Elaborate.
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ROB match up discussion
- Thread starter saviorslegacy
- Start date
Heartstring
Smash Legend
r.o.b is annoying if you cant aeruial juggle, and sheik doesnt really do much of that because her u-air isnt all that good
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
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No, no sir you are mistaken. The phrase should say "Rob is less annoying if you can juggle, and sheik juggles really well because her uair is so good." Sheik is insane at juggling and she juggles rob really hard. Its all about baiting robs slow aerials and punishing with our very good uair lol.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Yeah I have to agree, Uair is amazing. If you want to make fun of an aerial then make fun of Dair. lol
Heartstring
Smash Legend
well i know dair is even worse, however ive been told constantly by this board that u-air is over-rated and bad
but yes with r.o.b you actyualyl have to get him off the floor first, which can be a problem as the only time he does so is when youre doomed and he's going in for the kill, and hes doing it for the thrill, he hopes you understand and takes you by the hand (oh lyrics)
yeak ok, uair is a good mvoe i spose XD
but yes with r.o.b you actyualyl have to get him off the floor first, which can be a problem as the only time he does so is when youre doomed and he's going in for the kill, and hes doing it for the thrill, he hopes you understand and takes you by the hand (oh lyrics)
yeak ok, uair is a good mvoe i spose XD
He has so many stupid little traps with his laser, gyro, glidetoss, and his large range that put you into disadvantageous positions. He ***** Sheik pretty badly offstage imo because he has more ways than MK to take your double jump from you so a lot of times I was forced to just keep eating fairs while keeping my double jump in order to save my stock. Usually when I play characters that **** offstage I can just recover low to eliminate most of the problems but ROB can drop down and bair and its ggs.
It's hard to find time to charge needles against him because he can laser snipe you from almost anywhere and you dont have enough time to cancel the charge into a shield before the laser hits you.
His range on his ftilt and dtilt is comparable to Marths imo and is extremely gay.
*shrugs* I don't like the MU.
TBH a lot of times I just SH and right when they airdodge I use Sheiks explosive double jump and hit them with nair or bair more often than I use uair although I agree that uair is ****.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Yeah well not everyone on the Sheik boards see eye to eye.
Sheik has a frame 2 jab that can be canceled into a grab. Her throws are excellent juggle set ups. As long as you can avoid going into the air and letting Sheik get close enough to hit you then you have nothing to worry about.
@Mars
Yeah but Uair is better because it puts them back into the same situation. Bair/Fair or Nair will all knock them to the left or right and thus ending the juggle.
Sheik has a frame 2 jab that can be canceled into a grab. Her throws are excellent juggle set ups. As long as you can avoid going into the air and letting Sheik get close enough to hit you then you have nothing to worry about.
@Mars
Yeah but Uair is better because it puts them back into the same situation. Bair/Fair or Nair will all knock them to the left or right and thus ending the juggle.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
One of the Mr. E's... IDK which one. That and katakiri has used him some.
It isn't easy. I just said that Sheik has options that either set up for a juggle or eventually lead into a juggle. Almost everything can end in a grab. ie Nair, Bair, Fair, u-tilt (at low %'s), f-tilt and most importantly, jab. I just named her spacing moves and her ground combo breaker/interrupter.
My point was, it is impossible to avoid a juggling situation.
I have to agree though. That laser is mad annoying. You literately have to be climbing down ROB's throat the entire match, period.
It isn't easy. I just said that Sheik has options that either set up for a juggle or eventually lead into a juggle. Almost everything can end in a grab. ie Nair, Bair, Fair, u-tilt (at low %'s), f-tilt and most importantly, jab. I just named her spacing moves and her ground combo breaker/interrupter.
My point was, it is impossible to avoid a juggling situation.
I have to agree though. That laser is mad annoying. You literately have to be climbing down ROB's throat the entire match, period.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Really? Lazer is pretty telegraphed. Not saying that it's hard... but man, after getting hit by SiL's lazer and gyro a ton, you learn the timing. I play the MU slower than I do most of the time because you have to anticipate ftilt, dair, fair and etc. Once R.O.B. gets Sheik offstage it should be GG's, honestly unless you play really really smart.
I think fair is his most dangerous aerial against us. Bair's cool because it has that delay and pushback on sheild, as does Nair. I've run into plenty of RAR bairs and nairs. Gyro disappears on sheild, but I know Sil likes to just have one sit out as a mini wall. You don't really want to get close to sheild it (if it's just sitting there), you defi don't want to jump over it, so you have to decide what to do on the spot. His glide toss is good and I've seen R.O.B's do a lot of cool things out of it (Or maybe it's just Sil, who is considered the best with R.O.B.'s top).
