Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[Puppyfaic]

As cool as the concept of moon energy is, where exactly would it fit in the four elements?

It wouldn't. Sun/Moon are their own things.

 

[RoA_Zam]

As cool as the concept of moon energy is, where exactly would it fit in the four elements?

@ Puppyfaic

As one of the 7 planetary metals (Silver).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#Seven_planetary_metals

 

[JayTheUnseen]

So what's lead?

 

[IceGoat]

Hey! Just wondering from a GML standpoint, how would you calculate / create trajectory and knock-back, and the such. Also is there any GMS resource packs you would recommend? Thank you fellow developer :D

 

[RoA_Zam]

So what's lead?

If you wanted to make a character that was deep-seated in lore, it would involve Lead (described as dry, cold) that would be heavy, and through processes using special moves, it could transform itself (referenced as transmutation, purification, and perfection) into something golden (described as hot, moist) and what you do with that info could be an innumerable amount of things.

 

[Boss N]

I'm gonna try to keep up with this thread cuz I'm so Hyped for this game, I wanna submit a play tester application but is the game playable on mac?

Am I the only one who thinks the 5th character is going to be the element of Aether itself?
Yes, little known fact there is indeed a 5th element. And it's not exactly like the movie but it's surprisingly on the right track.

And Dan please make Glace a character! I'm totally not saying that because I'm a sheik main… or zelda. Or love snow.

 

[RoA_Zam]

I'm gonna try to keep up with this thread cuz I'm so Hyped for this game, I wanna submit a play tester application but is the game playable on mac?

Am I the only one who thinks the 5th character is going to be the element of Aether itself?
Yes, little known fact there is indeed a 5th element. And it's not exactly like the movie but it's surprisingly on the right track.

And Dan please make Glace a character! I'm totally not saying that because I'm a sheik main… or zelda. Or love snow.

I love it when people know that Aether is actually considered an element. Research is fun on this topic haha.

You're only the only one who thinks that the 5th would be an Aether based element, but to be honest, he already has a 6th in the works too! So that's too many elements, and kind of negates that idea. I like the idea of a 5th element, but he's just sticking to pairs of 2 for each element.

Ice would be a slight variation of water for example, and that could work.

Perhaps with the future of DLC for the game, an Aether (or other element based on all of the fan-made characters in the thread) would be playable!

 

[Sol_Vent]

I kind of assumed that an Aether element character would be some manner of boss. Playable or not is another issue, but either way, I don't think we should expect to see one in the near future at the very least.

Also, I spontaneously generated another character idea. I'll probably write it up tomorrow, though. I've got so much to write in general. >.>

But in the spirit of the currently-teased state of the thread populace, I'll just say that the name of this character's species is also the name of a fighting game character.

 

[4nace]

Hey! Just wondering from a GML standpoint, how would you calculate / create trajectory and knock-back, and the such. Also is there any GMS resource packs you would recommend? Thank you fellow developer :D

Hmmm for movement I would recommend checking out Zack Bell's blog. He has some good write ups on collisions and stuff-
http://zackbellgames.com/

For assets, I would look for tilesets and audio packs. Kenney has some nice tilesets if you are going for vector style graphics-
http://kenney.itch.io/kenney-donation

For animations youre likely on your own! Its tough to find sprites with all the animations required so you're best off picking a simple style.

Also in terms of knockback, its simply applying a horizontal and vertical speed based on damage and the attack data.

My code looks something like

Knockback = (Base_Knockback + Damage*Inc_Factor*Knockback_Scaling)
Hspeed = Knockback*cos(Knock_Angle);
Vspeed = -Knockback*sin(Knock_Angle);
Hspeed = knock_dir * abs(Hspeed)

Knock_dir is the opponent's left or right direction which is stored as 1 or -1. There's a lot more to it added over time but that it's at its simplest. Also put players into a hitstun state.

Also loving the speculation going on in here haha. Going to be fun to reveal the 5th character

-Dan

 

[RoA_Zam]

I think I might just leave this progress here:

 

[Boss N]

I'm gonna try to keep up with this thread cuz I'm so Hyped for this game

Checks in 24 hours later

You're only the only one who thinks that the 5th would be an Aether based element, but to be honest, he already has a 6th in the works too! So that's too many elements, and kind of negates that idea. I like the idea of a 5th element, but he's just sticking to pairs of 2 for each element.

awwww Well since Dan ain't doing it, might as well jump on the fan-made band-wagon and just make my own! Which is going to be hard since I'm saving the best ideas for my own potential smash-esque fitting game.

The next character better be a Lizard or reptile so we get the entire animal kingdom, unless that spot is getting reserved for Nhab ;D

And @ RoA_Zam , did you make those borders as well or are they in the playterster build and you're just showing off color swaps? They look sexy either way

 

[RoA_Zam]

Checks in 24 hours later



awwww Well since Dan ain't doing it, might as well jump on the fan-made band-wagon and just make my own! Which is going to be hard since I'm saving the best ideas for my own potential smash-esque fitting game.

The next character better be a Lizard or reptile so we get the entire animal kingdom, unless that spot is getting reserved for Nhab ;D

And @ RoA_Zam , did you make those borders as well or are they in the playterster build and you're just showing off color swaps? They look sexy either way

I meant to type "you're NOT the only one who thinks the 5th..." Btw. Lol

I made the color swaps myself and imported them. They're fully functional in game to play with other than Zetterburns Fire on another opponent, and when a Kragg pillar breaks, where they display the original color they were before I modified them. I was given the ability to do color swaps to help improve textures in game.

 

[Boss N]

So this ended up being even harder than I imagined, since Aether is purely spiritual and isn't tangible like the other elements. Even though I came up with a few Ideas, I'm not sure if they would fit the mechanical motif of the game since neither of them do much to alter the environment… well maybe. idk i'll let you guys be the judge on that.
Also I haven't come up with names or backstory yet. I think it's important to establish their in-game abilities first and then build their actual 'character' around that.

So this first Idea I like the concept behind but I don't think holds true to the actual element of Aether, so I'm calling it;
Aether Minor
Each of it's special attacks are associated with a different element.
Up-Wind
Down- earth
Side- Water
Neutral- Fire
Every time you use a special move, it changes your current elemental status. Each status changes the properties of your attacks, for example Earth makes them slow but launches like a catapult, wind makes it weak but super quick and keeps your opponent close to you, fire adds a longer reach or even a projectile etc. This character will probably be a dragon, and I guess in a sense this could be @ RoA_Zam 's lead character since he's changing himself into different forms.

The second idea i think holds more true to the lore of the element, as well as arguably does have a somewhat quality of terrain manipulation in a sense. So this is
Aether Major
Aether (sometimes spelled ether or called prana, tachyon energy, chi, the force) is a life energy that inhabits and surrounds all living creatures in the universe, it's the source of life itself. So this character can breathe in this energy in, and create an energy clone of itself. Up to 3 or 4. These clones mimic the original's EXACT movement and actions, and each of the smash attacks also serve as commands you can give them. For example,
F- go ahead of me
D- Stay here
U- Follow me
Or something to that effect, this could also be mapped to the other special moves. But again, no matter your position they'll still copy your actions. I still haven't come up with a move set or what the other specials do, I want one to be able to re-absorb a clone and gain a tiny bit of health or a buff of some kind (like temporary increased launch power) and MAYBE his recovery is that he warps to the nearest clone he isn't controlling, but it sounds too similar to Orcane's and Bee dudes Up-B sooo… yeah.

But this is just my basic idea behind how it'll work. It's like a hybrid of Rosalina and Olimar.
Rosalina in the sense that you essentially can serve as a puppeteer to these clones and use them for spacing. Olimar in the sense that the more you have the more better off you'll be, the more useful your smash attacks and your ability to recover. Mind you the clones are easy to dispatch, character itself isn't that strong and can be launched pretty easily, so the clones are going to be integral to the character. (This concept is copyrighted and patented by NBoss, don't steal or I'll sick my squadron of elite attack Lawyers on ya )

So what do ya'll think?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Time to move on to my second project for RoA: Character Matchups!

I will be posting these matchups whenever I have time to record data. And I plan to go over every matchup in RoA's lifespan, beyond just the 4 characters that are available now. But until the new characters are released, I aim to finish all 6 current matchups (plus the 4 additional matchups should the 5th character be released before I am able to finish lol). Before I begin though, I would like to go over a couple of things:

- Feel free to contest/critique the matchup information that I provide! It is our jobs as playtesters to ensure optimal balance for RoA, and "optimal balance" is a variable that can widely differ between many different people. There are some things that I could end up missing in regards to balance, as I am only a single person (along with my brother who is helping me playtest). And what I see as "balanced" could differ in another person's eyes. With a ton of different opinions in regards to balancing RoA though, we can better achieve a "true balance", or at least have the game balanced to a point where it can at least appease almost everybody!
- RoA is still a new game, and additionally, it is still a new game to me. I feel as though I have enough skill so that my opinions hold some merit to them, though I also know that I am far away from being the best player ever. My skill comes from the many fighting games I have played over the years, but my skill at RoA is still pretty lacking at these early stages. Because of this, my opinions will probably change over time, especially if I learn about new information/opinions from other people.
- Currently, I don't have access to the best controller method possible. I am using a GC Adapter with a program that allows it to be used with RoA, and the controls are kind of funky to me right now. Specifically parrying, which I have been having trouble getting used to with how the controllers are currently set up. This control scheme I am using will probably affect my opinion slightly, but not by too much. However, my understanding of parries and their potential uses are currently limited because of this, so keep that in mind when reading my matchup data. The matchup data would be the characters' raw potential in regards to beating their opponents, in which parrying isn't factored in. And this may greatly affect certain matchups, though I'm not exactly sure about that either.
- Even though people have different opinions in regards to the game's balance and character matchups, always remember to be respectful. This doesn't just apply to me though, it applies to everyone. So that everyone in this thread can continue to have a pleasant experience on the forums, and with the game. Thank you in advance!


So, without further ado, I will be posting the first matchup in my next post! Stay tuned!

 

[DrMister]

So this ended up being even harder than I imagined, since Aether is purely spiritual and isn't tangible like the other elements. Even though I came up with a few Ideas, I'm not sure if they would fit the mechanical motif of the game since neither of them do much to alter the environment… well maybe. idk i'll let you guys be the judge on that.
Also I haven't come up with names or backstory yet. I think it's important to establish their in-game abilities first and then build their actual 'character' around that.

So this first Idea I like the concept behind but I don't think holds true to the actual element of Aether, so I'm calling it;
Aether Minor
Each of it's special attacks are associated with a different element.
Up-Wind
Down- earth
Side- Water
Neutral- Fire
Every time you use a special move, it changes your current elemental status. Each status changes the properties of your attacks, for example Earth makes them slow but launches like a catapult, wind makes it weak but super quick and keeps your opponent close to you, fire adds a longer reach or even a projectile etc. This character will probably be a dragon, and I guess in a sense this could be @ RoA_Zam 's lead character since he's changing himself into different forms.

The second idea i think holds more true to the lore of the element, as well as arguably does have a somewhat quality of terrain manipulation in a sense. So this is
Aether Major
Aether (sometimes spelled ether or called prana, tachyon energy, chi, the force) is a life energy that inhabits and surrounds all living creatures in the universe, it's the source of life itself. So this character can breathe in this energy in, and create an energy clone of itself. Up to 3 or 4. These clones mimic the original's EXACT movement and actions, and each of the smash attacks also serve as commands you can give them. For example,
F- go ahead of me
D- Stay here
U- Follow me
Or something to that effect, this could also be mapped to the other special moves. But again, no matter your position they'll still copy your actions. I still haven't come up with a move set or what the other specials do, I want one to be able to re-absorb a clone and gain a tiny bit of health or a buff of some kind (like temporary increased launch power) and MAYBE his recovery is that he warps to the nearest clone he isn't controlling, but it sounds too similar to Orcane's and Bee dudes Up-B sooo… yeah.

