Meta Road to Stardom - Mario Metagame Thread (v1.1.1)

[mario123007]

Hey guys,

So after watching the top 8 of EVO 2015, there was only one man representing our beloved iconic hero Mario, Mr. Ally himself. He finished in 5th place which is a pretty great spot. After this event, I was wondering that if it does this actually mean great things of Mario's future competitive metagame? He placed really high at a high level tournament like this. Like it came to this as results :

1st : ZeRo (representing and )
2nd : Mr. R (representing )
3rd : Nairo (representing )
4th : Abadango (representing and. A bit of )
5th : Ally (representing ) and Dabuz (representing )
7th : ESAM (representing ) and FOW (representing )

With this, it really brings back confidence and put a smile on my face when Mario made this far. He really does have the amazing potential. I still think he's a high tier character, not a top-tier but still pretty solid. What do you guys think about this?

Not surprised to see Zero got 1st, but kind of surprised Dabuz only got 5th place, better luck next time Dabuz.

And I really like how Ally use Mario, I might watch most of his Mario match for reference.

 

[Kulty]

Not surprised to see Zero got 1st, but kind of surprised Dabuz only got 5th place, better luck next time Dabuz.

And I really like how Ally use Mario, I might watch most of his Mario match for reference.

I heard that some people don't prefer to refer to Ally when you start to learn Mario at a high skill level. They mostly recommend someone like Zenyou for players who wants to start to study Mario as a whole. Maybe it's because Ally knows Mario in an another level, like an extremely high level professional.

 

[mario123007]

I heard that some people don't prefer to refer to Ally when you start to learn Mario at a high skill level. They mostly recommend someone like Zenyou for players who wants to start to study Mario as a whole. Maybe it's because Ally knows Mario in an another level, like an extremely high level professional.

Maybe I can't learn Ally's every moves, but I just love how he plays Mario, so is Nyani.

 

[Kulty]

Maybe I can't learn Ally's every moves, but I just love how he plays Mario, so is Nyani.

Me neither, but I really admire and respect that man just for everything he does with Mario to prove that he can take on the highest skill players and best characters in the game (same goes for Nyani, someone that you can learn from). Really have a smile on my face when I saw Mario being part of top 8.

 

[mario123007]

Me neither, but I really admire and respect that man just for everything he does with Mario to prove that he can take on the highest skill players and best characters in the game (same goes for Nyani, someone that you can learn from). Really have a smile on my face when I saw Mario being part of top 8.

Yeah, I remember Nyani quit Smash during brawl because Mario wasn't that tough.

I often watch how she use the FLUDD.

 

[Kulty]

Yeah, I remember Nyani quit Smash during brawl because Mario wasn't that tough.

I often watch how she use the FLUDD.

Yeah, even though I don't really think I master Mario completely (I think I'm far from it), seeing players like Ally, Zxax and Zenyou along with Nyani just brings me hope for Mario to really be a tournament viable character. Yeah, really love the way on how she uses the FLUDD, a move that's quite underrated for Mario users.

 

[mario123007]

Yeah, even though I don't really think I master Mario completely (I think I'm far from it), seeing players like Ally, Zxax and Zenyou along with Nyani just brings me hope for Mario to really be a tournament viable character. Yeah, really love the way on how she uses the FLUDD, a move that's quite underrated for Mario users.

Me too lol, I have use Mario ever since Melee, but only know how his moves works recently.

And I am a bit sick of my 3DS controls too...

 

[Kulty]

Me too lol, I have use Mario ever since Melee, but only know how his moves works recently.

And I am a bit sick of my 3DS controls too...

Me too, like I used Mario since the original Smash, but in Melee, I used Dr. Mario over Mario instead. I don't have a Wii U, and I'm also a little bit tired from my 3DS controls. Really want to know if my Mario is good or not. I know there's something missing in my learning process with him.

 

[mario123007]

Me too, like I used Mario since the original Smash, but in Melee, I used Dr. Mario over Mario instead. I don't have a Wii U, and I'm also a little bit tired from my 3DS controls. Really want to know if my Mario is good or not. I know there's something missing in my learning process with him.

The 3DS' biggest flaw for Smash has to be small screen, and the circle pad.
Even though New 3DS has C stick, because it's just a stiff rubber, I rather found it hard to use. Circle pad isn't like the control stick one the GC that can flick it fast, so it's easier to pivot in the Wii U version compare to 3DS version.
And even local play some time lags too if you don't have a good connecting environment. Wfi battle nuff said.

It's not like I hate playing Smash 3DS, I like the game, but I might just only played it in half casual. If I really want to get better at Smash, I might just stay home and play Wii U.

 

[Darrman]

I often play 3DS matches. Nice when you're lazy and wanna play Smash in bed. I fit both those. I generally do a lot of FG.

