Reverse needles.Seriously under rated?

[Pikaville]

I don't know about others but reverse needle cancels are a seriously under rated/talked about move.I mean the other day I got a seriously tasty combo using them.It went d throw>f tilt>f tilt>SH reverse needle cancled b air> 2nd jump> reverse needle canceled f air.I mean the combo opportunities are not talked about enough on the Sheik boards.Im sure im not the only one who thinks this way as well.Ive started using them more and more in my game and recently they are giving me a serious edge against other players.(Most of which are pretty much on par with me all the time)I just think they offer even bigger combo opportunities for Sheik and add more unpredictability to what I think can be quite a predictable character.


Discuss!

 

[NeighborhoodP]

If you got two ftilts in a row, find someone who knows how to DI

 

[soap]

the fact that the needles halt your momentum seriously limits their ability to continue combos, in particular the one you described. its also just pointlessly flashy as you could just double fair. the only thing reverse needles is good for is shuffling running bairs, or a situation when you want to turn around in the air and bair, like edgeguarding

 

[Jihnsius]

Could anyone explain what a reverse needle is?

 

[Viking Ness]

It's when you jump and tap the opposite direction you're traveling and charge a needle. It'll turn you around in the air like shooting a missile does for samus.

 

[Jihnsius]

Oh, as in doing it to turn around and immediately storing it so you're facing the opposite direction?

Never thought of putting that to use.

 

[Pikaville]

If you got two ftilts in a row, find someone who knows how to DI

He did DI I just wavedashed and tilted him again.He could have jumped but he didn't.(the fool)

the fact that the needles halt your momentum seriously limits their ability to continue combos, in particular the one you described. its also just pointlessly flashy as you could just double fair. the only thing reverse needles is good for is shuffling running bairs, or a situation when you want to turn around in the air and bair, like edgeguarding

He was too far away to get with another f air so bair was a much better choice.Also in certain situations reverse needle cancles can be a better choice to combo with than other moves.

Also I wrote down the combo I did wrong it was a f air>b air.Sorry.

 

[h1roshi]

i like how you used it in a combo...very nice and sexy how u used it twice...i just usually use it to egde hog the ledge...or to jump out and turn for a bar like dsf always does...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Manik]

Would this be good for chain grabbing? i suck at SSBM. i used to play it a long time ago and was very interested in sheik, but mainly played mario. now im back into the game and im trying to learn sheik. what are some of the applications for this reverse needle technique besides in a combo like the thread starter described?

 

[WHO?AreYou]

well, as H1roshi said, it can be used to turn yourself around in mid air. This allows you, primarily, to run towards a ledge and turn around and grab that ledge. This can lead to a whole slew of edge-guarding/hogging combinations (a edgehopped Bair, a wall jumped Fair, etc. etc.) That really the only time I tend to use the reverse needles. I use them occasionally to lure someone into a combo (i run away, they pursue and i reverse needle, then use the lack of lag to either run and hit them, or grab them if they sheilded the needles).
Then again, I am still very much a smash noob, and by no means a Sheik master. But since i learned the reverse needle, I find it's a LOT easier to edgeguard people. My suggestion as a fellow noob is to get the motion down. Nothing is more embarrassing than plummeting down to your death with a useless chain flailing. So just practice the reverse needle so you get it down. Try going to Battlefield and jumping off the platforms and reverse needle as you're falling. Once you get it to the point where you can reverse needle a shorthop without touching the ground, you're in good shape. I also watched other people play Sheik. Watching other matches gives you a better sense of when is the right time to use them.
That'd be my advice from one Sheik noob to another. It's really worked for me.

 

[Mcscruff]

I also think reverse needle canceling is underated. It's very useful, especially when you want a grab. I run away from space animals, jump over platform, reverse needle, then fall for f-air or I grab. also useful for edgeguarding. Back throw falco or fox off of stage, jump, reverse needle to face. They die.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

lol this is ironic. I used the reverse needles today after talking about them so much on here.
I was playing a free-for-all on FD with a Falco, a Falcon, and a Ganon. I managed to fair the Ganon off the edge, but as i went to edge guard him, the Falco turned his attention to me, trying to KO me while I wasn't paying attention. I had fully charged needles, so ran toward the edge, doublejumped, reverse needled the falco who was attacking me, then before I touched the ground i did another reverse needle and KO'd the Ganon.
'Twas an epic moment. And about 5 seconds after I managed to pull this off, the first thing i thought of was this thread i had just posted in not hours before.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

I was playing a free-for-all

I stopped.