But this is just my basic idea behind how it'll work. It's like a hybrid of Rosalina and Olimar.
Rosalina in the sense that you essentially can serve as a puppeteer to these clones and use them for spacing. Olimar in the sense that the more you have the more better off you'll be, the more useful your smash attacks and your ability to recover. Mind you the clones are easy to dispatch, character itself isn't that strong and can be launched pretty easily, so the clones are going to be integral to the character. (This concept is copyrighted and patented by NBoss, don't steal or I'll sick my squadron of elite attack Lawyers on ya )

So what do ya'll think?

I really like the both concepts. First off, Fire= DoT. It just makes too much sense. Only thing is probably Wind and Earth will be used ALOT. Wind = Build up damage, Earth finishes it. Still it could use some stage control. How about water makes puddles like Orcane's. If you use Neutral Special, Orcane's down special occurs. Essentially all his specials, except his Up B, are from the original cast, the basic elements!

Now for the Aether Major. Rosy and Luma ooh baby. Well I think the commands should simply be like Rosy and Luma. An interesting passive could be that every special creates a clone. Now 4 clones is an exaggeration, 3 feels kinda unfair as well. I think only 1 clone should be able to exist, or that they get killed very easily. Like, a tilt kills it, or if you create another one, the first one dissipates. The clone's smashes could have a different angle than yours. For example, Your F-Smash is angled upwards and the Clone's is angled downwards. That rewards clone positioning.

Overall I like these ideas, polish 'em a bit, and they'd be amazing. I'd help you out, but I'm busy with Nhab. Maybe after I'm done cuz I really like these ideas.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Time to move on to my second project for RoA: Character Matchups!

I will be posting these matchups whenever I have time to record data. And I plan to go over every matchup in RoA's lifespan, beyond just the 4 characters that are available now. But until the new characters are released, I aim to finish all 6 current matchups (plus the 4 additional matchups should the 5th character be released before I am able to finish lol). Before I begin though, I would like to go over a couple of things:

- Feel free to contest/critique the matchup information that I provide! It is our jobs as playtesters to ensure optimal balance for RoA, and "optimal balance" is a variable that can widely differ between many different people. There are some things that I could end up missing in regards to balance, as I am only a single person (along with my brother who is helping me playtest). And what I see as "balanced" could differ in another person's eyes. With a ton of different opinions in regards to balancing RoA though, we can better achieve a "true balance", or at least have the game balanced to a point where it can at least appease almost everybody!
- RoA is still a new game, and additionally, it is still a new game to me. I feel as though I have enough skill so that my opinions hold some merit to them, though I also know that I am far away from being the best player ever. My skill comes from the many fighting games I have played over the years, but my skill at RoA is still pretty lacking at these early stages. Because of this, my opinions will probably change over time, especially if I learn about new information/opinions from other people.
- Currently, I don't have access to the best controller method possible. I am using a GC Adapter with a program that allows it to be used with RoA, and the controls are kind of funky to me right now. Specifically parrying, which I have been having trouble getting used to with how the controllers are currently set up. This control scheme I am using will probably affect my opinion slightly, but not by too much. However, my understanding of parries and their potential uses are currently limited because of this, so keep that in mind when reading my matchup data. The matchup data would be the characters' raw potential in regards to beating their opponents, in which parrying isn't factored in. And this may greatly affect certain matchups, though I'm not exactly sure about that either.
- Even though people have different opinions in regards to the game's balance and character matchups, always remember to be respectful. This doesn't just apply to me though, it applies to everyone. So that everyone in this thread can continue to have a pleasant experience on the forums, and with the game. Thank you in advance!


So, without further ado, I will be posting the first matchup in my next post! Stay tuned!

Sounds interesting to me as well.I like the idea of Aether being the final boss's element,as someone suggested.If you did that,he could be as OP as you like,lol.
If you want a playable character though,I agree 2 or 3 clones may be too much.

 

[Sol_Vent]

So this ended up being even harder than I imagined, since Aether is purely spiritual and isn't tangible like the other elements. Even though I came up with a few Ideas, I'm not sure if they would fit the mechanical motif of the game since neither of them do much to alter the environment… well maybe. idk i'll let you guys be the judge on that.
Also I haven't come up with names or backstory yet. I think it's important to establish their in-game abilities first and then build their actual 'character' around that.

So this first Idea I like the concept behind but I don't think holds true to the actual element of Aether, so I'm calling it;
Aether Minor
Each of it's special attacks are associated with a different element.
Up-Wind
Down- earth
Side- Water
Neutral- Fire
Every time you use a special move, it changes your current elemental status. Each status changes the properties of your attacks, for example Earth makes them slow but launches like a catapult, wind makes it weak but super quick and keeps your opponent close to you, fire adds a longer reach or even a projectile etc. This character will probably be a dragon, and I guess in a sense this could be @ RoA_Zam 's lead character since he's changing himself into different forms.

The second idea i think holds more true to the lore of the element, as well as arguably does have a somewhat quality of terrain manipulation in a sense. So this is
Aether Major
Aether (sometimes spelled ether or called prana, tachyon energy, chi, the force) is a life energy that inhabits and surrounds all living creatures in the universe, it's the source of life itself. So this character can breathe in this energy in, and create an energy clone of itself. Up to 3 or 4. These clones mimic the original's EXACT movement and actions, and each of the smash attacks also serve as commands you can give them. For example,
F- go ahead of me
D- Stay here
U- Follow me
Or something to that effect, this could also be mapped to the other special moves. But again, no matter your position they'll still copy your actions. I still haven't come up with a move set or what the other specials do, I want one to be able to re-absorb a clone and gain a tiny bit of health or a buff of some kind (like temporary increased launch power) and MAYBE his recovery is that he warps to the nearest clone he isn't controlling, but it sounds too similar to Orcane's and Bee dudes Up-B sooo… yeah.

But this is just my basic idea behind how it'll work. It's like a hybrid of Rosalina and Olimar.
Rosalina in the sense that you essentially can serve as a puppeteer to these clones and use them for spacing. Olimar in the sense that the more you have the more better off you'll be, the more useful your smash attacks and your ability to recover. Mind you the clones are easy to dispatch, character itself isn't that strong and can be launched pretty easily, so the clones are going to be integral to the character. (This concept is copyrighted and patented by NBoss, don't steal or I'll sick my squadron of elite attack Lawyers on ya )

So what do ya'll think?

One of the first things that jumps into my head when I read this post is the idea of merging your "minor" idea into your "major" idea.

- Each clone has an element, which determines its stats in the way you described in the minor character, but maybe in a slightly less dramatic way. (No changes in speed or range, for example.)

- As a boss, can have four clones on the field. One of each element. As playable, can only have one. (This is a conservative approach, of course. The possibility of having more should be tested.) Can choose the element of this clone.

- If you wanted an environmental effect, perhaps this character could collapse the clones into damaging energy mines? This has the added bonus of being very villainous if we assume that the clones are alive. (Which they should be, right?)

- Final random idea: Give the character a move similar to Robin's Nosferatu as a pseudo-grab, draining their life force. The clones probably shouldn't mimic this move.

Just suggestions, so you can take 'em or leave 'em. In any case, you've got some really cool ideas here. I'd like to see you flesh them out into (a) full-blown character(s).

(Am I using enough parentheses for you? )

---

Speaking of, I've got more character ideas on the way. I've expanded my raccoon (and he was already overweight!), and developed not one, but two more ideas. They will be posted after I properly format them, so don't you worry. I know you guys are just begging to hear more about fan characters with an actual newcomer on the way.

 

[DrMister]

So this ended up being even harder than I imagined, since Aether is purely spiritual and isn't tangible like the other elements. Even though I came up with a few Ideas, I'm not sure if they would fit the mechanical motif of the game since neither of them do much to alter the environment… well maybe. idk i'll let you guys be the judge on that.
Also I haven't come up with names or backstory yet. I think it's important to establish their in-game abilities first and then build their actual 'character' around that.

So this first Idea I like the concept behind but I don't think holds true to the actual element of Aether, so I'm calling it;
Aether Minor
Each of it's special attacks are associated with a different element.
Up-Wind
Down- earth
Side- Water
Neutral- Fire
Every time you use a special move, it changes your current elemental status. Each status changes the properties of your attacks, for example Earth makes them slow but launches like a catapult, wind makes it weak but super quick and keeps your opponent close to you, fire adds a longer reach or even a projectile etc. This character will probably be a dragon, and I guess in a sense this could be @ RoA_Zam 's lead character since he's changing himself into different forms.

The second idea i think holds more true to the lore of the element, as well as arguably does have a somewhat quality of terrain manipulation in a sense. So this is
Aether Major
Aether (sometimes spelled ether or called prana, tachyon energy, chi, the force) is a life energy that inhabits and surrounds all living creatures in the universe, it's the source of life itself. So this character can breathe in this energy in, and create an energy clone of itself. Up to 3 or 4. These clones mimic the original's EXACT movement and actions, and each of the smash attacks also serve as commands you can give them. For example,
F- go ahead of me
D- Stay here
U- Follow me
Or something to that effect, this could also be mapped to the other special moves. But again, no matter your position they'll still copy your actions. I still haven't come up with a move set or what the other specials do, I want one to be able to re-absorb a clone and gain a tiny bit of health or a buff of some kind (like temporary increased launch power) and MAYBE his recovery is that he warps to the nearest clone he isn't controlling, but it sounds too similar to Orcane's and Bee dudes Up-B sooo… yeah.

But this is just my basic idea behind how it'll work. It's like a hybrid of Rosalina and Olimar.
Rosalina in the sense that you essentially can serve as a puppeteer to these clones and use them for spacing. Olimar in the sense that the more you have the more better off you'll be, the more useful your smash attacks and your ability to recover. Mind you the clones are easy to dispatch, character itself isn't that strong and can be launched pretty easily, so the clones are going to be integral to the character. (This concept is copyrighted and patented by NBoss, don't steal or I'll sick my squadron of elite attack Lawyers on ya )

So what do ya'll think?

Another idea @Streetwize had was make his clone do exactly the same as he does. Take a look at Zero from MvC3. His clone hits around a second after him leading to amazing possibilities. Just another idea, there.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

___Wrastor___VS___Kragg____

1. Ground Normals vs Ground Normals

• 40 vs 60 in Kragg's favor.
• Kragg's jab tends to outrange Wrastor's jab.
• Actually, Kragg's Jab is just incredibly good all-around, and tends to outrange a good amount of options. Plus it's not that slow either.
• Additionally, you can frame-cancel Kragg's 2nd jab into Dtilt for additional damage, something Wrastor cannot do.
• Kragg's Ftilt will deal more damage/knockback against Wrastor's Ftilt in a trade.
• On top of that, Ftilt also seems to beat out Wrastor's jab due to speed/range too.
• Wrastor's Dtilt is effective at shutting down Kragg's jab and Ftilt, but will still trade with his Dtilt.
• Up close, Kragg's Dtilt will catch Wrastor first due to faster startup speed. But at a distance, Wrastor's Dtilt has the most range of all tilts...I think. So it will win.
• Kragg's Dash Attack easily beats out Wrastor's Dash attack...and shuts down most of Wrastor's attacks barring possibly Dtilt.
• Otherwise, Wrastor's Dash Attack is excellent in regards to comboing Kragg, and at lower percents can link into itself.
• Regardless, most of Wrastor's attacks that don't outspeed Kragg's are usually going to trade with Kragg, which isn't good due to Kragg's higher damage output.
• Lastly, Wrastor cannot use smashes on the ground. And Kragg's Usmash and Fsmash are good in regards to catching Wrastor's hurtboxes.

