Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[meleebrawler]

There's almost always some risk pulling a Mechakoopa if Jr. isn't compromised because he
can catch you fairly easily with kart, and back off fairly easily if you don't. Deploying it backwards near
the ledge can create a trap for overeager attacks, as well letting him pick it up, though it isn't very flexible
compared to other items due to it's timer.

His smashes can all kill Rosalina pretty well, but the main two to watch out for are his Fsmash,
which is a good Luma killer if spaced well, and potentially catching Rosa's recovery aimed down, as well
as his down smash which comes out fast enough to punish things if not spaced well.

He's generally out-ranged on the ground outside of the punishable Fsmash, but ftilt can let him poke Luma
with relative safety. In an air battle Jr. can challenge Rosa's aerials fairly well with his disjointed Fair, and
his Uair is swift enough to cause problems in spite of it's low vertical reach.

One should always be mindful of his Up B when juggling him. If he misses, he can still
retreat to the ledge or dodge. It's also another threat if Rosa recovers low.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i know that jr has two projectiles that aren't incredibly fast, this cna be used as down b bait, so i reccoemd you guys to forget that move exists f he sin't very far away, sheild isntead.

also, i feel like jr owns rosalina when she's offstage. i guess it's to compensate how it's he reverse onstage...

Real talk, what is Bowser Jr.'s actual game plan?

That aside the cannonball is worthless because we can GPull it on reaction (seriously that ****'s slow) although the piercing cannonball custom is faster and barrels through Luma, so in a customs-legal environment that's something to watch for. The kart has super armor and I'm not sure we have anything to beat it outright. GPulling the Mechakoopa converts it to our side even if we don't pick it up afterward, but again he has a custom to mess with us on that front: Impatient Mechakoopa, which detonates so fast it's basically impossible to do anything other than shield.

He can eject from the clown car and go for hammer hits if we're above him so that's a new wrinkle in the "don't get juggled" plan. However he doesn't automatically get a new car when hit afterward, so gimping is potentially easier than usual. Kart to jump to aerial shenanigans are also tricky, like Sonic's spindash.

As a final note, Bowser Jr. has a unique mechanic where he takes less damage if you hit the clown car and more damage if you hit him directly. So something like SH nair or throw > fair will do more damage than usual.

I want to say we have a slight advantage, 60:40.

(Also how the hell does Wendy stop those bracelets from falling off her arms?)

bowser jr was that unfortunate character that the devs wanted to have a bit of everyhting meaning he is lackluster at everyhting, besides edgeguarding and recovery, he's ok at whatever you want to do with him. and he gets owned by anyone who specializes in defensive play, camping, and rushdown; as well as beign one of the character sthat needs to consider heavies as legit threats all the time }(unlike, say, shiek, who could barrel through them cause they are too slow). so his big plan is to "be unpredictable"

as i said before the cannonball can be used as down-b bait, which can give jr a second to approach/get back/summon mk.

 

[meleebrawler]

While I can't see Jr. vs. Rosalina as anything better than even, just the mere
fact that Jr. can provoke reactions with his mechakoopa instead of just trying
to breach Rosa's hitboxes makes it better.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While I can't see Jr. vs. Rosalina as anything better than even, just the mere
fact that Jr. can provoke reactions with his mechakoopa instead of just trying
to breach Rosa's hitboxes makes it better.

Am I to assume that you're going 50:50 with the match-up?

 

[meleebrawler]

That's the ideal. Rosa seems to be at her best when the opponent has to approach
her in neutral and she can just deflect them with long hitboxes. Jr. suffers from this
on the ground, but he can distract her with Mechakoopas, either walking or thrown.
Cannon is too slow to even be used as bait, it's mainly used in the air to cover
jumps after using Mechakoopa. Air battles are more palatable for Jr. since
he has a comparable disjoint with Fair, and swifter aerials in general.

I forget: how does a walking Mechakoopa interact with Luma?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I forget: how does a walking Mechakoopa interact with Luma?

IIRC it doesn't unless it happens to be next to it when it explodes. (But someone check me on that.)

 

[Zonderion]

I don't feel that the mechas are even a big deal. Frankly, they give us a projectile if we pick up, it grav pull and pick up. Rosalina's spacing options give her the advantage. Nair over jr's kart will allow Luma to hit his soft body for more damage. Cannon ball becomes useless. Jr can be juggled, but anticipate his up B and his kart to get away from you. His grab game is already garbage, but more so against Rosalina and Luma.

