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ROB Official Match-up Re-discusson #1: Toon Link

TheMike

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
1,860
Location
Brazil

Toon Link




We're now starting our Match-ups re-discissions and TL is the first one. Re-discuss it the way u want or follow a Match-up discussion structure:



ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Ratio:

Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.




GO!
 

Darth Waffles

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
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Orefield, PA
Powershielding is a must.

/post.

...
......
...seriously.

It's also a lot easier to hit with projectiles while avoiding his if you fire retreating lasers/gyros. Getting hit with 0-40+% of Zair/Bair/bomb strings sucks... so start powershielding and firing retreating projectiles some more lol.

Careful about trying to gimp TL. Bombs make things icky and TL can drop from a ledge, pull a bomb out, throw it up, and regrab the ledge, catching it shortly afterward.

If you really can't powershield or you need to approach, go for faster attacks like jab, staying in his face so you don't get Zair-ed. If you can sneak in an ftilt, that's great, but you don't want to stay in that range for long. You can catch or cancel out his projectiles with aerials of your own (fair can be nice). Don't ever fight a TL on Wifi... they'll make you feel much worse about the MU than it actually is lol. Bair is a nice way to create space or to fake an approach with since it should push you just out of grab range if it's shielded.

Kill moves to watch out for... Upair is annoying but avoidable, Fsmash can kill, Dair if you're not careful can kill, and the random aerial if you're at high enough percents/offstage. Running Upsmash can also kill, as can uptilt if you're at really high percents

I like Frigate (as I do with practically any other matchup) for the ledge-less....ledges.

In short: Powershield/avoid projectiles, don't get "ROB combo'd," and sneak in a few hits of your own.
 

Nova9000

Smash Lord
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
1,408
Location
NC/MD
I play TL very frequently in friendlies to I'll add what I have learned:

POWERSHIELD! If you cannot powershield you will have hell to pay playing him.

ROB's Advantages/Tl's disadvantages:
-ROB can outcamp TL, but not as effective as he can many other characters. The gyro offers relief to his projectiles.
-The laser however, can hit TL while he holds bombs and hit him like they would Snake's grenades.
-ROB can rack damage onhim as well and Ftilt is your best friend. In fact, what i do often is Ftilt->ftilt->ftilt->charged gyro.
-Also, Bair spaces well, especially when TL tries to Zair.
-TLs tend to try and recover vertically from under the stage or with the zair, so edgehog them when they try to tether and bair them into the stage when they recover under the stage.
-ROB can gimp TL, just like over half the cast.
-Staying long range allows you to attack TL but his longest moves (quickdraw and boomerang) won't touch you.
-GT is great when retreating.
-You can Usmash if you shield TL's Dair.

ROB's Disadvantages/TL's advantages:
-ROB is heavy so TL's Dair can hit you twice and combo into itself often.
-Bair chains are sometimes difficult to get out of with him (smash DI)
-TLs best killing move is Usmash. ROB has a bilnd spot under him.
-Although it shouldn't happen often, TL can Fair gimp ROB, especially if they know what they are doing.
-His tether can and will allow combos to start and keep ROB in the air with TL under him, which is always trouble. ROB has no real answer to it except shield.
-His Uair kills ROB due to the blind spot and the fact that both are floaty. And it also goes through air dodges due to it staying out very long.
-Mid range =no win for ROB. If TL can get into mid range, his entire arsenal is at his disposal:(
-Platforms. Bad for ROB.

-What ROB should try to do:
ROB should try to stay out of mid range unless he's using ftilt. Avoid the zair at all costs. when grabbing, try to throw down and bait their Dair then grab again. Offstage, try to prevent him from making it back to the stage by harassing him with fair, bair, and dair, as well as lasers and gyros. try to keep a gyro in front of you to eliminate arrows and running Usmash. if you can force him in th eair to approach, Our Fair beats everything he has except his nair and bair I believe. If you find yourself caught in close range, jab or Dtilt and space with bair. Gimps are going to result in most of the kills but using a combo of Nair and Bair while SH and full jumps unpredictablly gets kills very easy as well. Dair offstage works wonders as well.

-What TL should try to do:
TL wants to stay undser ROB as much as possible. he should also want to try and stay in mid range of him. Use boomerang to bait and react with a quickdraw or zair (abuse those as well). in the air, it is possible for TL to spike ROB simply because you can juggle with dair. Switch your recovery up and throw bombs while doing so. Also, believe it or not, standing still at long range helps; the shield blocks the gyro and unangled lasers. Use Uair as your most common kill move but Usmash if the opportunity is there.

Stages:
Neutrals that ROB prefers are FD. TL prefers BF and YI. SV is a toss up. FD allows no platforms and more space to camp at lkong range. BF is the opposite and plays into TL's mindgames and insane Uair. YI prohibits ROB going under the stage and the platform there hurts more than it helps. also the gyro is hard to pick up there and TL can Fair gimp easier there than any other neutral.

