Rethinking the Doc vs. Mario (and apparently Doc and Tournaments)

[Cyphus]

lemme put it this way...
I never said doc and mario's b.airs were the same. I believe i said something along the lines that they serve the same purpose very similarly(?). If i could reiterate the point...for the situations where you most use the b.air, its moreso common that it won't matter.
When you're hanging on a ledge, and leg go *b.air* intercept their recovery (possibly using invinicibility frames), both mario and doc will succeed in a successful edgeguard. THIS is a common b.air edgeguard use.

I believe what you're talking about is a money-shot. Assuming you're oponent is recovering correctly...it should rarely happen. Yea...for those uncommon situations, doc's b.air is much better...but marth, especially, should be almost entirely immune to doc's b.air. If your cousin's doc is edgeguarding w/ that b.air, you should f.air and outrange him when he does that and mix up your recovery more. I play a very good marth often, and he has no problem swiping me away (unless i'm b.airing from an edgehog, in which case i'm invincible and its close enough so i can edgehog immediately again, whereas mario could do the same)
Peach should avoid nearly every b.air edgeguard because she should always recover above that.
Yeah, doc's b.air is better...but my point is, the situations (where it is Much better) are few and far between against a skilled oponent.


I'm sorry I worded things mean, but your agrue your points with really wierd logic. You said i ignored your points??....your "points" consisted of...
"my cousin", "level 1 bowser", "i tried it on the sandbag."
It just really looks bad, no offense.
For the record, many attacks' trajectory distances increase indepedently from one other, based on damage/weight/fallspeed.
One move that is stronger than another, MAY BE WEAKER at a higher damage instead. You said you did homerun contest, and thats basic homerun 101.
At 0% Ganon's homerun swing sends the sandbag further than his reverse warlockpunch. But at higher damages, his reverse warlock punch sends it further than his homerun bat.

At KO percentages, mario's f.smash is alot more devastating than doc's d.smash, additionally the point that during upair chains, oponents will be DIing away...plus oponents will usually be slightly more in the air for mario's f.smash, than doc's d.smash. Its not so easy as to explain it by means of 0% w/out DI. There are so many other factors to take into play. "testing" things out proves nothing, its what happens in the real match, as i've now explained into the nity-grity of both their b.airs and upair finishers i hope it makes more sense now. I'm sorry, i guess i should have gotten this hardcore into explaining my argument from the beginning.

I don't do "honor" MMs. They don't settle any rivalries. If i beat you, you would only be more sore towards me, and the chance i'd lose, i'm sure you'd proclaim to the world you beat me...so that i obviously suck and you're awesome. I would agree to MM under the terms of no hard feelings, but that not only seem unlikely..but impossible since we may never play.
I don't doubt your skill...in fact i have no idea how good you are, and i don't underestimate anyone, ever. I just think you're arguments are weak, since you're basing it off your cousin and computer tests. But hey...thats how Mew2King started off, so you might be better than me, who knows.

 

[Dreadlord Santa]

Eff it. I started writing another post trying to explain myself, but there's really no point. Nobody cares enough to read my posts because they don't know who the hell I am, and you don't care because you don't like my reasoning. I'm so absolutely sick and tired of trying to discuss anything on these boards. I can sit here, give examples of stuff, give concrete evidence of my points, but people counter it with abstract ideas like, "trajectory distances increase independently from one another, based on damage/weight/fallspeed." There's no room for experimentation left now, everyone just accepts stuff as being true, and there's no way to experiment with it, but it doesn't matter, because it's true as far as people are concerned. I wanted to try and break free of this mentality that what the at least moderately famous people say is always right, but that's obviously impossible. There's just no room left in this community for discussion amongst people that haven't been attending tournaments semi-regularly for several years, so this is going to be my official last post on these boards ever, aside from possibly the occasional "I intend to attend this." And of course, I go out not with a bang, but a whimper, as nobody cares about the loss of yet another tourney scrub, who depends only on his logic to create arguments for what he believes to be true.

 

[ye25]

ooo, paragraph battles.