 

[Pikaville]

I stopped.

Heh heh heh.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

I stopped.

Unfortunately, that's really the only type of Melee at school. Since there are so many people waiting to play, 1 v 1's or even teams aren't practical.

 

[Mcscruff]

how is teams not practical? free-for-alls use just as much players as 2v2's.

 

[Pikaville]

True.There is also nothing better than when you and your team mate pull off an amazing team move.Like my friend plays Marth/Roy in our team matches and he missed the edge with his recovery and I shot him with a reverse needle as I was fighting close to him and he got a second recovery and lived.Great stuff.Also another great(circumstantial) use of reverse needles.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

how is teams not practical? free-for-alls use just as much players as 2v2's.

For some reason, no one who plays ever wants to do teams. Probably because most people who play at my school are not very good...... So what invitably ends up happening is the good players get on vs. two novices and destroy them. This continues on all period long. Then you have the noobs who in teams will pull a marth Link team, and only ^B and >Smash all day long while you try to teach your newbie partner who has played smash twice in his lifetime how not to walk into their attacks.
Partners tend to weigh the game down too much. If you get paired up with someone who isn't good, you have little to no chance of winning.
Free-for-alls, though not as fun as a well put together team match, level the playing field so you could have three relatively good players and one newbie and still have a good match.

 

[Pikaville]

Well I guess thats fair enough.It is quite fun kicking the crap out of noobs though.Especially the ones who think they are amazing(like sora keyblade master)I remember the 2nd tourney I ever went to in Ireland.It had these 5 guys from Killarney(none of you probably know where that is)and they were saying they were probably the best players there.I watched them play an FFA,saw they were pretty bad(no offense to them) and challenged them to a 3 on 1.I used Marth(heh heh)and completely destroyed them.(I won that tournament by the way)Afterwards they asked me how I was so good so I sat with them for about an hour teaching them techs,wavedashing,SHFFL's and stuff.Now they are all pretty **** good.We probably aren't proper smashboards standards though.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

Well I guess thats fair enough.It is quite fun kicking the crap out of noobs though.Especially the ones who think they are amazing(like sora keyblade master)I remember the 2nd tourney I ever went to in Ireland.It had these 5 guys from Killarney(none of you probably know where that is)and they were saying they were probably the best players there.I watched them play an FFA,saw they were pretty bad(no offense to them) and challenged them to a 3 on 1.I used Marth(heh heh)and completely destroyed them.(I won that tournament by the way)Afterwards they asked me how I was so good so I sat with them for about an hour teaching them techs,wavedashing,SHFFL's and stuff.Now they are all pretty **** good.We probably aren't proper smashboards standards though.

Kicking the crap out of noobs is rather enjoyable. The whining about me being "a gay Sheik"....not so much.

 

[R3N0]

That strategy is very interesting, I'll have to try it. I recently saw AceMarth do it at a tournament.. It's just something ya never think of =p.... Other than that I take after KDJ's most amazing sheik =)

 

[Pikaville]

Yeah KDJ is the man.He knows how to take Ken's Marth down that's for sure.I love Marth/Sheiks.They can be so back and foward.Or Sheik can just **** him.

