Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Um....how can you enjoy a plot if the characters in it suck, that makes no sense. A plot revolves around characters and their conflicts, if they are crappy you cant really enjoy the story of their conflict now can you?
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Review: Final Fantasy VII
- Thread starter finalark
- Start date
Darkshadow7827
Smash Lord
Now that I've established my position, I do have to say that a lot of these arguments are subjective.
If good characters = good plot; then this whole (I can't even call it a debate) is lost. Person A could say the characters have no emotion, no originality, no humanity, which causes the plot to suck. Person B could say the characters do have emotion, originality, humanity, and has a good sub-plot. It's completely pointless.
Here's an example with spoilers: This is not my opinion, I'm playing devils advocate
Cid
Cid can suck because he has a vulgar attitude like Barret and is depicted as the typical tough guy who acts like a hard***. The back story may be very underdeveloped seeing as he was an astronaut and doesn't really affect the main story. why should we care if he failed to go to the moon if sephiroth is going to kill everything. you just want to finish the da** main story. 3 more of these character detract from the main plot, and the digression makes the game sh***y.
Cid was awesome because he was human. when visiting his hometown, cid reminisced about his failure and became angry at the world for his failure. This is human since some people do strive for great accomplishments - a man IRL named Tesla tried numerous radical inventions using/ utilizing electricity and magnetism. Needless to say he tried to attentionwh*** his inventions/accomplishments. Anyway, he was also angry (I think at shinra) cause his wife dies making his dream come true the second time (or something like that). Cid shows humanity, and his pain relates to 3 other characters who personally struggled against their own problems.
In conclusion this leads to...
Deze charecterz suxorz and so doo teh pl0t.
N0 dezze charektorz r awsum and make teh pl0t super.
Just let it be. What some people think is good will be bad for others. You can probably see that I don't really care for the sub-plots since I think they were intrusive - hell i don't even remember cid's wife's name (if she had one).
Anyway @ finlark, yea, the license system was a pain in the ***, esp at the beginning. I thought the story was okay. I didn't really like or hate the game, I just thought the plot was too political for me SPOILERS***
(bash and his brother being a judge to get the [name of powerful stone] i forgot.
Overall it was so-so. Long as hell. God, the desert part (Nam-Yensa etc) was long. I also wanted the characters to be less human and more cool looking and superior, specifically Vaan. I don't like playing as teens who look kind of girly. the battle system was too automated for me. Set up the gambits and all you need do is find the baddie and let the gambit work. Another thing, it isn't really big or detracts from my neutrality, is finding rare weapons. I like to collect things if not try to strive for 100%, but I couldn't come close. Find the purple bomb was a rare encounter. Defeating it gives an even rarer drop - yagu darkblade. It probably isn't worth it, but I like to collect if I can
I will give the game this - even though didn't like the gambits, it was pretty original and useful when setup correctly. But it left me buttonless. pretty innovative. The levels were stunning and the chaining and stock drops to sell for money was new and more realistic haha. No more random money coming out of animals. The magick and technique were great. My favorite part - finding and beating the espers. Zodiark was a b****. Story was enough to keep me playing.
If you want a game with a messed up storyline, play Star Ocean 4: Till the End of Time (prepares flameshield). Horrible plot twist, bad - fair characters, good real time battle system, synthesizing boosts into weapons was useful but a pain in the *** to do, bonus dungeon was f***ing annoying as s***. And I like the SO series too. My opinion is adamant on that one.
If good characters = good plot; then this whole (I can't even call it a debate) is lost. Person A could say the characters have no emotion, no originality, no humanity, which causes the plot to suck. Person B could say the characters do have emotion, originality, humanity, and has a good sub-plot. It's completely pointless.
Here's an example with spoilers: This is not my opinion, I'm playing devils advocate
Cid
Cid can suck because he has a vulgar attitude like Barret and is depicted as the typical tough guy who acts like a hard***. The back story may be very underdeveloped seeing as he was an astronaut and doesn't really affect the main story. why should we care if he failed to go to the moon if sephiroth is going to kill everything. you just want to finish the da** main story. 3 more of these character detract from the main plot, and the digression makes the game sh***y.
