Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[Electric Tuba]

That's his "parry", right? I hate that term, but that's what the Yoshis call the first couple frames of the shield when they're grab invincible.

 

[teluoborg]

Well the thing is : in melee Yoshi is not grab immune during his parry. And in Melee the invincibility-to-everything-but-grabs lasts for 6 seconds. That's HUGE, but now give it grab immunity and the possibility to jump cancel the shield and not just the parrying and boom.

Note : I haven't actually checked the frame data on PM Yoshi so might be over reacting due to my hypernatremy.

 

[CORY]

pkt2 is invincible for 8 frames, once ness is struck. he moves REALLY FAR, though, so he covers a lot of distance in those 8 frames. he also has a little burst around him when he starts pkt, so that can catch you and get you gimped if you try to gimp ness by eating the thunder. your best bet is to make him start out far away, preferably lower so you can catch him after the invuln period of pkt2, but at a point where he can't use his improved aerial drifting in special fall.

in general, ness owns ganon. we're just too big and immobile to get away from his pkfire easily. then, if you get hit (which is hard not to do...) you're big so sdi-ing out isn't simple, either. the trick that some characters can use to deal with pkfire by dashing/burst mobility-ing underneath him on a full jump to go for an aerial/usmash isn't so great for ganon, just due to how hard it is to exist in that zone.

your best bet is probably just look for really hard reads on his approaches, and try to stay above him so you don't need to fear pkfire as much, but then you're in the air against ness ;x

 

[Spralwers]

I actually asked Eli about his opinion on the Ness match up, and he said to just powershield pk fire. I actually did get a few good powershields on PK fire during my Ness games, I was just too nervous to center my strategy around that. Also keep in mind that if you get hit by PK fire, you can still powershield the pillar (there's enough of a delay between each hit to CC one hit, then shield the next) and thus cause Ness to get hit by it if he goes in.

I've recently resorted to disabling light pressing on one of my shield buttons so I can power shield. It's so much easier. PK fire is a projectile that you can definitely power shield on reaction, but you might need to spend a bit of time getting used to the trajectory and how fast it moves when it comes out.

 

[Electric Tuba]

One last thing about PK fire from me; if you can powershield it consistently it's really demoralizing as a Ness player to have Ganon of all characters denying one of our easiest and safest neutral options/combo starters.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Can we talk about the Ness matchup a little? One of my regular training buddies mains Ness and even though I'm far more technical than him we seem to go about even. He doesn't use very much Ness tech at all (just now learning to djc and wavebounce PK Fire) but even so PK Fire seems to be like the bane of Ganon. I have to space and approach very carefully because if I get hit or caught in shield by PK Fire he can normally get a grab to tech chase out of it. Even after practicing smash DI-ing out of the fire, getting hit by it often leads to either a grab, another PK Fire, or a homerun bat. At higher percents, he can just PK Fire me and backthrow for kill. Aside from "Don't get hit," are there any tactics I can use against him? I tend to take him to a lot of platformed stages with close blastzones so that I can move better and KO him earlier, but on stages like Smashville and FD he gives me a hell of a time.

From what I can tell, Ganon does have a few things going for him. Trading with Ness' PK Rocket/PK Thunder 2 is dangerous, but Ganon is able to punish Ness hard if he comes in too close to the stage. Frequently, Ness recovers close and then Magnet stalls before rocketing back to the stage. If he spaces this incorrectly, you can just jump out and either Fair, Bair, or reverse U-air for the kill. If you're doing this you do need to make sure that Ness doesn't have a jump left. If he does, he'll likely just jump over you and D-air you to your doom. Even though this move is a meteor it comes out shockingly fast, and even if you do cancel it Ness might be able to hit you with a PK Fire while you're off stage or on ledge, which is a terrible position for Ganon. Both characters seem to edge-guard each other pretty well, actually. The other thing to look out for if you're recovering as Ganon is Ness hanging a yo-yo over the edge to catch you when you try to sweetspot. If you can anticipate this its rare that he'll be able to gimp you to death with it, but if you don't expect it you can get bopped pretty quickly.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm just not executing it correctly, but I can't seem to chaingrab Ness for ****.

