Responsible Utilization of Narcotics

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I'll start out by saying this: I am an avid pot user. I am not an addict. I am capable of controlling my use of the drug and have gone over two months without using it.

That's not to say that there are not people who can become addicted to marijuana. I personally know some people who have become dependent on the drug and smoke once every two or three days. However, it must be known that marijuana is NOT physically addictive, unlike other drugs such as caffeine, nicotine, or heroine. Yet heroine, a physically HARMFUL AND ADDICTIVE drug, and marijuana are banned while caffeine and nicotine are not only legal, but heavily marketed and used everyday by hundreds of millions of people around the world.

Does anybody see the issue here? Of course I'm not advocating for the legalization of heroine, but I am advocating for government allowance of personal responsibility.

I am of the staunch belief that people should be allowed to determine what is right for themselves. Drugs such as marijuana, ecstasy, etc. should all be legalized and left to the people how to use or misuse them.

Keep in mind that ecstasy and marijuana are NOT physically addictive, only emotionally. But one could say the same of many things. Chocolate is emotionally addictive (hence, fat women) and so are cheeseburgers. But I like cheeseburgers and it shouldn't be illegal. We are not kids. We are adults who should be able to make decisions for ourselves.

Yet this one plant, marijuana, which I shouldn't even need to tell you all the benefits of, is illegal.

Keep in mind, this is not a debate over whether or a certain drug should be legalized (although it certainly will turn it into such a debate), but a discussion of whether the government should allow people to have personal responsibility.

 

[asianaussie]

The fact that extreme addiction is possible is already a concern. While all of your points are valid, they are only valid for your particular population: that is to say, responsible adults. Keep that in mind.

From what I know as a biology student, marijuana has no distinctive stimulant or depressant properties, and is associated with significant mood changes born from reduction of certain neural functions. Regular marijuana use has statistical association and tentative correlation with psychosis and depression, so even if you're an art student getting his inspiration from smoking it, you run the chance of having problems at some point. It is not directly implicated as the cause for such occurances, but there is a statistically significant correlation.

Even ignoring that, what are you proposing? Giving people personal responsibility for all drugs? That is a foolhardy decision purely based on the potential mishaps that it can (and almost definitely will) cause.

Can you specify your argument and maybe put out some discussion points? I'll respond to each point in-depth if you do.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

That is precisely what I am arguing for.

With the exception of certain extreme addictive and so-called "hard" drugs (cocaine and heroine), I propose full legalization of use of such substances.

My argument is that since these drugs are not addictive and can be used responsibly, there is no reason they should be illegal.

 

[ballin4life]

Well, I would like to open by saying:

LOL "once every two or three days".



Anyway, drugs should be legalized because drug use is a victimless crime. If I want to put heroin in my body, who are you to tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to?

That also ignores the MASSIVE cost of Drug prohibition. Those are resources that are wasted finding people that are hurting no one but themselves. Not to mention that it is impossible to truly prevent people from obtaining drugs. It just creates black markets and violence. If you're involved in a drug deal, you have to resort to violence over any dispute because you cannot call the police.

I'll end with a few questions:

1) If Heroin were legalized, would you start doing heroin? If yes, is it fear of punishment that keeps you from doing it now?

2) If you think drugs should be banned, then what about alcohol? What about cigarettes? What about fast food? What about driving? All of these are pretty clearly bad for your health.

 

[ballin4life]

bump for more good threads on the first page

 

[HaiWayne]

There is a difference between legalization and decriminalization. I dont think legalization of heroin or other extremely harmful drugs is a good idea. It is not just a personal health issue but a public one as well, as those addicted will not become a productive citizen, and may turn into criminals to obtain drugs illegally if they cannot afford the commercial price. What I favor is decriminalization, so instead of putting drug addicts in jail, treat their sickness instead. Give them small amounts of crack if that helps them recover from withdrawal, but at the same time encourage them to quit through therapy. The exact same thing I just described has been tested out and worked in a foreign country (I think its Switzerland.. not sure)

 

[ballin4life]

There is a difference between legalization and decriminalization. I dont think legalization of heroin or other extremely harmful drugs is a good idea. It is not just a personal health issue but a public one as well, as those addicted will not become a productive citizen, and may turn into criminals to obtain drugs illegally if they cannot afford the commercial price.

