Meta Road to Stardom - Mario Metagame Thread (v1.1.1)

[Kulty]

Found something that works great with fludd pressure/canceling.

Full hop fireball from around the roll point(where you stand to pressure with fludd) catches a ledge hanging/attacking/jumping opponent, which is the general option against a fludd charging mario but that usually just reset the position so wasn't worth doing.

But I found fading off to sjp snap the ledge actually has a hitbox. No one probably noticed because mario looks like he's just normally snapping if an opponent isn't there, but it does in fact do a single frame 3 intangible, unchallengable coin that both true combos off the fireball hit, hits a still hanging opponent the fireball could not, or sets up a trump.

This is great since when people see you charging fludd at the ledge, good players tend to wait or take other options since they don't want to just be fludded offstage.

It isn't a true combo off fireball(not usually), but that actually makes it scarier. SJP is intangible frame 3, and you gain ledge invincibility almost immediately. Very few moves are going to win, it catches jumps and stage spikes them without them, and canceled on the ledge gives you no actual endlag so you can punish an airdodge on reaction.

This stage spike isn't very strong since it's the first coin, I don't think it'll even kill an opponent that kept their jump over 100% but again due to the no actual endlag, it sets up beautifully for bair, cape, etc. If they did, then challenge it with fludd. If not, follow the fireball.

The main set-up for this is charge fludd, shield jump cancel into fireball if they don't take their option right away.

If they roll or standard get-up while you were fireballing, you can still get them with dair into follow-ups. If someone ledge jump avoided it, maybe sjp straight up and cancel on the ledge?


Note: Fireball ALSO true combos into fair at this spacing too, but much less consistently. It's slower so not sure how viable it is, it seems similar to diddy's banana > dair set-up. If you have to do it, try it but otherwise seems too risky.

Edit: Speaking of sjp, theoretically you should be able to bair someone's shield and then sjp. This would only be worth as a mix-up by the ledge to cancel on the ledge with... But with fludd to consistently keep the opponent by the ledge, this could give mario a great spacing tool.

But mario's bair actually just even better frame data and range than sheik's fair now, the issue is he can't jab to stuff grabs after. So if properly spaced, this does seem to be a thing... Testing now on for glory and yea it works but i can't tell if they're just unshielding.

Edit2: DON'T TRY THIS VS CORRIN OMG

Why doesn't this work against Corrin? Is there something about him or her that makes him invulnerable to those mixup strings?

 

[DunnoBro]

Why doesn't this work against Corrin? Is there something about him or her that makes him invulnerable to those mixup strings?

Their fsmash/side b can still punish it hard.

Also after testing it seems like most good characters can either punish it directly like that (BF, hard hitting dash attacks) or make getting back to neutral a pain for mario from the ledge so definitely only seems worth early game when bair true combos into SJP anyway.

And even then only worth doing like once or twice, like if you keep bairing someone shield and getting grabbed/jabbed then try this. I think I'll work on this after utilizing SJP out of fludd more often to catch ledge rising aerials on reaction. Fludd can PROTECT you on reaction but it still lets them get back to neutral.

I think this could also work for making usmash pseudo-safe on shield with the back hit.

Edit: Oh wait, you could just spot dodge instead. Reason it can work for bair is if you haven't landed yet.

Same goes for air dodging after bair. You wouldn't have a hitbox or lag but with your mobility it'd probably save you from grabs. I gotta lab it but eh doesn't look too good anymore.

 

[DunnoBro]

May have found something important.

Similar to yoshi, fox, etc mario may have a mix-up on jab. (specifically jab2)

While fsmash's hitbox doesn't come out until frame 15, it does adjust his hurtbox to avoid jabs to allow fsmash to connect. I'm sure many of you have already seen this but also have seen it not work. I think I understand why.

Most fsmashes inputted via control stick + a end up being stutter steps, dedicated 3 or so frames to stepping forward. Most jabs hover around 3 frames, meaning any stutter stepping at all makes this not work if the opponent mashes A. Which is why we likely didn't believe this worked.

This primarily works on all non-fast fallers. (Even yoshi's stuff doesn't work on fast fallers) Also, at this spacing fsmash is generally safe on shield. If regular angling would result in a sourspot and thus unsafe, upangle should result in a sweetspot on shield and make it safe again.

If this info is true, this means A+B smash is likely needed if you do not use smash stick. It's the same amount of inputs for fsmash as control stick + a since it doesn't require a direction for fsmash, and it ensures you will not stutter step.

If they shield you can grab, and if they jump that is a very low double jump. Meaning if you have a full fludd charged it could still put them in a very bad position. Even if you guessed wrong on the grab/fsmash.

Roll in still gets hit by fsmash, and roll away can be covered on reaction from the dash animation of going for a dash grab.

Tangentially related if any character jabs your shield with their mix-up jab you can punish on reaction with SJP. It doesn't seem like they can shield but even if they can that means they still have to worry about jabbing you. Shielding unnecessarily at that range against mario = grabs.

(It will not beat jab1s into jab2s, you have to know which jab has more cooldown)

Edit: While jab jab > fsmash doesn't work on falcon, jab jab > dtilt does seem to. Doesn't vs fox/sheik though, only vs falcon due to the hurtbox contortion.

