Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[Streetwize]

Thoughts on Gatling Combos being included in RoA? The only character I don't see it working on is Wrastor ironically. I find it better being used for characters such as Zetterburn and maybe Kragg. This doesn't have to be universal. Maybe Zetterburn can cancel his dash attack to forward or down Smash instead to compensate his lack of momentum cancelling for those moves. I see Kragg benefitting from it too with his poor distance from dash-smashes. Just some food for thought. The balance could easily be distorted with such options now that I really think about it.

 

[Rossuizan]

A highlight from my stream. gfycat.com/PleasedLeafyJellyfish

 

[Fantom]

For those of you who don't have a copy or don't know about how Zetterburn plays, I made a thing:
youtube.com/watch?v=YKwbtvd7Qh4

 

[Xanthus]

I think I recant some of my crying about Kragg's pillar (as far as using it on-stage, I still think stalling is a potential issue), and also a little about his rock after playing more . Once the dthrow-nair is gone, the other rock options aren't quite as strong as maybe i originally thought (dthrow waveland bair, or just falling to the side bair). Except when edgeguarding, especially zetterburn / Kragg; they don't really get back easily against it unless Kragg goes high and side B's through it. Which maybe can just be part of the Kragg matchup with those two characters, it's not overly dominating. On stage you can just parry or roll past the rock burst.

Enjoy some Kragg gifs!
http://gfycat.com/LeafyGaseousChrysomelid
http://gfycat.com/AmazingUnevenCrocodile

In practice, the issues I thought were there aren't as strong. Or at least I couldn't abuse them enough to see a reason to change too much about them. With rock Pillar, I think you can dash dance to dodge the pillar, jump and break the pillar, then double jump to pose some sort of threat to Kragg before he lands on top pillar / can position himself for a good defense / offense. It still drastically changes the way people can play him, but its still too early to tell if it's for better or worse. It might be one of those strats you think is cheap but really isn't that hard to counter.

At the moment I'd like to reiterate that this is a damn fine game you're working on :> I did get one crash report which I'll send via e-mail.

 

[Puppyfaic]

I may want to suggest SOME sort of way out of extended combos be implemented. RoA is quickly shaping to be like 64, where one touch = death combo. Whether it be an aerial parry, some sort of combo breaker, idk, but something needs to be implemented.

 

[JCOnyx]

I may want to suggest SOME sort of way out of extended combos be implemented. RoA is quickly shaping to be like 64, where one touch = death combo. Whether it be an aerial parry, some sort of combo breaker, idk, but something needs to be implemented.

It's for this reason I've actually been doing 5 stock games lol. Good ol' 64 ruleset.

 

[dquarius]

It's for this reason I've actually been doing 5 stock games lol. Good ol' 64 ruleset.

I set mine up to six stocks. kills are very easy to get and the hitstun is long as 64s too

 

[Burnsy]

I disagree when people compare the comboing to 64 and say there needs to be more combo escape opportunities. I dont think a combo heavy game is inherently a bad thing; its a preference thing. And additionally, 64 really didn't have any normal DI like this game does. It only had SDI that was rather weak and difficult to use effectively.

To an extent I can see the similarities, but I think it seems very early to say that long 0-deaths are a bad thing for the game, especially if the whole cast has them. That might make it feel less like modern smash games, but again, I dont believe thats inherently a bad thing, its just different.

 

[akf09]

i feel like 1 combo breaker per match per character would be kinda cool but it would be really sad to start doing an awesome combo and they just break out

 

[Xanthus]

Sideways DI on vertical moves combined with Air dodging, and also teching dairs will get yout out of a LOT of combos. Its still combo heavy but you have a few tools that get you out. Once I told my friend about DI/teching , even though he hadn't really used it before, started to escape some of my simpler combos.

 

[DrMister]

I disagree when people compare the comboing to 64 and say there needs to be more combo escape opportunities. I dont think a combo heavy game is inherently a bad thing; its a preference thing. And additionally, 64 really didn't have any normal DI. Just SDI that was rather weak and difficult to use effectively.

I can see the similarities but I think it seems very early to say that long 0-deaths are a bad thing for the game, especially if the whole cast has them. That might make it feel less like modern smash games, but again, I dont believe thats inherently a bad thing, its just different.

