Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[Hungry Headcrab]

Well, 3.0 has been out for a little bit now. Anyone feel like discussing the Samus match-up?

What I've gotten out of it so far is just that Samus has a lot of tools to camp Ganondorf effectively. Missiles and charge shot are obviously brutal from a distance, and her zair and nair are good at warding off approaches/Flame Chokes quickly. Wiz Kick is a good tool in this match-up, as it plows through homing missiles and clanks with the rest of Samus's arsenal, including a fully charged nB. You can still get shot in the face, but it's still a somewhat safe option if you use it smartly.

Once you get a hold of her, it's difficult to actually combo with your d-throw. She's floaty, and her nair can ward off anything really good out of the throw. We might be better off just trying to throw her off stage for edgeguarding, but that's it's own issue entirely.

In my experience, with all of those bomb-jumping/tether shenanigans, you have to go deep to stop Samus from recovering. DEEP. Samus is heavy enough that even a fair off-stage is somewhat difficult to kill with, though dair is obviously still effective but more difficult to execute. You can time it right off of the tether to get a good spike, but Screw Attack is there to bail her out if they're playing properly. It is possible to get a dair on Samus during Screw Attack, but the timing is tricky because the hitboxes on that move are bonkers. At the very least, you should be able to trade hits, which is good enough as far as a dair is concerned.

Anyone have anything else?

 

[shwickid222]

Dude I couldnt agree with you more about samus. Very hard to combo. It might be safer to aerial up tilt her out of down throw. My roomate wizkid plays her alot. And that seems to be the way to go. Id use it as an edge guard to against the screw attack.

 

[shwickid222]

Wait a sec... you guys have trouble with fox and falco with ganon?!? Oh dear. I wreck face on spacies with ganon. There bouncy and have poor reaction time. Smh. There recoveries are easy to punish too lol. I welcome that match up everytime. Better than snake or samus.

 

[Yanoss1313]

to be honest, the only Samus i play with regularly relies far too much on projectile camping for me to properly gauge the match-up... I've found it's not too hard to shield reflect super missiles and charged power-beam shots all day long.
Z-air camping would be an issue, but since it's only viable on landing (most of the time), you can usually tell when it's about to happen.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Wait a sec... you guys have trouble with fox and falco with ganon?!? Oh dear. I wreck face on spacies with ganon. There bouncy and have poor reaction time. Smh. There recoveries are easy to punish too lol. I welcome that match up everytime. Better than snake or samus.

It's not the hardest matchup in the world, (ain't no melee Shiek), but it's certainly no easy face-rocking...
I dunno, maybe you've not played too many top level spacies yet.
If you're good on your spacing, you can keep them out fairly well, but, the moment they get the opportunity to apply heavy pressure, the story changes.
It's very difficult for Ganondorf to punish their approaches if their execution is on point, (especially Falco).
Though the recent buff to wizards foot can allow it to plow straight through Falco laser for a LoL punish if he's not expecting it.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I'm realizing more and more that the Samus match-up basically amounts to getting Samus off-stage, then spending the next two minutes just trying to keep it that way. Samus is just really hard to kill, even in that precarious position (barring a dair of course). A perfectly placed DACUS can do it, but that's pretty rare, unfortunately.

As far as the Spacie match-up goes, I only have any real experience playing with Wolf. It's a pretty silly match-up. You are either getting comboed to an early grave, or wrecking him. There really is no middle ground. It can be hard to get anything going, but one grab (usually into f-tilt) can usually get them off-stage, and it doesn't take much from there to finish them off. Bair is your best friend for that, what with that disjointed hitbox and all. It's pretty good for stuffing his recovery options.

Hopefully something there is helpful against Fox or Falco, but I don't have enough experience in either match-up to give any specific advice.