ROB's CPs are Japes and Frigate. Japes is better due to the high celing. It limits TL's options of killing to just Fsmash (smash DI) and Fair (Dsmash maybe?). plus, the way the platforms are we can totally take advantage of TL having to come to us. Frigate allows us to gimp on one half and when it flips over the dip in the stage allws us to control how TL comes to us. plsu throws are more effective at getting him off the stage. Mansion can also be good but I prefer those two.

TL's CPs are Delphino and Pirate ship. Water+Dair=gayness. Delphino also allows TL to shark airs and projectiles. Plus if ROB tries to shark and does it wrong, he can be at the wrong end of a Dair through the stage. Pirate ship has those quirky moments where the gayest things can happen to ROB. I think Norfair may be good as well for similar reasons to Delphino, plus tethers can alleviate the knockback if TL is sent flying.

All in all I would say 60:40 ROB.:chuckle: If you can't powershield however, I'll say even.:(
 

koing

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
43
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baltimore maryland
i fight radori (good *** tl)
but all i can say is we win in long range he ***** in close and mid so lots of lazors gyros and powershielding on our end if he gets to close sd => dsmash and f-tilts to get distance
and glide toss :]
i say even
or slightly in ROB's favor 55:45
 

Radori Nighthawk

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 18, 2009
Messages
162
Location
Baltimore, Maryland
i fight radori (good *** tl)
but all i can say is we win in long range he ***** in close and mid so lots of lazors gyros and powershielding on our end if he gets to close sd => dsmash and f-tilts to get distance
and glide toss :]
i say even
or slightly in ROB's favor 55:45
I'm not even that good. >_< Ok sure I'm MD/VA best TL but meh.
Thank you brother Koing for the input. :)

Powershielding if ALWAYS effective against us.....(MK's **** us with it)
Though for you all it doesn't seem like it would be much of a problem to us. Since you all don't have the running speed to keep us you'll just powershield us then we'll run away and continue our spam. Just at mid range. As long range, you all **** us. But at mid range you guys are a nice big target for our span. =D Our zair isn't that affective here but it's still something to keep an eye out for. Our zair I'm thinking is about the same range as your f-tilt. From my experience with you all, your down smash doesn't seem like a problem UNLESS it's spot dodge down smash. We are way too jumpy to really have to worry about that.

In tems of gimping us. It's possible just unlikely. We have options off stage.

As D~W pointed out. Don't get comboed. Our bair will eat you alive at low percents.

Our kill moves. Up Smash is our MAIN kill move. We also have up air, fair and even down smash around the 150 range. And up tilts if fresh can kill a bit after the up smash would.

Your kill moves....Nair is most likely your best kill move. Very nice hitbox ya guys got thar. Bair if fresh or for a revenge kill. Up Smash but I haven't died by that before. I don't really know about f-smash but maybe.

Now our projectiles. Your gyro is very fun. We can either A: shield it and it's gone. B: pick it up and use it against you all (at least try to anyway) or C: knock it away with one of our projectiles. Keep in mind that we don't have to use our projectile at long range to be effective. Since you all out camp us from afar we can go mid range which leads to some sick setups. I'll even share one of mine with you all. Bomerang to the face to bomb to the face to a running Shi'd nair. Can you say 25% to 40%? (If both hit of our nair land it'll to 30+) Arrow cancelling....isn't really something you all should have to worry about. As much as I love it. Though our SHDA (Short hop double arrow) does wonders on you all since R.O.B is a nice and big target. Powershield both arrows and punish. Nair to arrow cancel just ***** in general. If spaced perfectly your options are limited.

Your lazor....well I've started to shield it or even perfect shield it. I fight R.O.B SOO much that when I see him nove his head in the lazor position.....I'm thinking. OH SNAP LAZOR! So yeah. It's still a pain though.

Glide toss. Just awesome. It's too goodz.

Stages:

Wei'd ban FD on you all. I personally wouldn't since I love that stage.

Frigate is a good pick against us. Especially me. I HATE FRIGATE.

BF would be our counter is terms of neutrals. The platorms help us way more than they to you. Our projectiles do well there. Especially bmobs and bomerangs.

I'n conclusion I'm going to say that this match up is 50/50.
 

A~Kid/ToonethLinkage

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May 16, 2009
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In Toon-Town with Toon Link
This matchup is one of the most even matchups ever. Its so even it's ********. You camp us harder, we kill you better, we juggle you, we try to camp back, you countercamp us with your gay laser and Gyro. Very even match. I would suggest taking us to Final Destination as it would be retardedly easy to camp us. Definitely Ban Norfair, you would barely be able to camp there and we'll kill you easier there.

Use Lasers and Gyro a lot (like you never don't use them a lot >_>)

Watch out for our kill moves which are but not limited to
Usmash, Uair, Fair, Fsmash (semi safe on R.O.B.) and Utilt. Also be aware we can Bair juggle you cause you're floaty and heavy but you can Fair before the next Bair comes out so keep that in mind as every Toon Link loves them some Bair juggling.
 
Joined
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Messages
10,050
You camp us harder, we kill you better, we juggle you, we try to camp back, you countercamp us with your gay laser and Gyro.
Do ROBs really camp us harder? I haven't gone against any insane ROBs, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from the ROB experience I have, the Gyros and the lasers aren't huge obstacles. They're very effective, and they will keep us back, but they don't outcamp us. They're effective enough to keep us away from each other though. I sense that we'll be approaching each other.
 