His tilts come out fairly quick and watch for the disjointed hitboxes with his aerials. His down smash and forward smash can kill Luma if your spacing isn't spot on. He can be tough to kill, so the fight tends to drag on, which can be bad for Rosalina. A good read with back air or fsmash will kill Rosa fairly early.

Overall, I give this 60:40.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't feel that the mechas are even a big deal. Frankly, they give us a projectile if we pick up, it grav pull and pick up. Rosalina's spacing options give her the advantage. Nair over jr's kart will allow Luma to hit his soft body for more damage. Cannon ball becomes useless. Jr can be juggled, but anticipate his up B and his kart to get away from you. His grab game is already garbage, but more so against Rosalina and Luma.

His tilts come out fairly quick and watch for the disjointed hitboxes with his aerials. His down smash and forward smash can kill Luma if your spacing isn't spot on. He can be tough to kill, so the fight tends to drag on, which can be bad for Rosalina. A good read with back air or fsmash will kill Rosa fairly early.

Overall, I give this 60:40.

Jr. can easily catch you trying to do ANYTHING with an approaching koopa
thanks to his kart dash, especially a pull. He won't make it easy to take advantage of.
Heck, he'll just start throwing koopas himself if he feels you're catching too many.
To say nothing of the mind games he can pull by jumping it early, or dumping an exploding
ship on your head for shielding. And, unless you stop it or jump it, Luma's always getting
hit by it.

Nair might bop Jr. on the head easily, but if you don't aim it just right
Jr. will probably bat you away with his much quicker Uair. On the opposite end,
juggling him usually results in less damage hitting his car.

Cannon ball is almost always useless, so no big loss for him there.

He may not get much from grabs, but that means he also doesn't suffer as much from
Luma interrupts.

 

[Zonderion]

Jr. can easily catch you trying to do ANYTHING with an approaching koopa
thanks to his kart dash, especially a pull. He won't make it easy to take advantage of.
Heck, he'll just start throwing koopas himself if he feels you're catching too many.
To say nothing of the mind games he can pull by jumping it early, or dumping an exploding
ship on your head for shielding. And, unless you stop it or jump it, Luma's always getting
hit by it.

Nair might bop Jr. on the head easily, but if you don't aim it just right
Jr. will probably bat you away with his much quicker Uair. On the opposite end,
juggling him usually results in less damage hitting his car.

Cannon ball is almost always useless, so no big loss for him there.

He may not get much from grabs, but that means he also doesn't suffer as much from
Luma interrupts.

Depending on how Jr is playing, Rosalina may need to play more aggressively. This eliminates him abusing the mechas as an item because a quick dash attack can pick up the mecha and hit Jr. Because of his lack luster grab game, it makes shielding a better option.

Can he up air straight out of kart? Or does he have to jump out of kart first?

True in the less damage on juggling, which contributes to the longer match.

A well timed up tilt or smash can eliminate jr's aerial approaches and jabs and ftilt/dtilt can hinder his ground approaches. Surprise kart dashes to immediate up special hammers can do good damage against Rosalina, so watch out for those.

 

[meleebrawler]

Depending on how Jr is playing, Rosalina may need to play more aggressively. This eliminates him abusing the mechas as an item because a quick dash attack can pick up the mecha and hit Jr. Because of his lack luster grab game, it makes shielding a better option.

Can he up air straight out of kart? Or does he have to jump out of kart first?

True in the less damage on juggling, which contributes to the longer match.

A well timed up tilt or smash can eliminate jr's aerial approaches and jabs and ftilt/dtilt can hinder his ground approaches. Surprise kart dashes to immediate up special hammers can do good damage against Rosalina, so watch out for those.

So you meant trying to Nair Jr. in the middle of a dash? He could just stop if he sees it.
Yes, he does need to jump out before uairing, but there's very little down time on the jump.
It's how the "drive to up b" mixup works.

By getting Rosalina to play more aggressively, he increases the chances of being able
to punish and get hits in, rather than trying to breach a patient Rosa. And her dash attack
is more punishable than it looks, plus it's not too hard to see it coming since she has to get
in a dash first. Not to mention Jr. will just deploy the koopas backwards or on platforms if he
feels like picking them up, which also doubles as a way to make enemy run-ins riskier.

 

[9Tales]

I actually agree this one is 50:50 and I think this perfectly summarize why entirely.

By getting Rosalina to play more aggressively, he increases the chances of being able to punish and get hits in, rather than trying to breach a patient Rosa.