2. Ground Normals (Wrastor) vs Air Normals (Kragg)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Definitely horrible for Wrastor, as his grounded normals are simply just not suited for anti-air situations.
• Ftilt is Wrastor's only reliable anti-air attack, which is either beaten by Kragg's Fair or trades with it.
• Even if Wrastor's Utilt does connect, it is with the sourspot of the move. And it's too slow to use unless you get a really good read on the opponent.
• Which, is very hard to do against Kragg, due to the aforementioned Fair. Or on top of that, Kragg's Nair.
• Kragg's Nair has instantaneous startup, and the best range out of all of the current Nairs. And this, in combination with Fair, shuts down Wrastor's grounded defense outside of mobility and parries.
• Lastly, Kragg's Dair can rarely be used for nasty setups into Uair, which can really ruin Wrastor's day due to his light weight.

3. Air Normals (Wrastor) vs Ground Normals (Kragg)

• 45 vs 55 in Kragg's favor.
• Remember what I said about Kragg's Dash Attack shutting down most of Wrastor's attacks? Well...this applies to his aerials too.
• Not only that, but if Kragg plays patiently, he can effectively space and sometimes outrange Wrastor with Usmash, Fsmash, Ftilt, and Jab.
• Even if these moves trade, Kragg has the advantage due to raw damage output and knockback. The former because Wrastor's aerials deal half of the damage of Kragg's attacks on average, and the later of which (knockback) forces Wrastor into an unfavorable position. Or just outright KO's him.
• On the plus side, once Wrastor gets in, it is hard for Kragg to get out due to his large hurtbox. And if Wrastor is skilled enough, he can continue the combo for quite a while.
• That, and Uair and Fair in particular are really, really good for getting an edge in on Kragg.
• Kragg's Utilt can shut down Wrastor's ability to Dsmash him, but otherwise Wrastor's Dsmash is good for catching Kragg due to his larger size.

4. Air Normals vs Air Normals

• 60 vs 40 in Wrastor's favor.
• One would think that Wrastor would have more of an edge here. But it's not as good of an edge in practice as it is on paper.
• This is because Kragg, even with only two aerials (Fair and Nair), can effectively compete with Wrastor. Due to their range. And for Fair, knockback.
• Additionally, being in the air only means that Kragg's Uair will become more deadly, as both characters are closer to the ceiling blastzone. And Kragg's Uair is just scary.
• Otherwise, this is a solid win for Wrastor (thankfully considering this is his main advantage...). Wrastor's overall speed, range, and mobility in the air are superior.
• Plus, Wrastor now gains access to his own Smashes in the air.
• His Usmash, while effective when sweetspotted, is pretty hard to time and land in practice. I missed the sweetspot of the move on several occasions, and the sourspots didn't do me any favors in regards to their damage and knockback. So I felt a bit dissatisfied with the move whenever I decided to use it, as it had a good chance of leaving me in a bad position. This is probably due to my lack of skill with the character, though I do feel this move needs at least a small buff to become more reliable.
• Because, when Wrastor's sweetspotted Usmash does connect, it's pretty good for sealing the deal.
• The same applies to Wrastor's Fsmash, though Fsmash is much more effective when it comes to aiming the move due to the direction the attack aims at.
• That being said, Wrastor's Fsmash is the main Smash to make note of in regards to stopping Kragg in the air. It has amazing range, and even if you hit with the sourspot, it has just enough knockback to keep you safe and keep the momentum going.
• Plus, when you do sweetspot it, it too is great for landing a KO against Kragg. It also shuts down his Fair and Nair.
• Just be careful about the landing lag of Wrastor's Smashes, especially Fsmash. They are very very bad.

5. Offense vs Offense (includes all normals and specials)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Hoo boy, where to begin...
• Rocks. These things need a nerf, badly. Not only can they be thrown in any direction, but they deal great damage and knockback. Kragg can instantly break them and other characters can't. And when he breaks them, it sends out more projectiles that can mess with the opponent's flow. My suggestion is to nerf how quickly Kragg can pull rocks out of the ground. For example, how fast Peach can pluck turnips in Smash Bros? This can greatly help opponents deal with Kragg's Rocks.
• Additionally, looking more into how other characters can break rocks, as well as how rocks interact with opponents when the block itself collides with the opponent.
• Kragg's other specials can be quite silly too. For example, Side Special. You pretty much have to wait for Kragg to finish Side Special before you are able to attack him, which can be pretty dull at times. Instead of having Super Armor throughout the entire move, attacks that deal over a certain amount of damage should be able to break it. Such as anything stronger than 10%? Because right now, he can just kind of throw it out without really thinking about it.
• My brother also consistently got some pretty silly kills against me by using Up B from high above the stage, and then finishing me off with an Usmash or something. Which is probably intentional by design, but sometimes it feels a little too good? I know that it has been nerfed recently, though I worry if it isn't enough. Time will tell on this one though, I suppose.
• Kragg can play way, way more versatile than Wrastor can. At a distance, Wrastor can only occasionally spam tornados for minor damage. But Kragg can excel either at a distance or at close range.
• Not to mention, because Kragg is more effective in 3 of the 4 situations in which players will use normals to try to outrange/poke/play footsies with the opponent, Kragg has a clear edge over Wrastor overall.
• And while Wrastor has more combos, Kragg's damage output and knockback are more of a match in terms of being overall more effective than Wrastor in a 1-on-1 match. And in footsie situations where Wrastor isn't able to combo Kragg, Kragg is winning by a landslide.
• Oh, and for that 1 situation where Wrastor has an advantage? Kragg has an answer for that too: Knocking him out of the sky with Rocks. Shutting down his aerial approach. Another reason why I feel as though Rocks need to be nerfed.
• Also, forget anything I said about buffing Kragg's Dash Attack. As mentioned twice before, it's really good. Especially in this Wrastor matchup.

6. Offense (Wrastor) vs Defense (Kragg)

• 40 vs 60 in Kragg's favor.
• Just gonna throw this note out there: Playing against a defensive opponent in RoA can be exceptionally tedious, especially in regards to testing with large stock counts. lol
• And as another note, playing offensively in RoA is better than playing defensively, though playing defensively can draw out matches for quite a long time...even though it's not really beneficial if you do so. (At least right now anyways since there is currently no timed matches)
• Basically to sum this up in a nutshell though, Kragg has a ton of tools that allows him to play very versatile defense. But on the other hand, Wrastor has his Wind Current which improves his speed and aerial mobility to help him approach. The big difference that separates the two here is that Kragg's naturally good offense does well to supplement his defense, enough to make Wrastor work for his approaches despite the Wind Current.
• One defensive Kragg strategy that I thought was quite silly was him being able to summon a pillar off of the stage while hugging one of the stage's walls, and just camping there. While my brother was doing this, I was trying to attack him from above, only to be shut down by Utilt and rocks thrown upward. So instead, I tried to jump off and attack him from the side. Want to know what happened next? Well, he anticipated this, and spiked me with Dair when I tried to approach him, netting himself a free KO. And the both of us just laughed. (This could be fixed by adding a timer to the pillar)
• Oh, and Rocks. Lots, and lots of rocks.

7. Defense (Wrastor) vs Offense (Kragg)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Playing defensive Wrastor does not work, at all. At least in an environment where time isn't a factor.
• Even if it was, Wrastor has little outside of mobility and tornados to play excessively defensive. Sure, you can bide time, but Wrastor's low damage output means that if your opponent ever catches you, that advantage you had while trying to run away probably isn't going to amount to much in the long run.
• Especially if the opponent has rocks. Did I mention rocks yet? Because rocks. It's super effective!
• In short, defense in RoA is not fun either for you nor your opponent. But rest assured though: It's nowhere near as bad as Brawl, and settles more along the lines of Smash 4. My opinion of it might be a bit more skewed atm but only because I did a ton of 10 stock matches when recording this data.
• Either way, if you are playing as Wrastor, play offensively. It's how he was made, lol

8. Overall Matchup Evaluation

• 700 point total, 350 vs 350 being an even matchup.
• Wrastor has 275 points, Kragg has 425 points.
• 275 vs 425 = ~40 vs 60 matchup in Kragg's Favor.
• KRAGG WINS!

9. Closing thoughts.

• Honestly, this matchup seems rather borderline. I would say, over time and with more skilled players, Kragg could distance himself even further from Wrastor and the matchup could actually be 35 vs 65 in Kragg's favor or worse. Wrastor's Uair (and to a lesser degree his recovery) helps him alot against Kragg, but the matchup is still 40 vs 60 in Kragg's favor due to all of the reasons I mentioned above.
• To avoid this, Kragg does need a couple of nerfs. Namely the rock's pulling speed, as it is almost instantaneous as it currently stands. That move is definitely problematic, and needs to be looked into. Other nerfs would be Side Special being beaten out by really strong moves (such as 10% or more), possibly some more Up Special nerfs (such as a timer), and a Dash Attack nerf (possibly to hitbox or startup time).
• With the above, and maybe a few buffs to Wrastor (such as the sweetspot on Up Smash), I feel as though this match would definitely be a solid 40 vs 60, still in Kragg's favor (45 vs 55 in Kragg's favor or an even 50 vs 50, likely the former). But currently, I am a bit worried that it may be pushing past that/Kragg being too good or Wrastor not being good enough.

Anyways, that's it for my first matchup analysis. I hope you enjoyed it! I'll try to post more matchup impressions in the coming weeks!

Also, since most people here are playtesting for RoA, post your thoughts about character matchups and overall game balance. Help RoA grow and become more balanced to be enjoyed by future players!

 

[DrMister]

___Wrastor___VS___Kragg____

1. Ground Normals vs Ground Normals

• 40 vs 60 in Kragg's favor.
• Kragg's jab tends to outrange Wrastor's jab.
• Additionally, you can frame-cancel Kragg's 2nd jab into Dtilt for additional damage, something Wrastor cannot do.
• Kragg's Ftilt will deal more damage/knockback against Wrastor's Ftilt in a trade.
• On top of that, Ftilt also seems to beat out Wrastor's jab due to speed/range too.
• Wrastor's Dtilt is effective at shutting down Kragg's jab and Ftilt, but will still trade with his Dtilt.
• Up close, Kragg's Dtilt will catch Wrastor first due to faster startup speed. But at a distance, Wrastor's Dtilt has the most range of all tilts...I think. So it will win.
• Kragg's Dash Attack easily beats out Wrastor's Dash attack...and shuts down most of Wrastor's attacks barring possibly Dtilt.
• Otherwise, Wrastor's Dash Attack is excellent in regards to comboing Kragg, and at lower percents can link into itself.
• Regardless, most of Wrastor's attacks that don't outspeed Kragg's are usually going to trade with Kragg, which isn't good due to Kragg's higher damage output.
• Lastly, Wrastor cannot use smashes on the ground. And Kragg's Usmash and Fsmash are good in regards to catching Wrastor's hurtboxes.