Cid was awesome because he was human. when visiting his hometown, cid reminisced about his failure and became angry at the world for his failure. This is human since some people do strive for great accomplishments - a man IRL named Tesla tried numerous radical inventions using/ utilizing electricity and magnetism. Needless to say he tried to attentionwh*** his inventions/accomplishments. Anyway, he was also angry (I think at shinra) cause his wife dies making his dream come true the second time (or something like that). Cid shows humanity, and his pain relates to 3 other characters who personally struggled against their own problems.
In conclusion this leads to...
Deze charecterz suxorz and so doo teh pl0t.
N0 dezze charektorz r awsum and make teh pl0t super.
Just let it be. What some people think is good will be bad for others. You can probably see that I don't really care for the sub-plots since I think they were intrusive - hell i don't even remember cid's wife's name (if she had one).
Anyway @ finlark, yea, the license system was a pain in the ***, esp at the beginning. I thought the story was okay. I didn't really like or hate the game, I just thought the plot was too political for me SPOILERS***
(bash and his brother being a judge to get the [name of powerful stone] i forgot.
Overall it was so-so. Long as hell. God, the desert part (Nam-Yensa etc) was long. I also wanted the characters to be less human and more cool looking and superior, specifically Vaan. I don't like playing as teens who look kind of girly. the battle system was too automated for me. Set up the gambits and all you need do is find the baddie and let the gambit work. Another thing, it isn't really big or detracts from my neutrality, is finding rare weapons. I like to collect things if not try to strive for 100%, but I couldn't come close. Find the purple bomb was a rare encounter. Defeating it gives an even rarer drop - yagu darkblade. It probably isn't worth it, but I like to collect if I can
I will give the game this - even though didn't like the gambits, it was pretty original and useful when setup correctly. But it left me buttonless. pretty innovative. The levels were stunning and the chaining and stock drops to sell for money was new and more realistic haha. No more random money coming out of animals. The magick and technique were great. My favorite part - finding and beating the espers. Zodiark was a b****. Story was enough to keep me playing.
If you want a game with a messed up storyline, play Star Ocean 4: Till the End of Time (prepares flameshield). Horrible plot twist, bad - fair characters, good real time battle system, synthesizing boosts into weapons was useful but a pain in the *** to do, bonus dungeon was f***ing annoying as s***. And I like the SO series too. My opinion is adamant on that one.
finalark
SNORLAX
Sorry, I needed to point that out.
That
game with in a game thing
EDIT: I liked the political aspect of Final Fantasy XII. Mostly because I hate real life politics and fictional ones always show you why I hate them.
I think he meant how they look, not how their personality is human or not.
pokesmashfighter
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 60
AKA the kind of person who lives.
finalark
SNORLAX
Barret wasn't an emotionless pick and he's still around by the end of the game.
Frodo was nice guy in Lord of the Rings and he didn't die.
Ratchet was a cool guy and he's still around in all of the R&C games.
My point has been made.
Darkshadow7827
Smash Lord
That was an example. I don't think he's awesome, haha. And yea, i don't like real life politics either
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
SUBJECTIVE! GEEZ! It's YOUR opinion that characters are the most important thing in the plot. I think that poor characters can be overcome by interesting concepts, the setting, the general story, and a score of other different things. It's YOUR OPINION that characters are the soul of the game. I do not agree. Your opinion is your opinion. Not fact. If you can't get that through your stubborn skull, then I am done talking to you.
finalark
SNORLAX
True, but you cannot deny that characters are an important aspect to the story. Although I do understand where you're coming from. For instance I enjoyed some of the Resident Evil stories even though they all have poor characters. Then again, RE's stories are all so poorly written that they come of as hilarious.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Nice avi, btw. FMA is the only anime I've ever watched. Very cool.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
I didn't say the game, I said the PLOT. And games like FF rely VERY strongly on plot to make them good.
Dont twist my words around.