They aren't bad. It gives the game new flavor, but it reminds me too much of traditional fighting games. It they can find a way to lessen hitstun by just a bit, then it'd be somewhat like melee in terms of combo. That's just my little rain of insight on this problem.

 

[Burnsy]

They aren't bad. It gives the game new flavor, but it reminds me too much of traditional fighting games. It they can find a way to lessen hitstun by just a bit, then it'd be somewhat like melee in terms of combo. That's just my little rain of insight on this problem.

Right, but a part of my point is, why should it be somewhat like Melee in terms of combo?

Are you saying its a bad thing that it reminds you of traditional fighting games?

I also agree with Puppyfaic and akf09 that some sort of air combo breaker that you could use very sparingly might be interesting if it were added to the current system. I'm unsure how someone would balance something like that in a platform fighter such as this, but if handled well I think it could be unique and interesting. Again this is something that I think might be interesting and am not really convinced yet that anything "needs" to happen as far as mitigating combo length other than perhaps a few character specific changes.

 

[DrMister]

Right, but a part of my point is, why does it have to be somewhat like Melee in terms of combo?

I also agree with Puppyfaic and akf09 that some sort of air combo breaker that you could use very sparingly might be interesting if it were added to the current system. I'm unsure how someone would balance something like that in a platform fighter such as this, but if handled well I think it could be unique and interesting. Again this is something that I think might be interesting and am not really convinced yet that anything "needs" to happen as far as mitigating combo length other than perhaps a few character specific changes.

I doesnt have to, though. I'm just saying this because many people desire this game to be like Melee. And maybe, but it'd probably be used right when someone's about to finish them. I guess you could implement a way to parry in-air, but I dont really want it because of Air Dodge! Maybe add in some sort of different DI mechanics? I sincerely don't know, haha

 

[RoA_Zam]

I'm going to make a few videos soon showcasing everything that I know about orcane and advanced tech to use with him. I seriously went from not knowing a thing about using him to absolutely loving him.

 

[Burnsy]

I know it's alrady been discussed + replicated, but I highlighted a part of my stream from last night where the CPU Orcane activated the "extra puddle" glitch, just in case additional video examples are helpful.

http://www.twitch.tv/burnsies/c/5707315

I also land a pretty long Wrastor juggle on him before he gets to use the puddles. I didnt notice he had two down right away.

 

[4nace]

I doesnt have to, though. I'm just saying this because many people desire this game to be like Melee. And maybe, but it'd probably be used right when someone's about to finish them. I guess you could implement a way to parry in-air, but I dont really want it because of Air Dodge! Maybe add in some sort of different DI mechanics? I sincerely don't know, haha

I have thought about an in-air parry and have some designs around that. The issue with adding a strong defensive tool like that is that if it is too limited, then as a defender you will wish you had access to it more. If it is too accessible then it greatly impacts the flow and pace of combos. I won't rule out implementing an Air Parry (a combo breaker if you will) but until I see more high level play, it is too hard to discern the necessity.

Right now, DI is the main tool for escape. It's not perfect but it definitely helps escape certain combos. I plan to redesign Smash DI for Rivals soon and give that a clear use to help even more. I am planning to relegate it exclusively to the right stick and not require players to mash it. This should help against certain multi hit attacks (looking at Zetter Nair and Orcane Dair)

-Dan

 

[Fantom]

An in-air parry would be really interesting. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work but I feel like the air should be a vulnerable space. It's hard to say what's better without trying it first. If it's limited properly it wouldn't be too bad, but if it's frequent it would make the game more frustrating than fun.

 

[4nace]

An in-air parry would be really interesting. It'd be interesting to see how it'd work but I feel like the air should be a vulnerable space. It's hard to say what's better without trying it first. If it's limited properly it wouldn't be too bad, but if it's frequent it would make the game more frustrating than fun.

Yeah I chased an Air-Parry down a bit and didn't like where the design was headed. I am thinking about letting players air dodge at 80% through their hitstun again. (which I tried before) You can only air dodge once per jump so if you get caught without your air dodge you'll be in trouble like you are now. If you always waveland out of combos then you become predictable, but if you air dodge up and away and then get caught then you'll lose your air dodge.

The issue with this is that it would make teching even less frequent since the two options would be sharing an input. I could also look at allowing double jumps during the last 20% of hitstun but that would make Wrastor even harder to combo with the traditional characters.