 

[Nguz95]

I think this match should help explain the Samus mu. It's Kage vs Violence at Big House 3. It is be Melee, but a lot of the same stuff should still apply.
http://youtu.be/qNpS0PCwb0E

The Fox MU is eternally frustrating, but here is Arty doing pretty well against M2K and showing what options Ganon has.
http://youtu.be/-y68kFmu9zU

The Falco. MU is really polarizing and can be frustrating, but I think a great example of how to win it is Kage vs Mattdotzeb at Rom6.
http://youtu.be/_JpcxpHZG0E

A lot of the spacie MU revolves around getting them off the stage as quickly as possible, and Ganon's best move in this regard is definitely ftilt. Whether you set it up with a nair or a grab, it doesn't matter as long as you can get them to where you can bair them until they die.

 

[CORY]

It might be safer to aerial up tilt her out of down throw.

as opposed to your aerial up smash?

and i think you need to find better spacies. they kind of have the opposite of poor reaction time.

personally, i haven't really played any wolfs (haven't seen any dorf v wolf either, i don't think...), but fox feels much harder than falco. it doesn't seem like it would be that way, since falco should be able to just completely dominate everything you try on stage, but he just seems to eat hits much worse than fox (probably the shorter recovery. it could also be the falco players that don't just immediately destroy me are worse than the fox players in the same camp?)

 

[ShadowGanon]

If you guys don't mind, could you guys post some numbers for some of the matchups? A friend and I are trying to get a match up chart going, and it's really hard to just scroll through a bunch of match up threads and come up with numbers by simply reading peoples opinions. I'll probably take all of your numbers for each matchup and average them out. And if you could do it in a format similar to something like Ganon/Sheik = 40/60 (<-- probably not accurate, but you know what I mean). Thanks.

 

[teluoborg]

Hear these wise words from someone who participated in the making of 2 matchup charts :

Numbers don't mean ****.
You will never find two person that have the same definition for matchup ratios.
Deciding numbers for the sake of having numbers never brings anything good.
Matchup charts are filled with uncoherent bull****.
The people that really know the matchups don't post on smashboards.
No matter the amount of work you put into it, your efforts will never be rewarded.

Step down before it's too late.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Hear these wise words from someone who participated in the making of 2 matchup charts :

Numbers don't mean ****.
You will never find two person that have the same definition for matchup ratios.
Deciding numbers for the sake of having numbers never brings anything good.
Matchup charts are filled with uncoherent bull****.
The people that really know the matchups don't post on smashboards.
No matter the amount of work you put into it, your efforts will never be rewarded.

Step down before it's too late.

I definitely see your point, but I'm doing this more for my friend than for myself. I could care less about about a matchup chart. I was the guy that played Ganondorf in Brawl knowing full well that he was the worst character in the game and had zero good matchups.

About people never agreeing with matchup ratios: I know that kind of thing is bound to happen. That is why I would be asking people to not argue and just averaging all the ratios out. And isn't this what the matchup thread is for?

And I know full well that a matchup chart would be near pointless seeing as PM is going to change over time. Once again, I'm doing this for my friend.

Question: Why don't the people that actually know that matchups post on here?

 

[DarkMagicX2]

What advice would any of you guys have in the vs Mario matchup?

I entered a tournament a few weeks ago and had to face a pretty solid Mario. He left me few openings that I could see, and caped my recovery often. I did end up outplaying him in the end, but it concerned me that I had a harder time against a Mario than with any other character there that day. It could be that I have virtually no experience in the matchup or the fact that I know I have a reckless and an overly aggressive play style that no Ganondorf should adopt. But nonetheless, I'm curious to know if there is a way to more easily overcome Mario and his various shenanigans that seemed to put me at a disadvantage.

Thanks in advance, fellow Ganons.

 

[Yanoss1313]

What advice would any of you guys have in the vs Mario matchup?

I entered a tournament a few weeks ago and had to face a pretty solid Mario. He left me few openings that I could see, and caped my recovery often. I did end up outplaying him in the end, but it concerned me that I had a harder time against a Mario than with any other character there that day. It could be that I have virtually no experience in the matchup or the fact that I know I have a reckless and an overly aggressive play style that no Ganondorf should adopt. But nonetheless, I'm curious to know if there is a way to more easily overcome Mario and his various shenanigans that seemed to put me at a disadvantage.

