Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[Cobbler]

I just got in as well! Thanks.

So, I'm just going to post a huge train of my thoughts about the game so far.

I've personally never had any interest in stamina mode.

Not having ledges will take some getting used to. I'm no designer, but maybe have edges of the stages be angled, to help people recover when they're close?

Some of the sound effects are really satisfying, like whiffing Orcana's forward tilt and Zetterburn's third jab. Some nice chomping sounds.

Also, maybe I'm incorrect, but it seems like the majority of moves come out really fast. Like, 5 frames or less, if I'm not mistaken? For me, it kind of makes the combos...less satisfying sometimes. Like I didn't really have to time it correctly, I just kinda did it.

Orcana's Fair is really cool. At first it was frustrating, because I would try to use it as a follow-up and it would just be bubbles. But then I figured out how to do it backwards, it was a game changer.

I really like the air smash attack idea. It feels really good. I know you said character 3 is unfinished, but I'm wondering: are his non-smash aerials suppose to be so juggleable, with basically a set knock back and zero kill potential, or is that just unfinished?

Theres something weird feeling about the relation of the blast zones and the camera. I don't know what it is exactly. Like, the blast zones feel close ont he sides, but far on the top? Not sure what's really going on there.

When I turn hitboxes on, sometimes there's a little crosshair, along with the arrow. Is the crosshair a sweetspot? On that note, are there any moves that spike?

Speaking of hitboxes, there are two things that were odd.
1) On character 3, there's some weird stuff going on with the hitbox of his non-smash down air. Sometimes it just sticks there after the move is over, even though there's not an actually active hit box. I've been able to replicate it somewhat consistently by dying mid-down air and occasionally it happens when I use the move twice in a row.

2) With Orcana, his hurtbox is Zetterburn-sized at the beginning of the round, and then it becomes the correct side after ducking. I cant tell if it's actually incorrect, or if it's just a visual bug, because I don't have anyone here to take over P2 and try to hit me, at the moment.

Is there any way to get a Gamecube controller working reasonably? I'm currently using Xpadder, and it basically works, but I don't know how to get the C-stick working and dashing feels bad because I have to double tap. I could use my 360 controller, but playing not on a Gamecube controller just feels wrong.

 

[Puppyfaic]

I have no Xinput controllers so I've been using Xpadder as well. Also, yes, my DirectX is the latest possible version. Thegame also does not run at full speed if there are over 2 players, and the game slows down IMMENSELY during Character Select after picking my first character.

My current thoughts:

1. Orcane feels vastly underpowered compared to the other two characters. It seems like it'd be impossible to fight around his puddle as well if players are aware of it, as they just won't go near it. His Up-B is also very telegraphed, making it easy to parry if he attempts to recover.

2. The third character is ... interesting. However, one glaring design flaw is the ability to stall for WAY too long in the air given that he's completely still while charging his attacks. I'd recommend some sort of attack limit per air-time on those moves, similar to how you're only allowed one air-dodge per air-time.

3. Zetterburn feels almost too easy to use. He's very, very mash-friendly. I still recommend changing his moves to not be a Wolf clone.

4. I end up Smashing a lot when I don't want to. Maybe you could take a hint from Smash Bros. Crusade and implement a separate button entirely for Smashes?

I'll email all the bugs I've found so far.

 

[Mum]

The game feels great, its a very solid alpha indeed. Its so easy to just pick up and play. First impressions of the Rivals:

Zetterburn: Very easy to pick up, but maybe too mash-friendly. Im not sure yet if he feels strong because he's so similar to wolf and fox, or if he is actually a bit overpowered.

Orcane: Interesting. It seems a bit hard to play around his puddle, but his recovery is really good if you make sure you always have it available. His puddle should disappear when he dies though, because if he loses all his lives, the puddle stays for the rest of the match. Also, maybe his puddle could cause other rivals to slip.

Wrastor: His aerial stall seems really strong, maybe shorten the chraging length, or make it so he still falls but way slower.

I will put more in depth opinions later, let me know what you guys think.

 

[Puppyfaic]

The game feels great, its a very solid alpha indeed. Its so easy to just pick up and play. First impressions of the Rivals:

Zetterburn: Very easy to pick up, but maybe too mash-friendly. Im not sure yet if he feels strong because he's so similar to wolf and fox, or if he is actually a bit overpowered.

Orcane: Interesting. It seems a bit hard to play around his puddle, but his recovery is really good if you make sure you always have it available.

[redacted]: His aerial stall seems really strong, maybe shorten the chraging length, or make it so he still falls but way slower.

I will put more in depth opinions later, let me know what you guys think.

You might wanna fix your post, there. No one's supposed to know anything about the third character except for playtesters yet.

 

[Freedom Cobra]

You might wanna fix your post, there. No one's supposed to know anything about the third character except for playtesters yet.

A guy streamed it on twitch, I'm not a playtester and I know.

 

[4nace]

You might wanna fix your post, there. No one's supposed to know anything about the third character except for playtesters yet.

On my phone. I'll have responses soon to everything! Thanks for the write ups and keep them coming.

In terms of Wrastor. He is unannounced in terms of the public but yes you can talk about him here and give feedback on his abilities. He will be announced officially but after fans and playtesters have seen him. Once his gameplay is solidified, he'll be part of a trailer like Orcane and Zetterburn were.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Not gonna lie, I'm pretty dissapointed by the lack of support on other consoles. I'm currently a Mac user (haha I know) and I plan on getting the WiiU and PS4. I'm hoping they come later.

If you're ever at a point where you want to test on those platforms, let me know.

 

[Tetiro]

On my phone. I'll have responses soon to everything! Thanks for the write ups and keep them coming.

In terms of Wrastor. He is unannounced in terms of the public but yes you can talk about him here and give feedback on his abilities. He will be announced officially but after fans and playtesters have seen him. Once his gameplay is solidified, he'll be part of a trailer like Orcane and Zetterburn were.

Interesting, got something to look forward to! From a Developer to Developer, I have a good question. How have you differed in a developer's perspective from what you did in Smash Land and now?

 

[4nace]

Interesting, got something to look forward to! From a Developer to Developer, I have a good question. How have you differed in a developer's perspective from what you did in Smash Land and now?

Well the most fun I had in Super Smash Land was making the original movesets to fight against the characters people were familiar with, so in that case, this game is a lot more fun to develop since all the movests are original. I did use Zetterburn as a measuring block which is why people familiar with the series should recognize the way he moves and feels.

I have also learned a good amount about game development and fighting games since then. When I made Super Smash Land, I would not have been able to make this game. The movement alone is much more complex and to feel good, requires a deeper understanding of both Smash and game design than I had in 2011.

Development-wise, I would say Rivals is a bit more stressful considering it is my full-time job rather than a hobbyist project. The aspirations are high but so is the pressure. Just tossing something in without being proud of it is harder than it was in Smash Land.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Development-wise, I would say Rivals is a bit more stressful considering it is my full-time job rather than a hobbyist project. The aspirations are high but so is the pressure. Just tossing something in without being proud of it is harder than it was in Smash Land.

So are you looking to profit from RoA then? As in, is it going to cost money?

 

[CaptainCrisb]

So are you looking to profit from RoA then? As in, is it going to cost money?

Judging by how it's being released on consoles as well, I'd say yeah.

 

[4nace]

So are you looking to profit from RoA then? As in, is it going to cost money?

Yup. Rivals of Aether will be available for purchase on Xbox One and PC . No price point yet, but it will be fair for the content available.

 

[Tetiro]

Well the most fun I had in Super Smash Land was making the original movesets to fight against the characters people were familiar with, so in that case, this game is a lot more fun to develop since all the movests are original. I did use Zetterburn as a measuring block which is why people familiar with the series should recognize the way he moves and feels.

I have also learned a good amount about game development and fighting games since then. When I made Super Smash Land, I would not have been able to make this game. The movement alone is much more complex and to feel good, requires a deeper understanding of both Smash and game design than I had in 2011.

Development-wise, I would say Rivals is a bit more stressful considering it is my full-time job rather than a hobbyist project. The aspirations are high but so is the pressure. Just tossing something in without being proud of it is harder than it was in Smash Land.