That's most of what I've seen from playing my friend in this matchup, but again we're both pretty scrub-tier right now so I'm not sure how much of this is relevant. I'm hoping that the Ganon mains out of Texas might have some advice considering that Awestin is in that region?

PK Fire is way easier to deal with once you start smash DI'ing down and buffering a roll. A lot of Ness mains use PK fire as a crutch at lower levels of play and will instinctively go for the grab once they see it hit.

You can't chaingrab Ness, don't really try it. At 0% you can get one regrab off of down throw, but none of the ones after that will guarantee a regrab. You can usually connect with both hits of nair off of down throw at low percents, with the nair doing a nice 20 something percent if you land both hits and it sets up combos pretty well too

 

[Bazkip]

in general, ness owns ganon. we're just too big and immobile to get away from his pkfire easily. then, if you get hit (which is hard not to do...) you're big so sdi-ing out isn't simple, either. the trick that some characters can use to deal with pkfire by dashing/burst mobility-ing underneath him on a full jump to go for an aerial/usmash isn't so great for ganon, just due to how hard it is to exist in that zone.

Wait
Could a dacus be used to pre-emptively punish PK fire?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Probably not if they sh pk fire, but if they're throwing from platforms like battlefield?

That would be ballin once then never work again

 

[CORY]

it might, but you would only really be able to connect with the tip of your foot, so the hitbox coverage is tiny. you'd have to be super precise.

however, now that i think about it, dacus (well, usmash) recovers fairly quickly, so you might be able to just use to get underneath ness, as opposed to in the line of pkfire...

 

[Electric Tuba]

Yeah, but ness can just fast fall or land on a platform to punish pretty easily if you miss. :/

 

[whoknowswhat]

What is the MU with Mewtwo? I honestly don't know what I should be doing other than closing the distance for camping.

 

[teluoborg]

Never forget teleport. You might want to close the distance but if that's your main plan then M2 can simply tp out of pressure and/or put you in a bad position and/or punish you for things that other character can't punish.

No what you want to do is position yourself where his tp will reach behind you, stay there and make him guess. If he's too trigger happy with tp you can just Ftilt/Bair/Uair him on reaction and Fair/wizkick if you get a read.

Once you learn how to deal with tp the rest is just a fairly even matchup. Sure, M2 can combo you all day if he gets you in the air but on the other hand he has no disjoint on his moves so you can trade with him most of the time and even grab armor some of his moves with side B. In this matchup it's actually not that dumb to punch thin air seeing as his Uair, Bair and Utilt expand his hurtbox by a lot.

Also this needs confirmation but iirc if Mewtwo techs your flame choke away then wizkick won't hit him.

TL;DR ; Mewtwo relies a lot around his teleport gimmick. Learn to respect the tp zone as you would learn to not shield Ganon's flame choke and the matchup will be a lot easier. It's just zoning really.

 

[CORY]

i remember mewtwo's tech rolls being way too long to punish, as well : /

otherwise, i've got no ideas. haven't played a solid mewtwo main yet, and most of my mewtwo experience ends up being on fd, anyway, which just skews that matchup a lot towards mewtwo.

 

[Electric Tuba]

What stages do you guys like against m2? I'm hesitant to go to small stages because of his bairs ability to carry us off the stage, even though little stages are usually good for Ganon.

 

[Bazkip]

but on the other hand he has no disjoint on his moves

His tail is disjointed

 

[Scuba Steve]

His tail is disjointed

Not completely, but a LARGE portion of his tail doesn't have a hurtbox. It still outranges damn near everything, though

 

[Bazkip]

Not completely, but a LARGE portion of his tail doesn't have a hurtbox. It still outranges damn near everything, though

Far more disjointed than it should be. If it's going to have disjoints it should only be the tip so it requires proper spacing. Currently even spacing as bad as attempting to park a Hummer in between two Smart cars parked in the same space will leave you no need to worry about trading. That should hopefully be changed, along with some other stuff.