Thanks in advance, fellow Ganons.

in my experience, the mario matchup is all about reach. I've found retreating Fairs to be quite strong in this matchup.

 

[teluoborg]

Seconding that, Mario is a very good character and you don't have much on him except range. It's a pretty good advantage though, but he can work his way around with his projectiles and very fast movement.

Just be aware of his burst range and don't get caught up in his projectile game (pretty much anything you have will kill his fireballs) and you should be ok.

Oh and mix up your recovery, iirc side B is harder to cape than up B tho you shouldn't be obvious with either.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm making a MU chart and I need your help with Falcon? Thoughts?
I am of the opinion that Falcon's movement would make it hard for Ganondorf to do anything without being punished.

 

[Spralwers]

Falcon still has really weak approach moves and is gonna rely on Ganon to mess up on the neutral game before punishing. But Ganon punishes Falcon just as hard if not harder than Falcon punishes Ganon. I think Ganon has the advantage, especially if the Ganon is patient.

Edit:
Also, I went to a tournament in canada (polybash) and lost pretty badly (2 stocked or 3 stocked) against metaknight and ivysaur.

The person playing metaknight was none other than Holy, Ally's bro, so a big part of the match was Holy just being a much better smasher than me. But other than that, Meta knight is just so fast and strong, plus he's short, so I've had several grabs and even a few jabs miss. Last match I adopted slightly and found Ftilts to be pretty amazing. CCing is nice too but I'm not too sure what a good option is out of CC.

The person playing ivy was kingkong who has been getting a ton of training with both Ally and Holy. The main trouble I had in the Ivy match up was dealing with razor leaf. He knew that wiz foot plows through it so he'd space himself just right that if I did wiz foot, he'd recover from the lag and counter attack before I hit him. I think I just need to be patient and just cancel out the leafs with stuff like nair.

 

[teluoborg]

I feel like The Falcon matchup is hard because Falcon has an easier time baiting errors out of Ganon than the contrary, due to how fast he can weave in and out. Beside that I'd argue that it's pretty even because even if Falcon's punishes aren't as strong Ganon he can confirm little things into painful combos.

Also congrats on your placing sprawlers, good luck on the Ivy macthup, I know it can be a pain even though Uair is super effective against her.

Care to share the matchups you won ?

 

[Spralwers]

In bracket:

Kirby. I forget who the player was using the first match, but he counter picked my Ganon with Kirby and went to Norfair. He relied on dash attack a lot, which I outspaced and generally punished with side B. I think he counterpicked the stage because of the platforms, but I believe it ultimately went into my favor because that platforms gave me so many easy chances to attack with uair.

Charizard. This was none other than Chibo's. Charizard just seemed too slow and too big to target. When he got in close, nair was awesome.

Mario. He admitted to me he had no idea how to fight Ganon, and I think it definitely showed. He CP'd Green Hill against me which I think was a bad idea, he had such little room to use fireballs. He had a ton of SDs and missed Mario's up B wall jump recovery a lot (which I think is the reason he picked the stage in the first place). Retreating fairs were my best friend here.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Falcon had a slight advantage in Melee, with the buffs that Ganon has gotten (mainly his flame choke side b) does that swing the match into even? I say that it does, it just seems even to me.

 

[howbadisbad]

Can someone explain how to not get dunked by Mario? All my matches with my friend who literally just picked up Mario today have been as followed.

>Never approach just fireball
>If I get grabbed I get downthrown to oblivion
>eventually get thrown or dsmashed offstage
>never recover because cape and fireballs

 

[Bazkip]

Can someone explain how to not get dunked by Mario? All my matches with my friend who literally just picked up Mario today have been as followed.