 

[eighteenspikes]

lol dreadlord where are you from? If you're ever in the midwest I'll mm you, if for nothing more than to get some insight on these differences between Doc and Mario

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i thought everyone knew this already but was covering it up for no reason to trick the scrubs

 

[sk8tinGam0r]

I think docs really dependent on match ups or just the player. playin with a fellow well known florida player i do better against his falco over his luigi. i dont know why but luigi's wavedash is completly broken and i can only avoid it with f-tilt but he manages to learn that and punish me for it. he 3 or jv 4 stocks me but when he uses falco he gets lucky if he 2 stocks me.

 

[ye25]

Wait what was this thread about again?

 

[DaBRÜM]

Wait what was this thread about again?

Exactly...

 

[ye25]

Exactly, was it like mario vs. doc or something? I remember something about the disease typhus or something.

 

[Bullet Bill]

you have it backwards, sir.
doc doesn't win tournament because he's rare...
Doc is rare because he doesn't win tournaments.
The reason there are 1,000 foxes is because this game has been out forever, and people now realize who's good. People aren't dumb: What is good, becomes popular.

I play doc because thats who i chose before the tiers existed, and i have pride in staying with who i have the most fun with. Maybe winning tournaments isn't the most important thing to every smasher...I rather play doc, even at the cost of maybe not making it quite as far.
I apologize for being rude...but what little life this thread had to begin with, it didn't help you brought in the argument "doc and tournaments" when its clearly "mario vs. doc."

It works both ways Cyphus. But you just can't make sweeping statements like that. No johns. If you play well enough with any character then you have a chance at winning a tournament. I've seen videos of Fumi's Yoshi beating Bombsoldiers falco. The reason why? He's a very good player. I've seen Taj's mewtwo beat forwards falco. No johns btw because I just know that people will jump in to forwards defense. But mewtwo is really low tier. Doesn't matter though cos Taj is a very good mewtwo player. so basically, no johns cyphus. Pick a different character if your that pesimistic. Falco perhapps? But wait!!!!! Marth counters Falco!!!!! I suppose that you can't win a tournament with falco only as well

 

[Cyphus]

woops...double post

 

[Cyphus]

those are exceptions...not the rules. I'm talking about tournaments, not single matches.
"But you just can't make sweeping statements like that"
"If you play well enough with any character then you have a chance at winning a tournament."
I personally think thats a much more sweeping statement. The thing is, for my argument, i can base it off tournament results over 5 years. Everyone else is taking a leap of faith.
so first you say doc doesn't win tournaments because he's rare...then i give you a better argument..so now you say "It works both ways, Cyphus" I think i'm making progress now.

Sure Fumi beat BombSoldier....and Taj beat Forward..but that doesn't mean they'll be able to win a tournament where its pro after pro after pro...
Anyone ever heard of my crew mate Lee? He beat Taj's mewtwo twice using fox. If some random guy like Lee can take out taj's mewtwo...than maybe Mewtwo is just too situational a character to win touraments...if there are specific conditions that hurt mewtwo's flaws enough to lose. (like a campy fox who occasionally upsmashes) Maybe thats why Taj uses marth/fox in matches that count instead.
Fumi beat BombSoldier...Maybe bombsoldier doesn't know how to fight yoshi, and someone else in the tournament, fumi will face, will.
We have very few cases of low tiers getting very far in tournaments (Bum, Luigi-KaMaster, etc)...but eventually they all lose to a proffesional high tier user. It speaks for itself. You can only get so lucky in a tournament so far.

I'm not being pessimistic. I'm being realistic. Anyone just has to PROVE me wrong by winning a major tournament with a low-tier. Until then, there really is no empirical argument for it. I'm a doc player and i don't plan on "changing characters" because i enjoy melee the most when i'm doc. But anyway...i lost faith in the doc forum. People occasionally try to make real topics, but the community itself is just a sad place of off-topic discussion, poor sarcasm, and "lol who's the better/best doc?"
If anything, i have respect for DreadlordSanta for at least being on topic and presenting an argument. And the thread about SmashMac should be Closed. I'll see what i can do...i said it once 2 years ago, and i'll say it again. RIP doc forum

 

[DaBRÜM]

those are exceptions...not the rules. I'm talking about tournaments, not single matches.
"But you just can't make sweeping statements like that"
"If you play well enough with any character then you have a chance at winning a tournament."
I personally think thats a much more sweeping statement. The thing is, for my argument, i can base it off tournament results over 5 years. Everyone else is taking a leap of faith.
so first you say doc doesn't win tournaments because he's rare...then i give you a better argument..so now you say "It works both ways, Cyphus" I think i'm making progress now.