Bowser Jr. and Rosalina are both “patient” characters by nature. They play defensively and are inclined to work by reacting to their opponent’s moves. However Bowser Jr. is given more disruptive and ranged tools and in the end he pushes Rosalina out of her comfort zone and into a more aggressive role. Bowser Jr. has more freedom to be patient as he can wait for Rosalina to slip up with handling his mechkoops while Rosalina has to make approaches.

In spite of this Roslaina has better tools overall. She’s dealing with a lot less lag and moves that require significantly less set up to use. (much less start up time on smashes, Luma, etc) I also don’t think Bowser Jr. has some large edge over her in the air. As all her air attack continue to space really really well. His Unique Up B can be pretty crazy at times though (albeit it’s too is inherently more risky than the stuff Rosalina has to do)

I also don’t consider Bowser Jr. to be the best Luma killer around. Partially because he’s not very directly aggressive himself. It’s basically just his dash attack, clown car and aggression near the edge. Lots of short hops keep Luma relatively safe.

That said whenever I play against Bowser Jr. I always feel like control is in his hands to begin with and it’s my job to take back control with successful offense.

(and @ meleebrawler while Gravity isn't a cure-all for mechkoops you shouldn't discredit it either as it makes them easier to deal with than they otherwise would be, giving Rosalina one more option and one Jr. has to take into account too. The point is to recognize how they are being used to disrupt and generate openings and then make sure that your use of Gravity doesn't generate the same openings, albeit that can be difficult as Bowser Jr. is free to do whatever he pleases while they walk around unlike most projectiles that go through their full trajectory before their user can make significant moves.)

 

[Zonderion]

So you meant trying to Nair Jr. in the middle of a dash? He could just stop if he sees it.
Yes, he does need to jump out before uairing, but there's very little down time on the jump.
It's how the "drive to up b" mixup works.

By getting Rosalina to play more aggressively, he increases the chances of being able
to punish and get hits in, rather than trying to breach a patient Rosa. And her dash attack
is more punishable than it looks, plus it's not too hard to see it coming since she has to get
in a dash first. Not to mention Jr. will just deploy the koopas backwards or on platforms if he
feels like picking them up, which also doubles as a way to make enemy run-ins riskier.

All good points. Luma comes out pretty fast on Nair, not something he can react too. He would have to anticipate it, but even still she has so many lingering hitboxes and it auto cancels, which makes it difficult to punish.

I agree that if Rosalina plays all out aggressive, she will be punished, but she has to be more aggressive in this match up than others because of the stage control Jr has with his mechas. Switching up between offensive and defensive can give Jr a hard time.

 

[meleebrawler]

I never really said Jr. did better than Rosa in the air, just that if he was
forced to go toe-to-toe with her he would prefer to be in the air where the range
disadvantage isn't as significant and has generally lesser commitment than Rosa there
outside of Dair, which admittedly is kind of booty in this match-up.

Gravity basically ensures that Jr. cannot ever simply let koopas walk towards her
without applying some additional form of pressure (usually kart). However, since anyone
can just pick them up with a at the right time (you won't see this too much in for glory),
Jr. is naturally inclined not to do that anyway. He can drive through reflected koopas if he expects
one, though Rosa is a special case.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dr. Mario's discussion period will begin tomorrow, but I should probably reveal the next set of fighters that we'll be analyzing after Dr. Mario.

• 1/24/2015 - 1/26/2015:
• 1/27/2015 - 1/29/2015:
• 1/30/2015 - 2/1/2015:
• 2/2/2015 - 2/4/2015:
• 2/5/2015 - 2/7/2015:

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Bowser Jr.'s discussion period is now over, and it's time to input the ratio average for Rosalina vs. Bowser Jr.. I put down meleebrawler as 50:50, since he said himself that he didn't see the match-up being better than even.

[55:45]

Rosalina has a slight advantage, based on the average.

Next up for discussion is Rosalina's match-up against Dr. Mario.

 

[Chuva]

70:30 for Rosalina. Dr Mario has the same flaws as Mario in this MU (being very vulnerable to Rosa's edgeguard/juggles and getting outranged in many scenarios), but such flaws are accentuated because of Doc's much worse mobility and recovery.

However, just like Mario he has handy ways of dealing with Luma once he manages to get in and his KO power is notorious. Tornado is also very useful for gimping Launch Star and displacing Luma

 

[Luggy]

Bowser Jr.'s discussion period is now over, and it's time to input the ratio average for Rosalina vs. Bowser Jr.. I put down meleebrawler as 50:50, since he said himself that he didn't see the match-up being better than even.