This is much, much more likely to happen when drugs are illegal. The fact that drugs are illegal raises prices (so it's harder to get the money to support your habit) and puts the distribution of drugs in the hands of criminals (so you are already dealing with criminals). Add in the fact that people cannot call the police over drug disputes, and you see that having illegal drugs vastly increases crime.

What I favor is decriminalization, so instead of putting drug addicts in jail, treat their sickness instead. Give them small amounts of crack if that helps them recover from withdrawal, but at the same time encourage them to quit through therapy. The exact same thing I just described has been tested out and worked in a foreign country (I think its Switzerland.. not sure)

Treating their sickness? That's all fine and good, but what if they don't want to be treated?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Two words: "nanny society". In fact, a ****ty, careless nanny who only cares if we do something that's bad for us if we enjoy it. Seriously, look at this ****:
-No to public health care (too expensive)
-yes to costly wars
-yes to costly prohibitions

...Pretty ****ed, eh?

I think very little needs to be said beyond the fact that according to the social contract, there is nothing wrong with recreational drug usage. But just for the hell of it, here's a little anecdote.

On the island where my father lives, almost every one of my adult friends is a regular pot smoker, ranging from once or twice a week to a couple of times a day. Not a single one of them is anything less than a perfectly well-adjusted, successful individual. Stonemason. Carpenter. Captain. Best drummer in the state. Professional photographer. They live healthy lives with healthy relationships to their peers and reality, with good jobs-weed is a social thing for them. In fact, tbh, the only maladjusted people I've met on the island are the rednecks who hate weed and "those damn hippies" who smoke it. By ending the prohibition of weed, you remove literally every problem with it-from the criminal nature of its dealings (which encourages gangs and violence) to the chance of it being cut with something volatile/you getting ripped off, to the annoying weed culture-I mean come on, you really think these guys are going to continue to be such childish pricks about it after they "legalize it"? I seriously doubt it...

As for other drugs... LSD, Ecstasy, and most other hallucinogens are not physically addictive and not explicitly harmful-as long as you can make your normal life cooperate with your recreational drug use, it can work (i.e. no going on acid trips when you have to work later) without any harm whatsoever to society.

Addictive drugs, such as crack, heroin, and cocain should remain prohibited. Black market or not, these drugs pose a serious threat to society as a whole due to their incredibly addictive nature. Criminalized? The dealing thereof, sure. Possession should be punished by confiscation and a trip to rehab, so that people know that they won't land in jail for coming out (possibly the most dangerous thing-you simply cannot come out and be honest about your drug use, even if it's killing you)... But its import and dealership should be banned simply because these drugs can lead to seriously crippling addictions and can have a very negative impact on society.

 

[ballin4life]

BPC - do you think that people will suddenly start doing crack just because it's legal? Part of the problem is that it is illegal, which puts people in a criminal underworld when they try to get drugs.

Also what is your opinion of alcohol? That is extremely addictive for many people as well. How do you determine which should be legal and which shouldn't? And what right do you have to tell me that I can't do something just because it is addictive?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC - do you think that people will suddenly start doing crack just because it's legal? Part of the problem is that it is illegal, which puts people in a criminal underworld when they try to get drugs.

I certainly think that this will be the case with some drugs. For all drugs... eh, ionno. Maybe.

Also what is your opinion of alcohol? That is extremely addictive for many people as well. How do you determine which should be legal and which shouldn't? And what right do you have to tell me that I can't do something just because it is addictive?

Alcohol has been proven to work. It's only occasionally addictive, and there should be more recourse for not only alcoholics, but the families of alcoholics, to get them counceling.

 

[Savon]

BPC - do you think that people will suddenly start doing crack just because it's legal? Part of the problem is that it is illegal, which puts people in a criminal underworld when they try to get drugs.

Also what is your opinion of alcohol? That is extremely addictive for many people as well. How do you determine which should be legal and which shouldn't? And what right do you have to tell me that I can't do something just because it is addictive?