>Never approach just fireball
>If I get grabbed I get downthrown to oblivion
>eventually get thrown or dsmashed offstage
>never recover because cape and fireballs

You can Wiz Foot right through fireballs unless they're fresh (but Mario's fireballs are pretty much always gonna be stale save for at the beginning of a stock) so that can be a good option for dealing with fireball pressure. Obviously space it properly so you don't just get grabbed at the end of it.

 

[CORY]

oh god, ivy is such a terrible matchup.

like, 11:-1, ivy's favor ;x

 

[Yanoss1313]

oh god, ivy is such a terrible matchup.

like, 11:-1, ivy's favor ;x

lol, that seemed a little hyperbolic.
Yeah, it's an annoying match-up for sure. What with all the leaves and vines... so many reaches! <.<
Although I've found it a bit more manageable with the addition of the forced ledge hop on tethers.

 

[CORY]

it was totally hyperbolic : p

but she's probably the worst matchup for ganon, currently. if ivy decides to not approach and just lame you out with projectiles and bair, it's really really really difficult to get near her, much like if snake or falco tries to just zone you out with projectiles.

except, if you touch falco, he's the perfect weight/fall speed combo to do really nasty stupid stuff to if you get a solid read off a tech or roll. and his recovery can be edgeguarded much easier, especially if he comes in low.

snake is sort of the same, but he doesn't fall right into as easy combos and his recovery isn't as easy to deal with.

ivy just kind of floats out of a lot of stuff and dealing with her tether is a huge pain : / she also edgeguards you even easier than the other two, since her bair has such huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge range and covers such a large arc. and it does that twice ;x

 

[teluoborg]

Nah Ivy is manageable, I'd say much more than things with strong offense like Falco.
You just have to shift your gameplay, be very patient and stay on the ground as much as possible. You can't go all out as her cooldowns are low and can be confusing, but if you stay alert you can punish a lot of unspaced things, and she needs to hit with the second hit of her Bair for it to do anything. It's hardcore offstage tho, and if you get put under ledge level you're as good as dead.

Her tether is easy to deal with, since she's not invincible on her way to the ledge and if you're already hugging it you get a free punish off her forced jump.

Her Dtilt range is ******** too.

 

[Spralwers]

To add on, you can cancel out razor leaf with literally any move. You can CC the entire move too. She's easy to knock off stage, so during neutral, try to advance on her (but without committing entirely to offense) and slowly get her closer to the ledge. Always punish forced tether jump with aerial side b. Although if she's at like 100%+ maybe you can go for fair and KO her, but this strategy is less reliable on big stages. IIRC you can grab Ivy right after it, but if not she definitely bounces high enough that you can just wait and see what she does. Maybe up smash after aerial side B would work, gotta test that.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

It seems as though Zelda doesn't have to do much to win against Ganon.

I have a really hard time spacing against foward air/tilt mashing. It seems to be longer/faster than Ganon's main approach tools.

Does anyone have any suggestions/tips on how to play this matchup?

Just a suggestion, try getting in quickly and forcing Zelda into the air, then approach from below. You can then read to see where she goes, if she teleports, it is a little more risky, but should still be readable, especially if there are platforms. If not, you can see if she'll go for the teleport, and go for that b-reversible down-b to try to get her during ending lag. Maybe a bit unreliable, but if you get it off right there's that opening for the killer combo. But yeah, stay below her, that should help somewhat.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Just a suggestion, try getting in quickly and forcing Zelda into the air, then approach from below. You can then read to see where she goes, if she teleports, it is a little more risky, but should still be readable, especially if there are platforms. If not, you can see if she'll go for the teleport, and go for that b-reversible down-b to try to get her during ending lag. Maybe a bit unreliable, but if you get it off right there's that opening for the killer combo. But yeah, stay below her, that should help somewhat.

Go to this thread. I dumped a lot of info on how to beat Zelda.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/

 

[Spralwers]

How do I fight zss? I feel like everything I do gets outprioritized by her whip and once she gets a hit in I cant escape

 

[CORY]

i don't think i've even seen this matchup on vids or stream, and dallas doesn't have a zss running around. i have no clue...

