Rethinking the Doc vs. Mario (and apparently Doc and Tournaments)

[Bullet Bill]

If you can't win with a non high tier character then don't pick them. No johns.

Cyphus- why have you been playing Doc all this time then? Seems a bit pointless to me. Clearly Doc and any other non-high tier character is just a 'fun' character so whats the point in taking them seriously.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i think i can help out on that one

he plays doc because he likes doc.

lol he just doesn't want everyone freaking out thinking doc is better than he is, and doesn't want people assuming that doc is way better than mario because "pillz > firebalze"

thats my guess at least

 

[NES n00b]

If you can't win with a non high tier character then don't pick them. No johns.

Cyphus- why have you been playing Doc all this time then? Seems a bit pointless to me. Clearly Doc and any other non-high tier character is just a 'fun' character so whats the point in taking them seriously.

People don't pick non high tier characters to win MLG and other big tournies.

Some people just likes certain characters and tries to push them as far as they can go. I like playing Link and Mario so I try to win with them in not so favorable matchups. I do realize that I will probably lose against good high tier users, but I do not give myself a break. I always push myself to see if I can get that one more stock off, that one win, that one set. I

I do agree no johns, though. I never say that "You won because you use Fox." All I know is that it is a ***** of a matchup and that I need to get better to beat that person using the Fox. I always say that I lost because I am not a good enough player to win not all because of the matchup (though you have to admit it has alot to do with results >_<). I especially think this since I don't go to major tournies. Still, the thing is that Doc is just too low tier to win big tournies with. As long as you don't complain about it, I don't see what is wrong in realizing that the goal of winning a major tourney with Doc is impossible.

Edit: I think he did this thing because Doc's fair and pills are overatted by most people. Also, Mario's inability to kill is not as bad as some people say. Before anyone says anything, yes it is very frustrating to try to kill with Mario against a lot of characters. XD

 

[Bullet Bill]

This is my last post in this thread. Basically, sorry I got so angry and sorry for going off topic. But it is annoying to hear a great Doc player like Cyphus talk so negatively about Doc. He CAN WIN TOURNAMENTS if you play well. Bad matchups do not lose you the match before you've even started. Pick any character you want and as many characters as you want. No johns. It's up to you to make sure that you get your opponent down to 0 stock faster than they do. Call me inexperienced, I don't care, this is my opinion and none of you can say I'm wrong. Cyphus has played Doc for a loong time and yeah his Doc does own. I have only played in 3 tournaments. This doesn't however make my opinion wrong and your opinion right cyphus.

 

[St. Viers]

People, stop trying to get into a fight here...

All right, raise your hand if you think you could ever take down KDJ or M2K with doc, knowing that they will probably use Marth, and know how to use Marth far better than anyone you play locally?

*looks around* exactly.

I love doc, and I will continue to main him. I use him against falco (Gasp) and fox. Against sheik though, I go with fox/falco or doc, and against marth I'll go sheik or doc, depending on the circumstances. I am just more comfortable with him than any other character, so if I'm nervous I'll stick to him.

I'm simply not good enough for me being a higher tier character to make a difference except in extreme matchups. That doesn't mean he is as able to win--it just means I'll do better with him up to a certain point.

I agree that he has more potential for success, he doesn't have the amount that marth, fox or sheik do. He has relatively decent matchups againt the top tier compared to many other characters, and can hold his own against those in the lower part of high tier.
But, lets compare him to the people who win tournies.

v Fox:
Speed: fox
Melee combat: slightly fox
Aerial combat: even
Ranged combat: even (depends on use, imo)
KO- ability: fox
Combos: Even (Doc can combo, just not as obviously as fox)
Recovery: fox for distance, tie for predictablilty
Edge-guarding: Doc/tie (cape, b-air, and n-air as IMO just as good as shine, b-air, and n-air)

v Falco:
Speed: even
Melee combat: Even
Aerial combat: even
Ranged Combat: falco
Combos: Falco
KO ability: even
Recovery: Doc
Edgeguarding: Doc

v Marth
Speed: Marth
Melee combat: Marth (except extreme close range)
Aerial combat: Marth
Ranged combat: Doc
KO- ability: Marth
Combos: Marth
Recovery: Marth
Edge-guarding: Even


v Marth
Speed: Sheik
Melee combat: Sheik
Aerial combat: even
Ranged combat: Even
KO- ability: Doc
Combos: Sheik
Recovery: Sheik
Edge-guarding: Sheik

This isn't in a doc v them fight, but comparing them to each other v everybody. By KO ability I don't mean through combos, but rather the ability to use a smash to KO. Combo-ing includes grabs, and ranged combat includes spamming.

These are IMO what makes characters "gay" as you people call them, and just a basis (beside individual skill) on why they are so good--and why they win tournies.

Don't flame me if you disagree with something, I know I'm not good in practice; I do however "know" things, even if I don't put them into use playing...so try and discuss civilly.