[55:45]

Rosalina has a slight advantage, based on the average.

Next up for discussion is Rosalina's match-up against Dr. Mario.

Interresting choice, since Doc ain't played that much.
Let's analyse what can do against :

Spoiler

Advantages for Doc against Rosalina :
- Pills are still strong due to there weird angles. If my thoughts are right, they can bounce around Luma and can actually damage Rosalina. The pills also stops Luma's approaches.
- Like any defensive character that is slow, Doc has big K.O abilities. Since Rosalina is a floaty character, Doc doesn't struggle getting the K.O move to get a stock.
- The Doc'Tornado is a strong move and like Luigi has a lot of priority. It can seperate Rosalina from Luma easily, punish rolls and can edgeguard Rosalina when Doc has the occasion. It's not as aggressive as the Tornado of Luigi, but it's still a move to fear for Rosalina who doesn't want to seperate herself from Luma.
- Doc can cape the recovery of Rosalina. It's pretty rare since Doc doesn't like to go offstage for edgeguarding, but if the opportunity is there, a good Doc player will go for it. It's like Mario, but less common.
- Doc can overall hold himself right against Rosalina since he's a defensive character.

Disavantages for Doc against Rosalina :
- Doc's pressure is not as strong as other characters with Rosalina. Since Luma will most likely eat the pills up, Rosalina is still pretty safe to approach the good doctor.
- Rosalina can gimp Doc's recovery easily while not putting herself in danger unlike Doc. This means that Doc is easy to spike with a well timed Dair. Watch out though, Doc has still two tricks up his sleeves to recover. First of all, Doc can cape the ledge to recover a bit faster, wich means that he can grab the ledge safely, without getting hit. And second of all, Doc's tornado has a lot of priority. In fact, it has as much priority as the Luigi one.
So watch out, Doc is easy to gimp, but still has some tricks to pull himself back on the stage.
- Doc isn't mobile and is weak to fast attacks and grabs.
- Doc is pretty much in the same position as Mario in this matchup, but can either be worse or better depending the player. But most of the time, it will be worse.

So overall, I'll say it's a 65:35. Rosalina has a clear advantage over Doc, but Doc can still won if the Doc player is good.

 

[Macchiato]

Rosie vs Doc

The Neutral
They both have their advantages. Doc can easily separate luma with a Bthrow or dr. Tornado. Dr. Tornado is better than luigi cyclone in this MU because it sends opponents outward which can get luma offstage the first time it hits. But Rosie easily outranges him with nair. Walls of jabs also keep him out. Luckily for doc, he has great OOS options. His SJP is great and could kill at 100%. He has a great Bair for zoning too which can help. Doc has great dthrow combos and utilt chains. They can rack up percent but Rosie also has her combos too. Overall I think Rosie has an advantage in neutral do to her range and disjointed
K.O.s
Doc has an advantage. If Rosie is on the ledge and you read a getup attack or normal getup. A sweetspotted uncharged Fsmash can kill her at 50% due to her lightweight. Near the center it kills hers around 65%. Dsmash and Usmash kills around 90%. It's best to play on FD since platforms could help Rosie kill. Luna's Uair could kill at 50% and a uair kills possible at 70% on platforms. Her smashes kill around 90% so Doc has the edge here. Also docs pills could annoy her since they bounce over Luma.
Edgeguarding
Rosie wins because of docs valnurability. A simple dair could finish him or a Nair. Without a double jump doc is dead. Doc can also gimp her. His dr. Tornado can kill offstage because it knocks her outward and could get an early gimp. Keep in mind that doc can cape her. Just because how easy he's gimp, Rosie edgeguards better.
Stages
As a doc main, you want to go to battlefield or town&city due to the platforms. Ban battlefield. These stages will help Rosies kill percent.
Overall
I think that doc does better than mario In this MU but rosies want to space and go for gimps in this MU. Rosie still has a advantage
Score
5.5-4.5

 

[Anomilus]

Hey guys, I'm watching this closely. I'd like to add my own, but I don't have enough match-up experience myself. While I have been playing a whole lot of Doc, my Rosa play's waned considerably so I can't really theorize either.

I'm just hoping you guys keep one VERY important thing in mind: Dr. Mario and Mario have practically the same frame data, but their other attributes are different enough that they're each played VERY differently. Don't just go and call a number based on what Mario can do, because Doc could very well handle a situation differently.

 

[Kisatamura]

Most of what has been said about Doc's Tornado is true: it'll hit both Rosalina and Luma though Rosalina should be able to play the range game better than Doc. UpB can also hit Luma as well.