I depends heavily on what the drug is. One of the main reasons our society bans drugs is because of the negative impact that they have on society. I do not think weed should be illegal because it causes no real harm to others, but drugs such as crack and heroin are different. The degree of the addiction must be taken into consideration. An addiction such as caffeine will not be nearly as dangerous as an addiction to crack cocaine. Drug addicts are a burden on our society. Regardless of their legal status they cause crime, ruin peoples lives personally and financially, and hurts those close to the addict. You can drink alcohol, smoke weed, and drink caffeinated drinks and still live a functional life. Do you honestly think you can live a normal productive life using meth and crack cocaine?

 

[ballin4life]

Drug addicts don't cause crime unless the drugs are illegal. Not too many people are going around robbing people to get money for alcohol.

There are plenty of people who can't live productive lives while drinking alcohol (or smoking weed lol).

The thing is, who are YOU to say what is a productive life for everyone? How about letting ME choose what I want to do with my life?

Also, remember compliance costs. The government spends TONS of money on the War on Drugs, and it obviously doesn't work very well.

 

[Savon]

First of all can we try to avoid the whole "who are YOU" idea. Who are WE to say anything? Who am I to make my own decisions? Who are YOU to eat this food? Who is SHE to want that job?

Anyways the point is that the government outlaws such drugs to protect the common good.

Do you honestly think that allowing crack to run rampant would be a good thing for communities? I have seen personally what drug abuse can do to a person, and once you see first hand how it changes people, destroys their lives, and makes them dangerous, you begin to understand why said hard drugs are illegal.

The spreading of disease is just one example.

 

[ballin4life]

Yes, legalizing drugs would be a good thing for communities. It would massively reduce crime and government expenditures. It would free up places in the prison system (you know that sending drug users to prison only allows them to become real criminals - since suddenly that's who they are around all day).

Drug use harms people in large part because of its legal status. Prices would be lower, drugs would be cleaner and purer, there would be fewer overdoses, etc.

Not to mention, if you want to ban drugs because they are bad for you, to be consistent you would have to ban alcohol, fast food, and driving, since all of these lead to FAR more deaths than use of illegal drugs. Yet, we still give people the opportunity to do these things, because it is their choice to do what they want with their lives.

You realize that illegal drugs are running rampant right now? Yet, you think that legalizing them is suddenly going to make everyone start doing crack? (actually crack would become rarer since cocaine would be cheaper and crack is just cocaine mixed with chemicals to make it cheap - so criminalization is the source of the crack epidemic) Criminalization doesn't work. I could go do these drugs if I wanted to anyway.

In fact, the only people that are helped by criminalization of drugs are the drug dealers and drug gangs. They are making tons of money selling drugs because they can charge outrageous prices due to the illegality of drugs.

Um, and yes, who are WE to decide things for EVERYONE ELSE? Who am I to eat this food? I am me and eating food is my own decision about what to do with my life and my body. So I don't understand what you are trying to say here. People should be free to make their own choices.


So let's summarize here. Drug prohibition doesn't work to keep people from doing drugs, makes a lot of money for drug gangs, turns people into criminals, makes the drugs themselves more dangerous and more expensive, costs TONS of money, and is a violation of one's basic freedom to make one's own choices.

edit: Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Results for an example of a country that liberalized drug laws.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Drug addicts don't cause crime unless the drugs are illegal. Not too many people are going around robbing people to get money for alcohol.

Theft. If you can't pay to keep your crack addiction satisfied, then you need to think of something.

 

[ballin4life]

Theft. If you can't pay to keep your crack addiction satisfied, then you need to think of something.

I have addressed this multiple times ... in fact the very thing you quoted was an attempt to address it.

How many people go around stealing to support their alcohol addiction? The answer is not too many, because alcohol is not that expensive. I mean, homeless alcohol addicts can apparently make enough money panhandling to afford some plastic bottle vodka.

But illegal drugs are expensive because they are illegal. This makes the "stealing for your addiction" problem much worse, since you have to come up with a LOT more money.



Basically, your arguments all come down to some idea of "protecting people from themselves" which is inherently paternalistic. You don't know what other people's preferences are. I can argue that we should ban alcohol, fast food, and driving in order to protect people from themselves, because all of these things are extremely harmful to people's health. But we don't because it's YOUR CHOICE to drink alcohol, eat fast food, or drive.