Edit2: While this doesn't work on fox/sheik, if you hold away expecting them to jab and they do jab, you will fall out and can shield. Dsmash/Fsmash can work at this time. So can cape > fsmash/dsmash. Not 100% the most optimal punish, but being able to bait out a jab and guarantee a fallout pretty much guarantees death against these characters.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think I found the optimal edgeguarding flowchart. Few things first though:

1: Fthrow > FH Downangle Full charge fludd will almost always put a high % opponent in a worse position than a bthrow or dthrow would.
2: When near the ledge, dthrow > bair works well. If they jump you fludd, if they air dodge you just smash.
3: If your back is to the ledge but bthrow won't kill quite yet, Uthrow > SJP/Dair/Fludd all set up more consistent kill opportunities than a regular bthrow or dthrow. This seems to be the most universal time to uthrow.

No jump: Sjp will definitely kill that high if they take no option. And with their DI mixed up expecting bthrow or dthrow, it's easier to read DI.
Air dodge: Dair will definitely kill that high up and easily punishes air dodges at this height
Jump: Fludd to set up an edgeguard. Wayyyy better angle and situation than bthrow since the angle is sooo high. Can't even fludd after a bthrow. For this reason, if you don't have a full charge fludd start charging as soon as you uthrow. If they fall down on you with no jump, FH uair > dair/sjp can also kill at this angle.

Ideally though, the flowchart goes:

Fthrow > FH Full charge fludd (Angle depends, but holding forward pushes hardest by far) > Fade back to stage with a fireball, ideally bouncing off the lip of the stage to cover your endlag > Runoff SH Cape > Nair > Cape > SJP

Done in this order covers the most options and utilizes the moves in their most potent situations.

Fireball kills momentum and catches double jumps.
Cape1 catches high recoveries
Nair (when used after sh cape) has a huge lingering hitbox on the 2-frame area and a fantastic gimp angle
Cape2 catches deep recoveries
SJP stage spikes and forces the opponent off the ledge immediately if they actually made it to the stage.

This is for traditional recoveries that can go high or deep. Like sheik, rosalina, or mario himself.

For more predictable recoveries that never go in the areas cape2 or SJP to really get them (DK, Luigi, Yoshi, etc) I found another flowchart after fthrow > fludd that covers more susceptible recoveries pretty well.

Running FH Cape out > Cape In > Cape back out > Rising Nair > SJP

Cape is a frame 12 hitbox with the same FAF as bair. But you can do it while moving forward, so you don't lose the 3~ frames spent doing that so it evens out for the first one. However, since it stalls you in the air it lets you cover the same options you meant to quicker.

The downside is it halts your momentum, so you can't cape and then chase someone recovering high. Meaning cape is strongest right around the ledge grab point, so why not just keep using it?

Cape1 covers high recoveries like in the first flowchart
Cape2 however covers the 2-frame, air dodges, and potential weaves away from you. Since this turns you around to bair or nair easily. Cape isn't fast enough to punish airdodges itself, but mario's bair/nair are.
Cape3 is honestly just a hitbox to put out while you wait for the optimal nair height.
Rising Nair once again covers the 2-frame beautifully
SJP does similar at this angle, though it seems finnicky about stage spiking. It's more likely to pop them up for a bair/uair at best but it's at least something.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, I definitely think uthrow should be the go-to throw after dthrow combo percents if your back is to the ledge and bthrow won't kill yet.

Bthrow kills almost entirely off base, and positioning. So staling is an issue, bthrow can get kill lightning twice in a row without actually killing in the exact same positioning.

It pretty much guarantees 80% fludd charge and the opponents landing pattern is pretty obvious, they don't want to go behind you to get bair'd and fludd wouldn't push them too far out over the other side. But typically they're still not trying to grab the ledge so there's only 3 main landing spots.

1: Over top of you, generally a spot dodge > smash covers their airdodge or landing aerial. If their landing aerial would beat spot dodge, usmash or shield + punish usually works.

2: Near in front of you. Rolling or pivot usmash covers this well

3: Lip of the ledge to juke you about if they'll grab it or just land on it. Fludd works well though you'll have do a jumping fludd and catch them. If they're ding out towards the ledge while getting fludding it sends them SUPER far out, with no jump this is just awful. Dash attack and pivot usmash covers this option well too, depending on height. Dash attack while they have no jump > Fludd is very potent and shouldn't be underestimated.

If your fludd charge is full, just sit in shield and jump to fludd if you need to (gets you out of shield quicker) FH actually gives more control over the stream since you can hold in for a stronger stream.

I've also noticed uthrow true combos into at least one uair (but often the 2-3 dthrow can) during the deadzone points of some characters. Certain percents dthrow sends too far for utilt but not high enough for uair. Uthrow seems to consistently work at these percents.

But after uthrow, no jump opponents are in such a bad spot. Uair or shield will beat almost anything they do, and if they double jump you KNOW they're gonna land into you cause they don't wanna get fludded with no jump.

 

[DunnoBro]

While jab1/2 > fsmash can work, jab1/2 d-tilt seems much more consistent since it also has the fade-away effect fsmash does but comes out so much quicker, but also reduces mario's hurtbox and hits lower. Letting him avoid higher jabs like marth or falcon.

Dtilt is essentially a lower angle throw so unless fsmash would actually kill, this seems more optimal and the risk/reward/difficulty is just better.

 

[Goldenstein64]

Could holding down while SJPing to the ledge help stage spike?
This helps the SJP get the final hit while avoiding snapping to the ledge.