It might be good to look at what Mario can do in this matchup compared to Dr. Mario. As far as I know, Rosalina's Luma Shot should be able to stop Doc from throwing pills if Luma lands near Doc. If anything, Rosalina should just zone Doc and outplay him more than Doc can with his pills.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm just hoping you guys keep one VERY important thing in mind: Dr. Mario and Mario have practically the same frame data, but their other attributes are different enough that they're each played VERY differently. Don't just go and call a number based on what Mario can do, because Doc could very well handle a situation differently.

Sage advice here.

That said, Doc does has to handle this differently than Mario does. For one thing, Doc is capable of outcamping Rosie thanks to the bounce height of pills and being able to easily destroy Luma with spaced B-airs, which is easy to connect with due to his low short jump height, and pills damaging Luma as well. U-Smash also rockets Luma away leaving Rosie vulnerable, and as stated before, B-Throw and Doc Tornado are both good at taking out Luma. Doc is a character you have to be really patient with and holds true here as well.

Furthermore, once Doc gets inside he can tack on damage pretty quickly. While he's not very good at chasing opponents (DIing away from him is always a good idea), he is able to freely use his strong moves unlike Mario who only really has U-Smash and F-Smash as early kill moves. Doc will use U-Smash a lot increase damage and is the main reason why he can keep up in the damage percentage. U-air sends his opponents horizontally, enabling him to set up for more pressure more easily (and he will likely attempt to use U-Smash). 65% is when you should worry about F-Smash, but the big trouble happens around higher percentages when Doc is able to kill Rosie off-stage with B-air or Doc Tornado. From my testing, Doc Tornado is capable of killing Rosie off-stage on FD at ~61% (DI not included), this means Doc will definitely kill with a Tornado edgeguard at higher percentages. Doc's D-air is also a very strong edge-guard tool though it can be beat out by Rosie's aerials. Of course, Doc can cape as well. Doc preferably doesn't go deep off-stage but he has a good amount of tools (dare I say even more effective ones than Mario) to edgeguard with, and is only held back by his abysmal aerial speed.

Luma Shot is okay vs Doc. Since pills are able to bounce over Luma, it is possible to hit him or get close with it, then make Luma attack Doc. If the pill hits though, Luma is open city for Doc and her only defense is Star bits which is beaten by more pills, and then Doc can use Nado to cover himself from Rosalina since she has to respect that without Luma, while he sends Luma flying. Of course, this'll leave him vulnerable to get grabbed, so it doesn't come without it's cost.

What stops Doc dead in his tracks this MU is Rosie's spacing on everything. Nado won't help vs Rosie's U-air and U-tilt juggles, and N-air with Luma is pretty difficult to get around for him. F-air off-stage is good at blocking Doc's edgeguards and finally, Rosie's D-tilt is a major pain since it is capable of beating out Nado, thanks to it being two hits (should hold true for Luigi's Cyclone as well). Ultimately, Doc shares the same problems with this MU as Mario, except Doc is better at camping and is capable of killing Rosie even earlier.

However, the most important aspect of this is the neutral game, and if Doc can't get in to pressure Rosalina, all of that KO power doesn't really matter. Doc has an extremely difficult time getting any damage in with the exception of Pill camping, and Doc doesn't have the speed to stay in Rosalina's personal space. Doc does not want constantly fighting the neutral game vs Rosie but there's not really anything he can do about that.

Being easy to D-air gimp doesn't help either.

Since I know the comparison will come up, Mario is preferable for this MU due to speed and pressure. Mario is able to stay in and pressure Rosalina through juggling her and beating out her weakspots, and Luma isn't a huge deal with Mario because of D-air and B-throw. Rosalina being light also negates Doc's KO advantages as Mario can kill Rosie with U-Smash, B-throw, F-Smash, and D-Smash. Mario's fireballs are also better for this since Mario has the higher jump and can fireball over Luma, while avoiding punishment.

Example Vid with Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJPL8MgnQfo#t=75
Example Vid with Doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyq_SMzStws#t=320

In the end, Doc's advantages are not better than Mario's advantages. In fact if I could I would re-write what I said about Mario vs Rosie and make it 55:45 Rosie or even 50:50 instead.

But we're dealing with Doc here. I'll chalk it to 65:35 Rosalina.

 

[Macchiato]

^^ I think you mean 6:4, this is Rosalina's MU thread, not Doc's.