Additionally, your method of "protecting people from themselves" DOESN'T EVEN WORK. People still get drugs all the time, but they have to pay much higher prices for them, and that money goes into the hands of violent criminals.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

It's a self consciousness consuming it or not, we all know drugs can harm us, but if they're ilegal the chances that adicts will try to do whatever it takes to get the money to satisfy their adictions, are higher that what they'd be if drugs were legal, it's not a fact, but a hypothesis, that possibility may take place.

As ballin said, that's one of the differeces between alcoholism and drug adicts, the amount of money needed to feed the adiction, which have different effects on the cons.

Moreover if it's legal it'd also increas the drug consumers in a considerable way, since it'd be easier to get drugs.
Making it legal is not a good option, there should be a good controll on its delivering, here's where the authority's power should be implemented, since medicine are also drugs.

In conclusion: Drugs shouldn't be legal, But there should be a good authority's sistem.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

It's a self consciousness consuming it or not, we all know drugs can harm us, but if they're ilegal the chances that adicts will try to do whatever it takes to get the money to satisfy their adictions, are higher that what they'd be if drugs were legal, it's not a fact, but a hypothesis, that possibility may take place.

As ballin said, that's one of the differeces between alcoholism and drug adicts, the amount of money needed to feed the adiction, which have different effects on the cons.

Moreover if it's legal it'd also increas the drug consumers in a considerable way, since it'd be easier to get drugs.
Making it legal is not a good option, there should be a good controll on its delivering, here's where the authority's power should be implemented, since medicine are also drugs.

In conclusion: Drugs shouldn't be legal, But there should be a good authority's sistem.

1. How do drugs harm us? Unlike so-called hard drugs like heroine and cocaine, soft drugs such as marijuana and ecstasy have not been shown to produce any harmful long-term side effects.

2. Drugs are only expensive because they're illegal. The cost of smuggling drugs across borders and between countless middlemen makes prices skyrocket. If drugs were legal, they would not be so expensive.

3. What's wrong with making drugs more accessible? Not only that, but there is no evidence that legalizing drugs increases the number of people who use it. Case in point, the Netherlands has marijuana fully legalized, yet only 5% of people used in the past year.

Your post was written like a third grader's letter to D.A.R.E. Please put more effort into future posts.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

I see no point in your post besides that telling me to make a better post in the future, which I appreciate.

But I think that the part "Can harm us" in my previous post, gives a sence of posibility, not stablishing a fact.

inb4, that's not a fact, but possibly some considerable consequences.

 

[Grandeza]

But I think that the part "Can harm us" in my previous post, gives a sence of posibility, not stablishing a fact.

You can't just say that there may be consequences. You have to tell us some possible consequences that will come with legalization and why they will occur. Saying that there is potential for harm without any any elaboration does nothing to further the discussion. It seems pretty clear to me that the legalization of drugs will have very few, if any, negatives and the government shouldn't be telling us what we can or can't do with our body in the first place. I guess I have a sort of a live and let live mentality.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

Marijuana has fewer side effects than cigarettes (due the lack of tar and other harmful chemicals) and is not addictive. Ecstasy has no long-term side effects and is not addictive.

My point is that soft drugs are NOT harmful to people.

I really don't believe you missed the point of my post. I even listed them out for you 1, 2, and 3, yet you only see the point I made which doesn't have a number?

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Oh well, sorry about that.

But:

Marijuana has fewer side effects than cigarettes

Aren't cigarettes (legal product) consumer bigger in # than marijuana consumers (ilegal product)?

Also:
@Grandeza

2. Drugs are only expensive because they're illegal.

This looks like an assumption, which is what I kind of did at some point.

 

[Grandeza]

The "Drugs are expensive because they're illegal" thing makes perfect sense. If it were legal it could be produced more and safer to purchase, thus it wouldn't have the high price. If something is illegal, it's harder to access/there's less of it so the price is higher. It makes perfect sense that legalizing it would cause the price to drop.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Why? Because a debater says so?
There're some legal products with a really high price.