So basically, the current matchup with Mewtwo is to stall untill 3.5 comes out.

 

[teluoborg]

I know Bair has a part of his tail invincible, but I also know that I've punched and stomped some tails, and I can assure you Mewtwo felt it.

And I don't feel like the matchup is that bad.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Mewtwo is a pain because his Utilt and Ftilt can either prioritize over Ganon's ground moves, or clash with them. Don't get me started on Mewtwo's air game compared to Dorf as well. Mewtwo is also too floaty to chaingrab effectively, all the while Dorf is potential combo food for Mewtwo. That said, Ganondorf can give Mewtwo a bit of a hard time with Uair should Mewtwo find himself above Dorf, and Wizard's Foot is a decent answer to some of Mewtwo's ground moves.

The way I deal with Mewtwo is to keep close to him so he has little reason to spam a projectile, but also just far enough to stay out of his tail's range and then punish accordingly with a grab, Wizard's Foot, Flame Choke (aerial), or even a quick attack, like Ftilt, jab, Dtilt, etc.. Probably goes without saying, but don't attempt to edge guard a Mewtwo either; if you want to KO him, do so with a well timed smash attack, Stomp, or a Dthrow to Fair/Bair.

 

[steelguttey]

Spoiler: Ganondorf

Good Stages:

Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 85%

Matchup Ratio: 4-6

Tips:

oh god Ganon

This matchup is actually hard for me because it makes me think about the game instead of doing braindead grab combos lol

Ganon can be combo'd into oblivion, but as it is with most characters fighting Ganon, any hit will rack up a bunch of damage. Pretty sure his fair outranges Oli's everything (except side-b), too.

The juggles are real though. Ganon's got stomps, but he's combo-food.

Ganondorf is actually easy though. He's slow, has bad recovery, and is combo fodder for Olimar.

Hit him off stage and his stock is gone. He's just a slow Captain Falcon after all.

Yeah, you have to respect him still. He is strong, and you will get bopped if you're careless.

If you're sort of far away from him, he literally has like 3 options to approach you. Dash-Attack, Down-B, and SH > F-Air. All of which are fairly easy to see coming. Olimar can stuff two of these, and the other one is so easy to see coming, you can just get out of the way and punish him.

If he forces you offstage be careful of his late UAir hitbox that semi spikes you. I'd recommend keeping your distance, forcing him to approach and stuffing him. From there he is combo fodder and if you force him offstage a well spaced FAir or BAir should finish him.

Additionally (correct me if I'm wrong) but aren't White Pikmin immune to darkness/poison damage? If that's the case that's pretty hilarious. Might be me going insane though.

heres the ganon vs olimar matchup friends.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

So, gettin' back into brawl and P:M

Anything for sure i should know about regarding M2 or Doc Mario MUs?

 

[Bazkip]

The ditto is the hardest matchup, I keep on trying to go for dumb, fancy things and end up killing myself ;_;

 

[aznasazin11]

Can I get some help with the Lucario mu? What can I do to avoid the rush down. It's probably my DI, but I get 0-deathed quite frequently against a good Lucario. It's not even the projectile spam, I literally can't get out of a combo once he hits me once.