2. Ground Normals (Wrastor) vs Air Normals (Kragg)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Definitely horrible for Wrastor, as his grounded normals are simply just not suited for anti-air situations.
• Ftilt is Wrastor's only reliable anti-air attack, which is either beaten by Kragg's Fair or trades with it.
• Even if Wrastor's Utilt does connect, it is with the sourspot of the move. And it's too slow to use unless you get a really good read on the opponent.
• Which, is very hard to do against Kragg, due to the aforementioned Fair. Or on top of that, Kragg's Nair.
• Kragg's Nair has instantaneous startup, and the best range out of all of the current Nairs. And this, in combination with Fair, shuts down Wrastor's grounded defense outside of mobility and parries.
• Lastly, Kragg's Dair can rarely be used for nasty setups into Uair, which can really ruin Wrastor's day due to his light weight.

3. Air Normals (Wrastor) vs Ground Normals (Kragg)

• 45 vs 55 in Kragg's favor.
• Remember what I said about Kragg's Dash Attack shutting down most of Wrastor's attacks? Well...this applies to his aerials too.
• Not only that, but if Kragg plays patiently, he can effectively space and sometimes outrange Wrastor with Usmash, Fsmash, Ftilt, and Jab.
• Even if these moves trade, Kragg has the advantage due to raw damage output and knockback. The former because Wrastor's aerials deal half of the damage of Kragg's attacks on average, and the later of which (knockback) forces Wrastor into an unfavorable position. Or just outright KO's him.
• On the plus side, once Wrastor gets in, it is hard for Kragg to get out due to his large hurtbox. And if Wrastor is skilled enough, he can continue the combo for quite a while.
• That, and Uair and Fair in particular are really, really good for getting an edge in on Kragg.
• Kragg's Utilt can shut down Wrastor's ability to Dsmash him, but otherwise Wrastor's Dsmash is good for catching Kragg due to his larger size.

4. Air Normals vs Air Normals

• 60 vs 40 in Wrastor's favor.
• One would think that Wrastor would have more of an edge here. But it's not as good of an edge in practice as it is on paper.
• This is because Kragg, even with only two aerials (Fair and Nair), can effectively compete with Wrastor. Due to their range. And for Fair, knockback.
• Additionally, being in the air only means that Kragg's Uair will become more deadly, as both characters are closer to the ceiling blastzone. And Kragg's Uair is just scary.
• Otherwise, this is a solid win for Wrastor (thankfully considering this is his main advantage...). Wrastor's overall speed, range, and ability in the air are superior.
• Plus, Wrastor now gains access to his own Smashes in the air.
• His Usmash, while effective when sweetspotted, is pretty hard to time and land in practice. I missed the sweetspot of the move on several occasions, and the sourspots didn't do me any favors in regards to their damage and knockback. So I felt a bit dissatisfied with the move whenever I decided to use it, as it had a good chance of leaving me in a bad position. This is probably due to my lack of skill with the character, though I do feel this move needs at least a small buff to become more reliable.
• Because, when Wrastor's sweetspotted Usmash does connect, it's pretty good for sealing the deal.
• The same applies to Wrastor's Fsmash, though Fsmash is much more effective when it comes to aiming the move due to the direction the attack aims at.
• That being said, Wrastor's Fsmash is the main Smash to make note of in regards to stopping Kragg in the air. It has amazing range, and even if you hit with the sourspot, it has just enough knockback to keep you safe and keep the momentum going.
• Plus, when you do sweetspot it, it too is great for landing a KO against Kragg. It also shuts down his Fair and Nair.
• Just be careful about the landing lag of Wrastor's Smashes, especially Fsmash. They are very very bad.

5. Offense vs Offense (includes all normals and specials)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Hoo boy, where to begin...
• Rocks. These things need a nerf, badly. Not only can they be thrown in any direction, but they deal great damage and knockback. Kragg can instantly break them and other characters can't. And when he breaks them, it sends out more projectiles that can mess with the opponent's flow. My suggestion is to nerf how quickly Kragg can pull rocks out of the ground. For example, how fast Peach can pluck turnips in Smash Bros? This can greatly help opponents deal with Kragg's Rocks.
• Additionally, looking more into how other characters can break rocks, as well as how rocks interact with opponents when the block itself collides with the opponent.
• Kragg's other specials can be quite silly too. For example, Side Special. You pretty much have to wait for Kragg to finish Side Special before you are able to attack him, which can be pretty dull at times. Instead of having Super Armor throughout the entire move, attacks that deal over a certain amount of damage should be able to break it. Such as anything stronger than 10%? Because right now, he can just kind of throw it out without really thinking about it.
• My brother also consistently got some pretty silly kills against me by using Up B from high above the stage, and then finishing me off with an Usmash or something. Which is probably intentional by design, but sometimes it feels a little too good? I know that it has been nerfed recently, though I worry if it isn't enough. Time will tell on this one though, I suppose.
• Kragg can play way, way more versatile than Wrastor can. At a distance, Wrastor can only occasionally spam tornados for minor damage. But Kragg can excel either at a distance or at close range.
• Not to mention, because Kragg is more effective in 3 of the 4 situations in which players will use normals to try to outrange/poke/play footsies with the opponent, Kragg has a clear edge over Wrastor overall.
• And while Wrastor has more combos, Kragg's damage output and knockback are more of a match in terms of being overall more effective than Wrastor in a 1-on-1 match. And in footsie situations where Wrastor isn't able to combo Kragg, Kragg is winning by a landslide.
• Oh, and for that 1 situation where Wrastor has an advantage? Kragg has an answer for that too: Knocking him out of the sky with Rocks. Shutting down his aerial approach. Another reason why I feel as though Rocks need to be nerfed.
• Also, forget anything I said about buffing Kragg's Dash Attack. As mentioned twice before, it's really good. Especially in this Wrastor matchup.

6. Offense (Wrastor) vs Defense (Kragg)

• 40 vs 60 in Kragg's favor.
• Just gonna throw this note out there: Playing against a defensive opponent in RoA can be exceptionally tedious, especially in regards to testing with large stock counts. lol
• And as another note, playing offensively in RoA is better than playing defensively, though playing defensively can draw out matches for quite a long time...even though it's not really beneficial if you do so. (At least right now anyways since there is currently no timed matches)
• Basically to sum this up in a nutshell though, Kragg has a ton of tools that allows him to play very versatile defense. But on the other hand, Wrastor has his Wind Current which improves his speed and aerial mobility to help him approach. The big difference that separates the two here is that Kragg's naturally good offense does well to supplement his defense, enough to make Wrastor work for his approaches despite the Wind Current.
• One defensive Kragg strategy that I thought was quite silly was him being able to summon a pillar off of the stage while hugging one of the stage's walls, and just camping there. While my brother was doing this, I was trying to attack him from above, only to be shut down by Utilt and rocks thrown upward. So instead, I tried to jump off and attack him from the side. Want to know what happened next? Well, he anticipated this, and spiked me with Dair when I tried to approach him, netting himself a free KO. And the both of us just laughed. (This could be fixed by adding a timer to the pillar)
• Oh, and Rocks. Lots, and lots of rocks.

7. Defense (Wrastor) vs Offense (Kragg)

• 30 vs 70 in Kragg's favor.
• Playing defensive Wrastor does not work, at all. At least in an environment where time isn't a factor.
• Even if it was, Wrastor has little outside of mobility and tornados to play excessively defensive. Sure, you can bide time, but Wrastor's low damage output means that if your opponent ever catches you, that advantage you had while trying to run away probably isn't going to amount to much in the long run.
• Especially if the opponent has rocks. Did I mention rocks yet? Because rocks. It's super effective!
• In short, defense in RoA is not fun either for you nor your opponent. But rest assured though: It's nowhere near as bad as Brawl, and settles more along the lines of Smash 4. My opinion of it might be a bit more skewed atm but only because I did a ton of 10 stock matches when recording this data.
• Either way, if you are playing as Wrastor, play offensively. It's how he was made, lol

8. Overall Matchup Evaluation

• 700 point total, 350 vs 350 being an even matchup.
• Wrastor has 275 points, Kragg has 425 points.
• 275 vs 425 = ~40 vs 60 matchup in Kragg's Favor.
• KRAGG WINS!

9. Closing thoughts.

• Honestly, this matchup seems rather borderline. I would say, over more time and with more skilled players, Kragg could distance himself even further from Wrastor and the matchup could actually be 35 vs 65 in Kragg's favor or worse.
• To avoid this, Kragg does need a couple of nerfs. Namely the rock's pulling speed, as it is almost instantaneous as it currently stands. That move is definitely problematic, and needs to be looked into. Other nerfs would be Side Special being beaten out by really strong moves (such as 10% or more), possibly some more Up Special nerfs (such as a timer), and a Dash Attack nerf (possibly to hitbox or startup time).
• With the above, and maybe a few buffs to Wrastor (such as the sweetspot on Up Smash), I feel as though this match would definitely be a solid 40 vs 60, still in Kragg's favor. But currently, I am a bit worried that it may be pushing past that/Kragg being too good or Wrastor not being good enough.

Anyways, that's it for my first matchup analysis. I hope you enjoyed it! I'll try to post more matchup impressions in the coming weeks!

Also, since most people here are playtesting for RoA, post your thoughts about character matchups and overall game balance. Help RoA grow and become more balanced to be enjoyed by future players!

Hot damn, this is amazing. I agree with everything here. I really dont feel like writing more walls of text today lol. Kragg's rocks are super broken. Another way to balance them is that everyone can break it with a single hit.

 

[Sol_Vent]

Alright, here it is. My outrageously long post of characters, because getting a life can wait!

First up is the very nearly complete version of the first character I posted. The changes since last time are highlighted.

Wood Raccoon (Earth)

Spoiler: The plural is "ninja" not "ninjas" you pleb.

DARENUKI
The Woodwork Shinobi

Appearance
A rotund raccoon with dark brown (maybe ash gray?) fur. Wears a pair of geta sandals that he transforms into various shapes during combat using his ability to manipulate wooden objects.

Lore
A denizen of a small tribe that lives deep within the forests of the earth nation, this short and overweight raccoon claims to be a master of ninjutsu. No one knows what that is, but much to the chagrin of his peers, whatever it is apparently makes him the tribe's strongest warrior. Though his command of the element of wood certainly doesn't hurt, either.
Despite being as much an ordinary raccoon as the rest of his tribe, he insists on being called a "tanuki." No one knows what that is, either. He claims that the strange words he uses to describe himself and his "arts" were taught to him by a mysterious traveler from the far east, but no one else in the tribe has seen such a person. This begs the question of where he actually learned "ninjutsu" in the first place, but anyone who asks is met with the same story about an apparently invisible traveler.

One day, he gallantly announces that me must leave the tribe to protect the forest, nay, the entire nation! The speech illicits groans and murmurs from the gathered crowd, but he is unperturbed. He strides forth to prove himself to his tribe, his nation, and to the whole world!

Gameplay
A tricky air-focused character who is a master of gimps. Most of his onstage game revolves around getting opponents offstage. His quick aerials and aerial movement allow him to go deep for the kill, and he has a few tools to drop on a recovering opponent's head as well.

Primary Smash Inspiration: Wario, Kirby, Jigglypuff

Minor Smash Inspiration: Mario, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Mii Brawler

Other inspiration: Rufus (Street Fighter), Tanooki Suit (Mario series), weeaboos everywhere

Movement
His ground speed is average, probably a tiny bit slower than Zetterburn's. His air speed is quick, but slower that Wrastor's. His aerial mobility, on the other hand, is positively Wario-grade allowing him to erratically move back and forth in the air. He has multiple short double-jumps executed by strainingly fluttering his tail. Fewer jumps than Wrastor, probably around four.

His walking animation has him attempt a ninja run, but he's focusing too much on the frequency of his steps, so he's not actually going very fast...

