Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[CORY]

so, i apparently inspired someone to pick up ganon, and we were discussing basics and tricks at a tourney.

but he asked me if ganon has any actually positive matchups and... i don't know. like, i truly don't know. i just know his horrid matchups (anything with a solid projectile and decent mobility ;x).

so, do we have anything positive? or are we literally 50-50 at best?

 

[ShadowGanon]

Umm... Jigglypuff?

 

[Scuba Steve]

so, i apparently inspired someone to pick up ganon, and we were discussing basics and tricks at a tourney.

but he asked me if ganon has any actually positive matchups and... i don't know. like, i truly don't know. i just know his horrid matchups (anything with a solid projectile and decent mobility ;x).

so, do we have anything positive? or are we literally 50-50 at best?

I'd say that the Zelda and Luigi match-ups are positive for Ganon.

 

[CORY]

Umm... Jigglypuff?

why do you say that? that was one of my initial thoughts, since i think ganon has a slight advantage on stage, but offstage, ganon should just die immediately to jiggs, it feels like, which makes it feel 50:50 to me. what do you think the numbers are? and why do you think they are what they are? i'm curious.

I'd say that the Zelda and Luigi match-ups are positive for Ganon.

and i can kind of see luigi being positive for ganon. what's your rationale for those and how do you see the numbers?

 

[| Kailex |]

Luigi being positive.... Albslsaloevelwhwiwj this is madness, you guys should play against a good luigi to say that

 

[ShadowGanon]

why do you say that? that was one of my initial thoughts, since i think ganon has a slight advantage on stage, but offstage, ganon should just die immediately to jiggs, it feels like, which makes it feel 50:50 to me. what do you think the numbers are? and why do you think they are what they are? i'm curious.

and i can kind of see luigi being positive for ganon. what's your rationale for those and how do you see the numbers?

1. Jigglypuff shouldn't ever be able to get close to you should have a hard time getting in because of ACed N-airs.
2. One stray hit above 50% can kill him.
3. Trades are always in your favor (you're playing as stinking Ganondorf).
4. If the Jigglypuff misses a rest, you have an insta-kill on him (This is the only MU where you can actually use the Warlock Punch).

I'd say 60:40 in Ganon's favor

 

[CORY]

autocancelled nair shouldn't be a panacea against jigs, though. they're nice, but the hitbox is only in front of you and your followups to cover out of it are either slower, but can cover distance/height (ftilt, with about 10 frames of startup); or fast, but only covers a short area in front of you (jab, with 3 frames startup). going for another nair out if it would be around a... 15 frame commitment?

it makes the game not entirely in jiggs favor, but it seems far from being able to just shut jiggs out entirely.

edit: i agree with your other points, though. i totally forgot about how well trades work out for ganon in the matchup.

 

[Spralwers]

I can see Ganon being slightly positive against Marth. They were in many cases even in melee, and all of Ganon's new tools are applicable in this MU, for both in neutral and when punishing. I have lots of experience in this MU at least at mid level and will eventually want to discuss it in depth.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Anybody think that the MK MU is positive for Ganon? I think it might be, but I don't have enough experience with it.

 

[CORY]

it really doesn't feel that way to me, but our resident mk is several skill levels above me, so i can't comment much on it...

 

[Qispichiq]

Are there any strategies for Sonic other then nair and flame choke? I feel like a sandbag verses Sonic, all I can do is wait for him to get close and either die or get an aerial.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Are there any strategies for Sonic other then nair and flame choke? I feel like a sandbag verses Sonic, all I can do is wait for him to get close and either die or get an aerial.

If you feel like a sandbag, you just might be one. Ganon is based around punishes, so your neutral game needs to be excellent if you want to get really good with him. And don't be fooled by Sonic's speed, a lot of his attacks have low priority. Just some basic advice, work on auto-cancelled nairs, that is Ganon's prime defense against rapid approaches. And to counter Sonic's mobility, pick stages with platforms that you can easily waveland on, since he has that oh so beautiful waveland.

 

[DahremRuhar]

I'm not generally one to worry about MUs, because at low to mid levels against my local players I am fairly adept at psychologically destroying my opponents regardless of their character. I'm attending a local this weekend, and I think I legitimately have a chance to break into top 5, and therein lies my current dilemma.


How in the actual [CENSORED B/C POTTY LANGUAGE] am I supposed to fight Ness? Just to be clear, I do not believe in playing secondaries in bracket. I just have trouble with Ness. (conveniently one of the top players in NY State plays Ness). Just some basic tips on what our tools in that MU are is all I want. Obviously AC Nairs, etc. but anything else? Stage choices, stuff to avoid all-together?

Btdubz, I'll also have videos after the fact.
Thanks in advance kiddies.

 

[Spralwers]

Against Sanic, in addition to the above, crouch cancel grab, crouch cancel jab, shield grabs as additions to your defensive strategy. If you can wait for him to get close, you can advance forward a little bit and invade his space. Ganon gets such easy chain grabs on him too.