So, it seems like a hypothesis to me.

 

[Grandeza]

Why? Because a debater says so?
There're some legal products with a really high price.

So, it seems like a hypothesis to me.

No, using logic we can safely say that the price of drugs would go down if they were legalized. The fact that some legal things are expensive, doesn't mean much. Chances are, if they were illegal, they would then cost more. It would work similarly to how prohibition worked. When alcohol was illegalized, the prices went up for the following reasons:

"First, Prohibition increases supply costs, as these must include the cost of evading detection and the potential cost of punishment."

Saying drug price would go down isn't something picked out of thin air. It makes sense and happened before with prohibition.

 

[ballin4life]

Legal = easier to supply = lower price. Pretty simple economics. Every time someone buys illegal drugs, they are paying for the smuggling, for the chance of the drug dealer getting caught, for the lack of competition, etc. Think about it: if the government outlawed tomatos, would the price of tomatos (now only available on the black market) be higher or lower?

Also there is no distinction between "soft" and "hard" drugs - I can decide personally what I want to put in my body.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

@ballin All rigth, I didn't dig as I should to assume that before, admit my mistake.

But now that I think about it, making them legal may decreas crime a little when it comes about big dealers.

 

[Grandeza]

3mmanu3lrc, I hope I don't offend you, but is English your first language?

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Grandeza No, it's not, and you don't offend me with that, Spanish is my first language, and maybe sometimes when making my posts, I have my country's laws in mind, maybe I have to focus a little more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

1. How do drugs harm us? Unlike so-called hard drugs like heroine and cocaine, soft drugs such as marijuana and ecstasy have not been shown to produce any harmful long-term side effects.

Also: there's a tentative (i.e. strong link, but not quite "proof") link between weed and Alzheimer's, that is that cannaboids can help prevent it. To be fair, the first thing that google popped up was an article attempting to disprove that, but I read small parts of it and it seemed a little questionable (mostly the part about how giving them 100-800x the typical dose of cannaboids wasn't calculated into the whole "losing their memories" part; if you do that much weed then of course your brain is gonna suffer...), but I don't know.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Yeah, well; I said Can harm us because that's relatively depending on the amount you consume, and how frequently you consume it.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

Eating cheeseburgers can harm us as well if ingested excessively, and unlike marijuana, they have been shown to lead to negative side effects like obesity and heart disease.

Should we ban cheeseburgers as well?

 

[rvkevin]

I wonder if you would also be supportive of banning dihydrogen monoxide, which has been the cause of untold deaths. More information concerning the more to ban this potentially lethal substance can be found here. Considering it "Can harm us...depending on the amount you consume," I think it would fit your criteria for making the consumption of it illegal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I wonder if you would also be supportive of banning dihydrogen monoxide, which has been the cause of untold deaths. More information concerning the more to ban this potentially lethal substance can be found here. Considering it "Can harm us...depending on the amount you consume," I think it would fit your criteria for making the consumption of it illegal.

That article is great, a must-read for everyone! Dihidrogen monoxide needs to go! What the article didn't mention however is that it's one of the most addictive substances ever! 99.9999% of all people who have tried it not only continued to use it, but did not quit until they died!

But yeah, Marijuana is dangerous to your health in obscenely high doses only. Like, the amount you would really have to work hard to get into your system at once.

 

[~Tac~]

Slightly surprised that this thread was revived. Anywho.

I wonder if you would also be supportive of banning dihydrogen monoxide, which has been the cause of untold deaths. More information concerning the more to ban this potentially lethal substance can be found here. Considering it "Can harm us...depending on the amount you consume," I think it would fit your criteria for making the consumption of it illegal.

Not simply targeting you, but this is branching off into what should be banned or not. I believe this is still on the argument of the premise that the government should leave punishment to surround personal responsibility.

From another, very simplistic standpoint, it can be in the same category as alcohol, caffeine, etc. It leads to people's actions causing deaths, crime, etc.; regardless, it's still marketed.

 

[3mmanu3lrc]

Eating cheeseburgers can harm us as well if ingested excessively, and unlike marijuana, they have been shown to lead to negative side effects like obesity and heart disease.

Should we ban cheeseburgers as well?