Original Movesets: I bet that was fun. Must require a great deal of balance. My fun these days come from designing and programming. For instance, my next small project is a Roller-Coaster Tycoon inspired game made in C# with XNA

Fighting Games: Man, 2011 was a long time ago. I knew nothing about Fighting Games back then. You were a great help with coming to understand the basics in AI. And it worked. I am very curious to know how the movement has been refined. I could see the attacks AI being refined too. I could pry into that, but that would be something better left to PM

Development Time: I feel your pain. I have been working on my RPG series full-time while looking for a job and it is very stressful due to the pressure. Last week, I had to redo an entire dungeon because I did not like it enough. I even scrapped some content as the dynamics of the game changed.

I do have some feedback to help you
A lot of the graphics look great, but some of the graphics may be looked down on by the players (for instance, un-animated flags)

Also if you have spare time, I suggest bringing a GB mode to your game. You know, as a reference to Smash Land. May not bring as much, but it would be a nice touch to your game.

 

[Zauron]

Hey 4nace this is Taron, aka the Volgarr dev, here with my first round of feedback. This is with only limited multiplayer testing, so there will likely be more to come. Most of this will be making comparisons to Melee, which is my preferred Smash game thus far.

Very excited with much of what I'm seeing so far, and in general excited to see a game like this going outside the boundaries of only Nintendo fans and hopefully showing that there's more to Smash's popularity than just fan-favorite characters fighting each other. There's room on the market for other games in the same style with original characters!

Apologies in advance, but I have a reputation for being entirely too verbose and detail-oriented in my feedback, and many people at first assume that I hate something and am ripping it apart just because I say a lot about it, but that isn't true at all, my experience thus far has been pretty positive. This is just the way I am (sorry). You may want to read this in multiple sessions instead of all at once...

Spoiler: The "Why did they just die?" issue - HUD

One thing we've noticed compared to playing Melee is a feeling of surprise when a player shoots off the screen to their death from a smash attack. Hence we realized that we were, in general, less aware at any given time exactly how damaged our opponent was, and thus not adjusting our approaches based on that as we would normally in Smash games.

First instinct here was to see if this was a problem with the HUD (side note: I applaud the decision to make the HUD separate from the play field, as I always found it annoying when it would overlap the action in Smash games). Right now the damage % is shown purely as a number. In the Smash games it also gradually changes color as it gets higher. This makes it a bit easier to see at a glance if an opponent is heavily damaged or not. That might make a difference.

On another side note, I think you should seriously consider an alternative way of expressing damage instead of as a percent. The % thing has always confused people when they first get into Smash. I mean, when it goes higher than 100%, one is forced to ask what exactly its a percentage OF. Of course those that study the systems understand what it means (100% of the scaling factor of the knockback value of an attack will be applied), but its still kinda weird and unintuitive. I'm not saying it should WORK any differently, but just expressed differently. I don't have a good alternative suggestion off-hand, other than just removing the meaningless % symbol and calling it just "damage", but something to think about...

Anyway, back to the problem with knowing how damaged an opponent is - it may be more than just the HUD involved here. For one thing, in order for the HUD to be useful one has to glance at it, and it seems that there's not much opportunity to do so in this game. Often a good time in Smash to glance at the HUD is during a grab - the defender is helpless for a moment, you glance at their damage % quickly, and then determine if you want to do a light throw and build up damage with a combo, or maybe fling them off the edge and begin edge-guarding via a strong throw. Right now this game doesn't have many lulls in the combat, which is great in some ways, but it does mean less opportunities to safely glance down at the HUD.

Thinking about this further though, I realized it may not really be the fault of the HUD at all... (see next section)

Spoiler: The "Why did they just die?" issue - knockback scaling

I realized that I don't actually depend on the HUD all that much in Smash to know how damaged I or my opponent is, I can "feel" it in the game itself pretty easily. But not so much in RoA. I believe the reason for this is that it seems many moves have very low knockback scale factor. High knockback scaling seems to be mostly reserved for obvious "finishing" attacks (mostly smash attacks).

Compare Zetterburn's up-tilt to Mario's, for example (comparing the respective "Ryu's" of each game). At low percent's Mario's can combo with itself, but by 50% or so he needs to jump to follow it up, and by 150% its knockback can start to kill on its own. Zetterburn's up-tilt can't really kill EVER, even at > 400%, and can still be combo'd with itself long past the 100% mark. In other words, the scaling of the knockback is barely noticable.

In Melee there were really 3 phases of combat based on an opponent's damage percent:

• Low-percent phase: Here the attacker focuses on building up damage by using combos, which are easy to perform especially on fast-falling characters. Getting a kill during this phase generally involves things like spikes, and is often considered a "gimp kill".
  
• Mid-percent phase (around 60-110%): Here combos stop working for much of the cast, and only a few have the speed and such necessary to still perform combos, though they are different in nature and often end with a finishing attack (a classic example being Captain Falcon combos ending in a knee). Most of the cast instead focuses on trying to get kills from edge guarding in this phase.
  
• High-percent phase (100%+): At this point most combos are out of the question beyond a couple quick base-knockback hits comboing directly into a finisher. Mostly the focus here is on getting that one solid hit from a smash attack, powerful throw, or finishing air attack to knock the opponent clean off the kill zone. Other attacks may be actively avoided, because they'll just send the opponent too far away for any follow-up but not far enough to kill them, leading to just waiting for them to return to the stage with easy recovery.

In RoA there appear to be a much more deliberate separation between moves with little-to-no knockback scaling (combo attacks), those with moderate knockback scaling (leads into edge guarding), and those with high knockback scaling (finishers), compared to Melee where most moves had similar scaling factor (the most obvious exception being multi-hit attacks like the built-in jab combos where the first hits had very low scaling so they could lead into the final hit that had high scaling).

The result of this deviation is that the combos you would only see in the low-percent phase in Melee are possible into high percents in RoA, and those rare combos you'd see in the mid-percent phase from only certain match-ups (which lead directly into a finisher) are possible from mid-percent all the way up to even very high percents like 200+.

This may be your concious intention, to add more excitement by eliminating the phase of combat where the knockback is too high to combo but not high enough to kill. If so, that's of course an entirely legitimate design choice, BUT it does make it much more difficult to intuitively tell how damaged fighters are, because you can't look at the knockback of the majority of attacks as a clue since there is so little change from all the non-finisher attacks. Instead you have to depend on paying close attention to how much that player has been hit since they last died, or try as much as possible to glance at the HUD, find which HUD element refers to the character, read a 2-3 digit number, and process its meaning, all with little opportunity to do so "safely" due to the fast pace of the game.

I would suggest if you want to stick with this departure from the typical 3 phases of Smash combat (by having so many attacks with low knockback scaling) that you consider some alternate methods of indicating damage level beyond just the number in the HUD. Maybe some color change or particle effects or something on a damaged opponent when they hit certain threshholds.

Spoiler: On Technical Barriers vs Depth (referenced in later sections)

I prefer to look at each game mechanic in a fighting game in two ways - the technical skill required to utilize it, and the tactical depth it offers to the combat.

A Technical Barrier refers to the sequence of buttons that must be pressed with correct timing in order to execute an action in the game, and how much practice it takes for someone to be able to perform it consistantly under the pressure of combat with other players. Some players feel this is very important, others feel it should be avoided.

Depth refers to how well the mechanic supports alternate tactics and counters. In general, the more options available to each player in a given situation, and the more counters to those options, and counters to those counters, and so on, the "deeper" the combat system is. This is almost universally appreciated in competitive play, as it raises the longevity of the game as more counters and counters-to-counters and so on are found, and adds to the mind games and such during play.

Some players and devs claim that they are one and the same, and that Technical Barriers are needed to add Depth to the game. I thought this myself at one point, but now I know that's not true at all. In fact, I think its what makes Smash so compelling - compared to typical fighters, it has low Technical Barriers (executing moves is mostly just a single button with a direction rather than a complex sequence of directions and buttons) yet high tactical Depth (such as in the combo system, where DI and the variations in knockback from weight, damage %, etc mean that even during a combo both players must be using predictions to continue or break the combo, rather than just having the defender wait and hope the attacker messes up their pre-memorized combo sequence).

