Veril
Frame Savant
If we do make a change to the hitstun modifier, we have to do it asap otherwise we're basically just trashing 5.0 as a RC.
This is the most important question we must answer: should we lower hitstun to the point where it has a noticable impact on comboing. While it strikes me as a little ridiculous that we'd be doing this immediately after releasing 5.0, and a little disingenuous in regards to people who will be training, there are several moves that have ludicrous, massive followup windows. It is the most consistent criticism of B+ I've encountered.
I, as you know, oppose the idea of lowering hitstun. I firmly believe that people are not experienced enough with the newborn codeset of a game still in beta testing for anyone to make pronouncements on the inescapable nature of combos. As a Jigglypuff player I find myself constantly deflecting Johns by showing the people I've been playing how to escape the dreaded 3-hit rest combos. Lets take pound > up-air > rest. Now, my best friend, who I play more than anyone else, can consistently escape this combo because he knows the matchup and knows how to DI out of it (yes, it is possible to (S)DI out of). Now, he's no pro, he's a tourney virgin in fact. Yet he manages to, more often than anyone else I've seen, escape these supposedly insane death combos.
The defensive options are there, but they require a lot more skill to utilize than in vBrawl where every other move was punishable ON HIT. Now, melee had more proactive defense options, namely wavedashing. But people also have spent years and years mastering that game. The comparison doesn't even begin to work. People also are quick to overlook things like Melee's **** CGs, which are as insane as anything in B+. That brings me to what I feel is the real issue here:
A lot of the combos in B+ seem sloppy because the followup window is so seemingly massive. People need to practice the SDI required to escape many of these combos, to the point where it is muscle memory. That said, some moves seriously will just combo near effortlessly, against most of the cast. Falcon can d-throw to knee all day (and it IS inescapable PAST KO% on some characters). Don't get grabbed? Well, ok, except that there are setups for the grab now. Is it actually a problem? Honestly idk, that's a very tough question. Is it hella easy to execute? YES!
Lowering hitstun universally will either cause more harm than good OR have no measurable impact, depending on the amount. This is because we are using a sledgehammer where we need a scalpel. Before you come up with a clever counter metaphor, remember that combos drastically differ across the cast dramatically, and its not exactly black and white. Nor is the current system without really solid, well-worked, combos. A WoP with Jigglypuff isn't usually made up of purely true combos, b-air chains link well, but not well enough to make yourself a sandwich in between hits. The opponent can and will get out of hitstun very often, the reason WoP is so good is due to the enormous strategic disadvantage it puts the opponent in.
OK, I've got to go to work, but I have a lot of ideas as to how we can actually make things better without changing the hitstun modifier (if we do it should only be to get rid of the redundant .0065). Messing with BKB (each 25 points of bkb = 12 points of hitstun remember...), kbg, damage, and lag values, is a much better way to deal with these issues. Throw combos, which imo are the worst of all, could be fixed by changing the lag upon release. Its almost like I've made a thread with a bunch of the relevant data in it...
The question of character specific hitstun is still on the table as well. I just need to wait for mah USB-Gecko, and for some free time at school to look into PSA for the Luigi code weirdness that recently was brought to my attention.
Should we lower hitstun and if so, how?
This is the most important question we must answer: should we lower hitstun to the point where it has a noticable impact on comboing. While it strikes me as a little ridiculous that we'd be doing this immediately after releasing 5.0, and a little disingenuous in regards to people who will be training, there are several moves that have ludicrous, massive followup windows. It is the most consistent criticism of B+ I've encountered.
I, as you know, oppose the idea of lowering hitstun. I firmly believe that people are not experienced enough with the newborn codeset of a game still in beta testing for anyone to make pronouncements on the inescapable nature of combos. As a Jigglypuff player I find myself constantly deflecting Johns by showing the people I've been playing how to escape the dreaded 3-hit rest combos. Lets take pound > up-air > rest. Now, my best friend, who I play more than anyone else, can consistently escape this combo because he knows the matchup and knows how to DI out of it (yes, it is possible to (S)DI out of). Now, he's no pro, he's a tourney virgin in fact. Yet he manages to, more often than anyone else I've seen, escape these supposedly insane death combos.
The defensive options are there, but they require a lot more skill to utilize than in vBrawl where every other move was punishable ON HIT. Now, melee had more proactive defense options, namely wavedashing. But people also have spent years and years mastering that game. The comparison doesn't even begin to work. People also are quick to overlook things like Melee's **** CGs, which are as insane as anything in B+. That brings me to what I feel is the real issue here:
A lot of the combos in B+ seem sloppy because the followup window is so seemingly massive. People need to practice the SDI required to escape many of these combos, to the point where it is muscle memory. That said, some moves seriously will just combo near effortlessly, against most of the cast. Falcon can d-throw to knee all day (and it IS inescapable PAST KO% on some characters). Don't get grabbed? Well, ok, except that there are setups for the grab now. Is it actually a problem? Honestly idk, that's a very tough question. Is it hella easy to execute? YES!
Lowering hitstun universally will either cause more harm than good OR have no measurable impact, depending on the amount. This is because we are using a sledgehammer where we need a scalpel. Before you come up with a clever counter metaphor, remember that combos drastically differ across the cast dramatically, and its not exactly black and white. Nor is the current system without really solid, well-worked, combos. A WoP with Jigglypuff isn't usually made up of purely true combos, b-air chains link well, but not well enough to make yourself a sandwich in between hits. The opponent can and will get out of hitstun very often, the reason WoP is so good is due to the enormous strategic disadvantage it puts the opponent in.
OK, I've got to go to work, but I have a lot of ideas as to how we can actually make things better without changing the hitstun modifier (if we do it should only be to get rid of the redundant .0065). Messing with BKB (each 25 points of bkb = 12 points of hitstun remember...), kbg, damage, and lag values, is a much better way to deal with these issues. Throw combos, which imo are the worst of all, could be fixed by changing the lag upon release. Its almost like I've made a thread with a bunch of the relevant data in it...
The question of character specific hitstun is still on the table as well. I just need to wait for mah USB-Gecko, and for some free time at school to look into PSA for the Luigi code weirdness that recently was brought to my attention.
Many of the people here deserve a break after all the work getting to 5.0. I... am not one of you. I have a lot of catching up to do still.