As for the MK MU, I'm not sure. I only have a bit of experience. Since nothing has been posted about the MU I'll add some of my thoughts: MK has the small size and the overall speed. Ganon gets good mileage out of crouch cancels, also MK never wants to be above him. MK's just as easy combo food as Roy is, it might just look deceiving because MK is tiny and he can fly. His tech roll is horrible. MK also gets dthrow tech chases pretty easily and I see some MKs, after a grab at low percents, do I think either an fthrow/dthrow into dimensional cape, and it'll always catch away DI. It might be best most of the time to DI his throws upwards and just take a nair follow up or something. I'd say Ganon is negative against a campy MK, but definitely not as much as vs Sheik in melee.

For Ness: Just bait and avoid PK fires. Easier said than done, but once you get the hang of it, the rest will come. Be sure your SDI is on point for escaping PK fires if you get hit, and you can shield SDI pk fires as well.

 

[teluoborg]

If Ness PK Fires your shield just roll away. If Ness PK Fires you directly hold down and shield to crouch cancel>shield, then roll away.
All in all PK fire is pretty slow and has a small hitbox before activating, so if you're not throwing out random punches you should be able to avoid them.

Also don't forget that Uair is your best aerial, not because it hits hard but because it hits everywhere fast and with no lag.

 

[| Kailex |]

Once you can counter pk fire by rolling away, id say that it would be good to try and powershield them

 

[DahremRuhar]

If Ness PK Fires you directly hold down and shield to crouch cancel>shield, then roll away.

There we go. Knew everything else already. PK fire is just irritating, and makes my mentality go down the drain.

Once you can counter pk fire by rolling away, id say that it would be good to try and powershield them

Already Perfect Shield them as much as possible. The problem is the rare occasions when I screw up, which will be augmented by the fact that my cat bit through the wire on my main controller, so I have to adjust to a new one.

Thanks guys.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Anybody think that the MK MU is positive for Ganon? I think it might be, but I don't have enough experience with it.

One of our best players over here in Austin plays MK. However, most times we've played in bracket, he has opted to go Roy, so I've mostly just played the match-up some in friendlies. I don't have a lot of super specific stuff that I can point out, but I will say that my first impression of the match-up was that it never seemed hopeless at any point. Although MK is much more mobile than Ganon, he doesn't have a projectile. Without a projectile to force Ganon to approach, Ganon can try and bait bad approaches from his opponent much more safely. Yeah, MK poops on Ganon once he's offstage, but Ganon kills MK at pretty freaking low percents even with good DI. MK is really light (maybe even 2nd or 3rd lightest in the game, IIRC).

 

[BladeOFLucas]

One of our best players over here in Austin plays MK. However, most times we've played in bracket, he has opted to go Roy, so I've mostly just played the match-up some in friendlies. I don't have a lot of super specific stuff that I can point out, but I will say that my first impression of the match-up was that it never seemed hopeless at any point. Although MK is much more mobile than Ganon, he doesn't have a projectile. Without a projectile to force Ganon to approach, Ganon can try and bait bad approaches from his opponent much more safely. Yeah, MK poops on Ganon once he's offstage, but Ganon kills MK at pretty freaking low percents even with good DI. MK is really light (maybe even 2nd or 3rd lightest in the game, IIRC).

That's kind of what I was thinking, glad to have that confirmed. Ganon also has the advantage of a little bit more flexibility when it comes to mixing things up in a reliable way. And I think that a somewhat large portion of their attacks are clankable, correct?

 

[CORY]

mk? mk's attacks are unclankable. his sword has transcendent priority, so it goes through everything (except nair, which can stop projectiles?).

 

[ShadowGanon]

mk? mk's attacks are unclankable. his sword has transcendent priority, so it goes through everything (except nair, which can stop projectiles?).

Point being?

 

[CORY]

Point being?

That's kind of what I was thinking, glad to have that confirmed. Ganon also has the advantage of a little bit more flexibility when it comes to mixing things up in a reliable way. And I think that a somewhat large portion of their attacks are clankable, correct?

he asked if the attacks are clankable, while i'm assuming talking about mk.

you cannot clank mk's attacks, other than dash attack.

therefore, the point being, i was making sure everyone was on the same page and understanding how characters work.

 

[Bazkip]

What can you do about Wario? It just seems like his SideB wins the whole matchup on it's own.

 

[Spralwers]

Bait the side B and shield it. It has so much end lag if you shield it, more than enough to drop your shield, run up to him, and grab him.

Also be careful about challenging him in the air, whether its air to air or air to ground, because his aerial mobility is crazy good.

 

[Bazkip]

Bait the side B and shield it. It has so much end lag if you shield it, more than enough to drop your shield, run up to him, and grab him.

Also be careful about challenging him in the air, whether its air to air or air to ground, because his aerial mobility is crazy good.

Everyone keeps on telling me how unsafe on shield it is but that's completely irrelevant imo because it's not safe to shield either, since you don't know if it's a sideB or dash grab. It seems like the only option is to just get out of the way

Edit: other than when he jumps it, obviously. I suppose past a certain distance you'll know ad well, but that's pretty far.

 

[Scuba Steve]

What can you do about Wario? It just seems like his SideB wins the whole matchup on it's own.