Thus I feel the "spirit of Smash design" is for each mechanic to strive for a low Technical Barrier yet high tactical Depth, though in same cases a small amount of Technical Barrier may be worth it if a large amount of Depth is added along with it. In fact I have started to consider this the holy grail of good game design in general, incorporating it as much as possible into my own game designs.

Spoiler: Air Dodge System

I think you really have a great implementation of Air Dodge here. Directional (Melee-style) air-dodging not only gives a lot more versatility in how a dodge can be used, but it also makes the dodges much more readable due to the momentum-cancelling. Momentum retaining (Brawl-style) air dodges are often difficult to notice in the heat of battle, with many characters already twisting and spinning in their jump animations anyway.

Then on top of that, having you be able to perform attacks after the dodge opens up a whole 'nother level of Tactical Depth, which is great! As much as I preferred Melee's dodges over Brawl's, I can't deny that at high levels of play and outside its use for Wavedashing that air dodging wasn't really utilized that much in Melee, because it rarely left the player in an advantageous position. Plus players accidentally air-dodging to their death was always a disappointing way to lose a stock.

Being able to directionally air-dodge and then follow up with other actions opens so many possibilities that I have to imagine it will see MUCH more use and add some serious Depth to the game, but having the dodge still limited to only one use until landing prevents it from being abused heavily like it was in Brawl (and obviously infinite directional air-dodges would just be all kinds of broken).

So yeah, kudos on that!

Also glad it doesn't break you out of hitstun early, that was the worst idea ever in Brawl.

However, I think the air dodge invincibility frames need to be moved to sooner in the animation. The invincibility starts later than it does on the ground dodges, which is odd since its the opposite in Melee. I often feel I correctly dodged an attack that hit me in the beginning of the dodge. I'd even be happy seeing the dodge have invincibility on the very first frame, with more vulnerability frames at the end of the dodge to compensate.

Also I have further thoughts specifically regarding how the air dodge works when you hit the ground (wavedashing) but I'll cover that in another section. There's also a bug with it in the Misc. section at the end.

Spoiler: Landing lag and L-cancelling

I noticed there's no L-cancelling and air attacks overall have have very little landing lag, with the vast majority just using the standard land animation.

I just wanted to say, even though I spent the time to master SHFFL's myself, I don't think you should add extra air lag and then L-cancelling, and you should ignore players that ask for it. L-cancelling is purely a Technical Barrier. It offers absolutely no tactical Depth whatsoever. Unlike almost every other advanced technique in Smash, there's absolutely no situation where a player should purposefully NOT L-cancel an air attack. Therefore it adds no additional options (you'd never say "should I L-cancel this air attack or not?" - of course you should!) or counters (all pro players assume all airials from their opponents will be L-cancelled).

In fact, I'd wager that if you somehow secretly hacked Melee to make all L-cancel's automatic and used it at a tournament, that not a single pro player would notice the change, since they all L-cancel every single air attack anyway.

That said, having some powerful air attacks with a decent amount of landing lag can be useful for balancing and to give an opportunity to punish players for using it carelessly, which I'm all for, but I'm cool with the majority having very little lag.

Spoiler: Wavedashing, Dash Dancing, and alternatives

I'll probably get a lot of hate for this, and be called a hypocrite considering that in my tournament days I mained Luigi and abused the hell of of Wavedashing, but I actually feel that Wavedashing, as it was implemented in Melee, is not a mechanic that should be kept around.

The reason I feel this way is that, while Wavedashing adding a ton of Depth to the combat (unlike L-cancelling), it also had a high Technical Barrier, requiring a quick sequence of presses that rivaled the complexity of traditional fighting games and could be severely punished if performed slightly wrong. It also, quite frankly, looked pretty rediculous.

Some have said that you can't have directional air dodging and Smash-like physics without introducing Wavedashing, but that's ludicrous. As the programmer, you know exactly what state the player is in when they land, so you could just stop all momentum if they land during an air dodge if you really wanted to stop it that way.

There are better ways I think to handle it though. For example, you could make it so air-dodging into the ground cancels the air dodge into a ground-dodge (perhaps skipping some of the frames of the ground dodge so this can't be used to extend invincibility time). Or, maybe allow Wave-landing (something that doesn't look as rediculous as Wavedashing and is considerably easier to perform) but prevent Wavedashing by making it so you can't air dodge at all for the first few frames after a jump from the ground, thus by the time you can air-dodge it won't really be a Wavedash at all, but just a downward air-dodge back to the ground.

Now as said, Wavedashing did add Depth to the combat, so what I've long thought is that it should be included in some form in Smash games, but it should become something much easier to execute to eliminate the Technical Barrier. I would probably even be satisfied with leaving it in the game if there were another, much-easier-to-perform mechanic that did the same thing, thus taking away any motivation to use it.

The main thing Wavedashing offered is the ability to quickly move toward or away from an opponent while still maintaining the full ability to use all available actions that you would be able to from an idle state. If the game offered an easy way to do that, problem solved! The most obvious mechanic to look at to offer similar functionality is the basic Dash mechanic.

So why is Wavedashing better than just normal Dashing? Because normal Dashing restricts the actions that can be performed during the dash - in Melee you can pretty much only do a dashing attack, up smash, jump, or crouch, and you can't even stop or turn around without being locked in a skidding animation. You could grab too but the dashing grab was laggy without using special tricks to cancel the dash first. But what if that wasn't the case? What if the basic Dash could be used like Wavedashing, where you could perform any move you wanted out of it?

Well turns out that RoA already has taken steps in that direction, with no skid or turn-around lag animations. You can let go of the stick to stop the dash immediately and perform another action. However its not quite to the point where its as versatile as Wavedashing, so what I'd like to propose is some adjustments to the dash to make it more versatile, and consider cutting Wavedashing (perhaps by that delay before you can air-dodge suggestion).

One thing I noticed is that you can right-stick an up smash directly during the dash, but if you right-stick any other direction it goes into the dash attack instead. Why not change it so all right-stick smashes can come directly out of the dash, including a side-smash in the opposite direction? Then you could dash away and quickly attack behind you, like you could with a back Wavedash into a forward smash in Melee. It would also be nice if you could dash away and then turn and forward-smash in the opposite direction without needing the right stick, but right now attempting that always results in a quick dash attack in the opposite direction instead . You can already perform a down tilt or up tilt, or jab directly out of a dash, since the dash stops instantly when you move your stick direction to just up or down or release it for the jab. If the above changes were made to allow all smash attacks directly out of the dash, the only thing that would be difficult to perform at any time during the dash would be the forward tilt, since continuing to hold forward during the dash and then pressing attack would be the one way to still perform the dash attack, but I think that's acceptable.

However another element that prevents the Dash being as useful as it could be is that it isn't very fast movement at the start, so it can't really be used to dodge back or quickly approach as well as Wavedashing could. Now in Smash, all the dashes started with a quick burst of speed with the character kind of hopping forward quickly, then dropped into a slower but consistant running animation if you continued to hold forward. This burst of speed is what was used for other advanced techniques like Dash Dancing and Fox Trotting. However, Dash Dancing also had a high Technical Barrier to use properly due to the need for 1-frame windows to execute non-dash attacks out of it.

I think you should consider including that burst of speed when you first start dashing, but still allow it to be cancelled at any time into an attack. In fact, like Wavedashing, I think if it is cancelled into an attack that you should still have the forward momentum from that speed burst, so you kind of "slide into" your attack. I also think though that if the player doesn't specically cancel it into an attack or other action, that the initial hop-forward burst-of-speed animation should play out to just before the point where it would normally drop into a run before returning to idle, even if they aren't pressing forward any more. You also shouldn't be able to cancel the initial burst of speed into another burst-of-speed in the same direction by tapping forward again a second time, you should only be able to cancel it into actual actions like attacks, jumps, rolls, parry, etc. This restriction would make it a bit more punishable like a Wavedash was (and also look a bit better in animation to not have the quick hop forward interrupted by just idle).

These adjustments would give the benefits of Wavedashing and Dash Dancing without the high Technical Barrier they had in Melee. Despite what some players felt about them, these techniques were not in themselves overpowered, since they didn't add invincibility frames or anything, they just added to the movement options the player had and therefore increased the game's Depth. Many modern fighting games employ similar abilities to quickly approach and retreat, often by double-tapping forward or back , so its not an idea unique to Melee, it was just an overly-complex method of performing it.