His run animation has him transform the lower part of his geta into wheels and glide forward leisurely on his makeshift roller skates with his hands clasped at the small of his back.

His parry animation has him turn into a wooden block. He blocks.

Ground Normals
Jab - A palm thrust, follows up into an E. Honda-slaps rapid jab.
Ftilt - A turning kick that strikes with the heel. Visually similar to Rufus's standing medium kick.
Utilt - An almost straight upward kick. Visually similar to Yun/Yang's close range fierce kick.
Dtilt - Sweeps the leg. Similar to Mii Brawler's.

Fsmash - Galactic Tornado! Spins forward a medium-short distance (similar to the average wavedash), hitbox covering his body, then slaps the opponent with a plank of wood. Good KO power and little startup, but long cooldown. A surprise killer.

Usmash - A very fast backflip kick. He sticks the landing in a shaky crane stance. Fast startup, long cooldown.

Dsmash - Faces toward the camera and does a split kick similar to Dsmashes such as Fox's/Falco's/Jigglypuff's. The pain of performing this move is visible on his face.

Aerials
Nair- A tumbling backward somersault. His entire body is a hitbox during the move, but his tail is a constantly moving sweetspot.
Uair- A graceful backflip kick. Covers a lot of area above him, good for combos.
Fair- A straight side kick, similar to Wario's fair.
Bair- A reverse sex kick, reminiscent of Sheik's, but with a far stubbier leg.
Dair- Rufus's divekick, but with a Project M Wario-style bounce when it connects. A meteor smash.

Specials
B- Transforms a geta into a wooden spike with a puff of smoke and throws it straight ahead. If one of his down-b statues is on the field, a spike fires from it as well. If the statue's spike hits him (or vice versa), the spike will bounce off ineffectually.

sideB- One sandal becomes a wooden disc under his foot and twists in place, the other becomes a thin wooden ring that attaches itself to the end of his tail. The move functions a bit like Mario's Cape, stalling in the air and reflecting projectiles, but instead of being flipped around, struck opponents are only pushed back a bit. The exception to this is the wooden ring, which serves as a sweetspot that causes knockback and hitstun, popping opponents upward for a followup.

The statue also twists, moving it forward slightly and giving it a weak hitbox that prevents it from being destroyed. Can also be used to change the direction the statue is facing, allowing you to choose the direction in which it fires spikes.

upB- Morphs both sandals into a wooden plank underneath his feet that comically catapults him into a somersault that deals minor damage and knockback as well as propelling him slightly upward and a fair distance forward. (Similar to ZSS downB trajectory.) Additionally, the plank falls downward and serves as a weak projectile similar to Sonic's spring. As a recovery move, it is best used to juke opponents when recovering high, or ensuring a wall jump when recovering low.

If a statue is on the field, holding the button will catapult the statue instead, allowing it to serve as an arcing projectile.

downB- Transforms into a wooden statue. The move acts similarly to Kirby's Stone, but when ending the transformation, he splits from the statue, leaving it to sit (or fall) as it was. The statue acts similarly to Kragg's blocks, but are somewhat smaller in both height and width. They are broken when attacked, and disappear without consequence. The statue also interacts with his other specials in unique ways.

As far as the actual transformation goes, he has heavy armor during the move. But if he's hit in the air then the hitbox of the move, which launches foes horizontally, disappears until he separates. The startup is quick, but the cooldown (separation) is fairly long. However, he can move left or right at his full air speed during this cooldown period.

Dumb Idea: Clone Character!
VIYUKI
The Snow-cloaked Kunoichi

An arctic fox (who prefers to be called a kitsune) with the same abilities as Darenuki, but using snow rather than wood and wearing platform sandals made of ice. The two see one another as posers at first, but end up falling in love or something.

Functionally identical, basically an alternate costume.

And now the two new characters. I actually have more on them than this, but I'm keeping it simple so it's not so much to digest all at once. I know I'm pretty wordy with my explanations.

Sunlight Peacock (Fire)

Spoiler: And they run when the sun comes up.

REY
A Drop of Golden Sun
The Sun's Envoy

Appearance
An affluent-looking peacock wearing a toga and light underclothes. Carries two fans made of a pliable crystalline substance that refracts light. These fans also conceal blades, and he carries even more blades hidden in his tail.

He can often be seen drinking tea, a drink with jam and bread.

Gameplay
Primary Smash Inspiration: Zelda, Mewtwo

Minor Smash Inspiration: Palutena, Greninja, Fox/Falco, Pit

Other inspiration: Roxas (Kingdom Hearts), Cyber Peacock (Mega Man X4), Setsuka (Soul Calibur), cruel children

Specials
B - Undecided, but definitely a laser projectile. Could be similar to Fox or Falco's Blaster, Pit's arrows, or Rob's laser. I was also thinking of a variant similar to a horizontal version of Palutena's usmash, with the hitbox getting longer and wider the more it was charged.

sideB - Similar to PM Din's Fire. Calls a purely aesthetic beam of light from the top-left corner of the screen that focuses just in front of Rey. It moves away from him as the button is held, but stays on the same horizontal plane no matter what. When the button is released, the focal point expands into a luminescent mine that burns foes like ants under a magnifying glass.

It doesn't disappear when it does damage, it just stays in its little sunspot denying foes entry. However, it fades over time, doing gradually less damage and covering less space until it disappears. It also disappears when Rey begins the move a second time. It will be gone even if he is interrupted in laying down a replacement.

upB - A dash with movement similar to Greninja's upB, but doesn't retain momentum as well and has no windboxes, much less damaging ones. Visually similar to the way Roxas moves about in his KH2: Final Mix+ boss battle. Has three hitboxes:

-One on startup, knocks opponents in the direction he has chosen to travel.
-One halfway through, at which point he can choose to switch directions. This hitbox knocks opponents straight up.
-One at the very end. Minor knockback at a 45 degree angle.

downB - Undecided. Probably a reflector.

Raincloud Frog (Water/Air hybrid)

Spoiler: Politoed's Drizzle made it rain!

ANURAIN
The Cloudhopper

Appearance
Mostly undecided. I'm imagining a young and rather scrawny pre-teen looking frog-boy. Probably a shy and bookish outcast as a result of the stigma surrounding his nature as the spawn of an inter-nation couple.

Maybe he still has his tadpole tail? That would be cute.

Gameplay
Primary Smash Inspiration - Yoshi, Squirtle, possibly Lucas (not enough normals yet to say for sure)

Minor Smash Inspiration - Greninja, Mario

Other Inspiration - Cloud Mario (from Galaxy 2), Japanese superstition, also Orcane and Kragg

Specials
B - A chargable windbox move like Water Gun and F.L.U.D.D. Puffs up his throat sac as the move charges, then purses his lips and blows you off the stage! No damage, of course.

Has the added effect of moving his upB/downB clouds around. Blowing into the cloud from the side moves them away at different speeds based on the charge level. Using it while standing on the clouds causes the cloud to move in the opposite direction the character is facing.

sideB - Rides the wind. Basically an air dash in the traditional fighting game or Megaman X style. A windbox surrounds him, carrying the opponent with him through the air or along the ground a bit. If used on the ground, he can cancel it into a jump like Ike's PM Quickdraw. If he hits a wall, he can cling to it for a short time.

If he uses it while standing on the cloud, it comes with him, but standing on the cloud doesn't recharge the move. You must stand on solid ground for that.

upB - Grabs a cloud of moisture from the air and throws it upward like a snowball. Think of it like Yoshi's upB but with a far more vertical arc/less of a horizontal one. When it "pops" a cloud is created. This cloud can be used as a platform by any fighter, and there can only be one on the field per frog.

On the way up, the cloudball will pierce through opponents that it hits and generally knock them just under where the cloud will appear, setting them up for a downB followup.

downB - Grabs moisture from the air around him and creates a cloud under his feet. When used on the ground, jumps upward to a level similar to Yoshi's/Bowser's downB. Pressing downB while a cloud is on the field will cause it to collapse, raining directly downward as water. How this batch of rain could work is up in the air, it could drag the opponent downward with multiple hits, maybe a single-hit fairly weak meteor, or maybe just hold foes in place with a few hits.

Okay, whew... Any thoughts? In particular, I'd thank anyone with feedback on the first-draft names and the "undecided" moves.


In spite of that, though. I'm just glad I'm done with this for now.

Hey, how about a quadrupedal sword character?

...

 

[Yurya]

So this ended up being even harder than I imagined, since Aether is purely spiritual and isn't tangible like the other elements. Even though I came up with a few Ideas, I'm not sure if they would fit the mechanical motif of the game since neither of them do much to alter the environment… well maybe. idk i'll let you guys be the judge on that.
Also I haven't come up with names or backstory yet. I think it's important to establish their in-game abilities first and then build their actual 'character' around that.

So this first Idea I like the concept behind but I don't think holds true to the actual element of Aether, so I'm calling it;
Aether Minor
Each of it's special attacks are associated with a different element.
Up-Wind
Down- earth
Side- Water
Neutral- Fire
Every time you use a special move, it changes your current elemental status. Each status changes the properties of your attacks, for example Earth makes them slow but launches like a catapult, wind makes it weak but super quick and keeps your opponent close to you, fire adds a longer reach or even a projectile etc. This character will probably be a dragon, and I guess in a sense this could be @ RoA_Zam 's lead character since he's changing himself into different forms.

The second idea i think holds more true to the lore of the element, as well as arguably does have a somewhat quality of terrain manipulation in a sense. So this is
Aether Major
Aether (sometimes spelled ether or called prana, tachyon energy, chi, the force) is a life energy that inhabits and surrounds all living creatures in the universe, it's the source of life itself. So this character can breathe in this energy in, and create an energy clone of itself. Up to 3 or 4. These clones mimic the original's EXACT movement and actions, and each of the smash attacks also serve as commands you can give them. For example,
F- go ahead of me
D- Stay here
U- Follow me
Or something to that effect, this could also be mapped to the other special moves. But again, no matter your position they'll still copy your actions. I still haven't come up with a move set or what the other specials do, I want one to be able to re-absorb a clone and gain a tiny bit of health or a buff of some kind (like temporary increased launch power) and MAYBE his recovery is that he warps to the nearest clone he isn't controlling, but it sounds too similar to Orcane's and Bee dudes Up-B sooo… yeah.

But this is just my basic idea behind how it'll work. It's like a hybrid of Rosalina and Olimar.
Rosalina in the sense that you essentially can serve as a puppeteer to these clones and use them for spacing. Olimar in the sense that the more you have the more better off you'll be, the more useful your smash attacks and your ability to recover. Mind you the clones are easy to dispatch, character itself isn't that strong and can be launched pretty easily, so the clones are going to be integral to the character. (This concept is copyrighted and patented by NBoss, don't steal or I'll sick my squadron of elite attack Lawyers on ya )

So what do ya'll think?

Interesting but much of the joy of playing a Smash game is the simplicity of bopping your opponent. While all of the techniques may be balanced and fair they're boring. Capt. Falcon is still one of the most hype Melee Characters and all he does is Knee.

 

[DrMister]

Interesting but much of the joy of playing a Smash game is the simplicity of bopping your opponent. While all of the techniques may be balanced and fair they're boring. Capt. Falcon is still one of the most hype Melee Characters and all he does is Knee.

That may be true, but this isnt smash. Maybe more technical players could make this character flashy. In the end, not all characters are supposed to be as flashy as a firecracker. Also not boring at all. Clones are pretty cool actually.