But yeah, there are definitely some solutions to tackle the "always in hitstun" issue. I just want to tred carefully. Rivals is meant to award smart offense and aggression. I don't want to slow the game down by giving the defender too many tools.

-Dan

 

[likiji123]

Yeah I chased an Air-Parry down a bit and didn't like where the design was headed. I am thinking about letting players air dodge at 80% through their hitstun again. (which I tried before) You can only air dodge once per jump so if you get caught without your air dodge you'll be in trouble like you are now. If you always waveland out of combos then you become predictable, but if you air dodge up and away and then get caught then you'll lose your air dodge.

The issue with this is that it would make teching even less frequent since the two options would be sharing an input. I could also look at allowing double jumps during the last 20% of hitstun but that would make Wrastor even harder to combo with the traditional characters.

But yeah, there are definitely some solutions to tackle the "always in hitstun" issue. I just want to tred carefully. Rivals is meant to award smart offense and aggression. I don't want to slow the game down by giving the defender too many tools.

-Dan

why not do some kind of combo breaker where if you get hit enough during a combo you can break out of it via a certain input?

 

[Xanthus]

@ 4nace

I'm going to a LAN party with almost 200 attendees in Kentucky in January (www.lanwar.com). Could I announce a casual tournament (the event is pretty casual and laid back) and demo this game there ? I would keep it locked down on my PC the entire time, but think it'd be cool to get play footage / feedback from players who aren't already competitive smash players (although I'm trying to do a smash tournament, so we might have some). I know you said you were cool with people trying it at smashfests, didn't know if you'd be okay with it at a little larger event.

 

[4nace]

@ 4nace

I'm going to a LAN party with almost 200 attendees in Kentucky in January (www.lanwar.com). Could I announce a casual tournament (the event is pretty casual and laid back) and demo this game there ? I would keep it locked down on my PC the entire time, but think it'd be cool to get play footage / feedback from players who aren't already competitive smash players (although I'm trying to do a smash tournament, so we might have some). I know you said you were cool with people trying it at smashfests, didn't know if you'd be okay with it at a little larger event.

Yeah go for it . If you can get it set up sounds cool. I would imagine you should be able to answer most questions. I'll make sure to get you an updated build if we have one before then.

@ Streetwize
Gattling combos do sound cool. There used to be a mini one on Zetterburn, but I think I removed it by accident with some updates. Will look into returning it to Zetterburn and see if cancelling the dash attack into other attacks makes sense across the roster.

-Dan

 

[dquarius]

@ 4nace I loving how R.o.A. is turning out but i cant help but give a few minor complaints.

Personally I do think the hitstun is way too long at times. I found myself getting KOs from launching opponents from one side of a stage to another just for them to fall into the pit. (bottom screen KO). May I suggest shortening the hitstun of smash attacks abit so these problems wont occur too often?

Secondly, Are you planning on including custom controls for the final build atleast. I am not a huge fan of the cstick in smash and never used it so it kinda brothers me to having use the right analog to preform smashes. If so can you please make an option to use a separate button for smashes that will be awesome.

Lastly, Its just me and more of a nitpick than a complaint but I myself found the Left analog for moving around to be abit sensitive, if possible can you add an option for analog sensitivity and/or the option to move with the dpad?

I've been playing like crazy lately and outside of the glitches and issues already mentioned I've yet to find anything else other than a tech kind of with wrastor I posted earlier.

 

[MrTurner]

Hey everybody :] I got accepted to be a beta tester and so far the game has been an absolute blast. The gameplay feels so smooth and familiar, yet there's enough new stuff brought in to keep me interested even at the extremely early stages.

With that said, I've found a few CSS oddities:

• When you turn on Practice Mode on the Stage Select Screen, all four player slots will be filled up with Zetterburns
• If you have more than one controller plugged in (I'm using 2 gamecube controllers with the Mayflash adapter) it will sometimes try to log in the second controller as player 3. This also seems to be related to practice mode
• I've also noticed that sometimes AI in practice mode will attempt to recover and sometimes they won't, and I have no idea what triggers it.

All in all, I hope all the beta testers (myself included) can help make an amazing and polished game :]

 

[WheelerFGC]

Hey everybody :] I got accepted to be a beta tester and so far the game has been an absolute blast. The gameplay feels so smooth and familiar, yet there's enough new stuff brought in to keep me interested even at the extremely early stages.