Spoiler: Tumbling, wake-up, and Tech-ing

I noticed that there is no tumbling state in this game, when hit stun is over the character just recovers immediately. This means there's also no "lying on the ground" state. The other result of this is that there is very very few opportunities to use Teching, such that for a while I thought it wasn't in the game at all.

It didn't work so well in Brawl, but in Melee the tumbling, teching, and wake-up systems added a lot to the Depth of the combat, with only a minor amount of Technical Barrier. One reason for this is that unlike Brawl, in Melee pressing the Dodge button did NOT break you out of a tumble (despite other buttons like attack and even wiggling the stick doing so), making it much easier to tech with it instead (in Brawl since you broke out of tumble easily with the dodge button, you'd end up just air dodging just before you hit the ground rather than teching). This, combined with the slower fall speed in Brawl, is why you see a LOT more teching in Melee matches than Brawl matches.

The various options one had when about to land from a Tumble in Melee definitely added to the Depth of the combat though, so not having it here is a loss in that department. Tech Chasing was an excellent example of prediction and countering that I would use to demonstrate the principles of combat depth when explaining Smash to players of other fighting games. I would totally understand if the work wasn't worth it to you or if you felt it over-complicated the gameplay, but I do feel that having a proper tumble->lying on the ground mechanic would make teching a much bigger factor in the game and that would by extension greatly add to the Depth of the combat system. Right now the only thing I've found teching useful for is if you get spiked to the ground as a way to prevent you from bouncing back up into another attack.

I'm also admitedly disappointed that you can't wall-tech or wall-jump-tech, since that would be useful on the stage that actually has a wall mid-stage, as well as lead to more potential interesting off-the-ledge combat situations. If you don't want to do a full tumble->lying down->tech system please consider at least including wall-teching.

All that said, I can't say without a lot more multiplayer experience if this is going to remain a sorely-missed feature or not in the long run.

Spoiler: Off-the-ledge combat and a crazy idea I had

One big obvious change from Smash to RoA is removing grabbing the ledge. At first, I thought that sounded crazy, but the more I thought about it and the reasons you gave for it in one of your interviews, the more it seemed like it wasn't such a crazy idea at all. While there's no question that grabbing the ledge added to the Depth of the combat system, it also added some Technical Barrier, and, perhaps more importantly, seemed to add a whole bunch of problems with balance and feel. I mean, Smash has changed its ledge grabbing systems multiple times now trying to get it right, and it remains to be seen how Smash 4's solutions will play out. Things like Planking are frustrating, Brawl's auto-sweetspot ledge-grabbing gimped edge-guarding techniques, and even though I consider edge-hogging a legitimate strategy and do it myself, it always seemed a kinda lame way to get a kill (not to mention it really makes no sense when my rolling character is clearly off the ledge yet somehow the other guy still can't grab it until my roll animation is done).

Thinking about it more, I can totally see how removing ledge grabbing would not only save on work but may be the best way to solve all the issues it has once and for all, especially if you stick to your current stage design of having the main platform have a wall going all the way down that some of the recovery moves can use to help get up over the edge.

That said, the loss of Depth in the oft-exciting off-the-ledge battles in Smash may really hurt RoA's long term appeal. In thinking about this, I was trying to think of other ways that Depth could be added, by adding more options when off-the-edge in the absense of ledge grabbing.

One crazy idea I had was to add wall-jumping in this game, implemented as it was in Melee (just tap away from the wall to jump away from it rather than using the jump button, so game doesn't have to guess if you meant to do a wall jump or a double jump since they have different inputs). But, take it a bit further, and also allow wall-jumping at the end of moves that go into a helpless state and have doing so break them out of the helpless state.

So, for example, Zetterburn uses his recovery move but doesn't make it all the way up above the wall, but he gets close enough to touch the wall. He then has a small window of opportunity where he can wall-jump away from that wall and try the recovery again. In another example, orcane could use his side-B to hit the wall and then jump off of it as an alternate recovery when his puddle is being camped or is missing.

Beyond recovery mix-ups though, wall-jumping could be used for fancy offensive tactics, like dropping off the side, wall jumping into an attack to intercept someone recovering, and then using double jump and recovery move to get back on to the stage, since the wall jump wouldn't take away the double-jump.

It was actually possible to do this in certain rare cases in Melee (specifically with Mario), and I had a lot of fun finding ways to take advantage of it myself to do off-the-edge mix-ups on both offense and defense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtLC_cYFKTs

To keep it from being abused by wall-jumping off the same wall repeatedly as a stall tactic, each Wall Jump could be severely reduced in height, until it no longer gains any height at all and the player would die, but it restores to normal by actually landing on solid ground (Melee did this already, but the reduction in height was very very small each jump so it wasn't well-known). Perhaps Wall Jumping off an opposite wall would not reduce the height as much as wall jumping off the same wall side, so they could still be used to recover well by wall-jumping back and forth up a "shaft", like in Melee's Fourside map, if you wanted to include something like that in a later stage design.

Wall jumping shouldn't require much on the art side, you really just need a single pose frame of the character up against the wall just before they jump off of it, hold that pose for a few frames, then could just use the standard jump animation if you want (though a full separate wall-jumping animation would also be cool). This same on-the-wall pose could then also be used for wall-teching and wall-jump-teching! You may need something in code that takes away air control for the first several frames of the wall jump though, so they can't wall-jump repeatedly off the same wall without the assistance of another move (recovery move, side-b, etc).

Wall jumping could also add a bit of Depth even on the stage in stages that have walls, like the second one that's in the game now. However I think if this mechanic is added that all characters should be able to do it, instead of restricting it to certain characters (after all in Melee technically all characters had wall-jump animations, because even Bowser could do a wall-tech-jump, they just couldn't wall jump when they weren't teching).

Spoiler: Parry system

Replacing shield and grab with parry is probably the biggest and most controversial change in RoA vs Smash and even other fighting games. Personally, I'm all for parrying, heck I've used it heavily to games I've made in the past (like Shinobi 3DS) with great success. I find it a much more exciting style of defense than blocking.

I saw in an interview you mentioned the classic triangle of fighting games where blocking counters attacks, attacks counter grabs, and grabs counter blocking, and that you were using Parry instead. But what I didn't understand, is if Parry counters attacks, what exactly counters Parry? I mean, if a player just decided to sit and wait for someone to attack them then Parry it, the RoA equivelant of turtling, what is the counter to that without a grab mechanic?

In fact Parry counters attacks much better than blocking ever did, since you don't have to worry about high vs low attacks and the correct block to use, shrinking shield and "shield pressure" tactics, or knowing which moves that you block would or would not give you a frame advantage to drop the shield and counter. A successful Parry gives you a 100% advantage over your attacker.

The only counter right now seems to be to try to bait a Parry by trying to fake out the opponent into thinking you are about to attack (besides just dealing with a player that isn't very good at timing the Parry yet), and I'm not sure if the recovery time on the Parry is enough of a punishment for that to work.

Anyway, maybe that won't be an issue, maybe pulling off the Parry timing is difficult enough that turtling with Parry won't be an option, I need much more play time and to convince someone (or try myself) to attempt Parry turtling to see just how effective it is, but it may be worth thinking about potential bigger counters to Parry. Perhaps un-parry-able attacks of some kind, or some way to do a "fake" attack that can't be Parried but makes the player try for one and then get punished, or even a counter-Parry attack that if it is Parried it causes the opposite effect and stuns the defender. I don't know if there's an easy answer here without complicating the game though, I'll have to get back to you on this one.

That aside, I'm also not entirely fond of the actual results of the Parry, with it having the attacker finish out their attack animation than stop all frozen and dark-colored and the defender becoming invincible. It seems a bit odd to me for some reason. I was expecting instead something like the attacker being stuck in their hit-pause for an extended time, longer than the hit-pause on the defender's side, and the defender's parry recovery animation then being immediately interruptable with an attack. The result being that the defender can immediately attack out of the parry and hit the attacker while they are still stuck in their hit-pause, rather than waiting until the entire attack animation finishes and depending on invincibility status.