Edit: Keep note that you will have to stop holding down when you want to snap to the ledge.

 

[DunnoBro]

Could holding down while SJPing to the ledge help stage spike?
This helps the SJP get the final hit while avoiding snapping to the ledge.

Edit: Keep note that you will have to stop holding down when you want to snap to the ledge.

Yea, but it still doesn't guarantee it in my experience. It mainly just makes it linger better but also easier to tech.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

While jab1/2 > fsmash can work, jab1/2 d-tilt seems much more consistent since it also has the fade-away effect fsmash does but comes out so much quicker, but also reduces mario's hurtbox and hits lower. Letting him avoid higher jabs like marth or falcon.

Dtilt is essentially a lower angle throw so unless fsmash would actually kill, this seems more optimal and the risk/reward/difficulty is just better.

I can see PP away fsmash being safer than normal fsmash. Dtilt seems like it has better use tho

 

[DunnoBro]

I can see PP away fsmash being safer than normal fsmash. Dtilt seems like it has better use tho

Nope, the starting dash frames are roughly the same as the hurtbox altering on fsmash. Regular pivot fsmash doesn't work either.

Also something I noticed during the uthrow frametraps, it seems IMPOSSIBLE to air dodge full jump > double jump dair on reaction. At least with most chars.

However, it's easily possible with SH > DJ Dair. Generally because mario can't get that extra drift needed for dair to cover where they'll come out of their airdodge consistently.

Essentially, if they wait too long to airdodge they'll get caught in it anyway. And even before then, the dair can follow them and hit them with the final hit when they exit the airdodge.

Seems best to default to this after uthrow, charge fludd on your way down if they jumped away. Also, if they were higher percent and airdodged the last hit of the dair, often SJP will connect (and can do the strong 1-hit due to them being right on top of you)

Still testing, seems very optimal vs floaties and good recoveries though I'm not actually finding myself hitting or fludding faster fallers out of their double jumps. Not enough to make it matter really.

I think dthrow > charged fludd is actually more optimal since it works on them, and punishes optimal DI + Jump away. No jump but DI away means rar bair should kill, and no di/inward di means uair strings (to sjp or dair) should kill.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think fthrow > fireball > fludd/dash attack is an underrated frametrap

Spacing the fireball forces them to jump early over the fireball, or risk losing their jump to the fireball.

Fading away for the fludd lets you cover both jumps, and hasty recoveries after they got hit by the fireball. (They can't snap the ledge after being hit so soon)

Knowing this, if they recover deep you can keep harassing with fireballs or try to get their 2-frame with dash attack.

This seems optimal at high percent vs floaty or otherwise hard to combo characters (that generally have abuseable recoveries)

The fireball hitting them with their jump still kills their momentum and sets up for good edgeguards, not sure the best way to capitalize on it vs better recoveries, but then against the best recoveries tend to be on light fast fallers so it might be best to just go for damage like usual.

 

[DunnoBro]

It seems almost always better to do a cape out of dash reversed.

It turns you around for bairs, doesn't bring you as close, and keeps you further away. It reflects projectiles just about as well from behind, and I'm finding it's more forgiving about not getting it the first time since you're farther away and the back reflect box seems to stay out longer, covering the endlag.

Edit:

Tested vs fox laser. Virtually no difference in front or back cape. But keeping you turned around further away for bair/usmash is pretty big.

Tested vs pac fruit. Seems like for slow fruit you can easily react to, cape forward is better. I think cape away is just better for cape reads in general, since it's less of an investment.

 

[DunnoBro]

Oh wow I'm dumb

I was doing sjp to punish no air dodge / jump, but double jump uair works fine. Due to the height, uair kills consistently around 110% (Way better than SJP)

If they airdodge the uair, you can still sjp (though it won't kill unless you get a early hitbox only)

And you predict the airdodge overall, dair catches it. Might be able to react, not sure. Either way you have to try only connecting with the final hit.

This seems actually pretty intended since uair to punish no jump and dair to punish air dodge kill around the same times.

If they jumped away after either of these failed, you can fall with charging fludd. This gives incentive for the opponent to weave into you with no jump since they can get fludded if they go too far.

SJP does however seem optimal vs floaties or other characters that can beat uair/dair.

Honestly i'm practicing this vs other PR players, it comes into play JUST as dthrow stops comboing. It was converting into advantage pretty consistently until people got smarter with their jumps away, but at that point it's still essentially throwing them offstage with no jump so done right this seems really potent.

 

[DunnoBro]

Cape might actually be a valid approach in some matchups.

I'd say it seems best when there's mid-low range, no disjoints, and projectiles are a part of their neutral.

It's a little awkward to space, due to the boost you get from the dash and stall in the air, but it CAN be spaced to be safe on shield. And it does a LOT of shield damage. Cape > Jab Jab > Fsmash = Shield break or poke

(Usually best to mash jab after cape anyway)

Not sure which is better, dash cape or sh cape. Dash does seem more fluid and easier though. I'd use it in situations most other chars would use their dash attacks to whiff/idle punish since our own dash attack doesn't do that. It has a larger hitbox and more burst mobility, so it's often better in that purpose.

Aerial only seems good vs low range.

I'm also finding the best follow-up to a fh fireball is cape. It does good things on hit, good things on shield. (Fireball > Cape > Fsmash = Shieldbreak. Dtilt pokes too and avoids most jabs oos, better at combo percent)

Essentially, preemptive cape lets you actually take advantage of fireballs low low hit/shieldstun by punishing their buffered options.