OutlawStar
Smash Apprentice
I guess you are right there,
but on an unrealated/kindof/notreally/still-the-same/whatever!- note,
Final Fantasy 12,
It was a while back when I started this,
and I didn`t really pay attention to the plot,
and I couldn`t understand it all since my vocabulary has improved
significantly since then and stuff, ya know.
So, the story seems all wacked up.
I don`t like politics in real life or usually fake,
(That is to say, not like the cool stuff in FMA, but just the random plot twists, overused stories, whatever)
The characters are boring and strange and wierd and some pointless.
But I kind of like the feel of the game and how the world is big.
The most enjoyment I have gotten so far from it is the bosses,
(and as far as I am, the quickening things are too overpowered, the first judge with that cool golden big sword thing was killed in just one quickening combo O.O)
But some are really challenging, and you really have to know what you are doing to beat them, or just get plain lucky :]
And what I love the most are the sidequests,
and how you can get super-strong weapons really early.
Like the deathbringer at a really early level,
I remember tying for like 3 days to get it, and it feels so good when you finally
do, and you are 10X stronger than the rest of the party
I think it was the Deathbringer,
I remember it was the sword where you have to help this guy, and he gives you keys to a secret place, you go in and there are a lot of tunnels,
and the guys can kill you in 1 hit if you are lv 30 or below, and you have to run by giant flans
or something and open up a chest chance that has like 20% cahnce of the sword being in it,
then you have to run all the way back, being 1 hit killed at a time :D
Anyone remember that?
Darkshadow7827
Smash Lord
Oh man, the zodiac spear. First play through, I opened that stupid pointless chest. The different weapon classes with the different stats were cool too - range, combo likelihood, power, magik boost, etc. As for the quickenings, they were so fun to try to see how long you could last. I always hated it when you shuffle but see the refresh option. The trick was to look at the ovals because the ovals next to the quickening name show up instantly after you shuffle, while the words jumbled on for a sec.
OmegaXF
Smash Ace
I'm an arse? Your the muth****a that can't talk without cursing. I've been completely honest and respectable and on top of that your just being a ****. I didn't miss your point, your just to ****ing stupid to understand my ****ing point. Stupid trolls like you need to stfu and gtfo. I don't have time for your stupidity. How the **** is quality not an opnion, specially when I gave you an example dude your just ****ing dumb. Get off me **** and read the lines an inbetwen them kthnxbai.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
And there's the rage that was missing on page one.
Either you're joking or really scary, which is it. >_> You ****ed with what I said, I said some naughty words, whoop pee.
Either you're joking or really scary, which is it. >_> You ****ed with what I said, I said some naughty words, whoop pee.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Minus the "lol" and you might have surprised me.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Very well. It's YOUR OPINION that the characters are the soul of the PLOT. The motion still stands.
chamberlin
Smash Ace
Since some people don't seem to understand what makes this game great, I'll go some of the areas.
Storyline - While it may seem convoluted at first, this game manages to patch up almost every loose end. Notice how I said ALMOST because there still are a few holes here or there. The story is told through several different viewpoints that you have to put together yourself until near the end of the game when everything is pretty much explained to you. I found it all very complex and intriguing.
Characters - All of you are hating on these characters because you've seen it all before and they don't seem like anything special. This is not the case, because at the time some of these characters were revolutionary. Cloud was the first main character that wasn't a man's man. Much like Shinji was to the anime industry, he was the first hero that didn't solve all of his problems with sheer manliness and had emotional/mental issues to deal with before he could turn on his awesome. Aeris dying was also revolutionary and 'caused a tremendous emotional response out of most people who played the game at the time. I will say that Barret is pretty much Mr. T and don't really have any defense for him. I think he's just supposed to offset a lot of the emo that's going on in the game. I know Cloud and Sephiroth come of as emo and kinda girly, but that was what made them special at the time.
Gameplay - There is so much to do in this game it's ridiculous. People complain about the mini-games, but I had at least a little bit of fun with all of them (except for the submarine). I actually enjoyed the chocobo breeding/racing and the massive rewards that I received from doing it. Ruby and Emerald weapon were VERY hard to beat for most people and provided an excellent challenge. The materia system was very unique for the time and is still a very cool system (and it even factored in to the story of the game). There's a lot more, but I have to stop at some point.