Also, this may be a bug, but is it intentional that if you Parry one of the earlier Jab attacks in a nuetral A jab combo, that the attacker never goes into that stuck/vulnerable state unless they actually complete the jab combo and do the last hit? If you parry the first jab, they can freely jump/dodge away without ever going into the "parry punished" state as long as they don't do the rest of the attacks in the jab combo.

Spoiler: Grabs (and lack thereof)

I must admit, of all the things removed from classic Smash, the one I miss most so far is grabs. Not as a counter to blocking or laggy airals so much, but for their other uses, like acting as a "reset" into a new combo or giving me a brief moment to decide what I want to do next during my offense. I understand why you'd want to remove them though - they are notoriously problematic with priority issues and infinite grab exploits and so on, not to mention difficult to program correctly and often end up having weird bugs.

I think the time I most notice their absence is the lack of ability to "switch sides" with my opponent without having to dodge or jump past them. When my back is to the edge and my opponent is nearby, I want to be able to grab them and toss them behind me off the edge.

Perhaps it would help if there were other attacks that could be used in place of a grab to get the opponent on the other side of me. Like Dr. Mario's d-tilt in Melee that sent enemies behind him at a low trajectory.

Spoiler: The eternal "I thought I still had my double jump!" problem

Pretty minor point here, but a long-standing problem in Smash is when a player thinks they still had their double-jump, but its been so long ago they used it and they've been in the air so long (from being juggled and such) that they forget they used it already, and by the time they realize their jump isn't working, its too late for them to switch to an Up-B recovery and they die. I hear "I thought I still had my double jump" ALL the time in Smash matches, even with players that have been playing for well over a decade.

Many don't realize this, but there was technically a way to know (in Melee at least) if you had used up all your jumps or not: every character had a different standard falling animation they used based on whether or not they had used up their double-jump. However, this didn't really help much since often when a double-jump was desired you weren't in a standard fall animation anyway (possibly tumbling instead), and the difference between the two falling animations was pretty subtle.

Since its always been a problem in Smash, I obviously can't fault you for the same issue, but it would be nice if you exceeded Smash's readability in this regard somehow. I noticed you have an indicator to let players know if they've already used up their air-dodge since last landing - perhaps something like that for using up all your jumps could be included as well? Of course it would be even better if it didn't depend on looking at the HUD and taking your eyes off the fight, but at least it would be something...

Spoiler: Stale Moves

Personally, I don't care if these are implemented or not, but they don't appear to be at the moment. I've never been sure if they were actually a good addition. I will say, however, that if you do implement a Stale Moves mechanic, please follow the Melee model where it affects the damage of the attacks but does not affect their knockback. Affecting both damage and knockback in Brawl made it even more difficult than it already was to reliably pull off combos.

Spoiler: Character-specific notes - Wrastor

* Regarding the tornado projectile that leaves behind the speed-up effect - I feel that its not at all obvious that this stripe of color actually gives you a buff, so it staying out so long is confusing as first. I would suggest adding a subtle particle effect to Wrastor whenever he's benefiting from the speed buff. This way, seeing the particles appear or vanish when you touched the stripe or left it should quickly make it obvious that you are getting SOME kind of effect from touching the stripe, and after that it shouldn't take long to figure out what the effect actually is.

* Also with regards to the projectile, I personally find its restriction of not being able to fire another one until the first one is gone to be frustrating. It just feels wrong to have a button combo do nothing at all for such an extended time. The projectile itself is pretty weak, I'd prefer it if it could be used again but doing so created a new stripe and the previous stripe went away (much like Orcane's puddles).

* I never realized how weird it would feel until I tried it, but the fact that Wrastor has multiple air jumps and yet doesn't turn around from his jumps seems odd. You'll note that in Smash, any character with more than a single double-jump option turns around whenever they jump backwards in the air, unlike the rest of the characters that maintain their previous facing when they double-jump backwards. I think this is because it just looks odd to be floating backwards all the way across the stage as you keep air-jumping repeatedly. So, yeah, I think Wrastor should turn around and face the new direction whenever he jumps backwards in the air since he has multiple jumps.

Spoiler: Misc oddities, questions, and possible bugs

* ODDITY: For some reason Fraps saves videos with the name "Smash_2014_combined", no idea where exactly it pulls this name from, but might want to update it to be Rivals of Aether.

* QUESTION: Do different characters have different weight (referring to knockback resistance not falling speed)? I couldn't tell.

* MISC: I couldn't figure out a way to change what character the CPU used in the interface. I know the CPU has no AI yet anyway, but in Melee you could pick up the CPU's tokens once you had placed your own and put them on a different character. May need something like that later on when CPU's have AI.

* BUG?: If you air dodge and then when you land on the ground immediately jump again from the land animation, instead of returning to full idle, you don't get the air dodge back. To reproduce, just air-dodge once and then keep spamming the jump button and notice the "D" in the HUD will never light back up no matter how many times you touch the ground while spamming the jump button, and you can't air dodge again until you stop and idle or or use a ground attack.

* QUESTION: Are there plans to allow entering player names? Even if they don't actually show up above the character in the game itself, it would be useful to have the various settings (control scheme, R-stick handling, etc) be saved according to a "profile" so players can just pick their profile and have all their settings saved (plus opens up opportunity later for extra stat tracking, which is sometimes fun to look at and see what other players you have killed the most often and what character you used the most and so on).

* QUESTION: Do you plan for any characters that are significantly larger/slower/heavier? So far all three characters are similar in size and speed, it would be interesting if maybe the Earth character were a larger Golem or something with slow but hard-hitting attacks.

That's it so far! I'll probably submit more once I've had more multiplayer matches.

 

[4nace]

Hey 4nace this is Taron, aka the Volgarr dev, here with my first round of feedback. This is with only limited multiplayer testing, so there will likely be more to come. Most of this will be making comparisons to Melee, which is my preferred Smash game thus far.

Hey Taron. Thanks for the awesome feedback. This was exactly what I needed before diving into the fourth character. A chance to tighten up the engine and what I have here.

The "Why did they just die?" issue

• So this is actually an issue that I brought away from the PAX playtest too. I played with some MS employees who are not huge smash fans and while they enjoyed the game, they never knew their own damage or their opponents damage. I am now looking for ways to solve this issue. My first thought was to do something with the "P1" marker above your opponent's head. I am not sure I want it to change color so I don't know if that's a great solution. My next thought was a visual change once you reach 100 damage. Something like a transparent outline or dust particles coming off. I haven't landed on what exactly, but I am exploring those options now.
• Also I do plan on ditching the Percent. I am thinking of replacing it with a diagonal arrow and calling that number your Knockback Value.

The "Why did they just die?" issue - knockback scaling

• So it was a conscious decision to make many moves have low knockback scaling, although I might have gone overboard with my adjustments. One of the goals of the project was to have players comboing even if they may not have been able to in other Smash games. This is why some aerials have very low scaling, so you can always predict the knockback (to an extent) and follow up correctly. On some characters though, it does break a bit (looking at Wrastor's combo tools here)

On Technical Barriers vs Depth (referenced in later sections)

• Agreed with you here. Looks like we are on the same page.

Air Dodge System

• Without ledges, I had to rely on the air dodge to be a powerful tool so that is where I pushed it. The invincibility coming too late is interesting. I probably have not noticed because I use it as a movement tool more than a dodge itself. I can play with increasing the recovery slightly across the characters and then pushing the invincibility to earlier (perhaps as soon as the 1st frame?) I'll discuss wave-dashing below.

Landing lag and L-cancelling

• I don't plan on adding L-Cancelling at all. I will however be cleaning up what autocancels and what does not. For example, Wrastor's Smash Attacks near the ground should not auto cancel as they are designed to be air based finishers. They are not designed to be used in combos at low percents.