For taller characters you had to sjp early/misspace on and thus can't jab after hitting their shield, sjp might be the only way to keep it safe. It also punishes rolls, though not hard.


---

Also found a REALLY dumb ledge bait. When they grab the ledge, just throw out dsmash expecting it not to hit. Then fsmash.

The dsmash is a bait for them to standard get-up and try to grab or take another option to try punishing dsmash. Fsmash is disjointed and beats grabs, at the right spacing it's safe on shield too. Fsmash also covers ledge jump and roll at certain spacings.

*Dsmash only lingers one frame so it will rarely catch earlier options, but it does at times and it hits at a great angle for that.

----

Finally, I found out it isn't jab jab > PIVOT fsmash, it's WALKAWAY fsmash. It's quicker and provides about the same spacing.

Walkaway fsmash seems almost always better. Kinda hard to do without c-stick or AB smash.

 

[DunnoBro]

BIG update to uthrow confirms. After uthrow at higher percents, if you suspect an airdodge, cape towards them. This stalls you to punish with uair/sjp where they'll exit.

This also:

Baits out sjp stuffing options like cloud or bowser dair.
Turns you around to fludd their jump away immediately, and get more of the water on them sooner, longer for way more push due to being in the air thus don't get pushed back.
ALSO lets you cover jump in with sjp.

Overall, I'm finding dair as an air dodge punish rather sub-optimal unless they're a floaty pre-110% and you have rage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, I think when you have fully charged fludd, and get a ledge grab, it might be best to just grab release on chars you want to gimp.

The angle is MUCH lower, so you're more likely to make something out of it. No damage from the throw sucks, though depending on how consistently you can edgeguard them it can work out...

For one thing, FH Fireball > Fludd covers jump and weave out in this situation. It won't gimp raw, but it usually puts them in helpless or further out while you sjp back to the ledge.

Seems like the only way they can avoid it is by jumping and attacking you or recovering high. Grounded Fludd should cover this option.

Note: You want air grab release, not just a regular one where they fall off the ledge. So don't pummel.

 

[DunnoBro]

Definitely regret not investing into AB smash sooner. The fact you don't need to smash the stick just gives you extra time and more leniency for pivot usmash. And it makes buffering f/dsmash just better too.

There's just a tighter distance I can do pivot usmash at, I thought I lost that tightness after leaving smash stick.

 

[DunnoBro]

Another update to uthrow, I think I was trying too hard with mix-ups. Due to the fact they HAVE to use an aerial/jump/airdodge before landing, otherwise they have to tech and things can go wrong easily there. Most people are burning their jumps or landing with an aerial first.

The most consistent success by far has been to uthrow and just wait out their landing. If they still have a jump, only go for uair/bair as going for a smash if they jump away can turn bad very easily. You can react to airdodges with smashes.

After they jump, they're always going to try landing back into the stage or DIing to the ledge. If they go to the ledge, fludd pushes hardest due to them DIing out. Fludd is both difficult, risky, and not very rewarding when fludding an opponent DIing in at this point. So get good at noticing their shift in momentum, and punishing the obvious DI in options like landing aerials or airdodges.

 

[DunnoBro]

Another update to edgeguards, it seems like grab release set-up for edgeguards wayyyy better than any throw. They're essentially lower, set knockback fthrows.

Then, fireball and dsmash snipe jumps really well.

However, for low recoveries, the best coverage by far for me has been:

Dropdown Dair > Immediate SJP (Hold down)

Make sure to practice this so you don't need to use your jump, otherwise if you trade you'll probably die.

But this puts out so many lingering hitboxes so long, not even sheik can consistently avoid it if she chose to recover low. It also isn't consistently techable if you mix up how long you hold down. They will get an airdodge if they try to tech the wrong coins, making the stage spike kill even better.

Dair rarely stages spikes, but it lingers, snipes jumps, and disallows them from grabbing the ledge while sjp stage spikes.

Whenever the opponent has been at that awkward but obvious "going deep" angle, I never knew what to do as mario. This covers that amazingly. And if they STILL haven't grabbed the ledge, you now have invincibility to try again.

Usually dropdown SJP works best and can be untechable this way when you do it for the ledge cancel.

Edit: Also I think I found the set-up for dair > usmash and dair > dsmash

When the opponent is at that range where you can dash grab but have to worry about immediate spot dodge/rolls, fireball sets up a situation that lets you cover both options.

Fireball > Dair > Dsmash true combos off a spot dodge/jab punish
Dair > Usmash will true combo if they rolled in (though less consistently)

This only works at high percent (100%+)

This seems best at the ledge when they can't roll away, though the fireball puts them offstage. Falling down with nair > sjp usually sets up a stage spike though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Landing Dair > SJP seems wayyy better vs foaties. It true combos, you don't need to worry about their nairs/disjoints, and since they're floaty you generally land before them and can keep a string going better than anything you'd have gotten from just a grab/smash read.

 

[DunnoBro]

Following up on edgeguard flowcharts, I think found a pretty consistent edgeguard follow-up.

Airdodge into the opponent offstage, and then sjp into the ledge. This accomplishes a lot and lets you bypass a LOT of your normal anti-edgeguard tactics like luigi fireball/yoshi egg/ness fair. The general "put out a hitbox to avoid an edgeguard)

After sh airdodging offstage, you're in the perfect position to sjp. If the opponent is beneath you, it will stage spike. If behind you, it pops them up for a bair after you grab the ledge. With the frame 3 intangibility + ledge invincibility, it doesn't seem likely that these airdodges will be punished.