I play the MU a lot more grounded than usual, though while I know what to expect, I still lose the MU pretty regularly. I got two-stocked by SiL last time we played, lol.
I think fair is his most dangerous aerial against us. Bair's cool because it has that delay and pushback on sheild, as does Nair. I've run into plenty of RAR bairs and nairs. Gyro disappears on sheild, but I know Sil likes to just have one sit out as a mini wall. You don't really want to get close to sheild it (if it's just sitting there), you defi don't want to jump over it, so you have to decide what to do on the spot. His glide toss is good and I've seen R.O.B's do a lot of cool things out of it (Or maybe it's just Sil, who is considered the best with R.O.B.'s top).
I play the MU a lot more grounded than usual, though while I know what to expect, I still lose the MU pretty regularly. I got two-stocked by SiL last time we played, lol.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
sil is a top r.o.b, however theres a big debate about who the best r.o.b in general is...i say big debate, its just that no-ones really sure anymore XD
but his gyro shenanigans are insane because he can control how far he slides (although for me success is actually jsut donig the glide toss correctly lol) and use various setups from it
but his gyro shenanigans are insane because he can control how far he slides (although for me success is actually jsut donig the glide toss correctly lol) and use various setups from it
Judo777
Smash Master
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You played Mr E. Hes from ohio i believe. Mr Eric is the Rob from kentucky and Im convinced he is one of the best in the nation. He is very good and I play him alot and typically come out on top although I would never ever say that it isn't close cause it always is. Rob's gyro traps and laser shenanigans are tricky but all of robs stuff bar a few moves are very telegraphed as Juu said. Lasers shouldnt be a big deal because im fairly sure you can stop charging needles to block them you just goota watch for it.
Saviours is right jab is very good and sets up into grab which gets him in the air. That is a big part of the MU. He really can hurt us offstage no doubt but i think its honestly not as bad as MK offstage. We have a few options to contend with him in the air. Firstly if you can hit him with needles as hes coming out this can very well save you because his bair has a completely different spacing than his fair and if the needles turn him around you might be saved. We also have the option of using needles to turn around and try throwing out bairs while recovering which might stuff him out of fair r at least hit him if he miss times a fair since our jump is fast.
The best news about his gimp game is unlike MK and a few others we can space it so 1 of 2 things happen. Firstly i recommend recovering above stage level unless he has a top ready. Then space it so that either you can tether the ledge or up b early. Unlike MK rob cant shuttle loops us and put us right back offstage if we vanish early and infact if hes facing forward for fair Rob cant easily bair us either. Probably the biggest flaw with robs bair is also its strength, the fwd movement. It make bair safer but it also prevent him from really going and hitting someone with it. How often to see see robs run up and punish something with bair? almost never simply because of the geometry of the move. SO if we vanish early rob cant just jump backwards and bair us because bair moves him away from us. This is ofc spacing dependant but even bair isn't that bad.
Most importantly ZELDA FOR KILLS seriously guys lol
If we find the chance to transform, then yeah. But against anyone besides the grab-releasers and the easily gimped, this should be universal advice, right? Just KO upward so you can have time to crossdress again. x.x
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Which would those be? I'm still bad at remembering all of Sheik's B moves, so my Zeldy knowledge is poor.
Judo777
Smash Master
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^^^ This. Or rather there are only a handful of MU's where transformation is recommended at least by me.
These are D3, Rob, and possibly peach. I also say fight the first 50% of pika with zelda and all of IC's with zelda but those are the 3 that i will say transformation really helps.
There are probably some more that you can if you want like maybe TL or someone if you are having trouble and are confident in the MU.
The important thing is to not do it in MU's where zelda gets absolutely man handled. For instance i wouldnt recommend it vs Lucario, Kirby, Olimar, Snake (although i say this because people say snake ***** zelda but idk tbh).
But if zelda does ok and u canty land a kill why not if you can transform safely. Its just that alot of other MU's like mario, and pika, and MK where killing might not be horrible with Zelda (i only mention MK because i hear landing a kill move on MK isn't the tricky part of the MU its racking the damage) we have cool GR options or better methods via edge pressure.
