Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[Drunkinsnail]

Lack of knowledge strikes again. Got bopped first round at a tourney yesterday by a pretty good Zelda cuz I let her go to WarioWare. Apparently it's her best stage and it definitely showed. I learned a lot about Zelda while playing sets with the guy, which is going to help immensely, but do you guys feel like there's anything Ganon should be doing in particular?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Lack of knowledge strikes again. Got bopped first round at a tourney yesterday by a pretty good Zelda cuz I let her go to WarioWare. Apparently it's her best stage and it definitely showed. I learned a lot about Zelda while playing sets with the guy, which is going to help immensely, but do you guys feel like there's anything Ganon should be doing in particular?

Try with all your might to not get knocked off the stage.
The edge guard is pretty brutal, but not impossible.

I've found that poking works very well, and careful spacing is great (as always). I think we outrange her pretty well, but she can't have too much space to throw out din's fire. I'm a little wary of going for chain grabs or follow ups I'm not 100% will work because her neutral B can get her out of a lot.

Anyone else know more? I don't get to play against too many Zeldas..

 

[| Kailex |]

Zelda's floaty so you cant chain grab her much, but aerial flame choke to grab works on her

 

[CORY]

dthrow-upb catches her past around... 50-70? somewhere in that range you can't catch her with a bair, fair, or uair, but upb will go up at catch her before she can react.

other than that, i think a lot of it is just matchup familiarity and knowing when she can and can't nayru's out of attempted combo's, so you can know when to try and keep pressing your advantage versus holding back and punishing nayru's whiff.

also, if you see the zelda throw out a din's within wizkick range, jam that downb. the fireball doesn't go active until she releases it, and even if she does, wizkick does more than enough to go straight through an undetonated din's without clanking (except maybe in the case of a fully staled wizkick vs unstaled fully charged din's?).

 

[Drunkinsnail]

I'm a little wary of going for chain grabs or follow ups I'm not 100% will work because her neutral B can get her out of a lot.

Neutral B seems to be the Zelda panic button. Kind of like a Fire Emblem counter, it's nice and all, but it's pretty susceptible to baiting. I personally wouldn't let it discourage you too much from a decent folowup.

also, if you see the zelda throw out a din's within wizkick range, jam that downb. the fireball doesn't go active until she releases it, and even if she does, wizkick does more than enough to go straight through an undetonated din's without clanking (except maybe in the case of a fully staled wizkick vs unstaled fully charged din's?).

Huh, I wasn't really thinking about that. I was always just going in for F-air pressure when I saw a fireball come out. It's good to know that Wiz kick is a little more assured.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Lack of knowledge strikes again. Got bopped first round at a tourney yesterday by a pretty good Zelda cuz I let her go to WarioWare. Apparently it's her best stage and it definitely showed. I learned a lot about Zelda while playing sets with the guy, which is going to help immensely, but do you guys feel like there's anything Ganon should be doing in particular?

You didn't get bopped because you let them go to WarioWare. You got bopped because they bopped you lol. WarioWare is a good stage for both characters. I had a video of me playing a Zelda on WarioWare on a twitch archive, but it got deleted. I'll post it if it ever gets uploaded to youtube, though.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

You didn't get bopped because you let them go to WarioWare. You got bopped because they bopped you lol.

I definitely know that it's a good stage for Ganon, but what got me is that I didn't realize how good of a stage it was for Zelda. The guy had setups specifically for that stage and was able to kind of stuff me before I got any sort of momentum going. Next time I get to see him, I'm gonna ask to fight him a bit on Warioware, just so that I can be a little more prepared for the worst case scenario. I do have to say though, despite really liking that stage, it just felt better for Zelda in the matchup. Kinda of like how as much as I love the stage, I'd rather not take Marth to Yoshi's.

Anyway, I can john all day and it wont change the outcome. Even part of it comes from a lack of knowledge, I still got outplayed. I'd definitely appareciate a look at that match if it comes back up. Gotta come back stronger than before next time. Thanks, Steve. =)

 

[Badwolf]

How is the Ike/Gannon match up? Seems to me like Ike would have better spacing cept for Gannon's F-tilt.

 

[Spralwers]

It's a very weird match up. IMO, Ike does better on bigger stages where he has space to move around and do QD shenanigans, Ganon is better on smaller stages where he can more easily apply ftilt/dtilt pressure.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I know you can aerial flame choke > jab > aerial flame choke > etc on Peach (many people get hit but it's not guaranteed), does it work on Zelda as well? Or is she not floaty enough?

Don't underestimate the range on Ike's fsmash... it's real big

 

[Scuba Steve]

I know you can aerial flame choke > jab > aerial flame choke > etc on Peach (many people get hit but it's not guaranteed), does it work on Zelda as well? Or is she not floaty enough?