This seems most optimal when you just fludded someone offstage. Mario can't cover many options in that situation since he's facing them thus can't bair, many disjoints any hitbox around the ledge leaves mario unable to capitalize off the situation.

However, this just puts you in such a good position.

If they attacked (or airdodged) while you airdodged, they can die.
If they try to punish the airdodge, they can die.
If they just tried to grab the ledge, it sets up a ledge trump situation.
If they went deep, you now can dropzone dair/sjp/bair them.
If they recover high, you can hold down. This often hits them back out for some reason. Though ledge jump uair kill confirms pretty well as this means they were DIing in.

Overall, the fact this lets you get turned around with invincibility gives you a far better vantage point for covering their recovery options. Just use your ledge jumps VERY sparingly as getting hit out of them often means death.

*You can also nair > SJP which covers the 2-frame beautifully.

Also noticed landing a ledge jump uair on a high recovering opponent kill confirms really well. Not sure why, I think it's because you just tend to hit them before they can react with DI properly.

Edit: Actually, FH Fireball > Airdodge > SJP seems most consistent.

 

[DunnoBro]

Alright, forget the uthrow stuff. Not sure why I didn't try applying fludd to dthrow flowcharts but yea it just works better.

Around mid-high percents (80+) Dthrow > Bair seems much more optimal. It gets them offstage, and flows well into edgeguards and airdodge/jump punishes.

Since you get turned around, mario is in primo positioning to punish airdodges with landing up/downsmash. (Downsmash only if they would go into the ground)

Next, if they jump inward at lower percents, bair still hits them and takes their jump. If they jump away, don't try to chase with bairs. Just turn around with a dj fireball, and charge fludd. This creates huge incentive to land into mario with no jump, and just flows well at all percents since fireball turns around around for fludd.

I've noticed at higher percents when they DI in, dair can catch and kill them fairly well.

If they DI in trying to avoid bair, the back hit of uair kill confirms into dair beautifully. Or just another bair.

 

[DunnoBro]

Alright, I think I got dthrow stuff worked out.

It seems best to dash pivot after high percents, rather than rar a jump or do a standing turnaround. I was testing and people need to react to the dash pivot just as much as the rar.

There's no 50/50s, but rather you just keep the opponent in a bad spot even if you guess wrong.

If they DI in to disallow bair, uair > Dair/SJP confirms easily. Kills from as early as 80% to whenever since once they're too high for sjp to connect, uair itself will start killing.

If they jump in, uair/dair/sjp cover similar options though I'd just go for uair unless you bait an airdodge. With no jump, uair sets up for a great landing trap.

If they jump away, bair/fludd is great. Generally I charge fludd while facing away from them and cancel into usmash/bair when they get too close. FH B-reverse fireball if they go low and try to edgeguard from there. (Falling fludd after fireball is pretty good)

And if they airdodge the bair, you can still land nair (or bair if they go too fair). It also tends to hit them inward, i.e into the stage. Setting up nicely for pivot usmash if they don't tech.

I didn't notice i could get nair because I forgot about airdodge landing lag.

-----------

Lastly, still trying to grind out proper edgeguarding coverage. My mentality is to cover as many options as possible, for as long as possible, as safely as possible (i.e without using a jump), since if you get hit out of it, you'll die. Also, if you use a jump that means waiting a bit before sjping otherwise you won't snap, and jump frames add extra time too.

The best looking flowchart seems to stem from FH Fireball to cover the ledge grab while you get in position.

FH Fireball > SJP (to grab the ledge or punish jumps)

This seems best when you know there's no time to really edgeguard. If fireball hits, it can true combo into the stage spike sjp while you grab the ledge. If it misses and they still grab you get a trump chance or maybe even stage spike with the ledge grab hitbox.

In my experience, it's best to ledge jump instead of going for the raw trump against a lot of chars. Bair isn't very strong and doesn't actually confirm from a trump on a lot of characters.

Ledge jump lets you pressure buffered options as well as a potential regrab still.

FH Fireball > Cape In > Uair > SJP

This lets you cover the ledge grab with 4 hitboxes very quickly. You can also hold in after the cape to grab the ledge if they went past you or deeper. Uair DOES STAGE SPIKE when you hit with it like this.

Can also bair/fair if they airdodged while you caped.

This seems optimal for edgeguarding recoveries you have to try getting the 2-frame of. Like sheik, sonic, luigi, etc.

FH Fireball > Cape out > Bair/Cape in > SJP

Same as above, but a fair bit harder since you need to b-reverse AND angle SJP up to make it back without a jump.

*Note: Cape out > Uair doesn't work, you can't make it back without a jump. Bair pushes mario in a bit which is why he can make it back.

This seems best to challenge recoveries that can't be challenged head on. Like Marth, Luigi, and Mario himself.

The cape out will cover a high recovery, the bair a slightly later one, and sjp a very late one.

I was also looking into optimal coverage while holding the ledge. Since it's lower, these don't really apply.