 

[CORY]

ummm... what's helped me against one of our local lucarios is ccing more often (i forget ganon's heavy way too much...) and using the cc-jab trick, then sdi combined with buffered rolls.

cc-jab trick is holding down, then pushing back to right below the horizontal. this lets you do a jab out of a crouch. gives ganon a pretty nice hit out of cc, which he honestly lacks (dtilt's ok, but still a bit slow. dsmash and wizkick are very slow, so only useful for certain counterhits).

sdi would basically just be rolling your cstick from horizontal to about midway up, then midway down repeatedly, up and down. this gives you maximum (for non-tas purposes) sdi inputs away from lucario and you can still hold analog down for cc (or analog up-down/up-away for di). then, if you're not aiming to go airborne to di out, you can hold shield and with the sdi inputs you'll basically be buffering a roll.

you'll have to get used to switching up the roll directions, though. don't always just roll away or behind, because lucario's downb is basically made to beat that kind of stuff ;x

 

[Claire Diviner]

I think one of the more frustrating MUs for Ganondorf is Ivysaur and its godawfully annoying hitboxes, especially its Bair. Every time I play against it, I have to wait for that one moment where it makes a mistake and then go for as hard a punish as I can humanly muster. Any ideas?

 

[TheChocolateLava]

I think one of the more frustrating MUs for Ganondorf is Ivysaur and its godawfully annoying hitboxes, especially its Bair. Every time I play against it, I have to wait for that one moment where it makes a mistake and then go for as hard a punish as I can humanly muster. Any ideas?

I thought it was a bad matchup, but Ivy mains I've talked to (not many) say ganon wins it easy. I'm not sure. You can negate their projectiles pretty easily because of the low damage, and I've been told you have the damage to go through bair? Can someone clarify this?

 

[Claire Diviner]

I thought it was a bad matchup, but Ivy mains I've talked to (not many) say ganon wins it easy. I'm not sure. You can negate their projectiles pretty easily because of the low damage, and I've been told you have the damage to go through bair? Can someone clarify this?

Ivysaur mains wouldn't even need their projectiles. The vines are the things that make the MU a pain... At least for me.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Ivy - Ganon is definitely in Ivy's favor. Razor leaf is hard to deal with because of it's 'priority' and bair is problematic because of its range. As far as I know Ivy can also edgeguard us relatively easily.

It's not impossible, sure, and we definitely have it better than bowser, but... it's still not good.

 

[| Kailex |]

Youll be really lucky if you get an aerial flame choke, youd be able to go for a grab, d-throw into an aerial attack.

Thats just the case with floaties

 

[teluoborg]

You better go with Dthrow>Usmash on Ivy tho.

And yeah Bair is a royal pain, especially offstage.

 

[| Kailex |]

Problem is that it isnt guaranteed, since they can DI away from it

 

[teluoborg]

Yes they can, but when they don't.... HUAH

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Is Ivy floaty enough that you can f-throw to DACUS? I know that works on like, Peach and Jiggs, but idk where Ivy's weight falls in that range.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Did I hear Ivysaur? Are there others that share in my pain?

All I can advice is space yourself out, and punish. Don't do stupid wizard foots, don't try and approach with fair because that's what they want.

When they try and tether recover, you can soft spike em with a reverse Uair. Works pretty well and they get gimped but each Ivy has different timing.

As for neutral ...

(intended sarcasm)
seriously like ... we can't do a thing except be slippery and play like a boss. High level Ivysaurs don't mess around and will wall us out. So my suggestion. Get the first stock off, then camp the **** AWAY FROM THEM

 

[teluoborg]

All I know against Ivy is that you should stay on the ground because you have aboslutely 0 options to deal with Bair when in the air. So yeah shield, roll away and wait for the good spacing that will allow you to connect a Uair or Ftilt.

 

[RelaxAlax]

So what stage would be favorable?

Personally, I'd say everything has a downside.

FD is big, so if you get Ivy in the air, it'll help create follow ups without the worry of them escaping. And FD is big enough for you to camp out projectiles. Problem is, well, you could be combo'd into the air too, and that'll be great for (up?) throw to Up+B and Solar Beam.

Battlefield on the other hand has platforms, but I have found (I always take them there) it isn't that great bc Ivy can escape your stuff with platforms. It's small enough for you to be pushed offstage with their projectiles. Maybe stay on top platform?

PS2 is alright, the platforms help and you have alot of space to work with. Not the best but I'd say its better than a smaller stage.