Sure Fumi beat BombSoldier....and Taj beat Forward..but that doesn't mean they'll be able to win a tournament where its pro after pro after pro...
Anyone ever heard of my crew mate Lee? He beat Taj's mewtwo twice using fox. If some random guy like Lee can take out taj's mewtwo...than maybe Mewtwo is just too situational a character to win touraments...if there are specific conditions that hurt mewtwo's flaws enough to lose. (like a campy fox who occasionally upsmashes) Maybe thats why Taj uses marth/fox in matches that count instead.
Fumi beat BombSoldier...Maybe bombsoldier doesn't know how to fight yoshi, and someone else in the tournament, fumi will face, will.
We have very few cases of low tiers getting very far in tournaments (Bum, Luigi-KaMaster, etc)...but eventually they all lose to a proffesional high tier user. It speaks for itself. You can only get so lucky in a tournament so far.

I'm not being pessimistic. I'm being realistic. Anyone just has to PROVE me wrong by winning a major tournament with a low-tier. Until then, there really is no empirical argument for it. I'm a doc player and i don't plan on "changing characters" because i enjoy melee the most when i'm doc. But anyway...i lost faith in the doc forum. People occasionally try to make real topics, but the community itself is just a sad place of off-topic discussion, poor sarcasm, and "lol who's the better/best doc?"
If anything, i have respect for DreadlordSanta for at least being on topic and presenting an argument. And the thread about SmashMac should be Closed. I'll see what i can do...i said it once 2 years ago, and i'll say it again. RIP doc forum

Respect. Anyway i agree, many people are saying "Oh don't say you can't win a tournament with doc, it is really becasue you aren't good enough." YES, i know but if i k=honestly want to win a tournament when i know i am not better then the person ahead of me, is it easier to play a shiek vs marth then a doc vs marth, i think my chances are better if i oplay shiek, even though i am a fairly scrubby shiek and a much better doc...


EDIT: Sorry for quoting the whole thing...

 

[Gea]

Guh... Cyphus Mario's standings in tournies have been just as low as Docs. So why does it even matter at all?

 

[Bullet Bill]

those are exceptions...not the rules. I'm talking about tournaments, not single matches.
"But you just can't make sweeping statements like that"
"If you play well enough with any character then you have a chance at winning a tournament."
I personally think thats a much more sweeping statement. The thing is, for my argument, i can base it off tournament results over 5 years. Everyone else is taking a leap of faith.
so first you say doc doesn't win tournaments because he's rare...then i give you a better argument..so now you say "It works both ways, Cyphus" I think i'm making progress now.

Sure Fumi beat BombSoldier....and Taj beat Forward..but that doesn't mean they'll be able to win a tournament where its pro after pro after pro...
Anyone ever heard of my crew mate Lee? He beat Taj's mewtwo twice using fox. If some random guy like Lee can take out taj's mewtwo...than maybe Mewtwo is just too situational a character to win touraments...if there are specific conditions that hurt mewtwo's flaws enough to lose. (like a campy fox who occasionally upsmashes) Maybe thats why Taj uses marth/fox in matches that count instead.
Fumi beat BombSoldier...Maybe bombsoldier doesn't know how to fight yoshi, and someone else in the tournament, fumi will face, will.
We have very few cases of low tiers getting very far in tournaments (Bum, Luigi-KaMaster, etc)...but eventually they all lose to a proffesional high tier user. It speaks for itself. You can only get so lucky in a tournament so far.

I'm not being pessimistic. I'm being realistic. Anyone just has to PROVE me wrong by winning a major tournament with a low-tier. Until then, there really is no empirical argument for it. I'm a doc player and i don't plan on "changing characters" because i enjoy melee the most when i'm doc. But anyway...i lost faith in the doc forum. People occasionally try to make real topics, but the community itself is just a sad place of off-topic discussion, poor sarcasm, and "lol who's the better/best doc?"
If anything, i have respect for DreadlordSanta for at least being on topic and presenting an argument. And the thread about SmashMac should be Closed. I'll see what i can do...i said it once 2 years ago, and i'll say it again. RIP doc forum

I couldn't care less about going off topic Cyphus because it ticks me off when people say I can't win a tournament because of the character that I choose .