Don't underestimate the range on Ike's fsmash... it's real big

I don't know the specifics, but Zelda is really ****ing floaty. **** like aerial flame choke to grab works on her.

 

[Bazkip]

I was playing an Ivysaur the other day and I was punishing forced ledge hops from tethers with Flame Choke. After doing that a few times, the Ivy starting bair-ing me whenever I did it. I thought there wasn't enough time for Ivy to do anything? Was I just reacting to slow, or is Flame Choke not quick enough? Should I be doing something else, like ledgehop ftilt?

I still won, but it was just surprising when I got hit by that.

 

[CORY]

i've had that same experience. once ivy figures out to di forward during the ledge hop, you're gonna have a bad time, pretty much.

don't worry though. it's going to get better. i've seen the future.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I keep hearing about this grand future, but never when it is... are we talking the next couple weeks, or next year? I'm not as patient as I should be

 

[Electric Tuba]

Even if they DI, can you connect with an upair/fair?

 

[Scuba Steve]

I was playing an Ivysaur the other day and I was punishing forced ledge hops from tethers with Flame Choke. After doing that a few times, the Ivy starting bair-ing me whenever I did it. I thought there wasn't enough time for Ivy to do anything? Was I just reacting to slow, or is Flame Choke not quick enough? Should I be doing something else, like ledgehop ftilt?

I still won, but it was just surprising when I got hit by that.

Flame Choke is pretty slow, try using ledgehop upairs instead and see if that works. I've always done that and I don't get bair'd

 

[Exodo]

Ganon Vs Link matchup? :o

 

[Electric Tuba]

Ganon Vs Link matchup? :o

^This.

Also, what do you guys think about the Roy matchup?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganon Vs Link matchup? :o

It's pretty rough. Link has a great projectile game and Ganon doesn't have the best options for dealing with projectiles. Zair spacing is hard on Ganon as well and overall, it's just very hard to get in if the Link player chooses not to approach. However, Ganon does have a solid combo game on Link and he can also chaingrab for around 20%-30%. Unfortunately, that's about all he has going for him in that matchup. Edgeguarding Link is difficult because his bomb jumps and zair tether shenanigans. Going offstage or to the ledge to edgeguard is always a risk because he can zair release into pretty much whatever he wants. Link can even reverse ledgedash. Link has a great edge game. Powershielding is big in this matchup.

TL;DR
It's hard.

^This.

Also, what do you guys think about the Roy matchup?

I'd say that it's pretty even. Ganon does have a good chaingrab on Roy, but good Roy players will make sure to make themselves hard to grab against Ganon. Ganon has a good combo game on Roy, but Roy also combos Ganon very well. Roy will usually have the advantage in the neutral game, with his better mobility and approach options, but Ganon can also kill Roy at laughably low percents.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I know you can aerial flame choke > jab > aerial flame choke > etc on Peach (many people get hit but it's not guaranteed), does it work on Zelda as well? Or is she not floaty enough?

Don't underestimate the range on Ike's fsmash... it's real big

I don't know the specifics, but Zelda is really ****ing floaty. **** like aerial flame choke to grab works on her.

I'm pretty sure that with both Peach and Zelda you should be able to Aerial Flame Choke -> grab as long as they don't DI away. It's really funny cuz you just sit there and slam there faces into the ground twice. And at higher percents, Aerial Flame Choke -> Grab -> D-throw -> Up-B works pretty well (as long as they don't DI correctly and try to stay directly above you).

It's pretty rough. Link has a great projectile game and Ganon doesn't have the best options for dealing with projectiles. Zair spacing is hard on Ganon as well and overall, it's just very hard to get in if the Link player chooses not to approach. However, Ganon does have a solid combo game on Link and he can also chaingrab for around 20%-30%. Unfortunately, that's about all he has going for him in that matchup. Edgeguarding Link is difficult because his bomb jumps and zair tether shenanigans. Going offstage or to the ledge to edgeguard is always a risk because he can zair release into pretty much whatever he wants. Link can even reverse ledgedash. Link has a great edge game. Powershielding is big in this matchup.

TL;DR
It's hard.

That is one of my least favorite MUs EVER.

I'd say that it's pretty even. Ganon does have a good chaingrab on Roy, but good Roy players will make sure to make themselves hard to grab against Ganon. Ganon has a good combo game on Roy, but Roy also combos Ganon very well. Roy will usually have the advantage in the neutral game, with his better mobility and approach options, but Ganon can also kill Roy at laughably low percents.

No chaingrab? I'm pretty sure Ganon can U-throw -> U-throw -> U-throw -> D-throw -> D-throw -> D-throw into oblivion. Good luck grabbing a Roy, though.