 

[AG4U2NV]

well, as H1roshi said, it can be used to turn yourself around in mid air. This allows you, primarily, to run towards a ledge and turn around and grab that ledge. This can lead to a whole slew of edge-guarding/hogging combinations (a edgehopped Bair, a wall jumped Fair, etc. etc.) That really the only time I tend to use the reverse needles. I use them occasionally to lure someone into a combo (i run away, they pursue and i reverse needle, then use the lack of lag to either run and hit them, or grab them if they sheilded the needles).
Then again, I am still very much a smash noob, and by no means a Sheik master. But since i learned the reverse needle, I find it's a LOT easier to edgeguard people. My suggestion as a fellow noob is to get the motion down. Nothing is more embarrassing than plummeting down to your death with a useless chain flailing. So just practice the reverse needle so you get it down. Try going to Battlefield and jumping off the platforms and reverse needle as you're falling. Once you get it to the point where you can reverse needle a shorthop without touching the ground, you're in good shape. I also watched other people play Sheik. Watching other matches gives you a better sense of when is the right time to use them.
That'd be my advice from one Sheik noob to another. It's really worked for me.

I'm a Sheik,Fox,Falco,Ice Climber,and Peach player and do extremely well playing them(even though I should stick with just atleast 2 characters for less adjusting to all the types of play that come with the different characters) but I find it easier to appoach people with Sheik and Falco(more Sheik than Falco cause of the angle of the needles and no lag)and the reverse needle is useful in many situations and is underatted.

Approaching them with a SH,then reverse needle as a mind game sets them up on both sides cause if they roll backwards then you have room to approach again,they roll towards you then the needles get them and COMBO CITY,or if they spot dodge no lag is for a grab or anything you could think to use at the time.

I'm not "label" as a pro but I have beaten some of them at the Orland MLG pro event even though I didn't win and lost to DaShizWhiz,(He moves constantly,haha)it can put your opponent in a pretty messed up predictment if they don't see it coming right away.

 

[Pikaville]

Thats cool that you got to play some Pro's.I haven't gotten to play any real Pro's in Europe or anywhere.I just play with friends(and foes)here in Ireland.Although we do play a few times a week,especially me,Eoghan,David,Zac and Reece.As frowned upon as it is I tend to judge myself on videos of other players.Sometimes Id be watching a Ken(Marth) vs KDJ(Sheik) and think "Jesus! Me and Davo's matches are pretty much exactly like that!"But you can never tell until you actually play these guys.Ill hopefully be making it to the next big European/English tourney to see how I fare.

 

[Shmooguy]

I'm not "label" as a pro but I have beaten some of them at the Orland MLG pro event

Who did you beat?

Sometimes Id be watching a Ken(Marth) vs KDJ(Sheik) and think "Jesus! Me and Davo's matches are pretty much exactly like that!"

LOOOOOL

While you were watching those vids, did you see KDJ pull off an ftilt > fair > reverse needle bair combo? I don't think i saw him use reverse needles once. Reverse needles aren't underrated. They're good for grabbing the ledge, jumping past the ledge and interrupting recoveries with bair, and if you're running away, you can jump and reverse needle on a platform. They aren't good for mixing fairs/bairs into combos.

 

[AG4U2NV]

Who did you beat?



LOOOOOL

While you were watching those vids, did you see KDJ pull off an ftilt > fair > reverse needle bair combo? I don't think i saw him use reverse needles once. Reverse needles aren't underrated. They're good for grabbing the ledge, jumping past the ledge and interrupting recoveries with bair, and if you're running away, you can jump and reverse needle on a platform. They aren't good for mixing fairs/bairs into combos.

PC Chris is the only one i can remember but he wasn't using is Falco he was using Peach which in my "opinion" is harder for Sheik anyway.
And no it wasn't a money match just a friendly match.

 

[Pikaville]

Who did you beat?



LOOOOOL

While you were watching those vids, did you see KDJ pull off an ftilt > fair > reverse needle bair combo? I don't think i saw him use reverse needles once. Reverse needles aren't underrated. They're good for grabbing the ledge, jumping past the ledge and interrupting recoveries with bair, and if you're running away, you can jump and reverse needle on a platform. They aren't good for mixing fairs/bairs into combos.

I didn't mean it like that.I meant that alot of combos/situations they were doing/in were very similar to things we'd do.As for that "did you see him do such and such combo" no I didn't but if you were playing Ken you wouldn't try risky,easy to mess up stuff and get ***** for it now would you?Reverse needles are tricky to use in succession and only usefull in certain circumstances.Also how are they not good for mixing f air and b air into combos?It pretty much the only practical way to do it unless you have lightspeed fingers.(or play with the "claw" on your right hand)

 

[Shai Hulud]

Reverse needle cancelling has way more uses than have been discussed in this thread. I think the reason it's underrated is because using it to its fullest is fairly difficult and Sheik players tend to suck (let's face it).