Graphics - They did not age that well, but when the game came out, they were the best graphics anyone had ever seen. My mind was blown by these graphics as was most of the people who played the game when it came out. I can see why you're complaining about the graphics nowadays, but you must understand how good they were at the time it came out.
Music - Do I really need to go in to this? Does anyone actually not like the Final Fantasy 7 music? Well I'm sure there's always a few critics out there who didn't like it, but almost everyone likes the music of this game. It provides AMAZING atmosphere throughout the entire game as well as excellent music to listen to while you're not playing the game.
Anyway, all of you have heard everything I just said before. I don't really know why I had to say all of that anyway, but hey, I'm kinda bored right now. This is actually my second favorate game ever (second to Smash Bros. Melee), so I am a giant fanboy.
Storyline - While it may seem convoluted at first, this game manages to patch up almost every loose end. Notice how I said ALMOST because there still are a few holes here or there. The story is told through several different viewpoints that you have to put together yourself until near the end of the game when everything is pretty much explained to you. I found it all very complex and intriguing.
Characters - All of you are hating on these characters because you've seen it all before and they don't seem like anything special. This is not the case, because at the time some of these characters were revolutionary. Cloud was the first main character that wasn't a man's man. Much like Shinji was to the anime industry, he was the first hero that didn't solve all of his problems with sheer manliness and had emotional/mental issues to deal with before he could turn on his awesome. Aeris dying was also revolutionary and 'caused a tremendous emotional response out of most people who played the game at the time. I will say that Barret is pretty much Mr. T and don't really have any defense for him. I think he's just supposed to offset a lot of the emo that's going on in the game. I know Cloud and Sephiroth come of as emo and kinda girly, but that was what made them special at the time.
Gameplay - There is so much to do in this game it's ridiculous. People complain about the mini-games, but I had at least a little bit of fun with all of them (except for the submarine). I actually enjoyed the chocobo breeding/racing and the massive rewards that I received from doing it. Ruby and Emerald weapon were VERY hard to beat for most people and provided an excellent challenge. The materia system was very unique for the time and is still a very cool system (and it even factored in to the story of the game). There's a lot more, but I have to stop at some point.
Graphics - They did not age that well, but when the game came out, they were the best graphics anyone had ever seen. My mind was blown by these graphics as was most of the people who played the game when it came out. I can see why you're complaining about the graphics nowadays, but you must understand how good they were at the time it came out.
Music - Do I really need to go in to this? Does anyone actually not like the Final Fantasy 7 music? Well I'm sure there's always a few critics out there who didn't like it, but almost everyone likes the music of this game. It provides AMAZING atmosphere throughout the entire game as well as excellent music to listen to while you're not playing the game.
Anyway, all of you have heard everything I just said before. I don't really know why I had to say all of that anyway, but hey, I'm kinda bored right now. This is actually my second favorate game ever (second to Smash Bros. Melee), so I am a giant fanboy.
finalark
SNORLAX
Attention all fanboys: A truly great game doesn't need to be justified with "at the time." A game that is truly great can still be as good now as it was then.
LSDX
Wah!
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,041
Battle of the fanboys commences!
Also to all those saying FF7 is the first game set in modern times and that Cloud is the first "non-manly man" character in RPGs, I point both to Earthbound as a prime example. Besides, there are several Final Fantasies that overshadow FF7, like VI for example.
(Personally, my favorite was FF 1, but that's just me)
Also to all those saying FF7 is the first game set in modern times and that Cloud is the first "non-manly man" character in RPGs, I point both to Earthbound as a prime example. Besides, there are several Final Fantasies that overshadow FF7, like VI for example.
(Personally, my favorite was FF 1, but that's just me)
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
^This. A thousand ****ing times this.
chamberlin
Smash Ace
I don't really care for that kind of thinking. I believe games should be appreciated for innovation. If you were to play "Dune II" for example, you would say it's a pretty crappy RTS. The thing is that it's the very first RTS and paved the road for many of the games that follow it. I would give that game the respect it deserves instead of just calling it a mediocre game.
