundere character - incorrectly since it means the complete opposite.

• Type B (alias Type Dere or "sweet"): These Tsundere have deredere as their default mood. They are sweet, kind and generous, but just happen to have a hidden violent side as well. In this case, temper is almost always triggered by someone or something else, usually a Love Interest. Either they have Belligerent Sexual Tension, or are an idiot, or are an Accidental Pervert, or just has no idea how to handle feelings of love and attraction. May also overlap with Violently Protective Girlfriend if her Love Interest is threatened or in danger.

Type B should not be confused with a Yandere. If a Type B Tsundere were really convinced that their Love Interest didn't want them, they would revert back to the deredere side and probably enter an I Want My Beloved to Be Happy phase.

[/COLLAPSE]