Anyway I'm watching this closely. I'd like to add my own, but I don't have enough match-up experience myself. While I have been playing a whole lot of Doc, my Rosa play's waned considerably so I can't really theorize either.

I'm just hoping you guys keep one VERY important thing in mind: Dr. Mario and Mario have practically the same frame data, but their other attributes are different enough that they're each played VERY differently. Don't just go and call a number based on what Mario can do, because Doc could very well handle a situation differently.

Yes but doc does better than mario in this MU. The tornado and Extra kill power help him have more options than Mario. But I think it favors Rosie 5.5-4.5

 

[Luggy]

Sage advice here.

That said, Doc does has to handle this differently than Mario does. For one thing, Doc is capable of outcamping Rosie thanks to the bounce height of pills and being able to easily destroy Luma with spaced B-airs, which is easy to connect with due to his low short jump height, and pills damaging Luma as well. U-Smash also rockets Luma away leaving Rosie vulnerable, and as stated before, B-Throw and Doc Tornado are both good at taking out Luma. Doc is a character you have to be really patient with and holds true here as well.

Furthermore, once Doc gets inside he can tack on damage pretty quickly. While he's not very good at chasing opponents (DIing away from him is always a good idea), he is able to freely use his strong moves unlike Mario who only really has U-Smash and F-Smash as early kill moves. Doc will use U-Smash a lot increase damage and is the main reason why he can keep up in the damage percentage. U-air sends his opponents horizontally, enabling him to set up for more pressure more easily (and he will likely attempt to use U-Smash). 65% is when you should worry about F-Smash, but the big trouble happens around higher percentages when Doc is able to kill Rosie off-stage with B-air or Doc Tornado. From my testing, Doc Tornado is capable of killing Rosie off-stage on FD at ~61% (DI not included), this means Doc will definitely kill with a Tornado edgeguard at higher percentages. Doc's D-air is also a very strong edge-guard tool though it can be beat out by Rosie's aerials. Of course, Doc can cape as well. Doc preferably doesn't go deep off-stage but he has a good amount of tools (dare I say even more effective ones than Mario) to edgeguard with, and is only held back by his abysmal aerial speed.

Luma Shot is okay vs Doc. Since pills are able to bounce over Luma, it is possible to hit him or get close with it, then make Luma attack Doc. If the pill hits though, Luma is open city for Doc and her only defense is Star bits which is beaten by more pills, and then Doc can use Nado to cover himself from Rosalina since she has to respect that without Luma, while he sends Luma flying. Of course, this'll leave him vulnerable to get grabbed, so it doesn't come without it's cost.

What stops Doc dead in his tracks this MU is Rosie's spacing on everything. Nado won't help vs Rosie's U-air and U-tilt juggles, and N-air with Luma is pretty difficult to get around for him. F-air off-stage is good at blocking Doc's edgeguards and finally, Rosie's D-tilt is a major pain since it is capable of beating out Nado, thanks to it being two hits (should hold true for Luigi's Cyclone as well). Ultimately, Doc shares the same problems with this MU as Mario, except Doc is better at camping and is capable of killing Rosie even earlier.

However, the most important aspect of this is the neutral game, and if Doc can't get in to pressure Rosalina, all of that KO power doesn't really matter. Doc has an extremely difficult time getting any damage in with the exception of Pill camping, and Doc doesn't have the speed to stay in Rosalina's personal space. Doc does not want constantly fighting the neutral game vs Rosie but there's not really anything he can do about that.

Being easy to D-air gimp doesn't help either.

Since I know the comparison will come up, Mario is preferable for this MU due to speed and pressure. Mario is able to stay in and pressure Rosalina through juggling her and beating out her weakspots, and Luma isn't a huge deal with Mario because of D-air and B-throw. Rosalina being light also negates Doc's KO advantages as Mario can kill Rosie with U-Smash, B-throw, F-Smash, and D-Smash. Mario's fireballs are also better for this since Mario has the higher jump and can fireball over Luma, while avoiding punishment.

Example Vid with Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJPL8MgnQfo#t=75
Example Vid with Doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyq_SMzStws#t=320

In the end, Doc's advantages are not better than Mario's advantages. In fact if I could I would re-write what I said about Mario vs Rosie and make it 55:45 Rosie or even 50:50 instead.

But we're dealing with Doc here. I'll chalk it to 65:35 Rosalina.

You summed it up perfectly ! Seriously, I could not have said more.