This leads to an interesting question. Should we discuss this matchup (and all other Sheikups) as Sheik only, or as Sheik/Zelda, as we have been doing? While strategies are a huge part of discussion, our goal is to come up with a number that pseudo-scientifically describes the matchup.
If we start including Zelda in the Sheik matchups and Sheik in the Zelda matchups, then it might give us inaccurate results, and it'll tumble down into a pit where Zel and Sheik have the exact same matchup values for everyone.
It'll be like trying to determine the the natural rate of a chemical reaction (Sheik vs X), but then adding a catalyst (Zelly) and recording the resulting value as the natural rate (Sheik vs X).
If we start including Zelda in the Sheik matchups and Sheik in the Zelda matchups, then it might give us inaccurate results, and it'll tumble down into a pit where Zel and Sheik have the exact same matchup values for everyone.
It'll be like trying to determine the the natural rate of a chemical reaction (Sheik vs X), but then adding a catalyst (Zelly) and recording the resulting value as the natural rate (Sheik vs X).
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
No, because Zelda is basically like a tech for Sheik. It is when her VB becomes useful. Thing is, this tech is match up dependent and not very useful in 90% of her match ups.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
well they now have zelda/sheik on the tier lsit together, so if we want to gather an accurate ratio for this for only sheik, then try playing it sheik only, but anyone will tell you that against certain chars thats a BAD idea
this is jsut discussion, not after a ratio so it should be using both chars, continue
and yes, zelda is too bad for her to be worthy of learning how to play properly for a sheik main, all you need to do is learn how to transform safely and to kill with her, not to rack up damage
this is jsut discussion, not after a ratio so it should be using both chars, continue
and yes, zelda is too bad for her to be worthy of learning how to play properly for a sheik main, all you need to do is learn how to transform safely and to kill with her, not to rack up damage
Judo777
Smash Master
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lies! lol. If your zelda is considerably worse than ur sheik than ur opponent will absolutely massacre you when you try and transform for kills. Zelda is not as easy to kill with at higher levels of play because running up and usmashing wont cut it against better people.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
that's obvious, thats why you got to learn how to kill with her without taking sufficient amount of damage, personally i prefer to stay sheik throughout and wait for a mistake or a good read
Ok my bad I should have clarified I was posting from my DSi so that's why the post was so abrupt lol.
DDD, Pikachu, Icies, ROB, Charizard, and Yoshi are probably the ones your going to want to transform for. Any other characters Sheik probably does a better job of killing than Zelda does except for maybe Lucario but that's not recommended like Judo said. There's been times where after I lost my stock I got impatient and sitched to Zelda and my opponent just ran away from me and racked tons of damage on me before I even get the kill. ZELDA IS BAD....like really bad, people who are really good at this game just eat her up.
Also Zelda has guaranteed lightning kicks on most of the fatties out of a dtilt trip which is vey useful.
HOWEVER, Zelda can be really useful if you're fighting a lesser skilled player and for whatever reason you're having trouble with him or someone who doesn't know the matchup.
Agreed.
We've been discussing the matchups as solo Sheik which we should however if Zelda actually affects the matchup ratio than we put that ratio in as well. For example DDD MU Discussion we put 45-55 Sheik slight disadvantage solo but 50-50 if Zelda is included.
Tbh though, there really isn't very many matchups where Zelda actually affects the ratio so it really isn't a big deal.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
IDK why they have a Shelda list. It's a stuoid idea to main Sheilda like 90% of the time.
Down B= Tech
ps Those match ups that you need to know Zelda on are IC's and Pikachu. Only on two match ups is she needed. I would soon enough go GaW and avoid Zelda.
This to, and Zelda is terrible at high levels. The foe can see every move coming and they can camp against Zelda. Zelda can't approach and I have literately been forced to transform back.
Meh, that's a good list I might agree to that. Maybe Bowser and and the Mario brothers too.
Judo777
Smash Master
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Yup i agree. Never thought of yoshi but i have so much experience in that MU i don't see myself having yoshi problems for a while. I'll keep it in mind tho.
Also saviours dude Rob and D3 i HIGHYLY recommend using zelda. If ur zelda is fairly up to snuff they make those MU's SOOOOOOO much easier. Seriously imagine playing those MU's where you put them in the worried state of dying after 100 every stock. I think you have a much bigger advantage when ur opponent is in kill percents because of how overly careful they must be. Meanwhile you can try and pick apart their defenses. When you play sheik against D3 at 100 they can still play with little caution because they arent about to die.