The main options I found were:

Cape > Cape > SJP

Ledge drop uair > SJP

Ledge drop bair > SJP

(For bair, make sure to space it inward to cover 2-frame and angle sjp up so you can make it back with no jump after)

Not sure which is best usually yet. I like double cape since it's easiest and lets you react to stuff better. Can also sjp right after the first if your timing is off, you won't snap if you do it right away but it's often untechable when done like this. Not incredibly punishable if you're reacting to their recovery, too.

If you delay the cape a bit, you will snap though. But then it's only one hitbox so idk.

Overall, I'm starting to think of cape as a half jump when edgeguarding. I think just throwing it out might be the best way to start most edgeguards.

 

[DunnoBro]

Alright, some really interesting stuff with SJP for ledge coverage. I did this vs rosalinas for a long time because it killed luma, but recently I decided to try it vs other characters and it still just functions well.

Holding shield around where you'd be able to standing grab a standard get-up, and timing sjp properly guarantees it'll hit standard. (And it's even more lenient since people tend to jab/grab/roll anticipating your grab)

It can also get roll, but only with 1 hit and hits them into the stage. Can also get ledge jump, but usually hits them in also.

Also, if they hit your shield here with ledge rising you can air grab release > fludd them with NO JUMP. A little too far/high for that and you can sjp for a similar situation. If they go behind you, usmash.

In general I'm finding nair the best on-reaction roll punish. Usmash isn't fast or enough range to hit from there unless you were charging beforehand. (Vs taller characters it can hit the standard of it's worth doing tho)

For ledge jump, it's best to just wait in shield till they take an option or get in range for usmash/bair. It won't hit them back offstage usually but it's something meaty.

Fludd from neutral pretty much just ensures they will grab the ledge, it can't set up for an edgeguard vs most chars unless they tried recovering high. At which time, sjp from this position still works wonders. (can't react to it like they can bair)

The hardest punish off regular shield is low backhitting dsmashes like sonic/fox. So be careful vs them. Powershield low hitting fsmashes generally work though. So be careful! For this reason, it's best to only do this at percents you need damage and info. At actual kill percents, using that info for usmash/grabs is much better.

If you're at high percent and they're low percent, fthrow > fludd is really potent too.

Characters like luigi, ike, fox, etc can die if they buffer a special while getting fludded. No DI while getting fludded + using a special by the blastzone.

 

[DunnoBro]

After testing, nair seems best for ledge coverage at kill percents. It sets up for a hard fludd push which sets up any character for an edgeguard. Soft hit can also confirm into usmash if you get a spotdodge/roll.

Not sure what to do with nairing ledge jumps though. Fludd? It is the perfect angle for it.

Also, Jab Jab > Cape seems like a safe version of jab jab fsmash. Similar to fsmash, while slow it pulls mario's hurtbox back. It's also a bit faster, so it'll work better at low percents (when you want damage and don't need to take big risks)

Working on this, I think using cape as frontal coverage to punish landings in front of you might be pretty good. (Issues arise when they planned on empty landing though, since they can react with quick aerials) It's essentially a safer, more rewarding fsmash at low percent.

 

[DunnoBro]

Potentially something big, or at least really freaking helpful in the luigi MU.

If you doublejump airdodge into the ledge, you can snap to it immediately by caping. Almost like a tether.
While you can also upb, at closer ranges you'll be forced to overshoot the ledge. It seems like at the ranges cape stops auto-snapping you, sjp will so that works out.

 

[moofpi]

Dunnobro, you may be the only one posting here, but thank you so much for all of these updates and your thought processes as you lab through options and later find more optimal options. I'm sitting here just binging on it. It really helps visualize what you're going for and why. I'm so ready to start using cape more in my offensive and airdodge-waiting games. All these fludd strategies are brilliant.

I'm sorry I have nothing to contribute but a little feedback, I am garbarge at labbing and have very few friends that ever want to dedicate to working on certain combos and set ups. So once again, thank you for all your hardwork and pushing the plumber's meta.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dunnobro, you may be the only one posting here, but thank you so much for all of these updates and your thought processes as you lab through options and later find more optimal options. I'm sitting here just binging on it. It really helps visualize what you're going for and why. I'm so ready to start using cape more in my offensive and airdodge-waiting games. All these fludd strategies are brilliant.

I'm sorry I have nothing to contribute but a little feedback, I am garbarge at labbing and have very few friends that ever want to dedicate to working on certain combos and set ups. So once again, thank you for all your hardwork and pushing the plumber's meta.

No prob man, appreciate it.

Also, labbed Uthrow stuff some more, instead of trying to turn around with cape, turn around with landing fireballs. It accomplishes the same thing but with a relevant hitbox, and very consistently hits DI away, true "combos" into fludd still. Also, fludd doesn't work too well with platforms, but fireballs do.

I still don't know what to do about DI in though. You'd think usmash but it gets stuffed so easily, fsmash too. Had the most success with walking, crouching, dash attacking, and dsmashing (Crouch > U/Dtilt beats a lot on reaction too). With fireball cutting off hard DI-away options, the speed of walking lets you cover plenty of options still. (Fireball also lets you cover momentum burst options like monkey flip)

The reduced hurtbox of dsmash/dash attack beats a lot of frontal swoop moves, like sheik/marth fair. They can hit them, but they'd have to be unsafe on shield then. Hitting someone with no jump is still really good, since they get popped up at a good angle for fludd.

When I tried usmashing, they very often landed on the wrong side since they were hard DIing in. Also turning around to try getting them in front of me took extra time, making usmash take about 12 frames. Dsmash is 5 for front, 14 for back... So outside of not being able to do it out of dash (which isn't necessary in this situation) it seems better.