 

[Bazkip]

How do I fight zss? I feel like everything I do gets outprioritized by her whip and once she gets a hit in I cant escape

I think that's a MU that's better avoided, probably best to go a different character.

Did you get bodied by one at NSA2?

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Falcon still has really weak approach moves.

There is the knee, but I get your point.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

it was totally hyperbolic : p

but she's probably the worst matchup for ganon, currently. if ivy decides to not approach and just lame you out with projectiles and bair, it's really really really difficult to get near her

Hey, if an ivy goes for the bair, can a f-tilt angled upward hit her out of it before those vines hit you, or does it even cancel it?

 

[Yanoss1313]

Hey, if an ivy goes for the bair, can a f-tilt angled upward hit her out of it before those vines hit you, or does it even cancel it?

no, i'm pretty sure ivy's Bair comes out faster and will hit you before your hitbox is out.

Edit: Up-air or Bair may work though, havn't played many ivys

 

[Spralwers]

I think that's a MU that's better avoided, probably best to go a different character.

Did you get bodied by one at NSA2?

Yes... Yes I did. Although, I didn't realize it at the time of writing the post, the guy who beat me was super legit and he ended up going to grand finals. So even if he used any of his other characters that I'm used to fighting and can generally beat (Fox and Marth), he'd still probably 2 stock me.

I did find during the match up towards the end I was having some success with just non stop running away (lol) and sneaking in side Bs, bairs, and up airs. There's also a ZSS player who comes to our weeklies that I generally don't beat.

There is the knee, but I get your point.

Knee isn't really an approach move though, even in the Falcon Ganon match up in melee.

 

[CORY]

Hey, if an ivy goes for the bair, can a f-tilt angled upward hit her out of it before those vines hit you, or does it even cancel it?

it might, but you'd have to be pretty close, which means you made ivy mess up on spacing. it can't cancel it out (you're talking about clanking, right?) because you can't clank aerials, under normal circumstances (mk and zss can cause really weird clanks with some attacks; though, that might just be an auditory glitch that doesn't actually do the clank mechanic).

for the uair/bair, it's kind of the same deal. it can beat it, but ivy's bair has more range than those moves (fair might be comprable to her bair range? i think her bair is still slightly longer, but ganon's got some michael jordan half court dunk from space jam arms going on sometimes...).

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Thanks. Yeah, clanking is what I meant. Good comparison for Ganon's arms.
Forward air is my friend.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Knee isn't really an approach move though, even in the Falcon Ganon match up in melee.

I'm pretty sure it is, since it destroys a lot of projectiles, has a nice hitbox, and C. Falcon is crazy fast. Actually, what makes you say Falcon doesn't have many good approach moves? I always thought he was pretty good at approaching. I don't have much experience in upper-echelon competitive play, though, so I could be wrong.

 

[Spralwers]

I'm pretty sure it is, since it destroys a lot of projectiles, has a nice hitbox, and C. Falcon is crazy fast. Actually, what makes you say Falcon doesn't have many good approach moves? I always thought he was pretty good at approaching. I don't have much experience in upper-echelon competitive play, though, so I could be wrong.

If your opponent is in a position where they shield and you sweet spot the knee, then yeah it can work as an approach, you'll pretty much get a free grab right after. But that means they've messed up in their neutral game anyway.

Falcon's aerials have pretty bad range (for approaching) and his ground game is terrible. The knee in and of itself is a slow move with terrible range and a Ganondorf (even in melee) can just ftilt him out of it. Falcon relies on a lot of psychological pressure through his movement. Trust me on this one, I've talked with Hax about Falcon's approach and against higher tier characters with a strong neutral game, and he agrees that Falcon relies too much on going in only when his opponent leaves a weakness. Falcon is actually worse off in this game than melee in the current state of the meta. So just like Ganondorf, it's gonna take a really high level player dedicated to learning him with the new PM stuff to unlock his actual potential.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Okay, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying that.