Sudai

Stuff here
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TLink outcamps ROB hard. It's too easy for TLink to stay in the "medium range" (aka where his projectiles reach us but our non-projectiles don't reach you) and that's where you want to camp us from.
 

NeoBatou

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
955
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Fort Worth, TX
What I like about facing TL or even Link himself is the edgehogging experience.

If I Fsmash and he's flying out of the stage.....it's easier for ROB to really be effective.
In BF when they don't have a choice, they simply UpB to get on the top ledge or the bottom....using Mindgames to place them where you want them to be and UpSmashing is perfect. Not only that, using a fully charged Gyro or Laser is great against anybody, Teams or Singles.

Ftilt is a great way to play keep away again TL's Fsmash.

I never had any real problems with my ROB against TL....except for being in mid range because that's where TL gains advantage. Bombs, boomerangs and mid range BackA attacks really screw up ROB's ability to deal with TL in mid range.

Camping wise? It's a tossup...depends on your place on the map.
 

A2ZOMG

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A2ZOMG
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SW 8400 1713 9427
Question:

What can ROB do besides camping and crossups that doesn't get shieldgrabbed by TL?

Just asking.
 

Radori Nighthawk

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Mar 18, 2009
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Baltimore, Maryland
TLink outcamps ROB hard. It's too easy for TLink to stay in the "medium range" (aka where his projectiles reach us but our non-projectiles don't reach you) and that's where you want to camp us from.
@ Twink. So I'm not the only one who thinks this? I mean sure they are annoying but not THAT big of a deal.

Exactly. I can't stress enough how much TL ***** R.O.B at mid-range. So many setups....
 

GwJ

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Zair is predictable as ****, it's just hard to dodge because of all the **** he's throwing at us. Good thing it doesn't really do too much damage. Now if TL had Link's Zair, we'd have some trouble.
 

TheMike

Smash Lord
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I agree with TL's Zair being predictable... but he has other things to do against us =( He is fast, has quick attacks and can camp us like Sudai said some posts before. I would make a nice post about this MU, but probably everything that should be mentioned was.
 

Padô

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São Paulo, Brazil
Remembering that TL can abuse ROB in the air seriously.
His Uair got Range and some kind of crazy airdodge-punishing hitbox.

In terms of projectiles... I think ROBs are WAY better, his lasers explode bombs if TLs are holding one this is amazing, about the boomerang don't know anything about it and his arrows can combo with zair which comboes with nair hahahaha, but that's not a big deal since ROB got a good spotdodge.
 

TheMike

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Padô said:
In terms of projectiles... I think ROBs are WAY better
The laser is nice, but what abt the Gyro? If i'm not mistaken, TL can just avoid it with Crouch, not sure...

Padô said:
his lasers explode bombs if TLs are holding one this is amazing
Yep. t works th same way with Snake's nades =]

Padô said:
about the boomerang don't know anything about it and his arrows can combo with zair which comboes with nair hahahaha, but that's not a big deal since ROB got a good spotdodge.
Please, doesn't laugh at ROB's size =( I don't see spotdodging as really good solutution as we're big D:


Love u Padô!!
 

GwJ

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TLs don't dodge gyro's with crouches. That's leaves you vulnerable. They (power)shield it or airdodge. But the point is to fire it when it is most optimal, not just willy nilly.
 

TheMike

Smash Lord
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TLs don't dodge gyro's with crouches. That's leaves you vulnerable. They (power)shield it or airdodge. But the point is to fire it when it is most optimal, not just willy nilly.
Oh, my bad. Air Dodge to Zair would pobably be better for TL =]
 

-Pause-

Smash Rookie
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Oct 7, 2009
Messages
12
I used to play Toon Linkfor two yrs and I would think it is about an even matchup
 

6Mizu

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Dont throw bomb forward and gilde toss forward i think u no what happens.Also z-air is only for offensive use so its different than link's. also camping doesnt work for either rob or t ink but i would say its more in rob's favor for camping.
retreat gyro,laser and aerials ****.
 

Teh Future

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
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St. Louis, MO
TL has a sword. So basically recovering against him is IMPOSSIBLE. All of his arieals go through ours and we can't even cover ourselves with lazors and gyro cause he has moar spam than we do.

Not to mention once hes under us we are instantly dead since he has unlimited options with his zillions of projectiles and his upair kills (wtf broken I kno)

80-20 TLs favor.
 

Heavy Metal KiLLeR

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
37
TL can mix the zair up...It is great against ROB (not if it gets predicated)

He is such a big target, we can't camp him very hard, but he will be in bad times with our projectilles at middle range...

His advantage is the agility on ground atacks, and he can do nice things when TL is close.

Killing is even I think, cuz ROB is a little heavy.

so..the ratio would be 50 : 50 or 55 : 45 TL
 

TheMike

Smash Lord
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The Match-up is even, probably 55:45 for TL. Everything that should be mentioned, was. So, i think it's time to move on =D
 
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