The graphics of "Ocarina of Time" are also starting to look bad. The guys who made OoT could have simply used sprites like "A Link to the Past". However, they decided to innovate instead and did the best they could with new technology. I would call the graphics of OoT great and give the game makers respect they deserve for innovation instead of judging it by today's graphical standards.
finalark
SNORLAX
People seem to confuse "innovation" with "good game." Just because something innovates or does something new doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good game.
I'll use your example, Dune II. It may have opened a gateway to RTS', but you yourself said that it wasn't a very good game. Here's the way that it works, a game creates a concept but usually doesn't do it very well. Then other games in the future are supposed to master said concept.
For instance, quick time events first appeared in an obscure game from the 80s called Dragon's Lair. It wasn't until several years later (and a notable amount of failed attempts) that Kingdom Hearts II actually mastered it.
chamberlin
Smash Ace
So why would a game maker choose to innovate when they could simply improve upon what's already there? If everyone in the game industry followed that line of thinking, games wouldn't as diverse and interesting as they are today.
I think innovation is important and games should get respect for breaking the mold.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
One could argue God of War did it pretty **** well, and I think that was before KH2.
Although maybe KH2's version is super sexier, I wouldn't know lol.
Hey Chamberlin, SotC broke the mold, and it's still amazing. So uh, no u.
Although maybe KH2's version is super sexier, I wouldn't know lol.
Hey Chamberlin, SotC broke the mold, and it's still amazing. So uh, no u.
finalark
SNORLAX
Well of course something that innovates should be respected. But just because it does something new doesn't mean that it's necessarily good.
chamberlin
Smash Ace
This sounds like difference of opinion time so, it's all good... We're sounding like broken records.
Darkshadow7827
Smash Lord
Mmm graphics. When people ask me what FF games they should play, I usually say 6,7,10 since I've played them. I hesitate at recommending 6 though cause I don't know if they could get past the sprites and midis, even though the storyline is epic. I mean, who doesn't like kefka's laugh. First, second, and third time I played through, I didn't realize kefka was a clown. I thought he just had bright colored clothes or something, haha.
@falconv1.0 I just finished KH 1 and I can't wait to start KH2. I heard KH2 was better.
@falconv1.0 I just finished KH 1 and I can't wait to start KH2. I heard KH2 was better.
finalark
SNORLAX
It was, by a long shot.
And you should recommend five, six, nine and twelve. Because those were the best ones.
chamberlin
Smash Ace
This sounds so much better to me.
Nine and Twelve were garbage.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Enough with the "fanboy" label. All that is is a derogatory name you can use to discredit people. It's very elitist and it's very annoying. I'm not a HUGE fan of FFVII, but I can respect those who are.
SyOn
Smash Journeyman
finalark
SNORLAX
Okay, why were they garbage, then? Honstely, if you're going to discredit something at least give a good reason why.
And don't pull that whole "IX wasn't VII, so that's why it sucked" bull**** that most people pulled.
And the only thing that sucked about XII was the license board.
FB Dj_Iskascribble
Frostbitten
IMO I think the best 3 final fantasys were:
III (i know it was not really three)
II (same)
X (i really loved the story)
but i dont think any of them were bad short of mystic quest. I just played through that again last week and it really is that bad
III (i know it was not really three)
II (same)
X (i really loved the story)
but i dont think any of them were bad short of mystic quest. I just played through that again last week and it really is that bad
Lulzalot
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2009
- Messages
- 22
Are you people actually trying to argue that Final Fantasy VII was a superior game to Final Fanatsy VI? Let alone good? This is hilarious! Please, by all means continue.
You have obviously never played FFV. Its story was only medicore, yet its class system alone made the game good and worth playing.Falconv1.0 said:
chamberlin
Smash Ace
I don't think anyone was even talking about six vs seven, except maybe people listing there favorite Final Fantasy(s)... Both are great games in my opinion.
I think Final Fantasy I, IV, VI, VII, VIII, XI, X, XI, and XII were at least pretty good, and some should even be considered great. The whole series is pretty good overall, and most people have at least one Final Fantasy they like.