 

[Galt]

People keep thinking that, if they're good enough, they can win with the Doc. That's just not the case. The Doc has too many obvious flaws to be able to beat a really good Fox, or even a Sheik. He relies on your opponent making mistakes and being predictable, and, assuming perfect playing were possible for Doc, it would also be possible for these other characters, and they have obvious advantages. The Doc has a very short attack/grab range, his attacks are relatively laggy, he's floaty, his recovery range is short/predictable, his pills don't actually do much for him against a player who just moves out of the way and camps. These are undeniable weaknesses, which create an immediate imbalance between two players of theoretically equal skill.

Think carefully: how many tricks have been discovered with the Doc in the last 2-3 years? Now look at Fox. His game continues to evolve, in response to every tactic from every other character. I'll tell you my approach for fighting the Doc with Sheik, my main (Doc is my secondary/double-main). Camp him with needles, make him come to me, don't bother trying to avoid his pills because there's nothing he can do about it, make him approach at all times. When he comes in, I'm going to f-tilt him, which out-ranges his options. And the f-tilt leads into an automatic f-air, which generally puts him off the stage, which is where he is at his greatest disadvantage. Just like that, I have an automatic combo which takes advantage of his weakness. And Doc has nothing of the sort on Sheik; all his strategies would implicitly involve "hope jab > d-smash connects" or "hope the spacing is bad so I can shield-grab."

All characters are not created equal. They do not all have the same opportunities. If you can be that good, so can someone else with a better character. That's just the way competition works.

 

[eighteenspikes]

Galt, don't make such general statements about matchups, especially if you think Doc's only viable approaches are jab to dsmash or shield grab.

At this point, I'm aware of how most matchups work, and it's my choice to use Doc in every single game. Having said that, I'd like to assert that everyone who has ever beaten me soundly has done so because they are flat out better than me at the game in general, not because of the matchup. You are basically saying that any sheik can beat every doc. This is so, so untrue.

 

[Matador]

This is kinda sad. Forgive me if I find it difficult to believe that if you don't use a high tier, you cannot win a major tournament. I prolly would believe this if it weren't for Chudat and his ICs. He's the ONLY person who can use the ICs and place as high as he does, why couldn't it be some random guy using Doc? Doc and Mario have so much raw potential, it's scary. All it takes is one person to place first, and everyone's perception would change. True, it hasn't been done yet, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[Bob Money]

theres nothing wrong with doctor mario hes perfect.

 

[mog87]

I just like to point out that fumi beat a falco named koma, that is actually not bombsoldier.

 

[Galt]

On the contrary, I'm not saying Doc will always lose to Sheik. I am, however, saying that he *should* always lose to a Sheik of a comparable skill level, and that it will be impossible for a Doc to ever get away from fighting such a Sheik. My own Sheik, my main, has lost to a very good Doc player, Smiles, in fact; you don't know that he plays the Doc, even though he's beaten Xelic's Peach in tournament, and even though he learned by fighting Caveman all the time because they're both from Crystal City, but trust me, he's good. He won because he's better than me, and because I had very little experience in the matchup. But I think it wouldn't go so well for him now, because I've played the reverse matchup so often myself, and know how to make it hard for the Doc. The Doc simply can't match Sheik's spacing, or edgeguarding, and he certainly can't compensate for them. I'm not saying jab > d-smash and shieldgrabbing are Doc's only appraoches; I'm saying he doesn't really *have* any viable approaches, at least in this matchup, being a largely defensive character who waits for the opponent to approach, for various reasons. I'm saying that the Doc requires his opponents to make mistakes, whereas characters like Sheik and Fox *force* their opponents to make mistakes.

I'm talking about really good players here, mind you, not average players who make lots of mistakes on both sides. In those matches, these sorts of things are far less certain. But those matches aren't upper-level tournament matches. I believe all these things, and yet I still play the Doc. I enjoy playing him. But I already know that, if I can't beat someone with my Sheik, I almost certainly can't beat him with my Doc.