On a side note i think this is one of luigis greatest strengths. Your ALWAYS in his kill percents which is freaking scary.
I might have screwed up ur quote just a warning.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
why do we need to use zelda so much vs. d3? he cant chaingrab either of them so surely its not all that bad, or is it the waddles get in the way of our camping and not hers?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah, next time i face ddd, i'm going to transform
when i stay sheik he literally dies at 180/190 to a fair. sometimes 200+ and dies to utilt.
when i stay sheik he literally dies at 180/190 to a fair. sometimes 200+ and dies to utilt.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Why wouldn't you want to kill earlier?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
dose kills son
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^This
that and Zelda sucks for revenge killing, which I don't get for the life of me why anyone would do. Only when you've got a significant lead is it safer to use her, since by raw percent that helps make the opponent more or less inclined to approach (aka Zelda becomes a defensive character for once, which is what she's much better at).
Oh yeah, what do you guys think about transforming to Zelda against DK? He can live for a looooooong time, but his shield to hurtbox ratio is one of the worst in the game lol, making wearing on his shield with one hit usmashable.
Personally, I'd rather poke with Sheik and follow up from there. For kills, though, I'm on the fence.
FUUUU- We're talking about DK in the ROB MU discussion. Are robots really that boring?
Heartstring
Smash Legend
no, theyve jsut given up on finding a way of beating him *beef*
Judo777
Smash Master
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I could see it being useful somewhat but DK's reach can make getting in range to kill with zelda kinda hard not to mention killing DK isn't that hard once you get him offstage. I recently learned we can just trade a fair for about 2% from his up b just by attacking him from the side during up B its one of the better ways to kill DK IMO.
Also waiting for DK to have to land near us is another smart move. DK is one of the few characters to get tippered by sheiks usmash while standing.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Oh I see, that does make Zelda kinda a moot point.
Yeah his recovery's pretty booty lol.
Yeah his recovery's pretty booty lol.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
What's the weird animation?
Also wouldn't utilt be pretty good to cover some of ROB's options coming down in terms of setting up traps against an air dodge? I know he could try doing nair/bair, but let's say you've pressured him to dodge in the air, wouldn't FF -> utilt be pretty good?
What do you guys do against ROB's gyro drops when recovering? Unlike some other characters I play, I can just stall and afford to avoid it more seeing as how sheik's offstage options are abysmal.
Also ROB's tilts are pretty legit, especially ftilt, it has great range and is good for anti-air. dtilt's a good poke, the trip lets him get grabs/setups. Jab's pretty fast and lends itself to be a trap, usually for a grab.
I also would like to make mention that especially if you're at very high percents, you might want to wait to momentum cancel with an aerial after a throw, ROB's love to laser gimp people when they're near the blastlines because all they think about is surviving the weak throw when it gets to that percent.
Also wouldn't utilt be pretty good to cover some of ROB's options coming down in terms of setting up traps against an air dodge? I know he could try doing nair/bair, but let's say you've pressured him to dodge in the air, wouldn't FF -> utilt be pretty good?
What do you guys do against ROB's gyro drops when recovering? Unlike some other characters I play, I can just stall and afford to avoid it more seeing as how sheik's offstage options are abysmal.
Also ROB's tilts are pretty legit, especially ftilt, it has great range and is good for anti-air. dtilt's a good poke, the trip lets him get grabs/setups. Jab's pretty fast and lends itself to be a trap, usually for a grab.
I also would like to make mention that especially if you're at very high percents, you might want to wait to momentum cancel with an aerial after a throw, ROB's love to laser gimp people when they're near the blastlines because all they think about is surviving the weak throw when it gets to that percent.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Why are people just posting in here!? C'mon, we need to get onto other character discussions and other discussions period. We need to work as a community to advance Sheik.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah, but not for a while
I thought I'd get in this upcoming Summer, but looking at how my school's credits equate in terms of them being trimesters, I'll probably go there for the Winter Term 2011.
I totally want to meet all the UT smashers though, it'd be awezum :D
I love how enthusiastic you are but chill man. Marth, ZSS, and Snake discussions barely have anything in them we're definitely not ready to move on yet.
It'll be funny, Ken Neth will get back from his mission by then but Yaz (our top MK) will just be leaving lol.Yeah, but not for a while
I thought I'd get in this upcoming Summer, but looking at how my school's credits equate in terms of them being trimesters, I'll probably go there for the Winter Term 2011.
I totally want to meet all the UT smashers though, it'd be awezum :D