 

[warionumbah2]

Yes but doc does better than mario in this MU. The tornado and Extra kill power help him have more options than Mario. But I think it favors Rosie 5.5-4.5

Why does Doc do better? Legitimate reasons would be nice one move that has little to no horizontal reach won't make a difference, There's even a video of most probably best Mario player barely snag a win due to a cape gimp, Anti switched because he knew the MU was horrible and the cape wasn't going to gimp her again. Secondary IS vital against her because unless you're outright better than the Rosa main you probably won't win this.

His mobility hurts him a lot, it makes spacing so much easier for her, she wins the neutral because pills can get power shielded or GP and if you try to run at her with his speed she can punish you with Luma or grab. Her tilts out range all your ground moves, the chances of you grabbing Rosa with Luma is close to 0 so back throw isn't really that big of a deal.

She can run away and wait for Luma to return while you struggle to catch her. This MU is worse or just as bad as Mario 65:35 or 60:40.

50:50? that's stretching waaaaaay too much.

 

[9Tales]

My perception is that Dr. Mario should have an incrementally better match up vs. Rosalina than Mario. (Even though the current pop opinion is that Mario is better overall)

Dr. is the “slower” hard hitting version where as Regs Mario is the “lighter”, easier air game, more combo-rific version. But since neither really has the upperhand it’s better to get more out of your punishes and Rosa’s slip ups than it is to have nice air game where you’re gonna be getting out spaced all the time anyway. Also Dr. Tornado is a pretty big plus for its ability to break into and KO Luma.

60:40

 

[meleebrawler]

Doc capitalizes better on mistakes with moves like Super Jump Punch and tornado. He can't blitz like Mario,
so he needs to be patient with pills. Like Bowser Jr., Doc has the advantage of being able to goad
Rosalina out of being defensive in neutral, but unlike him he can't really threaten with anything
else alongside it. If Rosa can keep her cool in the face of pill pressure, then things will get fairly
difficult for Doc. Thankfully though, most of his moves are just as blindingly fast as Mario's
so he can still be threatening up close.

Basically what @ 9Tales said. Though having a decent projectile against Rosa really
is a boon despite what Gravitational Pull might lead you to think.

 

[Kisatamura]

My perception is that Dr. Mario should have an incrementally better match up vs. Rosalina than Mario. (Even though the current pop opinion is that Mario is better overall)

Dr. is the “slower” hard hitting version where as Regs Mario is the “lighter”, easier air game, more combo-rific version. But since neither really has the upperhand it’s better to get more out of your punishes and Rosa’s slip ups than it is to have nice air game where you’re gonna be getting out spaced all the time anyway. Also Dr. Tornado is a pretty big plus for its ability to break into and KO Luma.

60:40

I'd prefer Tornado to kill and separate Luma, since it makes approaching easier for Doc since Mario just has to find his way in.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Macchiato : I've put you down as 55:45, as that's the equivalent to the 5.5:4.5 ratio that you've inputted.

 

[HeroMystic]

Why does Doc do better? Legitimate reasons would be nice one move that has little to no horizontal reach won't make a difference, There's even a video of most probably best Mario player barely snag a win due to a cape gimp, Anti switched because he knew the MU was horrible and the cape wasn't going to gimp her again. Secondary IS vital against her because unless you're outright better than the Rosa main you probably won't win this.

 

[warionumbah2]

Offline gameplay would be nice. Like the one i was talking about. Plus is money on the line for the online internationals? As i said he's most probably the best Mario player and a lot of what Mario does can't be transferred to Doc who cannot apply pressure as good as Mario. My thoughts on the MU remains unchanged.

EDIT: Cheers.

EDIT AGAIN: Online is Online it will never be as smooth as Offline play, using Mario as an example isn't a good idea since as you already know he's faster and can apply more pressure which messes with Rosalina's spacing ability. On that same international the Dr Mario match had input lag so i cannot trust online tournaments since lag spikes can and will mess you up. I'm not too fused since you know Rosa has the advantage in this MU so it looks like i'm nitpicking atm.

 

[HeroMystic]

1st. $500
2nd. $150
3rd. $50

I'll give you that it's online, but this isn't Brawl Wi-Fi. The MU knowledge is still relevant.

 

[Anomilus]

Example Vid with Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJPL8MgnQfo#t=75
Example Vid with Doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyq_SMzStws#t=320

Now hold on here. The Mario video is an offline match while the Doc video is online. Not only that, I can definitely say Koolaid didn't exactly play optimally. Not to diss his Doc either by any means, but got a bit too aggressive at points trying to get in on a character everyone knows has priority you absolutely gotta respect.