If you see, I'm not saying marijuana should be banned, I don't know why you're saying this.

Or, is it that you think it should be banned?

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

In conclusion: Drugs shouldn't be legal, But there should be a good authority's sistem.

lol

10char

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...is there a certain period after which we throw people out of the PG for being really, really bad?

 

[Xianglian]

I don't think that pot or any drug that has the potential to severely harm anyone should be legalized. Pot for example, is poison for your brain. This drug affects your motor skills, memory, and the ablity to even think straight. This drug affected my brother so deeply after only a week of trying it, he didn't even remember that he was beaten up by a group of gang members on his way home. Can you imagine what it was like when he walked through the door bloody and he couldn't tell me when or how he got that way?

I know I sound like a mother, I can't help that. But there is nothing responsible about drug use if it begins to intrude into your life. Hence the fact that these drugs are illegal. Now I know that the alcohol bit will come if I just leave it at that. I do believe that a drug such as Marijuana should be decriminalized but not legal. We do not need someone in jail for a couple grams of pot for 6 months with murderers and rapists. I know that in my state (New York) you can have a maximum of 16 or 17 pot plants and not be arrested for it. If you have more than 17 plants, you will be charged with drug possesion with the intent to sell.

Alcohol is legal because there isn't the stigma of it being taboo as it is with marijuana, that's just society. However, alcohol abuse is criminalized. Many laws have been passed in states and in the national government to make sure that alcohol abuse is not tolerated. Tobacco is heavily taxed and there is a national campaign against it. However, it is a fact that making drugs that have been legal for decades illegal, result in criminal activity, as history shows us.

An article about illegal tobacco trades: Here

 

[ballin4life]

I don't think that pot or any drug that has the potential to severely harm anyone should be legalized. Pot for example, is poison for your brain. This drug affects your motor skills, memory, and the ablity to even think straight.

No. Do some research before you say pot is poison for your brain. In fact, cannabis may actually stimulate brain cell growth (source: http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=528519 ).

Alcohol on the other hand does actually kill brain cells.

Although I will agree that someone under the influence of marijuana has his motor skills, thinking ability and memory affected, it probably has less of an effect on those than alcohol does.

This drug affected my brother so deeply after only a week of trying it, he didn't even remember that he was beaten up by a group of gang members on his way home. Can you imagine what it was like when he walked through the door bloody and he couldn't tell me when or how he got that way?

That is not a typical case at all and I question the veracity of this story. Now, excessive consumption of alcohol, a perfectly legal drug, would indeed prevent someone from remembering such an event. But marijuana is not known to cause memory loss of this magnitude - usually it's small things like forgetting where you left your keys or something. Even if this story is true, that's just one person's reaction and many people do enjoy it. Not to mention that it's not like illegality of the drug stopped your brother from DOING IT ANYWAY.

I know I sound like a mother, I can't help that. But there is nothing responsible about drug use if it begins to intrude into your life. Hence the fact that these drugs are illegal. Now I know that the alcohol bit will come if I just leave it at that. I do believe that a drug such as Marijuana should be decriminalized but not legal. We do not need someone in jail for a couple grams of pot for 6 months with murderers and rapists. I know that in my state (New York) you can have a maximum of 16 or 17 pot plants and not be arrested for it. If you have more than 17 plants, you will be charged with drug possesion with the intent to sell.

Your points about decriminalization are sound.

However, what is to be gained by making it illegal at all? People will still do it, and that's THEIR CHOICE. Some people enjoy it, just like some people enjoy alcohol, or fast food, or driving, or any other unhealthy activity. All that drug laws do is make a bunch of money for criminals and drive up prices for the users.

Alcohol is legal because there isn't the stigma of it being taboo as it is with marijuana, that's just society. However, alcohol abuse is criminalized. Many laws have been passed in states and in the national government to make sure that alcohol abuse is not tolerated. Tobacco is heavily taxed and there is a national campaign against it. However, it is a fact that making drugs that have been legal for decades illegal, result in criminal activity, as history shows us.

An article about illegal tobacco trades: Here

Alcohol abuse itself isn't criminalized as far as I know.

I don't see what your point is on the rest of this either.