 

[akf09]

I think that wrastor actually is the best match up against kragg.... he has the only ranged attack that can consistantly destroy kraggs pillar which is crucial in gimping kragg. no other character can stop krags pillar like wrastor can

 

[RoA_Zam]

@ ItsRainingGravy I'd like at least one mention of recovery anywhere in your matchup guide.

Melee Falco can have an amazing neutral against a ton of characters but his recovery and predictability of it is why he loses matchups, often.

Wrastor literally takes Kragg's pillar recovery and Fair's the living daylight out of it. If Wrastor gets out there fast enough to Fair right after Kragg up Special's (Which is very conveniently easy with Wrastor's side Special at his disposal), gimping Kragg is beyond easy with good Wrastor aerial spacing.

Kragg can't do much to gimp Wrastor due to his many jumps and ability to recovery low to avoid being hit by Kragg's rock.

You didn't seem to factor that in much at all in your matchup guide. It can change a lot.

I'd personally say it's not that far in Kragg's favor at all. 45-55 is the most extreme I'd go but I honestly think they can easily balance each other out as time goes on and changes are made to affect both characters.

 

[arcticfox8]

Wood Raccoon (Earth)

Spoiler: The plural is "ninja" not "ninjas" you pleb.

DARENUKI
The Woodwork Shinobi

Appearance
A rotund raccoon with dark brown (maybe ash gray?) fur. Wears a pair of geta sandals that he transforms into various shapes during combat using his ability to manipulate wooden objects.

Lore
A denizen of a small tribe that lives deep within the forests of the earth nation, this short and overweight raccoon claims to be a master of ninjutsu. No one knows what that is, but much to the chagrin of his peers, whatever it is apparently makes him the tribe's strongest warrior. Though his command of the element of wood certainly doesn't hurt, either.
Despite being as much an ordinary raccoon as the rest of his tribe, he insists on being called a "tanuki." No one knows what that is, either. He claims that the strange words he uses to describe himself and his "arts" were taught to him by a mysterious traveler from the far east, but no one else in the tribe has seen such a person. This begs the question of where he actually learned "ninjutsu" in the first place, but anyone who asks is met with the same story about an apparently invisible traveler.

One day, he gallantly announces that me must leave the tribe to protect the forest, nay, the entire nation! The speech illicits groans and murmurs from the gathered crowd, but he is unperturbed. He strides forth to prove himself to his tribe, his nation, and to the whole world!

Gameplay
A tricky air-focused character who is a master of gimps. Most of his onstage game revolves around getting opponents offstage. His quick aerials and aerial movement allow him to go deep for the kill, and he has a few tools to drop on a recovering opponent's head as well.

Primary Smash Inspiration: Wario, Kirby, Jigglypuff

Minor Smash Inspiration: Mario, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Mii Brawler

Other inspiration: Rufus (Street Fighter), Tanooki Suit (Mario series), weeaboos everywhere

Movement
His ground speed is average, probably a tiny bit slower than Zetterburn's. His air speed is quick, but slower that Wrastor's. His aerial mobility, on the other hand, is positively Wario-grade allowing him to erratically move back and forth in the air. He has multiple short double-jumps executed by strainingly fluttering his tail. Fewer jumps than Wrastor, probably around four.

His walking animation has him attempt a ninja run, but he's focusing too much on the frequency of his steps, so he's not actually going very fast...

His run animation has him transform the lower part of his geta into wheels and glide forward leisurely on his makeshift roller skates with his hands clasped at the small of his back.

His parry animation has him turn into a wooden block. He blocks.

Ground Normals
Jab - A palm thrust, follows up into an E. Honda-slaps rapid jab.
Ftilt - A turning kick that strikes with the heel. Visually similar to Rufus's standing medium kick.
Utilt - An almost straight upward kick. Visually similar to Yun/Yang's close range fierce kick.
Dtilt - Sweeps the leg. Similar to Mii Brawler's.

Fsmash - Galactic Tornado! Spins forward a medium-short distance (similar to the average wavedash), hitbox covering his body, then slaps the opponent with a plank of wood. Good KO power and little startup, but long cooldown. A surprise killer.

Usmash - A very fast backflip kick. He sticks the landing in a shaky crane stance. Fast startup, long cooldown.

Dsmash - Faces toward the camera and does a split kick similar to Dsmashes such as Fox's/Falco's/Jigglypuff's. The pain of performing this move is visible on his face.

Aerials
Nair- A tumbling backward somersault. His entire body is a hitbox during the move, but his tail is a constantly moving sweetspot.
Uair- A graceful backflip kick. Covers a lot of area above him, good for combos.
Fair- A straight side kick, similar to Wario's fair.
Bair- A reverse sex kick, reminiscent of Sheik's, but with a far stubbier leg.
Dair- Rufus's divekick, but with a Project M Wario-style bounce when it connects. A meteor smash.

Specials
B- Transforms a geta into a wooden spike with a puff of smoke and throws it straight ahead. If one of his down-b statues is on the field, a spike fires from it as well. If the statue's spike hits him (or vice versa), the spike will bounce off ineffectually.

sideB- One sandal becomes a wooden disc under his foot and twists in place, the other becomes a thin wooden ring that attaches itself to the end of his tail. The move functions a bit like Mario's Cape, stalling in the air and reflecting projectiles, but instead of being flipped around, struck opponents are only pushed back a bit. The exception to this is the wooden ring, which serves as a sweetspot that causes knockback and hitstun, popping opponents upward for a followup.

The statue also twists, moving it forward slightly and giving it a weak hitbox that prevents it from being destroyed. Can also be used to change the direction the statue is facing, allowing you to choose the direction in which it fires spikes.

upB- Morphs both sandals into a wooden plank underneath his feet that comically catapults him into a somersault that deals minor damage and knockback as well as propelling him slightly upward and a fair distance forward. (Similar to ZSS downB trajectory.) Additionally, the plank falls downward and serves as a weak projectile similar to Sonic's spring. As a recovery move, it is best used to juke opponents when recovering high, or ensuring a wall jump when recovering low.

If a statue is on the field, holding the button will catapult the statue instead, allowing it to serve as an arcing projectile.

downB- Transforms into a wooden statue. The move acts similarly to Kirby's Stone, but when ending the transformation, he splits from the statue, leaving it to sit (or fall) as it was. The statue acts similarly to Kragg's blocks, but are somewhat smaller in both height and width. They are broken when attacked, and disappear without consequence. The statue also interacts with his other specials in unique ways.

As far as the actual transformation goes, he has heavy armor during the move. But if he's hit in the air then the hitbox of the move, which launches foes horizontally, disappears until he separates. The startup is quick, but the cooldown (separation) is fairly long. However, he can move left or right at his full air speed during this cooldown period.

Dumb Idea: Clone Character!
VIYUKI
The Snow-cloaked Kunoichi

An arctic fox (who prefers to be called a kitsune) with the same abilities as Darenuki, but using snow rather than wood and wearing platform sandals made of ice. The two see one another as posers at first, but end up falling in love or something.

Functionally identical, basically an alternate costume.

<3

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ ItsRainingGravy I'd like at least one mention of recovery anywhere in your matchup guide.

Melee Falco can have an amazing neutral against a ton of characters but his recovery and predictability of it is why he loses matchups, often.

Wrastor literally takes Kragg's pillar recovery and Fair's the living daylight out of it. If Wrastor gets out there fast enough to Fair right after Kragg up Special's (Which is very conveniently easy with Wrastor's side Special at his disposal), gimping Kragg is beyond easy with good Wrastor aerial spacing.

Kragg can't do much to gimp Wrastor due to his many jumps and ability to recovery low to avoid being hit by Kragg's rock.

You didn't seem to factor that in much at all in your matchup guide. It can change a lot.

I'd personally say it's not that far in Kragg's favor at all. 45-55 is the most extreme I'd go but I honestly think they can easily balance each other out as time goes on and changes are made to affect both characters.

The thing is, recoveries don't seem to matter too much in RoA's current state of build. Even less so for Wrastor and Kragg as opposed to Zetterburn and Orcane. With proper spacing and DI, my brother and I never really was sent far out enough from the stage to really consider recovering. And during the situations when this did happen, our damage values were already high enough that hitstun locked us into being KOed. It's strange, and feels different from Smash Bros. Though I haven't given it much thought until you mentioned it to me just now.

We did pressure eachother offstage but whenever that happened it was pretty much gg for the defender. Offstage pressure usually always resulted in a KO, but at least to my knowledge, there was never really that many situations where I was forced to use my recovery, because by the time either of us wanted to we had already lost that stock. This could also be due to how all of the recoveries are easily interceptable (Wrastor being the only one that stands out to me but is mitigated somewhat by his low weight), or something about blast zones, or how there's no ledges. I'm not quite sure.

Either way, it is something to note, and I'll look into it whenever my brother gets back, and I'll do a reevaluation of the matchup based on my findings. Thanks for pointing that out though!


Also, I imagine if Wrastor is trying to recover low, Kragg has the option to hit him with Up Special. So, that's something I guess.

And yeah, balance changes are expected since we are playtesting the game

 

[Boss N]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I'll take everyone's suggestions into consideration for the next draft of the character!

Alright, here it is. My outrageously long post of characters, because getting a life can wait!

First up is the very nearly complete version of the first character I posted. The changes since last time are highlighted.
Wood Raccoon (Earth)

DARENUKI
The Woodwork Shinobi

Appearance
A rotund raccoon with dark brown (maybe ash gray?) fur. Wears a pair of geta sandals that he transforms into various shapes during combat using his ability to manipulate wooden objects.

Lore
A denizen of a small tribe that lives deep within the forests of the earth nation, this short and overweight raccoon claims to be a master of ninjutsu. No one knows what that is, but much to the chagrin of his peers, whatever it is apparently makes him the tribe's strongest warrior. Though his command of the element of wood certainly doesn't hurt, either.
Despite being as much an ordinary raccoon as the rest of his tribe, he insists on being called a "tanuki." No one knows what that is, either. He claims that the strange words he uses to describe himself and his "arts" were taught to him by a mysterious traveler from the far east, but no one else in the tribe has seen such a person. This begs the question of where he actually learned "ninjutsu" in the first place, but anyone who asks is met with the same story about an apparently invisible traveler.

One day, he gallantly announces that me must leave the tribe to protect the forest, nay, the entire nation! The speech illicits groans and murmurs from the gathered crowd, but he is unperturbed. He strides forth to prove himself to his tribe, his nation, and to the whole world!

Gameplay
A tricky air-focused character who is a master of gimps. Most of his onstage game revolves around getting opponents offstage. His quick aerials and aerial movement allow him to go deep for the kill, and he has a few tools to drop on a recovering opponent's head as well.

Primary Smash Inspiration: Wario, Kirby, Jigglypuff

Minor Smash Inspiration: Mario, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Mii Brawler

Other inspiration: Rufus (Street Fighter), Tanooki Suit (Mario series), weeaboos everywhere

Movement
His ground speed is average, probably a tiny bit slower than Zetterburn's. His air speed is quick, but slower that Wrastor's. His aerial mobility, on the other hand, is positively Wario-grade allowing him to erratically move back and forth in the air. He has multiple short double-jumps executed by strainingly fluttering his tail. Fewer jumps than Wrastor, probably around four.

His walking animation has him attempt a ninja run, but he's focusing too much on the frequency of his steps, so he's not actually going very fast...

His run animation has him transform the lower part of his geta into wheels and glide forward leisurely on his makeshift roller skates with his hands clasped at the small of his back.

His parry animation has him turn into a wooden block. He blocks.