 

[Xeze]

I play both the 3DS and Wii U version of Smash 4, both competitively. The 3DS is still good to train fundamentals and specific matchups but for more advanced techniques, like pivot jump-cancelled up smash or foxtrot cancel F-smash, the Wii U version is way better due to better controller options. I love the Wii U Pro Controller.

 

[mario123007]

I play both the 3DS and Wii U version of Smash 4, both competitively. The 3DS is still good to train fundamentals and specific matchups but for more advanced techniques, like pivot jump-cancelled up smash or foxtrot cancel F-smash, the Wii U version is way better due to better controller options. I love the Wii U Pro Controller.

I prefer GC controller. I had used it ever since Melee.

 

[DunnoBro]

I may be misunderstanding something, but how come more marios don't go for rar bair after dthrow by the ledge? Even ally and zenyou i almost always see go for fair.

It's not a true combo but it does a few things:

1: It's so amazingly fast, even if they air dodge mario still retains good frame advantage. Depending on percents/position he can try for a nair or upb follow up after. (upb recommended so you don't lose to some nairs)
2: A sour spot bair combos nicely into sweetspot while being so much closer to the blastzone, killing around 100-120 if started by the ledge.
3: RAR fair is overall superior for punishing air dodges due to being turned around and can continue the animation below the ledge.

 

[Kaladin]

What should Mario's neutral look like? I do lots of empty hops and SH bairs for poking and spacing, full hop fireballs (should they be shorthopped?) to force reactions/poke and look for an opportunity to land one of Mario's many combo starters. I'll also throw in the occasional fully charged flood in neutral to push them offstage, and some B-reverse/wavebounced fireball shenanigans. Anything I should be doing better/am missing?

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

What should Mario's neutral look like? I do lots of empty hops and SH bairs for poking and spacing, full hop fireballs (should they be shorthopped?) to force reactions/poke and look for an opportunity to land one of Mario's many combo starters. I'll also throw in the occasional fully charged flood in neutral to push them offstage, and some B-reverse/wavebounced fireball shenanigans. Anything I should be doing better/am missing?

What you described is fine, but sh fireball and random fludd uses aren't great. D tilt is a good tool to throw out too.

 

[Xeze]

What you described is fine, but sh fireball and random fludd uses aren't great. D tilt is a good tool to throw out too.

Using FLUDD to force your opponent into a bad position, for instance offstage, isn't a "random" use. It's actually a good way to mantain stage control.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I see Fludd as a tool that can exploit opponents that try to recovery high or commit to a laggy move. If you can push them offstage, it's good for you.

 

[RMF]

How you guys fight with platforms? When the opponent is above me, I usually jump and use uair to put pressure on their shield. When the opponent is down I try to drop the platform and immediately and use dair while falling. But I feel like I'm doing something wrong, since it is not working well, especially against C.Falcon, Ganon and Rosa.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I can confirm that.

Mario's B-throw now kills SUPER EARLY.

It kills Mario at the edge of FD at 117% (No DI, not rage).

117%!

We literally stole Sonic's B-throw.

NICE!!!! This is huge for me because I always seem to get people to 110% quickly and have to fish for that extra 15% to confirm a kill! Nice!!

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

How you guys fight with platforms? When the opponent is above me, I usually jump and use uair to put pressure on their shield. When the opponent is down I try to drop the platform and immediately and use dair while falling. But I feel like I'm doing something wrong, since it is not working well, especially against C.Falcon, Ganon and Rosa.

Depending on my % I try to Dair and aim behind my opponent, or back to the main stage to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Kulty]

So I read Smash 4 Mario official SmashWiki page and according to this, it says that patch 1.1.1 slightly nerfed Mario indirectly due to the increase in shieldstun, which makes it harder for Mario to punish OOS. It's worse for the case of Dr. Mario due to his worst mobility. What's your take on this, guys? Will this really hurt Mario's viability in tournaments?

 

[Xeze]

So I read Smash 4 Mario official SmashWiki page and according to this, it says that patch 1.1.1 slightly nerfed Mario indirectly due to the increase in shieldstun, which makes it harder for Mario to punish OOS. It's worse for the case of Dr. Mario due to his worst mobility. What's your take on this, guys? Will this really hurt Mario's viability in tournaments?

Eh idk really. I think Mario is still a viable character. More shieldstun means he has to pressure more rather than punish OoS.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

Here's how I've liked to abuse ShieldStun with Mario in the recent update:

Jab + Down Throw = Usual Combos.

Jab + Dair

Dair DI'ing behind the opponent.

I like to pressure as much as possible to keep my opponent's Shield weak . That way it will make them more prone to jump or roll than Shield me allowing for Mario's Aerial game to shine.

Also if they are on a Platform above me Dair and DI'ing downwards is a nice way to pressure shield and its safer than doing it on the ground.