I'm pretty sure Roy combos everyone a ton. You have to play really safe in this MU or learn how to swallow swords like those guys at sketchy carnivals.

F-tilt = your best friend in this MU.

 

[CORY]

i'd mostly agree with the roy matchup stuff. i think it might be 45-55 roy's favor, but it's still really close.

roy doesn't control the neutral super super hard, so the fact that ganon can get stupid punishes and has a dthrow chaingrab til forever actually means a lot.

 

[teluoborg]

Stay on the ground against Link, as trying to bait with SHs and DJs expose you to all his projectiles. Nerve wrecking matchup I agree.

Roy idk, I don't have a lot of trouble against him. You combo him, he comboes you, the one who comboes more wins.

 

[Bazkip]

Oh yeah, what about the ZSS matchup? It just feels absolutely atrocious.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Man, **** the ZSS matchup. The few times I've gotten to play it, it just felt straight up hopeless lol

 

[Revvy]

Man, **** the ZSS matchup. The few times I've gotten to play it, it just felt straight up hopeless lol

Been feeling that way about Charizard. Which is actually why I came here, do you guys have any advice for the Charizard MU?

 

[teluoborg]

Respect the range of his Nair,
Understand that he can juggle you from anywhere thanks to his down B,
Be careful about using your jumps.

Beside this idk much, I only played a few games against a good Charizard so I don't have that much exp, but from what I could see Nair was the only real problem.

 

[Revvy]

Respect the range of his Nair,
Understand that he can juggle you from anywhere thanks to his down B,
Be careful about using your jumps.

Beside this idk much, I only played a few games against a good Charizard so I don't have that much exp, but from what I could see Nair was the only real problem.

Yeah, the nairs are something I can typically predict, but they can certainly be a problem. I typically have trouble with his ground game, if I miss a tech on his down throw he ends up comboing me on the ground for about 40-50% with bites and dash attacks. I guess my problem is his range and dealing with his shield pressure. Any OoS options recommended?

 

[teluoborg]

Roll. I'm not even kidding.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Not sure if you guys know much about this since there aren't a lot of Yoshi mains, but Ganon can brutalize the little dinosaur pretty badly. All of his attacks send out hurtboxes with them, and you can grab/flamechoke most of his attacks.
His recovery is also really easy to stop, dair can knock him out of his dj armor at just 30-40. You can also ftilt his egg roll to either clank or flat out hit him.
I played a Yoshi at monthlies last week and four stocked him pretty easily, if they aren't super familiar with the match up it's even easier.

 

[CORY]

yeah, i pretty much agree, though i don't think i've actually played a really good yoshi yet.

ganon totally cares not for his double jump armor. but, i think it might go a bit more even if the yoshi knows what he's doing? i feel like yoshi can be enough of a pain with his egg toss to make you remember you're playing ganon. then you get to knock yoshi offstage, and remind him that you're playing ganon...

 

[Electric Tuba]

yeah, i pretty much agree, though i don't think i've actually played a really good yoshi yet.

ganon totally cares not for his double jump armor. but, i think it might go a bit more even if the yoshi knows what he's doing? i feel like yoshi can be enough of a pain with his egg toss to make you remember you're playing ganon. then you get to knock yoshi offstage, and remind him that you're playing ganon...

The eggs can be a little annoying, but they're not too difficult to just jump over/run under. If he throws one too close you can dash attack easily, but it may be worse if I played yoshi's that like the eggs a little more.

 

[CORY]

i'm just conjecturing, tbh. like i said, i haven't really played a solid yoshi yet, so it's hard to make a call other than "yeah, if he's offstage and isn't recovering super high, you can just destroy double jump armor" : p

 

[Spralwers]

I played Raptor at Zenith and managed to take a game off him. But I'm not sure if I'd be able to take a set off him at my current level. It's a very tricky match up, because Yoshi's neutral B can challenge the range of any of your attacks, and if the Yoshi is good with B reversals and wave bounces, it becomes really tricky to fight him at that mid range, which is where Ganon excels. For instance, if Yoshi dash dances into you and you throw a fair, he could just jump away, B reverse neutral B, then turn you into an egg and get free damage, plus give you bad stage position.

Also, with Yoshi being able to jump out of shield, his OoS options are real if you're not careful with spacing your attacks. His parry still works on grabs, and any seasoned Yoshi player will go for the parry if they can tell you're gonna go for the grab.

I would avoid stages with big blast zones, because Ganondorf's kill moves are easy to DI upwards. Yoshi's recovery, when he doesn't have to jump up, is so tricky to edgeguard because of his side B. So playing a stage with large blast zones gives Yoshi an easy chance to get lots of height off your kill moves, which boosts his survivability, which you don't want in this MU since Yoshi is already a heavyweight. High ceilings are good too, because Raptor got most of his kills on me by comboing into Yoshi's up air, which would kill me off the top of PS2 at around 100-110%.