Now, I almost always get or could've got something off uthrow. The big issue now is what to do if they actually get hit by the fireball. Usually it knocks them offstage, with no jump, unable to grab the ledge... But mario doesn't have great dropzone edgeguards.

Fludd works if they try to recover too soon, but I think FH Fireball > Nair > SJP might be most consistent. The fireball also covers quick recoveries, nair and SJP cover later ones. (Bair instead of nair works better for recoveries like marth, ryu, and mario)

 

[DunnoBro]

Also some fthrow stuff, I've started trying to DJ fireball to space it to hit them if they don't jump. If they try to airdodge it, you can fair/nair/sjp or at the very least fludd. Most people are jumping over it though, and so I try sjping them when they do. Sets up good for a better edgeguard than just the fthrow would.

If they'd airdodge when you'd sjp, you should be safe by grabbing the ledge. Can also read it for fair or a smash.

This seems pretty optimal when you don't have space to run since you're on the ledge.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's still theory, but due to mario's "Bubble" of coverage it might be optimal at times to roll when trying to catch landings.

The main reason being it's easier to mix up the opponent's DI and landing pattern due to the quicker ability to return to your start position already turned around by rolling rather than dashing. It also puts you in a better spot to punish landings/preemptive aerials than dashing would've due to the intangibility.

Mario has one of the better rolls in sm4sh. Coupled with his insane roll wake-ups (Usmash/Dsmash, and shield grabs) this makes just keeping his bubble mobile pretty important imo.

A biiig bonus to this working is if they do a preemptive fair or other move that won't hit you once behind, a full hop uair hitting a falling opponent kill confirms suuuuper good. Either into dair or uair > uair > SJP for very wide, albeit inconsistent percents.

 

[DunnoBro]

blhblah forget

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, while Fludd > Shield > Usmash is a proven viable bait even at high level play, it lacks safeness and consistency vs most of the cast.

I'm finding Fludd > Shield > SH Airdodge to be a similarly rewarding option with far more safety and options. Boasting the ability to punish both grabs AND dash attacks, as well as pressure wary opponents still in shield.

Falling uair kill confirms from wide but inconsistent percents into Dair, Fair, or SJP. Dair > Dsmash is more consistent but you can't cross up shield and combo into it usually, unfortunately.

 

[DunnoBro]

Something that helps in the bayo MU is to jumping airdodge towards her landings, timing it to end when she lands.

This seems superior to going for a shield grab since it's both more consistent, safe, and rewarding. (Falling uair/dair gives more reward than dthrow usually)

Might help get the landing of other characters, but works most effectively on bayo due to the endlag mechanic mitigating the time you spend in airdodge.

 

[Megamang]

Why cant you cross up shield with the dair dsmash combo? Im still figuring out Mario, trying to see why it wouldnt worn. If turning around is too slow, what about RAR dair?

 

[DunnoBro]

Why cant you cross up shield with the dair dsmash combo? Im still figuring out Mario, trying to see why it wouldnt worn. If turning around is too slow, what about RAR dair?

Cause you need to space it to be behind them, but if you get the backhit they'll pop behind you so at best you'll get a grab, tilt, or maybe uair.

Bair maybe on floaties at super high percent.

Anyway, small discovery with ledge coverage. As some of you may know if you grab the ledge with SJP instead of cape or regular trumps, you get the frame 3 hitbox while grabbing. This stage spikes if invincibility has run out, and also hits people who dropped down.

In addition to this, it punishes people for holding down to try and counter trump, as well as just hits people if your ledge grab timing is a bit off.

Another added bonus both the visual and audio cues are the same as a regular trump. (No yellow cape or swish effect to help the opponent react better)

With this covering EVERY option but the traditional ledge jump, roll, and standard and forcing the opponent into an option within a certain time frame it more efficiently sets up for ledge reads.

Usmash covers roll and jump around the same time by just doing it around the same time you'd do a trump, to feign it. It doesn't cover standard at this timing, but with the low endlag it becomes a 50/50 for another usmash or a turnaround grab. (Since you're facing away, it can catch roll)

Down-angle fsmash also covers ledge jump. Which is a popular option, but only worth if they show that habit.

For some larger characters, it seems like the sjp can hit them on the ledge jump too though into the stage. Perhaps jab locks with platforms? Not too helpful in general.

 

[DunnoBro]

Perhaps something to help in the m2 MU:

Dthrow > Cape seems to cover both airdodge, and DJ away until 20~%

Dthrow > uair > cape is also a true combo around 40-60% though this seems less helpful since we can usually get the traditional uair strings here. (There may be potential by dairing m2 when cape forces him to jump above a mario with rage to kill)

Technical stuff why this should work:

1: Dthrow is weight dependent so unlike other large characters, mario suffers less endlag next to this huge body. However, m2's gravity and airdodge typically disallow mario to take much advantage of this.

2: M2's DJ is SLOW. The DJ and airdodge endlag are covered by a buffered cape.

3: M2 lacks a dragon punch like other slow DJ chars such as ness or luigi. So there's no need to worry about those before cape can come out when m2 is leaving tumble. His options while turned away from the opponent are also rather weak. He has nothing to stop mario from just regrabbing.

 

[Red Stache]

DunnoBro, you probably don't get a lot of thanks for it, but I along with others really appreciate your lab work and findings you discover.