With that said, I've found a few CSS oddities:

• When you turn on Practice Mode on the Stage Select Screen, all four player slots will be filled up with Zetterburns
• If you have more than one controller plugged in (I'm using 2 gamecube controllers with the Mayflash adapter) it will sometimes try to log in the second controller as player 3. This also seems to be related to practice mode
• I've also noticed that sometimes AI in practice mode will attempt to recover and sometimes they won't, and I have no idea what triggers it.

All in all, I hope all the beta testers (myself included) can help make an amazing and polished game :]

Ok, on your 3 points:
1. Noticed it too, not sure if it's purposeful or a bug
2. I got nuddin' because the only GC adapter I have is the official SSB4 one, and I only have 1 PC controller.
3. smash has the same problem. It's in how the AI determines when/where they can recover. You can definitely see it in Project M. It can be fixed though (I think)

 

[likiji123]

I have been having so much fun with this game and decided to give my thoughts on the characters
fist up

- something about him seems unbalanced (i think its just the computers AI)
- his neutral special is amazing and is very useful for start ups or set ups to a combo
- his side special dose not seem that useful and is a move i barely touch
- his down special is something that is useful but a move i dont use that often
- his up special also is good for set ups and can be combined with his neutral special to make some great combos
- his Fair is extremely satisfying to pull off
- his Nair seems broken as you can keep linking them one after another
- fighting against wrastor may be difficult as he has multiple jumps and can leave combos quite easily

 

[Puppyfaic]

Some fighting games have tools to stop elongated combos and infinites from becoming things. BlazBlue and Skullgirls are good examples of this. They reduce the amount of hitstun a move gives depending on how far in the combo is. For example, a move such as Lambda's 2C can usually combo into a jumping 5C in a decent combo. But if that combo is going on for a very long time and she tries the same string, it will most likely fail. BlazBlue also uses another system to discourage people from using the same move over and over in a combo. If the same move is used too often, the move's power is decreased and its hitstun becomes practically nil. Then encourages the use of a more diverse playstyle.

TL;DR: Reduce hitstun for moves in relation to how far in a combo is. This would only work for true combos, obviously. Not frame advantage ones. It solves the combo problem without introducing any more defensive options.

 

[DrMister]

Hey everybody :] I got accepted to be a beta tester and so far the game has been an absolute blast. The gameplay feels so smooth and familiar, yet there's enough new stuff brought in to keep me interested even at the extremely early stages.

With that said, I've found a few CSS oddities:

• When you turn on Practice Mode on the Stage Select Screen, all four player slots will be filled up with Zetterburns
• If you have more than one controller plugged in (I'm using 2 gamecube controllers with the Mayflash adapter) it will sometimes try to log in the second controller as player 3. This also seems to be related to practice mode
• I've also noticed that sometimes AI in practice mode will attempt to recover and sometimes they won't, and I have no idea what triggers it.

All in all, I hope all the beta testers (myself included) can help make an amazing and polished game :]

I can easily answer Question 2! Your keyboard is registered as a player. You can move with the arrow keys, and everything, but dont press the Z key or it will crash (lol).

Uhh, complaint 3 seems oddly interesting, it rarely has happened to me, but the times it does happen, it's kinda... meh. Usually if I practice I do 99 Stocks.

 

[MrTurner]

I have been having so much fun with this game and decided to give my thoughts on the characters
fist up

- something about him seems unbalanced (i think its just the computers AI)
- his neutral special is amazing and is very useful for start ups or set ups to a combo
- his side special dose not seem that useful and is a move i barely touch
- his down special is something that is useful but a move i dont use that often
- his up special also is good for set ups and can be combined with his neutral special to make some great combos
- his Fair is extremely satisfying to pull off
- his Nair seems broken as you can keep linking them one after another
- fighting against wrastor may be difficult as he has multiple jumps and can leave combos quite easily

The thing is that you're playing against no DI CPU's, since Nair doesn't usually link against real players and UpB will very rarely grant you any follow ups. Also I don't know about you but I actually really like sideb, since it has a relatively quick startup and super armor it can help you break through smash attacks and trade for a bit of damage.
The only thing I would change about him would be a slight damage or range nerf to the projectile neutralB, since it can rack up damage with relatively low risk.