 

[eighteenspikes]

PROVE me wrong by winning a major tournament with a low-tier.

I don't see what is wrong in realizing that the goal of winning a major tourney with Doc is impossible.

All right, raise your hand if you think you could ever take down KDJ or M2K with doc, knowing that they will probably use Marth, and know how to use Marth far better than anyone you play locally?

*looks around* exactly.

Please stop with this kind of reasoning! Who thinks they could take out KDJ or M2K with ANY character? Who here on this ENTIRE all-encompassing Smashboards.com forum would be confident they could win a national tournament, with their best character? Maybe like 3 or 4 people?

Knock it off.

I'm good enough to win state tournaments. I have won money in singles and/or teams in probably every local tournament I've been to this entire year. I do not use any character besides Doctor Mario in tournament matches. I have taken out Marths, Sheiks, Foxes, and Falcos without prejudice. And you know what? I'm confident I couldn't compete at a national level no matter what character was my best. I'm just not that good at the game in general. And besides Mew2King, nobody who has posted in this thread is that good either, so just knock this crap off. Leave your bickering to the players this kind of discussion applies to. At the state/local level you should be able to play whoever you **** well please, that's all it boils down to.

 

[NES n00b]

At the state/local level you should be able to play whoever you **** well please, that's all it boils down to.

Didn't I say that? I did say that it is possible to win at the state level and regional level as long as you are not in Cali, Maryland, or VA (and maybe others but these come to mind). I am guessing that you did not read that part before that sentence.

And yay, when did you figure out I was not good? The fact that I am not in the power rankings, do not place well in tournies, and is not known? lol I already knew that I am not good. I believe if that I work hard enough and have the talent, I can be the best smasher in the midsouth only using Link.

I am just realistic in that you can't win in the national level with Doc. Whatever, most people won't go that far anyways so play who you want and you maybe the best in your state/region using a low tier character like -Chad-.

 

[BigRick]

lol some ppl are feeling butthurt...

truth does hurt indeed

 

[NES n00b]

lol some ppl are feeling butthurt...

truth does hurt indeed

That I am not that good? Not really. I have only been going to tournies for 4 months so yeah. . . . . . . . . .I just know that at a national scale I am not that good. In my little region, I do ok, but it is nothing to really brag about.

In fact, I think I am doing very well for someone who has been playing tournies for 4 months.

Edit: I responded the way I did because I really don't like the "You all are not that good anyway" arguement. I wouldn't know eighteen spikes if I didn't see that combo vid (which is good by the way) so I could have said the same thing without knowing that he actually plays well.

 

[St. Viers]

@18spikes: Sorry if that came off wrong. I'm partially biased because KDJ is at like every tournie I've gone to, and so I do think of maybe trying to beat him someday. I don't have the option of just winning locally. No johns though. I agree that for most people the tiers don't change much. Especially as Doc CAN hold his own against everyone.

However, I was talking about in highest levels of smash play, where the advantages I pointed out become more and more obvious.

 

[NES n00b]

Oh darn, just read the part where he says that everyone is not that good as Mew2King. Sorry then. I need to read better in the future.

The point is in the highest levels of play, everyone is close to equal in skill. If they don't use the high tier characters, then their opponent will have the advantage over them and that would decide the tourney. This is why Doc can win a big tourney where all the pros go.

Again, sorry for misunderstanding you 18spikes.

 

[mood4food77]

doc's pills are better for the reason that where they're going isn't easy to predict due to the shape of the pill, remember, a pill bounces at different trajectories from different heights

also, doc can chain uairs and bairs longer for the fact that they are weaker than mario's and do have less knockback

doc also has an overall slight reach advantage over mario (i think someone showed the hitbox's of both and doc's happened to be quite a bit longer on most moves)

another thing doc has over mario, is the fact he can kill whenever pretty much, he has the 2nd highest KO power in the game, under ganon (of course)

doc's cape is better for edgegaurding for the fact that it can reach underneath the ledge, which gives it a chance to hit sweetspotters at the last second

but in reality, it's the fact that doc does better against, fox, falco, ganon, falcon and jiggs than mario does

mario does better against sheik, marth, pika, pichu, and peach

basically, what changes those match-ups is the fireball/pill and the fsmashes

mario is better at spacing with his pill than doc is and his fsmash is disjointed, able to cancel out some of marth's attacks

and mario is slightly faster than doc in the landing lag area

 

[Matador]

I completely agree that M2k, KDJ, PC, Chudat, and the rest of the top pros are insanely good; that's undeniable. But you can't make that kind of blanket statement that Doc can't win a major tournament. And I'm not blind, I'm not saying Bowser or Mewtwo have just as much of a shot, because they don't. Even if you have to go pro after pro using doc and counterpicking when necessary, it's not impossible to beat KDJ and PC with Doc, thinking that is kinda stupid.