Edit - Understand I'm not totally disregarding the video for being online, but we really ought to be wary. That and it still isn't fair to use two different environments in comparison.

 

[Macchiato]

The reason imo that doc is better in the MU is that he can kill significantly earlier. Approximately 30% and also since doc has a better projectile which bounces over Luma. He can camp her. Also the tornado just helps due to its priority and strong kb.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dr. Mario's discussion period will begin tomorrow, but I should probably reveal the next set of fighters that we'll be analyzing after Dr. Mario.

• 1/24/2015 - 1/26/2015:
• 1/27/2015 - 1/29/2015:
• 1/30/2015 - 2/1/2015:
• 2/2/2015 - 2/4/2015:
• 2/5/2015 - 2/7/2015:

You're doing this on purpose aren't?

 

[Chuva]

Doc is not like Mario (I play him very often) but his archetype's attributes are very similar, most notably in the neutral. Fast frame data, short limbs, average projectile, KO options usually dependent on reads etc. One of the things that makes Mario relevant in this MU is that his ground and specially his aerial mobility are key elements for getting in Rosa and starting his game: a luxury Doc doesn't have. Doc may have stronger punishes, but if you're struggling even more to get past things like Luma's FTilt, Jab1 or Rosa's BAir, it's not that much of a selling point.

It's kinda of the same reason why Marth and Lucina mains usually agree Doc loses the MU harder than Mario does. Mobility against characters with strong spacing is a huge aspect of the MU.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm at a smashfest so I'll make this quick.

I placed those videos to showcase that Doc's mobility is a large reason why he does not have an easy(er) time getting past Rosie's neutrals. Regardless of Doc's toolkit, its 100% proven that none of his neutrals can weave into Rosie's personal space except Nado under some circumstances. Doc's only real option is Pill camping.

Secondly, the reason why I added those videos is because it was said that Mario has a horrible MU vs Rosie. He doesn't.

If everyone wishes to disregard the videos, then that is fine. My points still stand regardless.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just so that people get the bigger picture, Dr. Mario is stronger than Mario, but he's much slower on foot, and his recovery is much worse as well; unlike Mario's Cape, Dr. Mario's Super Sheet does not give him the vertical height boost that he desperately needs. So while Dr. Mario may be able to send Rosalina flying sooner, his slower footwork makes it very hard for him to keep up with her. And Dr. Mario's weak recovery makes it quite difficult for him to fully recover without having to go below ledges, since if he's above a ledge, Rosalina will likely demolish him.

 

[Kisatamura]

Just so that people get the bigger picture, Dr. Mario is stronger than Mario, but he's much slower on foot, and his recovery is much worse as well; unlike Mario's Cape, Dr. Mario's Super Sheet does not give him the vertical height boost that he desperately needs. So while Dr. Mario may be able to send Rosalina flying sooner, his slower footwork makes it very hard for him to keep up with her. And Dr. Mario's weak recovery makes it quite difficult for him to fully recover without having to go below ledges, since if he's above a ledge, Rosalina will likely demolish him.

Looking at the videos HeroMystic posted, i would've recovered high with Doc to try to avoid Rosalina's Dair.

I don't know if Mario has the better advantage due to his mobility but I think both Marios require some good reading to get into Rosalina's personal space.

 

[9Tales]

It's kinda of the same reason why Marth and Lucina mains usually agree Doc loses the MU harder than Mario does. Mobility against characters with strong spacing is a huge aspect of the MU.

I think that's a really good way of phrasing the argument. I guess my feeling up til now has been that Mario's better mobility still didn't give him an edge on breaking into Rosalina's space, he's not like like Captain Falcon or Sonic or something (where 1/4th a second of jabless-ness = a dash grab or spinning blue rodent in your face) But I guess it would mean that he does still get more opportunities even if the ones he capitalizes on aren't as hard hitting. That tends to be the more weighted factor at higher and higher skill levels. I'd also agree Dr.'s overall recovering ability isn't quite as good.

Well, for now I'll keep my MU Ratio how it is. As it is I think Mario's current MU (62:38) is about right and that Dr. Mario's would be pretty close regardless of whether it's slightly better or worse. I'll prolly still be participating when the second round of evaluations comes along, and I imagine my opinion will be even more changed by then.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dr. Mario's discussion period is now over, so after looking at the ratios that have been inputted, here's the ratio average for Rosalina vs. Dr. Mario.

[63:37]

Rosalina wins the match-up.

Next up, we'll analyze Rosalina's match-up against Link.