 

[DrMister]

The thing is that you're playing against no DI CPU's, since Nair doesn't usually link against real players and UpB will very rarely grant you any follow ups. Also I don't know about you but I actually really like sideb, since it has a relatively quick startup and super armor it can help you break through smash attacks and trade for a bit of damage.
The only thing I would change about him would be a slight damage or range nerf to the projectile neutralB, since it can rack up damage with relatively low risk.

Agreed, but add a little recovery nerf. For instance, if you have already summoned an Earth Pillar, you must destroy it to be able to use it. Would really tone down his STELLAR recovery.

 

[Burnsy]

Agreed, but add a little recovery nerf. For instance, if you have already summoned an Earth Pillar, you must destroy it to be able to use it. Would really tone down his STELLAR recovery.

If you up-b as Kragg, you must land on the stage to use it again. He doesn't get a refresh like the other characters, even if he gets hit or wall jumps off the side. Hit Kragg off his pillar once after he's far enough offstage and he's dead. If he's close you may need to hit him twice, once to knock him off the pillar/destroy it and again to stuff his double jump/airdodge/walljump.

Kragg's recovery is typically good don't get me wrong, but it's certainly exploitable

 

[DrMister]

If you up-b as Kragg, you must land on the stage to use it again. He doesn't get a refresh like the other characters, even if he gets hit or wall jumps off the side. Hit Kragg off his pillar once after he's far enough offstage and he's dead. If he's close you may need to hit him twice, once to knock him off the pillar/destroy it and again to stuff his double jump/airdodge/walljump.

Kragg's recovery is typically good don't get me wrong, but it's certainly exploitable

Ah, I see. I really dont use Kragg at all, I preffer Orcane. 'Scuse me, for being so ignorant on that fact . Then no, no real need for a recovery nerf.

 

[Burnsy]

Ah, I see. I really dont use Kragg at all, I preffer Orcane. 'Scuse me, for being so ignorant on that fact . Then no, no real need for a recovery nerf.

No problem. Orcane is my favorite too .

I like everyone tho. There isnt enough Wrastor love around here <3

 

[DrMister]

No problem. Orcane is my favorite too .

I like everyone tho. There isnt enough Wrastor love around here <3

On paper, he sounds like he's the best. C. Falcon, Falco and M. Knight mashed together. Gives me the jitters. But he... isnt. He's not bad though, people generally say he's the weakest, but I disagree.

 

[likiji123]

The thing is that you're playing against no DI CPU's, since Nair doesn't usually link against real players and UpB will very rarely grant you any follow ups. Also I don't know about you but I actually really like sideb, since it has a relatively quick startup and super armor it can help you break through smash attacks and trade for a bit of damage.
The only thing I would change about him would be a slight damage or range nerf to the projectile neutralB, since it can rack up damage with relatively low risk.

Really? i thought they added the DI to the CPU. Well for me i can go from U Special to some other moves like Uair and i can
place a block on the ground then wait for the computer to get near then U Special in the air which will hit them around 3 times. His Side Special for me seems to slow and i can never react with this move.
Yeah i hate to say it but his neturalB is really good, especially when edge guarding.

 

[Burnsy]

Really? i thought they added the DI to the CPU. Well for me i can go from U Special to some other moves like Uair and i can
place a block on the ground then wait for the computer to get near then U Special in the air which will hit them around 3 times. His Side Special for me seems to slow and i can never react with this move.
Yeah i hate to say it but his neturalB is really good, especially when edge guarding.

According to Dan, CPUs were updated to "randomly" DI. There's a couple issues with assumptions of DI against CPU opponents

• Like with all random number generators, it cant be truly random. We don't entirely know what factors influence the DI the CPU chooses (Dan probably does)
• Random DI can lead to situations where the CPU chooses the worst DI choice possible (often worse than no DI) several times in a row in a single combo, as well as the other extreme where they have good DI. How good a CPU is DIing could be anywhere between these two extremes at any given time.
• Which leads into issue number 3; there's no consistency. Human DI is generally based on patterns, you won't run into opponents who randomly choose a direction every time they are hit.

The benefit of having them randomly DI over no DI at all is that it can give you a glimpse at the possible trajectories a single move can send at dependant on DI and percentage, but even this is very limited compared to DI tests with a human opponent because you cannot ask a CPU which way they DI'd or if they included SDI.