 

[Kulty]

Eh idk really. I think Mario is still a viable character. More shieldstun means he has to pressure more rather than punish OoS.

Yeah. It gets slightly worse for Mario, but it's just that Mario has to work a bit harder to get these OOS punishes.

 

[HeroMystic]

Going to be honest. After a ton of practice with my partner post-patch, I don't feel any differences.

 

[Steroidism]

Hey guys, Zenyou here. I found a couple unique things with Mario that you guys will probably be interested in as well as tools I've been using for quite a long time. I'd like to share some of them with the world!

Check it out! <3

 

[Kulty]

Hey guys, Zenyou here. I found a couple unique things with Mario that you guys will probably be interested in as well as tools I've been using for quite a long time. I'd like to share some of them with the world!

Check it out! <3

Nice dude! Keep up the good work! I really thought that forward-throw was useless, but because of this video, I'll try to use forward-throw for combo mixups. Once again, excellent! Will practice that.

 

[Rikkhan]

Hello, could someone help to test if this combos are guaranteed?

1.- Jump + Uair + Jump + Uair: Kills around 120%+

2.- Jump + Uair + Jump + Fair: Kills around 100%+

3.- weak nair + Dtilt + jump + Uair + Jump + Dair kills around 80%(I even killed a pikachu at 60%).

4.- weak nair + Dsmash.

5.- Jump + Uair + Jump + Dair kills around 100%

 

[DunnoBro]

Weak nair > dtilt > uair > dair is guaranteed even in training mode, though only kills at very specific percent (1-2% interval)

With rage making everything stronger it's very real and it's the only real set-up for dtilt.

Dtilt is essentially a lower angle downthrow that can't be DI'd as much.

The first two were always known i think.

Nair > Dsmash is true but I think it goes underutilized since you need to dsmash on the first possible frame. This is pretty hard. I'd suggest dsmashing with grab if you have issues with this though it shouldn't be too big a deal.

Nair to get ledge get-up like sheiks do for BF seems pretty interesting. I already did it but didn't know i could kill off it.

Another optimization thing I noticed: When the opponent is too low for another uair after dthrow > uair, it seems like nair sets up for a 50/50 death scenario at pretty low percents by the ledge.

Essentially after nair, call out the jump or simply no air dodge with fair. Or you if you predict an attack/air dodge, charge fsmash (downward angle works most consistently for me)

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

So after watching a Mario combo video of a Youtuber named Muramishi, he mentionned in the description that Mario has been given a minor nerf last patch. Apparently, he said that down-throw has slightly less hitstun which makes slightly more difficult to start off combos. He also mentions that you can`t true combo down-throw into Dair or Bair. Is it true? Can someone test this out?

Here's the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmnowgxF2s

 

[DunnoBro]

Hi guys,

So after watching a Mario combo video of a Youtuber named Muramishi, he mentionned in the description that Mario has been given a minor nerf last patch. Apparently, he said that down-throw has slightly less hitstun which makes slightly more difficult to start off combos. He also mentions that you can`t true combo down-throw into Dair or Bair. Is it true? Can someone test this out?

Here's the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmnowgxF2s

Doesn't sound true, damage still the same so knockback/hitstun should be too unless they changed it less than 1%

 

[HeroMystic]

It's already been proven that there has been absolutely no changes to Mario's moveset.

 

[AfroGamerNinja]

However, I've heard that the 1.1.0 patches made it harder for him to punish OoS stuff. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Kulty]

However, I've heard that the 1.1.0 patches made it harder for him to punish OoS stuff. Can anyone confirm?

Yeah. It is true because of the new changes in shield mechanics. Basically, the increase in shieldstun makes it harder for Mario to punish OOS. So that's basically it.

 

[DunnoBro]

After testing a little bit, I think in situations where you'd have to SH uair after dthrow it's more optimal to SH Dair instead.

At those percents, sh uair generally puts them at an awkward angle where another uair won't connect very well. Even if it does, it doesn't combo very well into SJP or any further damage due to needing to use your jumps.

The slightly higher, more horizontal trajectory just sets up better. While without too much rage, they can air dodge, they'll be so low and have lag you will definitely be able to land a uair after dair before landing if you just follow their DI right.

(If they're a fast faller at higher percents you can do nair to try for a jab reset kill set-up maybe)

 

[Macedonian]

After testing a little bit, I think in situations where you'd have to SH uair after dthrow it's more optimal to SH Dair instead.

At those percents, sh uair generally puts them at an awkward angle where another uair won't connect very well. Even if it does, it doesn't combo very well into SJP or any further damage due to needing to use your jumps.

The slightly higher, more horizontal trajectory just sets up better. While without too much rage, they can air dodge, they'll be so low and have lag you will definitely be able to land a uair after dair before landing if you just follow their DI right.