I think Dorf is advantageous in this MU. Because Yoshi is heavy, and thus doesn't get knocked back very far, he's pretty easy to combo. Comboing Yoshi is pretty similar to comboing himself. Definitely not a free MU, but one of the few for Ganon that doesn't make you want to rip your hair out.

Also **** I hate Ness so much

 

[Electric Tuba]

Thanks for the advice from playing good Yoshis

One thing I do know is that his dair has ridiculous hitstun, at higher percents he can dair you and then charge an upsmash to hit and kill you. I've had no luck DI ing out, but maybe someone else has. It's not safe on shield for Yoshi, though.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I'm gonna have to disagree with Ganon winning. I actually think it's an easy mu for Yoshi if we never approach and just egg lay or pivot grab your slow approaches. That gets pretty boring though lol.

 

[Spralwers]

lol I can see that. That's why I liked PS2 a lot in our match, not too big blast zones, and I've got the timing down for wavelands on that stage to 80-90% consistency. Without the wavelands I had no real way of approaching you

 

[Electric Tuba]

I wish there were more yoshis around so I could try the match up more

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Can we talk about the Ness matchup a little? One of my regular training buddies mains Ness and even though I'm far more technical than him we seem to go about even. He doesn't use very much Ness tech at all (just now learning to djc and wavebounce PK Fire) but even so PK Fire seems to be like the bane of Ganon. I have to space and approach very carefully because if I get hit or caught in shield by PK Fire he can normally get a grab to tech chase out of it. Even after practicing smash DI-ing out of the fire, getting hit by it often leads to either a grab, another PK Fire, or a homerun bat. At higher percents, he can just PK Fire me and backthrow for kill. Aside from "Don't get hit," are there any tactics I can use against him? I tend to take him to a lot of platformed stages with close blastzones so that I can move better and KO him earlier, but on stages like Smashville and FD he gives me a hell of a time.

From what I can tell, Ganon does have a few things going for him. Trading with Ness' PK Rocket/PK Thunder 2 is dangerous, but Ganon is able to punish Ness hard if he comes in too close to the stage. Frequently, Ness recovers close and then Magnet stalls before rocketing back to the stage. If he spaces this incorrectly, you can just jump out and either Fair, Bair, or reverse U-air for the kill. If you're doing this you do need to make sure that Ness doesn't have a jump left. If he does, he'll likely just jump over you and D-air you to your doom. Even though this move is a meteor it comes out shockingly fast, and even if you do cancel it Ness might be able to hit you with a PK Fire while you're off stage or on ledge, which is a terrible position for Ganon. Both characters seem to edge-guard each other pretty well, actually. The other thing to look out for if you're recovering as Ganon is Ness hanging a yo-yo over the edge to catch you when you try to sweetspot. If you can anticipate this its rare that he'll be able to gimp you to death with it, but if you don't expect it you can get bopped pretty quickly.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm just not executing it correctly, but I can't seem to chaingrab Ness for ****.

That's most of what I've seen from playing my friend in this matchup, but again we're both pretty scrub-tier right now so I'm not sure how much of this is relevant. I'm hoping that the Ganon mains out of Texas might have some advice considering that Awestin is in that region?

 

[Electric Tuba]

I secondary Ness, and while I'm no pro I can give some tips.

Like you've noticed, you really have to be careful of pk fire. It's basically a guaranteed grab for Ness and he has crazy combos on most of the cast with djc and some tech reads, especially Ganon. Dthrow>any aerial he wants is also almost guaranteed at all percents.

I think you can ftilt him if he tries to use fair to approach, maybe fair as well. If you can powershield pk fire reliably you should, but I know it's hard. You've also got to be careful about putting on too much unsafe shield pressure, OOS jump>nair is very fast.

I think you can stomp pkt2 when he recovers, I'll check later today. If he pkt2's onto the stage or a platform, there's almost no landing lag, so watch out for bats

Right now Ness seems like a bad match, but if you're careful you can avoid getting bodied and punish him. Ness dies fast, but pkt2 goes FAR.

That's pretty grim, but I think it's still playable

Edit: FD is a big no no IMO, try for platforms to protect you from pk fire lockdown. Beware of combos/tech chases, though...

 

[teluoborg]

Pkt2 is invincible for most of the duration so don't try anything funny on it.

And yeah Yoshi's shield invincibility is ********. It's like the pmbr decided to punish you for making the good read or something. Trying to implement something unfinished when you've already given him jump OOS is something I have trouble understanding.