 

[MrTurner]

According to Dan, CPUs were updated to "randomly" DI. There's a couple issues with assumptions of DI against CPU opponents

• Like with all random number generators, it cant be truly random. We don't entirely know what factors influence the DI the CPU chooses (Dan probably does)
• Random DI can lead to situations where the CPU chooses the worst DI choice possible (often worse than no DI) several times in a row in a single combo, as well as the other extreme where they have good DI. How good a CPU is DIing could be anywhere between these two extremes at any given time.
• Which leads into issue number 3; there's no consistency. Human DI is generally based on patterns, you won't run into opponents who randomly choose a direction every time they are hit.

The benefit of having them randomly DI over no DI at all is that it can give you a glimpse at the possible trajectories a single move can send at dependant on DI and percentage, but even this is very limited compared to DI tests with a human opponent because you cannot ask a CPU which way they DI'd or if they included SDI.

Interesting. Maybe I've just been very lucky and all of my CPU's DI where I want them to, haha.

Edit: As a side question, are playtesters going to keep getting updated versions as things about the game get changed?

 

[JCOnyx]

On paper, he sounds like he's the best. C. Falcon, Falco and M. Knight mashed together. Gives me the jitters. But he... isnt. He's not bad though, people generally say he's the weakest, but I disagree.

Eh, I'm one to believe Wrastor is the strongest. Something about having multiple jumps and an offstage game that is even better than Meta Knights is something you don't want to underestimate lol. Not to mention an extremely useful projectile.

Also, he's more like Meta Knight, Falco and Marth, don't know why people keep on comparing him to Falcon. The only move he really shares with the captain is his UpTilt which doesn't even have the same utility (the spike). Although I'd be okay slightly weakening it's hitstun to give it a spike sweetspot

Interesting. Maybe I've just been very lucky and all of my CPU's DI where I want them to, haha.

If the cpus are offstage, Dan said they always DI towards the stage as well just as a heads up. That might be what is happening, as I can link a ton of attacks that I probably shouldn't be able to just because I'm close to the edge.

 

[DrMister]

Eh, I'm one to believe Wrastor is the strongest. Something about having multiple jumps and an offstage game that is even better than Meta Knights is something you don't want to underestimate lol. Not to mention an extremely useful projectile.

Also, he's more like Meta Knight, Falco and Marth, don't know why people keep on comparing him to Falcon. The only move he really shares with the captain is his UpTilt which doesn't even have the same utility (the spike). Although I'd be okay slightly weakening it's hitstun to give it a spike sweetspot

If the cpus are offstage, Dan said they always DI towards the stage as well just as a heads up. That might be what is happening, as I can link a ton of attacks that I probably shouldn't be able to just because I'm close to the edge.

He also has the Down-Special in common! But yeah, I guess he is, especially because you need to space in the air too. It's funny really, because thanks to the extra jumps, it's easy to space in-air. (Also he has Marth's Up Air, and idk what else lolol.

 

[RoA_Zam]

In terms of DI, the way Dan handles it might have to change. Or maybe he should add a second CPU mode with better DI.

It should grab the degree angle of the move used on the CPU, and add or subtract 90 degrees from it to give the hardest DI possible away. Or do that, and then multiply the result by (1+x) where x is a randomly generated value from -.5 to .5 . This way there's always DI of some sort, but it's still randomized but never terrible.

Say A CPU is hit directly upwards. With this calculation based on the 90 degree knock back, it would then DI between the ranges of (-45,45) or (135,225) degrees. DI is never necessarily bad then, but this would work a lot better than the CPU always DI'ing towards the stage. It could be that wherever the midpoint of the stage is, his method could override the one I suggested if the horizontal/vertical distance between the character and the center of the stage was a large enough number. That would make CPU recovery the same but while on the stage their DI would be smarter.

That's my thought on the matter.

EDIT: I see a flaw in my math, but you get the idea.

 

[JCOnyx]

He also has the Down-Special in common! But yeah, I guess he is, especially because you need to space in the air too. It's funny really, because thanks to the extra jumps, it's easy to space in-air. (Also he has Marth's Up Air, and idk what else lolol.

Yeah. I tend to forget about his down special since I find it near useless. Thanks for the heads up.

Also, moves similar to Marth would be Fair, UpAir, and UpSpecial.