(If they're a fast faller at higher percents you can do nair to try for a jab reset kill set-up maybe)

ive spent alot of time in training mode with mario so id love to pick your brain for a sec if i may,

For what weight class and percent are you refereeing? the awkward angle thats a little bit more forward angle that you refer to i like to chase with a nair if i can but if your not able to hit the upB after then the nair might be to far away, but if that's the case its not like its a bad angle that can possible give rise to a spike if they want to spotdodge as soon as they can after the upair.

ohter options i have experimented with
-upair will be decent to use up until about 35% on fast fallers, about 25% on heavies
- stations after down throw where you can combo into a rar bair, would this be a possible alternative. (my dream would be to RAR my upair into a bair after a downthrow but ive never pulled it off really well, and it probably dose not work.).
-upamash can actually work after a downthrow as a mixup but im not exactly how good this is yet, i have only recently been experimenting with this in actual games with rage and DI and have no conclusive info yet.

i just really hate to follow up with Dair after downthrow, I hate when people spot dodge or hit me out of it, and generally have only had supper limited success after it since after about 20 percents things go from comboing to being to far up to reliably combo for my taste.

 

[DunnoBro]

ive spent alot of time in training mode with mario so id love to pick your brain for a sec if i may,

For what weight class and percent are you refereeing? the awkward angle thats a little bit more forward angle that you refer to i like to chase with a nair if i can but if your not able to hit the upB after then the nair might be to far away, but if that's the case its not like its a bad angle that can possible give rise to a spike if they want to spotdodge as soon as they can after the upair.

ohter options i have experimented with
-upair will be decent to use up until about 35% on fast fallers, about 25% on heavies
- stations after down throw where you can combo into a rar bair, would this be a possible alternative. (my dream would be to RAR my upair into a bair after a downthrow but ive never pulled it off really well, and it probably dose not work.).
-upamash can actually work after a downthrow as a mixup but im not exactly how good this is yet, i have only recently been experimenting with this in actual games with rage and DI and have no conclusive info yet.

Nair just doesn't reliably string into anything worthwhile on good characters.


You can fair and kill them right there if you read an airdodge but at these lower percents people are more eager to dragon punch/jump. It's not really consistent.

Also hitting with upb for the guaranteed damage forfeits positional advantage for slight damage.

Dair sets up for bair stringss if they go behind you, and uair > sjp if in front. (though it's not hard to just turn around for bair here either)

i just really hate to follow up with Dair after downthrow, I hate when people spot dodge or hit me out of it, and generally have only had supper limited success after it since after about 20 percents things go from comboing to being to far up to reliably combo for my taste.

At the low percents you'd be doing it at, they shouldn't be able to airdodge through it AND the buffered option afterward if you just don't fast fall and followed DI properly.

RAR Uair only works to punish inward DI. (Generally only floaties with bad recoveries trying to avoid getting rar bair'd offstage do this.)

However, in general the characters that can nair you out of it are floaties and you should be either baiting out nairs with smashes or fthrow > bairing them anyway.

 

[Rikkhan]

Hey DunnoBro have you tested dthrow + frame perfect sh uair combos on fast fallers? I've tested on sheik, falcon and zss and they get comboe'd HARD, it's a small percentage window I don't remember exactly the number but it's around 30-50% depending on the character.

Combo examples:
Dthrow + SH Uair + Nair + Dthrow + Uair + UpB
Dthrow + SH Uair + Nair + Dtilt + FJ Uair + Uair + UpB
Dhrow + SH Uair + Nair + Fsmash
Dhrow + SH Uair + Uair + FJ Uair + Uair + UpB

I haven't tested these combos on real players so I don't know if these combos are actually usable, but they look very nasty.

Also is legit SH/FJ Uair as a OOS option? because if it is there also some combos from rising Uair into Nair/Uair.

PD: these combos doesn't work on fox.

 

[Lukingordex]

Hello Mario Mains, i'm originally a Yoshi and Ness main but lately i"ve been feeling like they don't cover each other pretty well in terms of match ups, so i decided to pick Mario as a secondary. Soon, I'll be attending a big tourney in Brazil (UFSmash) and I'm planning to finally use Mario in some sets. The 2 characters that i'm sure i'm going to use Mario against right now are Roy and Samus. Did I make a good choice?

Also wish me luck.

 

[Xeze]

Hello Mario Mains, i'm originally a Yoshi and Ness main but lately i"ve been feeling like they don't cover each other pretty well in terms of match ups, so i decided to pick Mario as a secondary. Soon, I'll be attending a big tourney in Brazil (UFSmash) and I'm planning to finally use Mario in some sets. The 2 characters that i'm sure i'm going to use Mario against right now are Roy and Samus. Did I make a good choice?

Also wish me luck.

First of all, best of luck from a portuguese Mario main here

Against Samus and Roy, Mario is a solid choice. Positive matchup against both of them.