Ground Normals
Jab - A palm thrust, follows up into an E. Honda-slaps rapid jab.
Ftilt - A turning kick that strikes with the heel. Visually similar to Rufus's standing medium kick.
Utilt - An almost straight upward kick. Visually similar to Yun/Yang's close range fierce kick.
Dtilt - Sweeps the leg. Similar to Mii Brawler's.

Fsmash - Galactic Tornado! Spins forward a medium-short distance (similar to the average wavedash), hitbox covering his body, then slaps the opponent with a plank of wood. Good KO power and little startup, but long cooldown. A surprise killer.

Usmash - A very fast backflip kick. He sticks the landing in a shaky crane stance. Fast startup, long cooldown.

Dsmash - Faces toward the camera and does a split kick similar to Dsmashes such as Fox's/Falco's/Jigglypuff's. The pain of performing this move is visible on his face.

Aerials
Nair- A tumbling backward somersault. His entire body is a hitbox during the move, but his tail is a constantly moving sweetspot.
Uair- A graceful backflip kick. Covers a lot of area above him, good for combos.
Fair- A straight side kick, similar to Wario's fair.
Bair- A reverse sex kick, reminiscent of Sheik's, but with a far stubbier leg.
Dair- Rufus's divekick, but with a Project M Wario-style bounce when it connects. A meteor smash.

Specials
B- Transforms a geta into a wooden spike with a puff of smoke and throws it straight ahead. If one of his down-b statues is on the field, a spike fires from it as well. If the statue's spike hits him (or vice versa), the spike will bounce off ineffectually.

sideB- One sandal becomes a wooden disc under his foot and twists in place, the other becomes a thin wooden ring that attaches itself to the end of his tail. The move functions a bit like Mario's Cape, stalling in the air and reflecting projectiles, but instead of being flipped around, struck opponents are only pushed back a bit. The exception to this is the wooden ring, which serves as a sweetspot that causes knockback and hitstun, popping opponents upward for a followup.

The statue also twists, moving it forward slightly and giving it a weak hitbox that prevents it from being destroyed. Can also be used to change the direction the statue is facing, allowing you to choose the direction in which it fires spikes.

upB- Morphs both sandals into a wooden plank underneath his feet that comically catapults him into a somersault that deals minor damage and knockback as well as propelling him slightly upward and a fair distance forward. (Similar to ZSS downB trajectory.) Additionally, the plank falls downward and serves as a weak projectile similar to Sonic's spring. As a recovery move, it is best used to juke opponents when recovering high, or ensuring a wall jump when recovering low.

If a statue is on the field, holding the button will catapult the statue instead, allowing it to serve as an arcing projectile.

downB- Transforms into a wooden statue. The move acts similarly to Kirby's Stone, but when ending the transformation, he splits from the statue, leaving it to sit (or fall) as it was. The statue acts similarly to Kragg's blocks, but are somewhat smaller in both height and width. They are broken when attacked, and disappear without consequence. The statue also interacts with his other specials in unique ways.

As far as the actual transformation goes, he has heavy armor during the move. But if he's hit in the air then the hitbox of the move, which launches foes horizontally, disappears until he separates. The startup is quick, but the cooldown (separation) is fairly long. However, he can move left or right at his full air speed during this cooldown period.


Okay, whew... Any thoughts? In particular, I'd thank anyone with feedback on the first-draft names and the "undecided" moves.


In spite of that, though. I'm just glad I'm done with this for now.

Hey, how about a quadrupedal sword character?

...

I like the idea behind this, however it seems weird to have him as an Earth element if he's more focused on ariel combat, something that seems far more appropriate for an air element. I'd always imagine an earth character should be more ground game oriented, but that's just me.

Further more I think Wrastor should be the only one with multiple jumps, as it's something that inherently makes him unique in the cast. HOWEVER what you could do is give Darenuki a Peach-esque or even PM Mewtwo float mechanic, that way it'll still give him an advantage in air-combat, as well as an increased incentive to be in the air, while still giving him a unique twist that makes him stand out amongst any other air-based fighters, AND it still makes sense within his Tanooki abilities.

But these are just my personal suggestions, as I said I still really like the idea as it is now. This character gives off a vibe of high risk, high reward, a lot of powerful moves that leave you REALLY vulnerable if you miss and an emphasis on what would normally be called risky gameplay. (Deep Kong Hype) If you can continue to craft the character around this high risk/reward aspect I think we can get a really hype character whose just as much fun to watch as Falcons if in the hands of a master.

 

[4nace]

Wood Raccoon is a cool design. I agree with Boss N that having an earth character based around air combat is a bit strange. A gimp character would be quite cool. The offstage game in Rivals is not as important nor as risky as it is in Smash though currently, so I could see making it fit in would be a bit challenging. I think for the Sun one, its pretty close to a design that I have been tinkering for an Air Variant. I would say you got some cool pieces in there but it doesn't all link together quite like the other characters (think about how Orcane is tied into his puddle.) Finally, I think merging elements can bring up some cool ideas. Air and Water is an interesting mix for sure.

I really love the Aether Minor design. The major idea is neat too, but would get tough in more than 1v1 with that many characters running around on screen :D. You might also be seeing a clone technique real soon though (quite different from what is described here though). I like the idea of changing properties a la Shulk to swap between the elements though. Really cool idea for that type of element.

In terms of the element itself. There is a reason the game is called Rivals of Aether even if the initial roster represents the four classical elements and variants there of.

Also to chime in on the recovery discussion. Totally valid as players play more competitively. I've noticed at first that people think Kragg's recovery is like God Tier. They see it work and see how they can time their jump themselves and think they are on the same level as Wrastor. It isnt until they play someone very aggressive who pursues off stage that they begin to see the weaknesses. You can't really Up Special predictable as Kragg especially if your opponent is at a low percent (which means hitting them won't necessarily save you either)

I do think the match-up discussion is quite good though. Thanks a ton, @ ItsRainingGravy I think there are some changes that could be in order, but with how easy it is to combo Kragg, I wonder if the matchup is indeed that much in Kragg's favor.

-Dan

 

[Burnsy]

Kragg's recovery is defintely not godlike. Zman, my main testing partner, can attest to that. It is very, very exploitable if he isnt smart about it.

And I'm still not convinced that the problems with rock being OP wouldn't be completely fixed by greatly reducing the amount that the rocks spread out as they travel across the screen. It would make it still good and not hard to attempt in neutral, but you need to be able to actually aim it properly, otherwise they'll just hop past it and hit you during the endlag of what move you used to hit the rock. Basically, it would keep it as a primary tool without making it feel sluggish or like a secondary gimmick like adding more startup/endlag/making it 1 health would. Those other suggested changes, in my opinion, would make the move feel a lot less "smooth" to use.

Keep in mind that when games like this are at an early point of development, design rather than balance tends to be the priority. It's easier to make minor adjustments to startup/endlag/damage that round out a character after more specific parts of their design have been nailed down. I think it's good to experiment with one or two changes to the rock, but lets not go overboard. We have a long time to spend figuring out exactly whats too good about it.

This is especially the case with new characters on the way. Even if the balance between these 4 was somehow perfect, just the addition of a new character is gonna upset that and cause Dan to have to do more and more passes for balance. So I say experiment with one rock nerf at a time and we'll see what the appropriate balance between usefulness/fun is after a few versions?

 

[Boss N]

I really love the Aether Minor design. The major idea is neat too, but would get tough in more than 1v1 with that many characters running around on screen :D. You might also be seeing a clone technique real soon though (quite different from what is described here though). I like the idea of changing properties a la Shulk to swap between the elements though. Really cool idea for that type of element.

In terms of the element itself. There is a reason the game is called Rivals of Aether even if the initial roster represents the four classical elements and variants there of.

-Dan

Hmmm good point about 2v2 or F4A, I completely overlooked that. I keep thinking this is a game with exclusively 1v1

Well I'm glad that there might be an Aether character after all, CALLED IT! But if there is already a clone character in the works I guess Aether Major is off the table, shame cuz I finished thinking up of a move set for him But Aether minor still sounds like he's a-go, and speaking of which I now have a name, animal, and backstory for him! And he's playable as both a boss character AND a playable character, obviously the playable one will have alterations to be a lot more balanced and there's story reason explaining how that's possible, but I'll get into that later.

Now Dan I have no idea what your planned vision for the story and world is, so I won't be surprised at all if it doesn't fit in at all. Hopefully it's flexible enough though so by the 1% chance you would like to include it, it's flexible enough to fit in whatever narrative you already have planned. So with that everyone, sit back and enjoy. (also how do you do spoiler tags cuz I didn't realize how much I wrote )




The legends of the Rivals of Aether are sung far and wide throughout the lands, powerful warriors with the might of titans and utilizing magical powers bestowed upon them. These godly abilities are the result of the life energy that radiates from the land and it's creatures. It goes by many names; prana, chi, source, even Aether itself. It exists from the smallest blade of grass to the whale in the sea, but all are connected by it, and all can tap into it.

Many have to spend their entire lives studying this energy to learn how to use it, like the monkeys who reside reclusively in the mountains, spending every waking minute meditating and training. Some are naturally gifted like the Rivals. But there was one race, long forgotten that was intimately connected with this energy more than all others. They where,

The dragons.

From birth to death, they are always tapped into the life force of aether, and where undisputedly the wisest, and most powerful wielders of the art. But the dragons where a peaceful race, they migrated all over the world wishing to spread as much peace, prosperity, and knowledge they could offer. That was, all except one.

His name was Anthos, and when he was a teenager, Anthos discovered there where two sides of Aether. Positive actions like love, compassion, trust, self sacrifice and courage would yield light aether, the only form the dragons know of. Pure light aether can only be utilized externally to affect the environment and people around the user. But negative actions like selfishness, malice, manipulation, violence, jealousy, yield Dark Aether. And Dark Aether can be used internally exclusive to the user, making only them stronger, faster, smarter, and deadlier.

This is why Rivals are often stronger than average citizens, because they're warriors who live in an environment that promotes aggression and violence. Thats not to say they where without light aether, generated by their loyal bonds with their brothers in arms. But Anthos was only interested in Dark Aether, and using the knowledge his kin taught him, he discovered how to tap into it deeper than others before him, and learned that if there's an overwhelming flow of Dark Aether, he can use it to rejuvenate his body, keeping him young and immortal forever.

From that day forward he used his powers to disguise himself as many faces, from lowly peasants to high councilors of kings, and create energy copies of himself to be in multiple places at once. Everywhere he went, the only goal was to create as much chaos, bitterness, resentment and conflict as possible. From initiating issues, to antagonize groups of people until they themselves would escalate the fight, to finally pulling the strings of leaders.The dragon shamans from his tribe felt the disturbance and quickly realized the source, and banded together to topple Anthos.

Anthos, with so much Dark aether flowing through his being, thought that he was invincible, while the shamans couldn't power themselves up individually like Anthos had, they used Light Aether to power each other up instead, creating an overwhelming force that easily matched Anthos. The battle was brutal, bloody, and ravaged the mind as much as the body. But in the end, Anthos was victorious, but only by the skin of his teeth.

He realized that if more dragons banded together, they could easily outmatch him no matter how powerful his own Dark Aether is. So he crept back into the shadows and spread spiteful rumors about the dragons. He inseminated fear and distrust all throughout Aether, until years later nations would enact exile, and even genocide. The dragons where hunted down like vermin and cut down like weeds, if any survived they retreated far away from the land or lie deeply hidden, trapped by the people around them.

Now with his power uncontested, Anthos continued to spread his influence. It took a lifetime worth of work but he had plenty to spare. From individual people in argument, to neighborhood rivalries, to kingdoms in distrust, to nations at war. All where unknowingly just peasants to an empire of shadows. And it's ruler, Anthos, proudly sat on top of his throne of deception, needing to do do nothing more but watch as all of Aether plunged itself into hundreds of years of warfare and turmoil.