Wavedashing, Dash Dancing, and alternatives

• So this is one where your feedback is interesting but I am not currently sure which direction I will go. I actually just buffed the movement from Wavedashing in my latest project build because I was looking to get it utilized into combos more. The reason I went for Wavedashing and not L-Cancelling is that I wanted diverse movement options and I wanted to give players more control. I find with the current controls that wave dashing is a bit easier to execute than in Melee. My issue with it still is that it is not very intuitive.
• So the Dash Dancing stuff is interesting. You are right in that the burst is not as fast. This is an issue. I have an acceleration during the dash start phase and it kind of ruins dash-dancing. I'll look into making it start as a flat speed and the speed is a bit faster than the dash speeds across the board. One issue is that the dash starts are currently animated as one loop of the the run with a standing post at the very beginning. It means I might need a new animation of characters jumping into a run to get it to look and feel right.
• The dash cancelling to be similar to Wavedashing is actually pretty clever. My game already does a lot at separating Strong Attacks (Smash attacks) from the other attacks. I don't see why it would be bad to attempt to allow down smashes and forward smashes directly out of dash start, full dash or dash turn. Right now you can crouch out full dash to perform these and tilts but that requires a bit of forethought and technical ability. I could see myself allowing all the strong attacks during all the dash states and keeping the tilts out of dash to skilled players. That way an experienced player can use Wavedashing into Forward Tilt, or Dash into crouch into Down Tilt, while a newer player can find success dashing into smashes.

Tumbling, wake-up, and Tech-ing

• So this is one of the areas I have been struggling with a bit because it doesn't feel as tight as melee to me. The main reason I have avoided tumbling and wakeup is that I think it will slow down the game. When I play melee, I love tech chasing on characters like Falcon. But the main punish I use is a grab. Because there are not grabs in rivals, I moved away from a knockdown state with invincible getup.
• I have thought of implementing a tumbling state with knockdown, but it is a pretty big animation task for each character requiring a Tumble, Knockdown, Stand Up, and Get Up Attack animation for each character.
• I did put a bit of thought into how teching works now. Basically if you are being comboed near the ground and touch it while in hitsun, you can do nothing which means you will be in a hitstun land state for 10 frames. Or you can tech. If you tech in place, you get 10 frames of invincibility and then 10 frames of recovery. If you tech roll, you get 10 frames of invincibility and 15 frames of recovery. That means if you want control of your character the fastest, don't do anything! This was interesting to me because most of the time in melee, a tech in place is better than going into the knockdown state. In Rivals, if your opponent is far away, don't tech. Teching actually helps them extend the combo because you are delaying your vulnerable time. If they are right on top of you, tech and see if they whiff during your invincibility and then punish them. I am still playing with the numbers but the goal is to have it work like the last couple of sentences :D.

Off-the-ledge combat and a crazy idea I had

• Yeah. This is pretty brilliant and I think I will implement wall-jumping for every character. It does mean that Orcane will get a pretty big buff and edge guarding him will be even harder if he can side b into the wall and then wall jump. I had been suggested wall-jumping before but I haven't had time to implement it the way I would like.
• Wall-techs will be in the game, I just haven't had time to program them yet. I will probably make a wall jump anim for each character and just reuse it for the wall tech.

Parry system

• So the Parry System is still being worked on. The reason I went for invincibility is so you can parry multi-hitting attacks like Wrastor's Tornado. I do agree with you that right now Parries do not have a counter. I have been thinking of the way that works. They still don't overcentralize our play because they have a good amount of startup and require a pretty good read or very good reaction to use effectively. But I could see a defensive player in rivals really abusing the current system. I have been thinking about giving each character a move that cannot be parried. Which would be cool but would have to be visually explained. I have also thought about simply extending the recovery on Parry.
• I do like your idea of leaving your opponent caught in hitpause and then allow the defender to cancel out of their recovery animation. I can play with that. The only issue is that if you choose a slow move then a multi-hitting attack could still get you. I guess that is fair though since you shouldn't fully charge a smash attack as a parry punish.
• The jab into parry is not a bug. Right now I was thinking Jabs don't get a ton of recovery from Parries as Jabs are a low risk attack. You can parry the last hit and that is pretty cool because you can actually crouch cancel the first two hits of a jab combo and then punish the third with a parry (only works on new players who don't know it works that way)

Grabs (and lack thereof)

• I will look into attacks with opposite knockback. Perhaps Wrastor's Wind Kick is a good chance to try that out as it is designed to look and feel like a grab.

The eternal "I thought I still had my double jump!" problem

• Yup. I agree with you. I am thinking of exploring pips next to your player tag (P1, P2) for both your air dodge and if you have any double jumps yet. Maybe even just little circles.

Stale Moves

• No stale moves currently. The time people feel they exist is when you are trying to kill off the ceiling on the fire stage (which has a large ceiling) or they are using an attack with low knockback growth (a combo move)

Character-specific notes - Wrastor

• I really like the idea of having particles come off Wrastor while he is inside the current. I have been trying to make that visual interesting and I think that could work pretty well. I have also thought about particles moving around inside the current all the time. Perhaps they pass in front of Wrastor but behind everyone else or something like that.
• Not being able to use the projectile again is on purpose as the projectile is also a nullifier. It flat out beats other projectiles and approaches because it is so fast. I do agree that it feels weird to not be able to do anything with that input but I am not 100% sure of the solution. Just letting Wrastor spawn a new one whenever he wants would affect his style (which I want to be heavily Rush-Down). His limited projectile is meant to help his rush down, not so he can zone with it.
• So I purposely did not let him turn around. The main reason is that his aerials are so fun and diverse and I hate playing Kirby or Jiggs in smash and having to remember to adjust and not turn around when I am trying to back air spam. The other reason I do not let him turn around is that he can use his Strong Forward Attack to turn around in the air (which isnt great because it has a good amount of lag but it is something).

Misc oddities, questions, and possible bugs

• Will look into that. I believe that is my project name in Game Maker Studio.
• Not in your build! But I did just make that change. Wrastor is now lighter so his knockback both up and to the sides has increased.
• Yeah that is not set up yet. You can use the keyboard to change it though if you have a controller plugged it.
• Yeah that was on purpose, but I am going to remove it. I had for a time thought that you should not get your dodge back until you reach a fully neutral state (so not attack or waveland). But it is just confusing to players and randomly hurts people more than it is utilized.
• I haven't fully landed on how player names will be utilized on PC / Xbox One. I want to store them but I think they will simply all be in one save file. Like you couldn't bring your profile to a friends place or something.
• Yupppers. The fourth character will be slower and stronger. I am thinking that his combo moves will simply have a hitstun modifier so you are trapped longer, which means if you don't DI correctly, he can be setting up a big punish.

 

[Zauron]

Wow I'm impressed you actually read all that . Looking forward to what you make of it in future builds!

 

[Puppyfaic]

One thing I want you to consider, 4nace:
Right now, the way the HUD is set up, it shows a number and a %. Due to the art style, it'd be odd to have the numbers change color to easily signify damage taken, which is why I want to toss this idea out to further differentiate the game from Smash Bros.(Because right now it's just Smash Bros. with original characters): The HUD pieces for the characters look like there should be some sort of bar filling up in them. So, why not do just that? In addition to the % numbers, also have the negative space become a bar that fills up to display damage instead. I made a mock-up to show you exactly what I mean:

Spoiler

It's pink because Zetterburn. It'd be light blue for Orcane, and the respective color of Wrastor. The bar will fill up at 100%, to let you know you've entered that danger zone where you could be killed at any moment, but the % number will keep rising past 100 like it already does. Or just ditch the numbers altogether and have the knockback max out when the bar maxes out as well. The bar could also change color when being burned by Zetterburn, or any other status effects that might occur that you want to change color for. The guy above me told you it was hard to tell at a quick glance what % you were at without taking your eyes off the action. This makes it a lot easier.

 

[4nace]

@ Puppyfaic
Yeah that sounds like a pretty good solution actually. I wonder if it would be enough or if it would be better to have some kind of visual around the characters. But I could try it and see if just the colored bar is enough.

I would probably color the bar the same color as your character color so blue orcane would be blue while purple orcane would be purple.

-Dan

 

[Puppyfaic]

@ Puppyfaic
Yeah that sounds like a pretty good solution actually. I wonder if it would be enough or if it would be better to have some kind of visual around the characters. But I could try it and see if just the colored bar is enough.

I would probably color the bar the same color as your character color so blue orcane would be blue while purple orcane would be purple.

-Dan

Glad you like it :3
Plus, this way, if you add Stamina mode, you can just have the bar become a Health Bar instead, starting it at full and having it decrease when you get hit. Totally not being biased and really naggy about Stamina mode, by the way

 

[Xanthus]

Played around with this quite a bit today, although only about 10 mins with a legitimate opponent.