There are tons of uses around the ledge, but most of them will get you killed if you mess up. For instance, ledge-drop=>reverse needle cancel=>DJ FAIR. Also, you can jump off the side with FAIR => DJ reverse needle cancel => edgehog (much faster than up-B to the ledge). You could also jump off the side with BAIR => DJ reverse needle cancel FAIR => up-B to edgehog.

You can ledge-hop reverse needles onto the stage. You can ledgehop needle-cancel repeatedly as a way to store up needles in a relatively safe position.

Reverse needle cancelling and needle cancelling in general are great for mindgames, as well. I like to dash away => full jump reverse needles, then I can either shoot the needles or store them to a fast-fallen FAIR, or even store them to DJ needles or DJ needle-cancel to fast-fallen FAIR.

You can dash away and if your opponent chases you, SH => reverse needle cancel => FAIR. They won't know what hit them!

These are just some things I've come up with in the last day or two. I'm sure there are many more uses.

 

[brickman]

Good call, lots of interesting tactics, going to put some of them to use at SMYM 7!

 

[soap]

those are some good points HUlud, i use all of those, ive done a ton of experimenting with the needle cancels and the possibilities are endless really, i mean you cancel a move in midair and do anything you want

an interesting thing i do is a variant of the running through shields mindgame. i jump over shields reverse needle to an aerial on the back of their shield and then start pressuring their shields with jabs and uptilts or just grab them, there is not much they can do in that situation

Another thing is approach with a sh needle, store then waveland for spacing. Or sh reverse needle waveland through their shield so you end up behind them like the first scenario and grab.

I walltech jump the fin on corneria reverse needle grab the fin then come down with an invincible aerial.

Something fun that requires quick fingers is walljumped reverse needle bairs.

on another note a little tip is that i "lightshield" or lighttap R quickly to needle store, i feel like it is quicker and easier to do repeated needle cancels faster. Z works pretty good too but my fingers always on R.

 

[Fitty cent]

reverse needles have their uses but sometimes i'll be trying to jump back to gain a little space and then needle grab but i'll wind up reverse needling instead. its only a little frustrating though. all in all reverse needles are good

 

[tw0 side]

I have never yet used, or heard of, this technique but am anxious to now.

 

[araknophobik]

They're good for grabbing the ledge, jumping past the ledge and interrupting recoveries with bair, and if you're running away, you can jump and reverse needle on a platform. They aren't good for mixing fairs/bairs into combos.

i think i gotta disagree with you on that one kira
i use the needle cancel's for combo's, or actually everytime im in the air lol, it gives me time in the air to consider a fair, throw the needles, or if they roll under me i use a bair. I've fair'd someone off the map and then did a reverse needle to a bair to make sure they're far from the stage =)

 

[Det]

i think i gotta disagree with you on that one kira
i use the needle cancel's for combo's, or actually everytime im in the air lol, it gives me time in the air to consider a fair, throw the needles, or if they roll under me i use a bair. I've fair'd someone off the map and then did a reverse needle to a bair to make sure they're far from the stage =)

Wow, I seriously am going to try that... may take me a while to get that down, though... I myself have considered this a limited use, and rarely even use it...

 

[araknophobik]

Yeah, i kinda use it as a edgegaurd mindgame
check out me vs emerican from some old tourny lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErHQ3mk-M0s
at around 45-48 you see me needle cancel about to fair, but instead i jump back onto the stage and dsmash

this also worked on tavo in a tournament a week ago
he thought i was going to reverse needle cancel onto the ledge so he teleported directly onto the stage
but instead i stayed needle canceling and when he landed i slapped him off

alot of it is luck though so dont think im making myself to be great, it just sometimes works i guess =/

 

[KokiriEmblem]

These strategies sound great! So reverse needles let you
stop surprise attacks, surround an enemy or recover easier?