 

[Bullet Bill]

Then you are a crap Doc player. You fail. Go pick Sheik instead and stop johning. Doc is more than capable of beating a good sheik

 

[Cyphus]

(1st off..thank you galt for sharing your perspective. Its good to know i'm not just the only one)

i really don't think u know what its like, bill.
Hoshino Kirby and Kentaross. Two really good japanese docs that had to fight each other in a tournament...except Hoshino kirby picked Sheik...
because thats how he won. He beat Kentaross (one of the best docs in the world) by switching to sheik)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Z3hnqeD4NU&mode=related&search= (this is their 1st match. he wins the 2nd match obviously as well..but this one just better demonstrates doc's certain helplessness situations versus a sheik)
If anything sheik counters doc, and he knew it..and kentaross's loss supports it.


You can't just say to me someone who can't beat sheik w/ doc is a crappy player. If anything, it gives the community a good hint at your lack of experience, beleiving such silly things. If not you're a pro doc playing pro sheiks...you REALLY don't have **** to talk about the matchup, especially if you're just basing it off two errors...living in the past when CJ peat Sheiks w/ his doc years ago, and basing it off your personal experience.

 

[ye25]

What happened to the good old days of having fun!

 

[Bullet Bill]

(1st off..thank you galt for sharing your perspective. Its good to know i'm not just the only one)

i really don't think u know what its like, bill.
Hoshino Kirby and Kentaross. Two really good japanese docs that had to fight each other in a tournament...except Hoshino kirby picked Sheik...
because thats how he won. He beat Kentaross (one of the best docs in the world) by switching to sheik)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Z3hnqeD4NU&mode=related&search= (this is their 1st match. he wins the 2nd match obviously as well..but this one just better demonstrates doc's certain helplessness situations versus a sheik)
If anything sheik counters doc, and he knew it..and kentaross's loss supports it.


You can't just say to me someone who can't beat sheik w/ doc is a crappy player. If anything, it gives the community a good hint at your lack of experience, beleiving such silly things. If not you're a pro doc playing pro sheiks...you REALLY don't have **** to talk about the matchup, especially if you're just basing it off two errors...living in the past when CJ peat Sheiks w/ his doc years ago, and basing it off your personal experience.

Cyphus, having a lot of experience is no excuse for arrogance. All I'm saying is no johns. Yes, Sheik is a pretty hard matchup but it's not unwinnable. Otherwise there'd be no point in even playing.

 

[ye25]

yea, top tier and character advantage doesnt mean you will lose everytime if u play someone ur level.

 

[Bob Money]

is it possible for any char to beat any char ?
yes it is.
theres nothing to argue.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

It is possible? yes

Likely? No.

 

[Velox]

Nice posts Cyphus, I like you're logic.


Funny how Bullet Bill is just running around pushing the whole no johns thing which couldn't be more off topic. Hilariously annoying.

 

[Khaine]

It is possible? yes

Likely? No.

agreed. as far as i'm concerned thats all there is to it. the odds of someone playing solid Doc throughout a tournement and winning are incredibly, incredibly slim. the chance is still there, its just incredibly minute.

as far as mario goes [tournement wise] its essentially exactly the same. possible, but incredibly unlikely.

going back to the original subject of doc vs mario:

in my opinion, a good mario is far more visually impressive than a good Doc. Mario requires you to be able to play faster, because he is faster. Mario has a little less lag on arials, and just moves more, period. which suits me just fine personally, because i just keep moving. its rare i'm still, even for a second.

Both Doc and Mario are simplistic characters in comparison to many others, but of the two, i believe Doc to be the simpler one. that's not necessarily a bad thing. so he may lack some of the tricky-combo-ey potential that mario has, but he more things that he can just, hit you with. for example, his F smash will always hit for its full knockback and percentile damage. and his Dsmash is just better than Mario's.

as for Mario. sure, being tricky and comboey and what have you sounds better than being simple, and often it is. but often, lacking simple two-hit-kill-combos at high percent is a pain in the ***. (i.e Doc's D/U throw to Fair). not that mario doesnt have any simple combos, he has things like Dthow-Dtilt-Fsmash on spacies, etc. but he just has less hard hitting moves, which sometimes serves to hinder getting the kill.

tournement wise though, as mentioned, both stand about the same chance of winning a decent tournement. and that chance is not a good one. so if you're playing in that tournement, take a good alt, even its only to play those matchup's you're terrified of.

i'd rather play my Doc or Mario against spacies, for example [[in most situations at least]], but i'd play my shiek against almost anything else in a tournement.