Few things I found with Wrastor, which I've showcased here: [ Video Link ] (Times you can see the below features are in the description)

• He can turn around using side B after throwing his projectile (somebody else wanted to turn around with double jumps, this is an alternate solution.
• When he fast falls and charges a smash at the same time, he rises up into the air significantly. I've ONLY been able to pull this off when moving towards the left (facing either direction). Might be based on speed, it seems I go up more when moving with the speed boost.
• Very minor and I'm sure you made this hitbox with some leniency , but he can be affected from his side b when his hitbox is a few pixels below the graphic.

Also I made a sort of dummy opponent using Xpadder to use inputs based on what I do because tonight I didn't have anybody else to play with. If anybody wants it I can upload the xpadder config file [ Video Link ]

Hopefully tomorrow I can get a lot more time in with more opponents :D. Great game so far! Feels fantastic, easy to pick up and to start stringing together combos.

 

[4nace]

@ Xanthus

Cool finds. The wind current hitbox is indeed slightly bigger to make sure you are in it. Just a bit of leniency.

The upward boost on the charged smash is fascinating. I will look into it. I am actually changing his smash a bit so you only slow during the charge part which means you won't be able to delay your fall as easily. I'll see if that bug stays in place. Weird that it is only toward the left.

And good point on the side b. That thing seems like its incredible for getting back on the stage. Not that getting back on the stage with Wrastor was particularly hard .

Keep the tests coming.

-Dan

 

[Tetiro]

If you have a demo spare, I am happy to help

 

[akf09]

@ 4nace

Applied to be a tester today via email.
Im curious if this game is planning to have shields in the future. my guess is that i will. I have a few ideas such as each element having a unique shield that has different properties. for example fire sheild dealing light damage when it blocks, air pushing the enemy away slightly, water is slippery and causes the person shielding to slide away from the attacker and earth being the strongest of the sheilds and functions like a yoshi egg sheild ( unable to be poked through) I also felt it would be intrestng if once your shield broke you are not stunned but instead you do not regenerate a shield untill you lose that stock.

 

[Puppyfaic]

@ 4nace

Applied to be a tester today via email.
Im curious if this game is planning to have shields in the future. my guess is that i will. I have a few ideas such as each element having a unique shield that has different properties. for example fire sheild dealing light damage when it blocks, air pushing the enemy away slightly, water is slippery and causes the person shielding to slide away from the attacker and earth being the strongest of the sheilds and functions like a yoshi egg sheild ( unable to be poked through) I also felt it would be intrestng if once your shield broke you are not stunned but instead you do not regenerate a shield untill you lose that stock.

Nope. That's what the Parry system is for. Parries are meant to replace blocking as a whole. Although you did propose an interesting idea.

Different elements could have different effects when a Parry is executed. For example, Wind element could recover faster but leave the opponent open for less time as well. Fire could burn the enemy on a successful Parry. Water could slow the enemy down for a second or two after recovering from being parried. Earth pitfall them into the ground instead of causing them to recoil.

 

[akf09]

ah no shields at all? hmm thats a drastic difference from smash but that is a good idea because it makes defense more skill based. in that case and now that im back from the bar haha will think of a new idea like puppyfaic suggested.

Fire- i would say the fire parry should catch the enemy on fire, however this might not be the best idea if another fire character is made and it does not use the same burn system because then this would not benefit it as much as the current fire character, but it would still be extra damage so i suppose it may work still.

Air- assuming air characters excel at air combat ( im not sure as i have not played the game yet haha) i think it would be better if the air characters parry allowed the character parrying to act out of a successful parry instantly and the parry launched the opposing character into the air so the air element character could follow up with aerial moves.

Water- I think slowing the enemy is a good idea, so they become "frozen" once they are successfully parried and then slowly thaw out. this means that their character moves slower and also preforms moves at a much slower rate for a few seconds after being parried. almost like they have a certain number of frames of lag or their frames for moves are stretched out so that they are easier to punish shortly after being parried.

Earth- now this one is hard for me to say as we have not seen an earth character yet and do not have an idea of the play style. However i feel that pifalling after a parry is not unique enough. maybe a 5% heal would be a good tool but again we have not seen an earth element yet so i do not have enough information to summit a good concept.

@ Puppyfaic thank you for informing me of the parry system i did not know it was in place of shields i thought it was in addition to shields but i think parrying is a good system.

 

[4nace]

Parries for the four different elements are a good idea. I like the suggestions here. Balancing them could be tough but it fits well and if the visual of parrying matches the element then it will make the feature even cooler. I do worry that I might end up having to do a unique parry for each character. (Would Water and Ice really fit with the same Parry Mechanic) but that could work out.

I would think very distinct positives and negatives would be the best. Fire burning the opponent is a very clear gain and fits the element so far. The air knockup works pretty well too.

Maybe Orcane streams some bubbles from his position allowing for a follow up of your choice. Earth I could see allowing the character to hold the parry for longer but the downside is that the benefit might not be as great (slight advantage in time). This would make it the lowest risk parry but also the lowest reward.

Sounds like a great feature though. I will look into exploring it before the next major update. It would require some animation and effect work so will probably take a bit of time to get right.

-Dan

 

[akf09]

maybe if orcane parries then the puddle will pop and bubbles get set off as an added bonus? and i agree that earth should have the longest active frames as earth element is generally seen as have a strong center of balance or defense. also maybe fire should have the quickest parry but the least amount of active frames ( meaning their parry comes out quickly but has a very strict timing) because setting the enemy on fire or dealing damage with the parry is a clear

 

[TheCoin]

I've just started college so I haven't got to play much but I here's some things i found while playing around:

• It is possible to cancel dash into almost any attack by first crouching. This means you can do tilts and smashes in all directions out of dashing, even in the opposite direction of where you are dashing.
• Upsmash out of dash is possible without crouching first.
• It is possible to turn around before a jump by dashing in one direction and dashing the other direction just before the jump like you can do in brawl and PM.
• Orcane has a Squirtleish turnaround animation which gives him/her a small boost. If you jump right as you turn around you will get the boost and jump further. Can be used to get far off stage with a bair.
• Zetterburns Up-b is canclable into an airdodge. This makes it possible to mix up recoveries. I would like to see more attacks that can be used like this.
• Using smash attacks out of dash can be very effective for Orcane since doing it while dashing past a puddle makes him/her suck it up and increasses the attacks range. (and power?)
• Dash dancing is very good.
• While choosing color, if i press the left trigger it will skip the main color of the character.

 

[akf09]

I have noticed that wrastors Dair combos into itself? i havnt had much time to play other players as i just became a tester but u can dair into dair about 5 times in a row then u can dair jump dair jump dair jump to Usmash. i think i did a zero to death on zetter

also this game is really fun

wow being able to cancel zetterbuns UP special into an air dodge is game changing. u can jump up b wait for the fire to set teh enemy on fire then cancel it and catches them on fire in a realyl tricky way

 

[Puppyfaic]

I have noticed that wrastors Dair combos into itself? i havnt had much time to play other players as i just became a tester but u can dair into dair about 5 times in a row then u can dair jump dair jump dair jump to Usmash.

Which dair?

 

[akf09]

@ 4nace thanks for the playtest accept.

Ok i have a character concept i wanna post and its going to be a heavy earth type character with slow powerful moves and a complicated set of moves that help him control the stage and gameplay. i cant deciede what the character will look like or the name i would pick haha, but ill try to explain the gameplay i had in mind.

Side Special: Earth Blast

Ok so the side special shoots a stream of dirt out about 3 times the characters length and the steam pushes the first enemy hit by it away similar to how squirtle or marios water pushes you. If the earth blast hits directly it coats the enemy in earth which remains on them until they lose that stock or until the earth character "removes" it which i will explain shortly. If the earth blast misses it will remain out on the stage in a pile. there can only be 3 earth piles out at one time and earth attatched to a player counts as an earth pile. after 3 are out inputing earth blast will do nothing.

Neutral Special: Earth Pull

Earth pull does just that, it pull in all piles of dirt and the dirt then collects around the earth character. If dirt is stuck on an enemy it will pull the enemy in towards the earth character as it pulls the dirt off of that player. The more "stacks" of dirt on an enemy will pull it farther and harder, the maximum amount of stacks would be 3 because only 3 stacks of dirt can even be out at one time. once earth pull is preformed the dirt then is stuck to the earth player and can again be stacked 3 times.