Smashville, imho, is Ganons best neutral stage. Platform helps recover and slow the pace down at your discretion, you can get quick kills off the sides if you plan it right, and the platform can help on approaches. Only thing is, I've seen Ivys heal with the balloon xD so if you can accept that (or pop it) I'd take her here first match.

Idk about Dreamland either. You get platforms and it's big, but it'll be harder to kill Ivy. Usually Ganon kills off the sides so that isn't an issue, so I'd say this stage would be good in theory. If you can land the backwards hit of Uair while Ivy recovers it puts her in a place where she cant dair stall and is too far for Up+B. This is tough to time after Ivys second jump or dair stalls but once you learn the range of Up+B i'm sure it's a simple read.

I'd make it so you can get at least Smashville as one of your last stages to strikes for first match as well as either PS2 or Dreamland. If you get to pick, go to Smashville if you're unsure, just pop dat balloon but I'd wager Dreamland would be a good stage too, just be in for a battle of patience.

If you win, ban smaller stages. Ivy will get you trapped in a hard place so if you can help it, I'd say stay away from Yoshi's story,(although Randall messes with tethers so, your discretion) FoD, and Green Hill. Also, Lylat. Tether characters succeed here more than they know, while Ganon needs to sweetspot or over do it. Usually nobody goes here, but I would play it safe if theyre a good player.

If you lose, try and pick a big stage with platforms. I'd try to counterpick Smashville to be safe, Maybe even Skyworld? I hardly go there, but look at it, it has a good platform layout for us and big blastzones. If Ivy tries to go for Solar Beam or Up+B, we could land on those platforms. But what do I know.

Thats my thoughts on the dilemma. No matter where you go, it'll suck ass lol. I've played different Ivysaurs, but the smart ones will seal you out with razor leaf, the seed and bair, others will go aggro which is equally unpleasant. What do you guys think the best stages are?

 

[Bazkip]

Always ban Yoshi's Island against Ivy, so many free heals + solarbeam charge off the Shy Guys. Hopefully those get removed in 3.5, it's dumb.

Skyworld's platform layout is terrible for Ganon imo. The side platforms are kinda just...out there, way off centre, can't really get much utility off them (except for wavelanding offstage for edgeguards I suppose). As a result the top platform is also too inaccessible for it to be of much use to us. I also have a hard time wavelanding on those platforms cause they're kinda ambiguous...that's led to more than a few SDs.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Skyworld's platform layout is terrible for Ganon imo. The side platforms are kinda just...out there, way off centre, can't really get much utility off them (except for wavelanding offstage for edgeguards I suppose). As a result the top platform is also too inaccessible for it to be of much use to us. I also have a hard time wavelanding on those platforms cause they're kinda ambiguous...that's led to more than a few SDs.

What? Skyworld is totes good.

It can be awkward at times, but I think it's actually a phenomenal stage for Ganon in certain match-ups. A nice flat stage with a bit of platform is a god send against anyone you can chain grab to death (assuming SV, GHZ, and FD are banned), as well as Samus and Charizard in particular.

Skyworld is an amazing stage against Samus because it isn't very large, and the platforms are set up in such a way that it reduces her missile output by quite a margin. The stage helps against Charizard as well, due to mitigating his combo game by a decent margin and because falling nairs on short platforms are a ***** to deal with. Keep in mind that he has that busted up-throw that can hit off the top of Skyworld, so it's not a perfect pick, exactly, but it's probably the best Charizard counter-pick assuming you don't have a more traditional flat stage to take him to.

I swear, everyone here sees a stage with out a platform on each side and automatically writes it off as unplayable.

 

[aznasazin11]

Idk how I feel about skyworld, just really janky. I think that favors IVY TBH

 

[RelaxAlax]

Never usually try Skyworld, but I think the outer platforms help if you need to recover. And its wide enough so you got space to work with in this matchup. It forces Ivy to approach, not you.

The rest is up to you ... and trust me, those nairs arent much easier.