Jump back fair, runaway bair. Watch for the side-b when you are on different platform heights, because from my experience, Wario players really like to side-b down from platforms and also like to do them from the ground and jump up to the platform you're on to catch you off guard.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

So, you guys were talking about Luigi being a decent matchup, but nothing ever went into specifics. Can I get a breakdown of why that would be favorable/what options are available in certain situations?

Also, anybody know anything for Squirtle? I've been told it should be positive for Ganon, but the chars that are small and slippery just give me a ton of trouble. A lot of it comes down to character inexperience, but I pretty much have 0 idea what to against shell shifting shenanigans either.

Got a local coming up where I'm expecting to get bopped by these two, so I'd certainly appreciate some insight.
Woo, first post!

 

[Bryonato]

Snail you can totally bop Biznitch. He's a hyper aggressive Luigi. Try spacing bairs like you were vs. Zerx and I think you'll find he'll run into them a lot

 

[Drunkinsnail]

I know one thing that really got into my head the last time I fought him is not knowing what's actually punishable. Cuz I would go for a punish on random aerial A after it hit my shield and then just get smacked in the face by another one. Any stages you think would be preferential?

 

[Drunkinsnail]

So, with the Wario Side-B thing. I'm not sure if this is super obvious and you've already delved into it, but it doesn't really seem to have been mentioned. As far as I'm aware, Ganon's Side B completely stuffs Wario's. Doing it on reaction to the animation should just give it to you free, and if turns out to be an attempted dash grab, you'll be testing their reactions.

You also said that it doesn't matter if you're in shield, but you really don't have to much to lose if you keep shielded against it. With the punish options you have available (Run up grab, OoS F-air, ect.) You either get a sick punish, or you get him habitually dash grabbing because you've been staying in shield. Keep him out with some F-titls and he should be thinking twice about it.
At that point, he's got just as much of a guess to make as you do, and you'll probably get more out of it.

Anyway, I'm new here, so feel free to tell me to stuff it if that's super inaccurate, but that's how I'd play the situation. =O

 

[teluoborg]

The problem with Wario's side B is that if he's smart he's gonna use it as tech chase/follow up. And when you're hard pressed you don't always have the time to use your own side B.
Maybe you should try simply rolling behind him ? I played against a very good Wario and it worked to some extent (I still lost, dat Dair is merciless against Ganon's recovery). So yeah, try to give in to one of the worst habits in the history of Smash.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

Yea, if you're getting knocked down at a decent percent, then it really does become more of a guessing game out of your favor. But from the sound of it, it seemed like the Wario in question was just kind of throwing it out will nilly and he didn't know how to deal with it raw.

But yea, you've gotta read a little harder than he does for a tech chace, but the profits should be the same or better. So, just keep in mind that you're a powerhouse that always has the potential to come back from the depths of a bad situation.

 

[maggot447]

What are some of your guys/girls thoughts on the Squirtle MU? I have trouble with it, but anybody else have any tips for it?

 

[Electric Tuba]

What are some of your guys/girls thoughts on the Squirtle MU? I have trouble with it, but anybody else have any tips for it?

I've had some issues as well, but I don't get to play squirtles very much.. Be careful to angle everything you can down, though; a lot of attacks flat out go over his head

 

[maggot447]

I've had some issues as well, but I don't get to play squirtles very much.. Be careful to angle everything you can down, though; a lot of attacks flat out go over his head

His speed can be very overwhelming considering the lag on most of Ganondorf's b's. Crouch cancelling and side or down b is what I have to use most of the time.

 

[Drunkinsnail]

I get a lot of use out of Wiz kick in this matchup. It goes straight through Side B, watergun, most of his normals... As with most things, spaced bair works pretty well. It angles itself downward a bit, so it's one of a few decent options against that super small crouch. Note: Tech bubble or die

 

[Spralwers]

Side B also grabs squirtle right out of withdraw.

 

[maggot447]

Side B also grabs squirtle right out of withdraw.

The person I play generally does Squirtle's side b from the air, which makes it harder to grab out of. I think my big thing is getting more patience.

Also, is it just me, or is it pretty funny that Dorf grabs Squirtle out of that? Just rolling towards you in a shell and then BOOM, got you by the neck.

 

[CORY]

you can also grab sonic out of his spin attack, though he can more easily jump out of it (i think?) than squirtle can.

in theory, when they go and fix up kirby's dash attack to be grabbable (plsplspls fix this omg based pmbr) you might be able to grab him out that, too.

even though ganon's grab box is at his elbow, he's a bit high up off the ground, so the low hitboxes of those moves go under his vulnerable hand and get caught by the grab.

 

[MACKU]

so, i apparently inspired someone to pick up ganon, and we were discussing basics and tricks at a tourney.

but he asked me if ganon has any actually positive matchups and... i don't know. like, i truly don't know. i just know his horrid matchups (anything with a solid projectile and decent mobility ;x).

so, do we have anything positive? or are we literally 50-50 at best?

Reading posts like this makes me sad. I truly believe that once we advance the Ganon meta far enough (and maybe get one or two quality of life improvements) he will be more than able to claim some good matchups. HAVE FAITH MY FELLOW MAN