Down Special: Solidify

Solidify hardens all dirt on the stage into a brittle rock. This affects this characters gameplay in many ways. if dirt is on the earth character when it is hardened then it gives the earth character 1 stack of armor for each stack of dirt on it. the armor does not prevent damage but it prevents knockback of any kind on the next attack that lands. each time you are hit one stack of hardened dirt shatters and is removed from the game, as in it does not land back on the floor it is destroyed. Dirt attatched to an enemy functions in a much different way however, the earth hardens too much and shatters instantly knocking the enemy into the air and dealing damage. The launch and damage is based on how many dirt stacks on on the enemy. Solidify also affects dirt that is on the floor. it condenses it into a small boulder that can then be pulled in towards the earth character in order to hit enemies. when a boulder is pulled in it hits the earth character and shatters which can damage enemies but not the earth character.

Up Special: Earth Rocket
This launches the earth character upward shooting all dirt attached to him downward. The more amount of dirt that is shot downward the higher this move will launch him. note that hardened dirt remains attatched and does not add distance to this recovery.


ok this is all i have come up with. have not thought of the normal attacks or even what this character would look like other than a large bulky creature.

 

[akf09]

Which dair?

wrastors dair combos into his dair. its really fun but it seems like its super easy to combo into itself

 

[CaptainCrisb]

@ 4nace thanks for the playtest accept.

Ok i have a character concept i wanna post and its going to be a heavy earth type character with slow powerful moves and a complicated set of moves that help him control the stage and gameplay. i cant deciede what the character will look like or the name i would pick haha, but ill try to explain the gameplay i had in mind.

Side Special: Earth Blast

Ok so the side special shoots a stream of dirt out about 3 times the characters length and the steam pushes the first enemy hit by it away similar to how squirtle or marios water pushes you. If the earth blast hits directly it coats the enemy in earth which remains on them until they lose that stock or until the earth character "removes" it which i will explain shortly. If the earth blast misses it will remain out on the stage in a pile. there can only be 3 earth piles out at one time and earth attatched to a player counts as an earth pile. after 3 are out inputing earth blast will do nothing.

Neutral Special: Earth Pull

Earth pull does just that, it pull in all piles of dirt and the dirt then collects around the earth character. If dirt is stuck on an enemy it will pull the enemy in towards the earth character as it pulls the dirt off of that player. The more "stacks" of dirt on an enemy will pull it farther and harder, the maximum amount of stacks would be 3 because only 3 stacks of dirt can even be out at one time. once earth pull is preformed the dirt then is stuck to the earth player and can again be stacked 3 times.

Down Special: Solidify

Solidify hardens all dirt on the stage into a brittle rock. This affects this characters gameplay in many ways. if dirt is on the earth character when it is hardened then it gives the earth character 1 stack of armor for each stack of dirt on it. the armor does not prevent damage but it prevents knockback of any kind on the next attack that lands. each time you are hit one stack of hardened dirt shatters and is removed from the game, as in it does not land back on the floor it is destroyed. Dirt attatched to an enemy functions in a much different way however, the earth hardens too much and shatters instantly knocking the enemy into the air and dealing damage. The launch and damage is based on how many dirt stacks on on the enemy. Solidify also affects dirt that is on the floor. it condenses it into a small boulder that can then be pulled in towards the earth character in order to hit enemies. when a boulder is pulled in it hits the earth character and shatters which can damage enemies but not the earth character.

Up Special: Earth Rocket
This launches the earth character upward shooting all dirt attached to him downward. The more amount of dirt that is shot downward the higher this move will launch him. note that hardened dirt remains attatched and does not add distance to this recovery.


ok this is all i have come up with. have not thought of the normal attacks or even what this character would look like other than a large bulky creature.

Whoah.... uh... you might want to make your font a little smaller bud

 

[akf09]

haha iwill its my internet browser its zoomed out really far so i accidently made that huge. haha sorry guys ill edit

 

[Puppyfaic]

wrastors dair combos into his dair. its really fun but it seems like its super easy to combo into itself

Again, which dair? He has two.

 

[akf09]

hahaha well i think its safe to assume his light dair becuase otherwise i would say D smash but you are right. i meant his dair tilt. just tried it against and actual player and its not OP becuase u can DI away but on a CPU u can dair like 5 times in a row

 

[Mum]

From playing a few hours, I've noticed that zetterburn has a lack of openings.

Like Orcane has a predictable recovery and has to play around his puddle so one can avoid the puddle or know where orcane will come back to. Wrastor is a great combo-er and has a diverse aerial game which allows him to control a fight better, but he has worse smashes.

So am I missing something or is zetterburn maybe too wellrounded. I'd say his specials could use more lag afterwords (his down special is easily spammed and has a large hitbox), or more ending lag on smashes to bring focus onto his tilts.

 

[4nace]

@ Mum
I understand that reaction, but I think it is mostly due to how easy Zetterburn is to first pick up. I could see his forward smash having a bit more lag and the non-fire version having a bit more knockback. But right Zetterburn is easy but begins to fall off. I think the main reason he falls off is that he is quite predictable. Once you get a handle on his forward special and his desire to combo fire into smashes, he starts to become easier to play against. I would actually rank Zetterburn as even with Orcane but under Wrastor in the build you guys have.

@ akf09
Cool ideas. I do have a design for the rock guy I am creating which is a bit different than what you have here. But I think your ideas are neat. I would say work on the design a bit particularly how the armor works. I think the design sounds closer to how I was envisioning ice could work if I do an ice based character down the road. Play around with the idea in your head a bit and see what you can come up with. I would stay away from having dirt land on the opponent because drawing that while keeping your opponent easy to read with the art style in the game would be tough. However, if the character themself can power up than that is easier because its design could have space for three beefed up areas.

@ TheCoin
Great observations and nice bug find on the LB changing color glitch! Everything you found there is true and put in on purpose. The puddle smashes are extend and you don't even need to be moving to do it. You can just stand on your puddle. However, all that changes is the range is much larger. The knockback is the same. Chances are though with a bigger ranged attack, you might charge it longer which is why it could feel stronger .


------------------

So I am playing with some changes and will have a new build soon. They relate a bit to what @ Zauron brought up and @ TheCoin mentioned. I am splitting Strong Attacks even further from regular attacks. While you can crouch during full dash to perform tilts, you will no longer have to crouch to perform Strong Attacks (Smash Attacks). That means you will be able to perform a Strong Attack out of Dash Start, Dash, Dash Turn and Dash Stop. This gives you a bit more mobility and helps you get the attack out that you want. To balance this change, I will probably increase the recovery on some Strong Attacks on the ground.

I am also experimenting with Wall Jumping. I have it working in a build but it is not quite ready for prime time. Wall jumping will buff Orcane and Zetterburn a good amount because you can wall jump during your prat fall. However, you only get one wall jump unless you touch ground or are hit by an attack, so don't try to stall down there!

Here's a quick gif to show what it looks like right now:

I'll fill you guys in on some more updates as things progress. Going to be cleaning up the engine and interactions then polishing up Wrastor before moving onto the fourth character .

Thanks,
Dan Fornace

 

[TheCoin]

The walljumping looks neat. I'm really looking forward to the next update.
I found another bug. If the default color of each character is color 1 and I choose the red Zetterburn which would be color 3 and then change character to Orcane, I would get Orcanes 3'd color instead of the default which I would get in Smash.

I made some Gifs too:

Orcanes turnaround B-air

Orcanes running puddle F-Smash

Zetterburns Up-B Cancel

Wrastor Ken Combo

 

[Xanthus]

I'm having a small smash get-together later, hopefully will get a lot of legitimate playtime against opponents (and some recorded footage). I've already put a number of hours playing by myself vs my pseudo AI, but want to hold off on that feedback until I get significant playtime with actual people. If anyone is interested, I plan to stream it from around 4 PM EST [Stream Link]

I think it would be useful to be able to use wrastor's aerial tilts with the c-stick by tilting it instead of "smashing" it. (use a tilt independant of the direction you're moving)