-x-

 

[Velocity]

sheik = docs worst match
she does what he does better

Edit: just read some posts

Agrees with any charcter being capable of beating another character.

 

[Bullet Bill]

Nice posts Cyphus, I like you're logic.


Funny how Bullet Bill is just running around pushing the whole no johns thing which couldn't be more off topic. Hilariously annoying.

lol. *** kisser. Logic from cyphus? this is the guy that wrote a great guide for Doc but then says you will never win a tournament with Doc. Kinda stupid really. In fact, I've just thought of a better guide.

Guide to playing DrMario by bullet bill

pick another character

 

[Bullet Bill]

is it possible for any char to beat any char ?
yes it is.
theres nothing to argue.

Exactly_____

 

[Velox]

lol. *** kisser.

If you knew anything about me you'd know that I could really care less about almost anyone in the smash community.


However... Cyphus, you and Lee should come down to a Texas touranment sometime. That'd be lots of fun. Sethlon said you guys were pretty cool, and you're obviously good.

 

[Cyphus]

**Velox. i'd love to...but i think the LA smash scene is going to retire traveling after this last tournament we're hosting here in BatonRouge. Its called "LAST" and its regionally based, since we're getting great players from MS, FL, TN, etc. (Chad, Iori, Spaceballs, RAM, etc) Its this weekend..i figure a lil late to invite anyone from TX..but eh. Its going to be a blast.

*hopeflully my last post here*
i think we should all just ignore bill until he stops acting like a n00b.
its been a slight communication error. First off...this thread was doc vs mario and i ****ing said i'm arguing it from the viewpoint of a mario-extremist for entertainment purposes...and yet somehow u not only manage to make an argument on something completely irrelevant, but do so with personal attacks on people when they disagree.
if you can't win with doc, you suck'
'if somebody agrees with cyphus, they're obviously kissing ***'
Just because i made a guide years ago, doesn't mean its in vain if doc can't compete at a proffesional tournament level. First off..if any character can beat any character....Try beating Marth with Bowser. (i watched Gimpyfish lose to the marth of my crew, John(completley unknown to the smash community) at FCD. Tell bottom tier users every matchup is possible. Character's ****ing matter. Its why Proffesional players counter-pick. Maybe they know the game better.
...take it to next level, your odds just keep getting lower, because the more skill involved, the greater the tiers become. Thats UNAGUABLE. What your *****ing about is "no matter how small it is, doc still has a chance" which is understandable from a humanistic point of view, but theres no reason to hold onto such faiths when its never happened and probably never will at a proffesional level.
As long as a doc does "good" and gets "high" in a tournament...i'm very impressed and have mad respect for the few doc-heroes that are capable of that....THAT should be enough for us.

 

[BigRick]

I agree with Cyphus, you must be dumb if you can think that you can win with Low-Mid tiers.

Only Top/High tiers can win tournaments.



Skill > Tiers... this is very true.

However, only 0,5% of players have the skill.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

if you want to be good.... top tier pl0x.

 

[NES n00b]

You forgot to add me as one of the great MS players. >.>

Anyways, thinking that Doc can win a big tourney is silly. The closest that one could get is possiblay a Doc player can be the best in his region or state (depends which state or region but you get the idea).

 

[Matador]

How is it silly? cuz it's never happened?

 

[NES n00b]

How is it silly? cuz it's never happened?

That's part of the reason. Yes. Also, there is a very low probability that someone would be so much better than everybody to be able to defeat them all with Doc and his disadvantages. People who tend to win tournies tend to be the ones who have the mindset to win no matter what which means using top tiers and counterpicking so that is another factor.

I am not saying that a Doc can't win a good size tourney. Just not MLG and other equivalents.