Life gets busy for me, so I don't get a lot of time to be online and discuss match-ups, tech, or things like that.
It makes me happy and thankful that when I can, I can come to this thread and read all this data and findings you have presented.

I want to improve my Mario play, and push myself further. I want to get better at playing the game, and using Mario's tools he has to the best of my ability. And I am thankful I can learn more here. Even though I have a long way to go.

You helped me realize too, that I need to practice and use FLUDD more in situations that appear or are provided, as well as ledge-play after I master his basics.

Thank you a lot, DunnoBro!
Just know your hard work does not go to waste.

 

[DunnoBro]

DunnoBro, you probably don't get a lot of thanks for it, but I along with others really appreciate your lab work and findings you discover.

Life gets busy for me, so I don't get a lot of time to be online and discuss match-ups, tech, or things like that.
It makes me happy and thankful that when I can, I can come to this thread and read all this data and findings you have presented.

I want to improve my Mario play, and push myself further. I want to get better at playing the game, and using Mario's tools he has to the best of my ability. And I am thankful I can learn more here. Even though I have a long way to go.

You helped me realize too, that I need to practice and use FLUDD more in situations that appear or are provided, as well as ledge-play after I master his basics.

Thank you a lot, DunnoBro!
Just know your hard work does not go to waste.

No problem, to be honest I largely just post my findings here for my own benefit but I'm glad to hear others benefit from it.

Also, after more testing it seems like dthrow > cape is true vs the majority of the cast. I don't know percents yet, but it's far more consistent with any rage. Essentially, if you see them enter tumble from dthrow or uair, cape will at least be safe to try.

Dthrow > SH cape seems to be the most consistent, and rewarding point. The percents for this are just when dthrow > utilt stops working. Since it warps outward DI inward for a landing uair, mario's most potent combo starter.

Of course, while the potential reward is higher than just going for uair strings, the consistent reward is lower in most matchups.

This seems mostly optimal on characters who have airdodges you can't punish by just baiting (psi boyz/m2) but it could have comeback combo potential.

Rage uair > dair can kill around 60-80. The uair strings are more potent from a falling uair too.

Some important notes:

*Fortunately, unlike if you were try caping a landing or non-tumble opponent, cape doesn't seem to reset their input to the more optimal direction.

Ex: If you were to cape a marth not in hitstun who was inputting fair, it'd turn into bair. However, out of tumble it stays fair and goes the wrong direction. Meaning they WILL have to buffer bair, which could get them fsmashed if you just baited for an airdodge

*Caping a DJ causes them to go higher than normal, often straight up if they want to lose the cape effect. Killing momentum and making it easier to catch their landing, or even fludd them off with no dj.

*Cape is 5 frames faster than fair. So despite the momentum loss, you should be able to true combo and frame trap into it in similar situations to fair. It has less lag and stalls mario in the air, so it's also less risky to go for offstage.

*Unfortunately, if they DI in they go outward and too far for a follow-up. Not sure the best punish for inward DI yet (Though uair > dair can kill at times) Could just fludd.

 

[DunnoBro]

If you didn't already have enough reasons to hate FD as mario, I got some more.

After testing, I found fludding someone coming off the ledge is far more threatening with over-stage platforms.

They either need to land on the platform and risk a mario platform combo, or retreat to ledge (often with no invincibility) Mario also retains safety just trying for SJP, since he can grab the ledge or mix up his landing with said platform. SJPing someone with no jump is VERY worth it, trust me.

On FD, and Smashville people have sooo much freedom when landing after getting fludded. And they're not really scared of a mario aerial without platforms to assist the combo. The platforms also discourage landing aerials like Cloud Dair, Marth fair, etc.

Of course, smashville is still fine. Especially in matchups where bthrow is especially potent or edgeguards are especially weak (bayo, sheik, etc)

T&C's First set of platforms are especially potent.

Since the most popular stages are FD and Smashville, it took me actually sitting down and looking at the situations fludd creates with consistent over-stage platforms.

Luckily, with the stage strike system mario can almost guarantee he plays on these stages. I suggest striking FD after winning game 1. (Unless it's ness, lucas, or cloud)

Duck hunt is kind of weird, not really great or consistent but they do help.

 

[DunnoBro]

Some SJP stuff:

-If the opponent is DIing away after dthrow and mario has no room to run for fair/bair, a suicide SJP kills pretty consistently on non-bf/dl stages.

Often you don't need to suicide on smashville.

-Dthrow > SJP remains a true combo until moderately high percents and I believe is very underutilized. Approximately 20-30% after uair stops true comboing. As a general rule of thumb, if usmash would kill after an airdodge, sjp is true. If they'd still be too high after an airdodge, sjp is not true.

SJP is much more appealing to try airdodging due to the promise of a punish after, so it can set up for bair/usmash better.

-Dthrow > SJP is a very similar angle and knockback to bthrow. Consistently forcing people offstage even when your back is already to the ledge on most stages. So I think it's a superior option than staling bthrow just for stage control

Ledge Stuff:

Utilt lingers 6 frames and has 8 frames less FAF than dash attack (30, only 2 more than fox's). It covers ledge jump and has little enough endlag to properly pressure other options.

Due to the low register, it can kill confirm into uair/dair/sjp

However, unlike fox's it does not hit all characters on the ledge. I do think it has potential vs the characters it does work on though.