Not one soul could match him, and there was no one left to unite together against him. For they where all too busy fighting amongst themselves…. for now.

 

[Puppyfaic]

snip!

"Everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked."

 

[Burnsy]

The fanfic stuff is cool guys, but I think many of you are being a little bit naiive to think your original character or idea has a good chance to make it in the game just because Dan compliments it. Maybe I'm wrong about how the team feels about that, but personally I feel like its something I'd want to avoid if I were them, because once one fan character or the basic idea behind a fan character is confirmed to be added, it will open the floodgates to hundreds of OC proposals and stifle actual discussion of the current game.

One of the other reasons I'm wary of fan designs being officially added into games is because I feel like most of them time there are little quirks of their design, especially visually, that make them stick out, like they don't "fit" because they were never an intended part of the artist/designer's original vision.

Maybe I'm just being a stick in the mud. But I think the designs of the official characters we've seen so far are already ridiculously great! I want to see what other characters Dan and the concept artist Ryan Sicat have in store for us.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

The fanfic stuff is cool guys, but I think many of you are being a little bit naiive to think your original character or idea has a good chance to make it in the game just because Dan compliments it. Maybe I'm wrong about how the team feels about that, but personally I feel like its something I'd want to avoid if I were them, because once one fan character or the basic idea behind a fan character is confirmed to be added, it will open the floodgates to hundreds of OC proposals and stifle actual discussion of the current game.

One of the other reasons I'm wary of fan designs being officially added into games is because I feel like most of them time there are little quirks of their design, especially visually, that make them stick out, like they don't "fit" because they were never an intended part of the artist/designer's original vision.

Maybe I'm just being a stick in the mud. But I think the designs of the official characters we've seen so far are already ridiculously great! I want to see what other characters Dan and the concept artist Ryan Sicat have in store for us.

While I agree,I also think it can't do harm.It could spark an idea in the minds of the developers.And even if not,you still have those designs to use or suggest else where.
Unless,of course,the devs want as little outside influence as possible.

 

[Burnsy]

While I agree,I also think it can't do harm.It could spark an idea in the minds of the developers.And even if not,you still have those designs to use or suggest else where.
Unless,of course,the devs want as little outside influence as possible.

That's true. I guess the bigger part of what I'm trying to say is, that people need to realize that there might be just as good of a chance that they don't use any of our fan ideas or designs. They're cool with people sharing them, but I hope people aren't thinking that means they definitely intend to or are obligated to adopt something designed by a fan. I get the impression from the tone of some of these "idea" posts that they expect the team to be seriously considering adding in their character, and that such an event would be somewhat likely. I think it's more realistic to expect that this wouldn't happen, honestly.

 

[RoA_Zam]

That's true. I guess the bigger part of what I'm trying to say is, that people need to realize that there might be just as good of a chance that they don't use any of our fan ideas or designs. They're cool with people sharing them, but I hope people aren't thinking that means they definitely intend to or are obligated to adopt something designed by a fan. I get the impression from the tone of some of these "idea" posts that they expect the team to be seriously considering adding in their character, and that such an event would be somewhat likely. I think it's more realistic to expect that this wouldn't happen, honestly.

Dan is always open to seeing these ideas, and in PM with me on Skype I believe his idea was that IF he were to include DLC characters, he'd have some kind of poll or way for us to vote upon which one (maybe two) to include.

There's nothing wrong with people posting their ideas. It's great to see the creativity. People just shouldn't get disappointed if their ideas aren't implemented in the end is all.

 

[JCOnyx]

I shared your concern Burnsy earlier in the thread. Dan then replied he was okay seeing this content posted here. Although, character concepts seem to have taken over almost all of the discussion. We should definitely cut back on it some in my opinion.

 

[Burnsy]

Sanic I think you are misinterpreting me a bit except with your last line, which I agree with. I don't think there's a problem with people posting their ideas either, as long as it doesn't consume all discussion. I just am worried that it can get quickly out of hand and am not sure that its best to have it be the main focus of this thread, or of players interested in the game. And yea, with your last bit of your post, I worry that the sheer volume of character ideas could either be setting people up for disappointment if no fan designs get added, and on the other side it might make Dan feel somewhat pressured to include something. Especially with some people working so hard on developing their characters.

(Just to be clear once again: I have no problem with this stuff being posted here either. But I do think it's possible to go a bit overboard.)

 

[Sol_Vent]

I like the idea behind this, however it seems weird to have him as an Earth element if he's more focused on ariel combat, something that seems far more appropriate for an air element. I'd always imagine an earth character should be more ground game oriented, but that's just me.

Further more I think Wrastor should be the only one with multiple jumps, as it's something that inherently makes him unique in the cast. HOWEVER what you could do is give Darenuki a Peach-esque or even PM Mewtwo float mechanic, that way it'll still give him an advantage in air-combat, as well as an increased incentive to be in the air, while still giving him a unique twist that makes him stand out amongst any other air-based fighters, AND it still makes sense within his Tanooki abilities.

But these are just my personal suggestions, as I said I still really like the idea as it is now. This character gives off a vibe of high risk, high reward, a lot of powerful moves that leave you REALLY vulnerable if you miss and an emphasis on what would normally be called risky gameplay. (Deep Kong Hype) If you can continue to craft the character around this high risk/reward aspect I think we can get a really hype character whose just as much fun to watch as Falcons if in the hands of a master.

I'm aware of the weird juxtaposition of an aerially-inclined earth character, but I think that having one "particularly strange" character in that vein is far from out of the question. It makes for good in-element variety, and like you yourself said, gameplay design comes before characterization.

As much as I don't exactly agree with the idea of making characters as distinct as possible just for the sake of it, I actually really really like the idea of using a float. I won't go into detail on what I'm thinking of here, however. And the reasons for that are explained below.

Sanic I think you are misinterpreting me a bit except with your last line, which I agree with. I don't think there's a problem with people posting their ideas either, as long as it doesn't consume all discussion. I just am worried that it can get quickly out of hand and am not sure that its best to have it be the main focus of this thread, or of players interested in the game. And yea, with your last bit of your post, I worry that the sheer volume of character ideas could either be setting people up for disappointment if no fan designs get added, and on the other side it might make Dan feel somewhat pressured to include something. Especially with some people working so hard on developing their characters.

(Just to be clear once again: I have no problem with this stuff being posted here either. But I do think it's possible to go a bit overboard.)

This is entirely fair. I felt very awkward posting my very lengthy fan character post immediately after a matchup analysis, but I didn't want to just sit on it either.

And I know you weren't saying this specifically about me, but I'd like to take this opportunity to make it abundantly clear that I have no intention of putting any pressure on Dan or anyone else in any way. I'm not going to lie and say that the idea of a creation of mine being a large part of an awesome game doesn't excite me, but I understand the nature of what I'm doing here.

Although the characters don't necessarily have to be officially included to be playable...

But more to the point, how would my fellow fan character designers feel about moving discussion of them to a thread in reddit.com/r/RivalsOfAether? Not only would it allow this thread to serve as a bit more for gameplay discussion and speculation, but it would also make more sense organizationally.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Also to chime in on the recovery discussion. Totally valid as players play more competitively. I've noticed at first that people think Kragg's recovery is like God Tier. They see it work and see how they can time their jump themselves and think they are on the same level as Wrastor. It isnt until they play someone very aggressive who pursues off stage that they begin to see the weaknesses. You can't really Up Special predictable as Kragg especially if your opponent is at a low percent (which means hitting them won't necessarily save you either)

I do think the match-up discussion is quite good though. Thanks a ton, @ ItsRainingGravy I think there are some changes that could be in order, but with how easy it is to combo Kragg, I wonder if the matchup is indeed that much in Kragg's favor.

-Dan

You're welcome! And no problem!

In regards to the matchup, I tested it again when I was testing recoveries. Uair does seem incredibly potent against Kragg, and that helps Wrastor out a bit, though I still feel very confident that the match is solidly in Kragg's favor. Anywhere between 45v55 or 40v60 in Kragg's favor, though I earnestly do feel it is a 40v60 match at the moment. Trading favors Kragg a lot more, his rocks are incredibly disruptive and extremely easy to control, his pokes are generally more effective in more situations than Wrastor's pokes, and his ability to control the pace of battle beyond mostly offensive strategies is more varied and effective than Wrastor. There are more tools that Kragg has to place Wrastor in a bad position/to place Wrastor where he wants him to be than Wrastor has for Kragg, outside of Wrastor being up close and personal to Kragg. But even then this isn't always in Wrastor's favor either, because Kragg's Jab/Ftilt/Dtilt/Nair are all incredibly good for trading, damage, and resetting the pace of the match back to neutral (where Kragg is more at an advantage).

Although I didn't really mentioned it in my matchup analysis, I have in the past: Kragg's Jab is incredibly good. That's another move that was able to beat out Wrastor's offense on a number of occasions, to the point where I was surprised by it while testing. And after rethinking about it, it could possibly be a little too good. Specifically with how quick Jab 1 comes out. But I am not sure/I am worried if nerfing the startup lag on his Jab 1 would be too much or not, especially if he is getting nerfs in other areas such as Rocks. It is still far and away the best jab in the game currently, that is for sure.


As for recoveries, I figured out what felt a bit funny to me earlier. The stages are pretty large, but the offstage areas feel slightly too small in comparison/the blastzones almost feel a bit too close sometimes. Most of the matches I had with my brother were on the stages themselves about 80% of the time, with only about 7% of the time we were actively trying to recover/had the chance to recover. The other 13% was when we was in an unfavorable position to recover (such as being chased off of the stage) or we had suffered too much knockback to initiate our recoveries. And that's the difference I felt in comparison to Smash Bros.

RoA, currently, seems much more on-stage centric in comparison to Smash Bros. Off-stage edgeguarding and gimping is still definitely a thing, but it doesn't feel as much of a focus to me in RoA as it does in most of the Smash games. As a whole, recoveries just don't seem to be effective enough to allow players to get back to the stage, and while Smash Bros has always put characters whom are offstage at a rather large disadvantage, that disadvantage in RoA seems even-more common place than in Melee (only by a slight margin though). It feels more like Smash 64 to me currently, but not as bad. Somewhere in the middle between Melee and Smash 64. Because whenever my brother or I was offstage, it was almost always certain that the person who was offstage would lose that stock. It gave me a feeling of "Oh crap, now I'm dead" any time I was off of the stage, and the majority of the time that did indeed turn out to be the case.

Wrastor currently feels like the only character who's recovery really matters, though it only seems to offset his weakness of lower weight a little bit as opposed to increasing his survivability overall. It makes him more effective at offstage pressure, sure, though pretty much everyone in RoA seems capable of doing that with little trouble because the characters in general have poor recoveries. It makes Wrastor's recovery feel a bit overcompensating at times, when he could be a bit more potent in other key areas. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, as I really like Wrastor (I love all of the characters in general lol), but the merits of his strengths don't seem to suit the mechanics/stages of RoA at the same level of quality as Kragg's strengths do. Which is another reason why I feel Kragg has a defenitive edge against him overall. But this is just merely my (current) perspective on things.

Either way, Wrastor easily has my favorite mobility specs in comparison to the rest of the cast, and it makes him feel incredibly fluid to me and I love that. But mobility, so far, seems to be less important to me in RoA in comparison to other character strengths such as hitboxes, attack speed, projectiles, knockback, and damage output. All of which being character traits that Kragg currently excels at.